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1 # Introduction
2
3 This interview was held on 2018-08-05 and published on 2018-08-08 in the
4 absmagazin (http://absmagazin.de). Here is the German website of the
5 interview:
6
7 http://absmagazin.de/Members/radio/sendung/abs180808.mp3
8
9 Please see the corrigenda at the end.
10
11 Please see the links list for all references.
12
13 # Interview Transcription from German
14
15 [intro music]
16
17 Michael(M): Here's the ABS Magazin - "Arbeit, Bildung und Soziales"
18 - Your magazine about social policies here on radio x the Frankfurt
19 citizen radio.
20
21 Nice to have you all here! Thanks for listening! We have got a new episode
22 for you, exciting things from the realm of communication technology.
23 We want to talk specifically about the internet... No, we do not want to
24 talk about the internet, neither do we want to talk about the dark net
25 today, but something even more obscure: Today will be about 'gopher space'.
26
27 'Gopher' is a protocol, which has been introduced a bit earlier than
28 the world wide web. But it has faded a bit into obscurity. A protocol,
29 which might have to be said, is the way how computers talk to each
30 other, how they exchange their data. You may have heard about the HTTP
31 protocol. You are using this when typing an URL into your browser. Or
32 there is a protocol handling the exchange of E-Mails. And there's the
33 'gopher' protocol. Which is interesting in particular as it is simple
34 and similar to the web, such as: Gopher server provide text and provide
35 links. What they do not provide are pictures, additional features,
36 JavaScript or other complicated things.
37
38 This restriction providing text and links does also mean, that you can
39 work very fast with it, pages do load super fast. And there are people
40 saying that the web is too bloated, there's too much advertising, to
41 much nick-nack. It is getting more and more difficult to get to the real
42 information on a site. Under these circumstance it is to the point to
43 have a closer look at the gopher protocol.
44
45 We have talked to someone, who's knowledgeable in this field. There
46 is a group of people who will hold a conference soon, to discuss the
47 future of the gopher protocol and how to build a real, interesting,
48 alternative to the world wide web. But now we will have a little bit
49 of music: Mrs. Beep with 'The spring is coming' a little bit of 8 bit
50 music. After that we will talk with Christoph Lohmann, who will tell us
51 something about the gopher protocol.
52
53 [...music cut out...]
54
55
56 Yes, now we have Christoph here. He is a bit of a computer nerd, a
57 hobbyist, who is tinkering with software, hardware, programming and
58 protocols -- everything that's computer related and how they communicate.
59
60 M: Hello Christoph!
61
62 Christoph(C): Greetings Michael, here's Christoph!
63
64 M: I have read that you are running a project called 'bitreich'. This
65 project is using some protocols that aren't known widely. But what's
66 this project about?
67
68 C: bitreich's goal is to create simple software. This includes simple
69 protocols like gopher. Simple principles, software that's fun to use. Our
70 goals are stated on the website or better the gopher hole.
71
72 M: Yes...
73
74 C: There are.. Well, we wanted to talk about gopher. It's about replacing
75 big complex things with simple stuff which you can even implement yourself.
76
77 M: Gopher does translate as 'Maulwurf' (German) right?
78
79 C: Yes it does[1], it is derived from the gopher mascot of the MIT[2],
80 a university in the US. Also it is a pun on 'to go for'.
81
82 M: This protocol has existed for quite a long time now, probably earlier
83 than the world wide web?
84
85 C: It has been developed in 1991, where the goal has been to connect
86 different databases at MIT with a hierarchical protocol. It has been
87 surpassed by the web sadly, which has been picked up faster, to put
88 it simply.
89
90 M: How do the web and gopher differ?
91
92 C: One has to differentiate between the data transport and display. In
93 the web there's HTTP for transport, then HTML for displaying the web
94 page in my browser. In gopher I have one protocol that already defines
95 simple menus. I know exactly that an item is a link and what will happen,
96 when I click on it. They are already defined in the protocol. Which
97 means the structure is more strict. As opposed to the web.
98
99 M: So like, when I am on a website often I have to relearn the navigation
100 and where to find things...
101
102 C: That's another issue on the web. There are even languages and
103 mechanisms, that can hide this from you. And a 'link' nowadays does not
104 mean 'go to this website' anymore. That's part of the problem. In gopher
105 you have this simplified, there's a link pointing to somewhere and I
106 just follow that. On the end of the link there may be another menu and
107 so on forming a tree of information for me to browse.
