Subj : Re: SHIELD PLUS
To   : Moondog
From : Gamgee
Date : Sun Oct 31 2021 09:40 pm

-=> Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

 >  Mo> Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time
 >  Mo> with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr.  The weight,

 > I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
 > done that.  Your mileage may vary.
>
 >  Mo> feel and handliing are the same.  The recoil is only different.
 >  Mo> Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade,
 >  Mo> and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo.  I can
 >  Mo> also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
 >  Mo> the same magazines as the 40.  9mm is a cheaper alternative to
 >  Mo> shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
 >  Mo> the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and
 >  Mo> barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40
 >  Mo> compact.
 >
 > Uh-huh.  How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the
 > cost of that barrel and magazine(s)?  I'm guessing the number is in the
 > thousands.  Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be
 > shooting in a real life situation?  That way you're not surprised by the
 > extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that count.
 >
 > You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.

 Mo> Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was
 Mo> $85.  A Storm Lake barrel costs $179.  In good times when a box
 Mo> of 50 rounds of 9mm was right around $10-12, either price isn't
 Mo> that bad for allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular
 Mo> platform.

None of that answers the question that I asked.  If you spend $100 on a 
barrel, and the 9 ammo is $2/box cheaper than the 40 ammo, then you'd 
need to shoot 50 boxes (2500 rounds) of ammo to break even on the cost.  
So I ask again.... what's the point?

 Mo> Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new.
 Mo> Uncommon, maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get
 Mo> the feel of the gun and the trigger pull without seeing the
 Mo> effects of pulling the trigger.

You're contradicting yourself.  You *DON'T* get the feel of the gun if 
you don't include the effects of pulling the trigger.  The different 
recoil between calibers makes it handle differently.  Getting back on 
aim for the follow up shot is different.  There are other differences 
too.  How could it *POSSIBLY* be better to train with one ammo/caliber, 
and then actually use the gun in a real, stressful, life-or-death 
situation with a different caliber?

Just doesn't make any sense.

 Mo>  I saw one dry fire simulator
 Mo> that involves a barrel insert that connects to your phne via
 Mo> bluetooth, and it detects movements such as jerking the trigger
 Mo> through the use of motion sensors.  The display on your phone
 Mo> will show you a graph of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the
 Mo> trigger.

Garbage/gimmick/toys.  I'd prefer to detect problems by observing where 
my bullet strikes the target in a real world environment, and make 
adjustments as needed based on what is ACTUALLY happening, not what some 
"app" is telling me.  See above re: doesn't make any sense.  There's a 
valuable saying in the military:  "Train like you fight".

 Mo> Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training
 Mo> your eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with
 Mo> the least amount of wasted steps.

Yep, agreed.  So (again), why train your muscles to react to a different 
feel/recoil that what you're gonna want those muscles to do when your 
life might depend on it?  Honestly I can't see how anyone could see this 
any other way.



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