108
109 M: If I understood you correctly, the display of data in gopher is mostly
110 text based?
111
112 C: That's how it has been defined, yes. It's all about text. Images
113 have been added to it, but back in the days there have been all these
114 terminals with these old screens only capable of displaying text. But
115 it's about text, it's about a simple way to exchange information. And
116 that's pure text.
117
118 M: Or two people talk to each other, they also can exchange ideas or
119 information that way.
120
121 C: Yeah, text is even more simple. If you take this further, there's for
122 example Linux, which listeners may have heard about. That's about how I
123 can do text processing on the command line. With images you'll have to
124 deal with more complex algorithms and that's not as easy to use.
125
126 M: Hearing all this I think this is also about using simple programs
127 that use less resources? If I transfer a text file it is probably much
128 smaller than an Image or a video file.
129
130 C: Yes, that's right. I can tell a story where I have needed this
131 badly: In Bhutan in south Asia, north of India, where it's all about
132 the happiness of people, not like here… They have got a GSM Network
133 only. There has been a blackout and there has been only this slow data
134 network. But I have successfully retrieved my needed information via
135 gopher. It does not need a lot of resources.
136
137 M: So it is a protocol that's interesting for areas that are less
138 developed or where the aren't so many resources available?
139
140 C: Yes, gopher saves resources, but over all, since the web's problem is
141 illustrated with YouTube: Someone reads a text in a video which is served
142 in HD and viewed on a 4k monitor. I could have sent out the text instead!
143
144 M: So the approach is this: Here is a protocol and programs, allowing to
145 transfer information efficiently and fast. Sometimes as much information
146 as in a read out video. Is this a new trend?
147
148 C: Gopher has been dormant for a long time, since the web has gotten
149 popular. The current developments are that smart phones are getting
150 more powerful with more CPU cores on one hand but the systems get
151 slower more and more on the other hand. This prompted a lot of people
152 to think about alternatives. Also among experts who know about the web's
153 complexity. Gopher is a part of this alternative.
154
155 M: So there's a movement that strives for less complexity and resource
156 usage?
157
158 C: Yes, it's about the internet, not only the web. There's a lot more
159 besides the web. Bitreich is the part where software shall become simpler,
160 since that's all connected.
161
162 M: In your bitreich software development you write programs, that you
163 use for yourself or because they are so simple to use them yourself...?
164
165 C: It's about the command line in bitreich, for experienced users. The
166 graphical user interfaces need a lot of resources. Gopher is the part
167 for the end user. For developers it's about having nice command line
168 tools that are fun to use. That's our goal. And that's achievable through
169 simplicity only.
170
171 M: Are modern tools too complicated with their graphical interfaces? Is
172 that really taking out the fun?
173
174 C: Well, in the old days you'd have opened a text editor, which used up
175 200 kilobytes of RAM. Today when you open up an editor it will load a
176 browser in the background, this web browser will load JavaScript and
177 this all uses up to several gigabytes of your RAM. And then this all
178 has to display your source file. That's the current state of affairs!
179
180 M: When you say you want to find new ways with bitreich project, to use
181 less resources. Does it work? What are your experiences? Is it really
182 more fun than viewing smooth videos on YouTube?
183
184 C: I can see that I won't burn my upper legs when using gopher
185 as opposed to viewing a website, where my laptop fan goes on and
186 everything. Currently there are about 300 gopher servers, so we are
187 a small fraction on the net. The whole web currently uses ~2% of the
188 global electricity, sometimes even more…
189
190 M: But one needs to have a bit of a background to use all this? If I
191 imagine how easy it is today for average smartphone user to surf the
192 web or go into a chat with other people exchanging text messages. You
193 can visit an app store and will find ready made software. One click I'll
194 get it installed. If I want to use gopher that's not so easy is it? Or
195 a program to chat with others?
196
197 C: There are different layers here. First you start by visiting
198 gopherproject.org and if you are not using a gopher client you will
199 be redirected to a 'web to gopher converter'. You'll be able to browse
200 gopher sites in your web browser. And that's the entry point where you
201 will get to further gates.
202
203 M: So it's a gateway that I can use with a normal browser that does not
204 speak gopher and still be able to browse gopher sites?
205
206 C: There are also plugins for web browsers, at least Firefox and
207 chromium. One of the problems is that currently there has been a change
208 in plugins for these so there might be incompatibilities. There are
209 many more clients listed on gopher project.org.
210
211 M: What about chat? I know there was a protocol that has been in use a
212 lot: IRC - Internet relay chat. That's not as popular today is it?
213
214 C: It is popular among software developers, because every open source
215 project has their own channel. That's the easiest way to talk to
216 developers and users. There are web clients, mobile clients, command
217 line clients. IRC is implemented almost everywhere.
218
219 M: That's capable of doing the things you can do with a messenger on
220 the smartphone?
221
222 C: It could but does not want to?
223
224 M: Really?
225
226 C: I do have the possibility to share, say a video, in whatsapp or
227 images. You do not want this on IRC, it is a simple protocol. It's about
228 sharing text. If I would add media, it would be impossible for hobbyists
229 to run their own servers. You'd need more infrastructure on the size of
230 Facebook for example…
231
232 M: You have said that 'hobbyists wouldn't be able to run their own
233 servers'. Does that mean it is easy to set up?
234
235 C: There are several possibilities: There's Debian for example, a well
236 known Linux distribution, there are simple tutorials and instructions
237 on how to set this up. A server has a monthly cost of about 3 EUR/month,
238 which will be able to run a IRC server.
239
240 M: And that's easy to get running?
241
242 C: The server side is a bit more complicated, the client access is
243 really easy.
244
245 M: What other protocols are there, that follow this same idea of
246 preserving bandwidth and resources while being comparable replacements?
247
248 C: Before the web there have been many other protocols already, based
249 on the TCP/IP protocol. On there are ~65000 different ports that can be
250 used. Today we send all over one or two ports for HTTP and encrypted
251 HTTPS. There are many more protocols. For example 'dict': A protocol
252 to query dictionary servers. You send a request 'I'd like to know the
253 definition of this word' to the server and get back the definition of
254 the requested word as text.
255
256 M: Is this still in use? How would I use this today?
257
258 C: There is dict.org which maintains the protocol. Bitreich has its
259 own dictionary server for the urban dictionary which contains funny
260 definitions of words. It's just another service, not inherently difficult.
261
262 M: What other protocols are interesting for you?
263
264 C: There's newsgroups, but the problem with them is spam. There's
265 no efficient spam filtering method for newsgroups which is why they
266 died. They have survived as a medium to exchange binary data. Which
267 is why they are blocked in a lot of places due to them being used for
268 piracy. And the servers don't scale since they all need to keep track
269 of all the data on the network…
270
271 Then there's the Tor protocol…
272
273 M: Tor has also been around for a while. There have been spectacular
274 events surrounding the Tor protocol. It's about anonymity right?
275
276 C: Yes it is about anonymity. Today we know about the spy agencies
277 through Snowden and them surveilling all the routers in Frankfurt and
278 elsewhere. Which means they know where a data packet originates and
279 ends. Tor packages data in a way that one cannot see the way the a packet
280 is traveling. But the problem with Tor and the web is that there is a
281 lot of meta data in a web browser. This can be used to identify users. This
282 is where gopher can help.
283
284 M: So Tor is a method to hide your identity and what websites you are
285 visiting. When you say that there is too much meta data in a browser,
286 then this means: Information about the browser's config, installed fonts,
287 size of available RAM etc. Taken together all this information makes
288 a user's device unique as there are maybe only ~1000 people having the
289 same configuration. That's how one can identify users right?
290
291 C: Yes, that's how it works. Gopher can help here because there's a
292 defined amount of meta data: zero. With Tor there are a couple of things
293 one has to be aware of: I can leave the Tor network to visit a service
294 outside or I can access a service inside the Tor network. If I stay
295 completely inside the Tor network, there's no way for spy agencies to
296 find the 'end trail' of my packets. That's total anonymity. If I use this
297 to access the Facebook hidden service and I login with my credentials
298 I identify myself, so that's pointless. But on gopher there's no way
299 to login...
300
301 M: If you use Tor and you login somewhere then your identity isn't hidden
302 anymore of course…
303
304 C: That's a problem for inexperienced users. They download the
305 Tor-Browser, want to share their secrets about their regime. If I just
306 hand them a tor browser, it has certain metadata which spy agencies have
307 special filters for. So they can be found easily. Which means all the
308 basic layers have to be designed securely that the average whistle blower
309 will not get in trouble.
310
311 M: There have been different attempts at preserving privacy and not
312 handing over data to big companies, by not taking part in one of the big
313 networks. Are there alternatives to them? As opposed to using Facebook
314 & Co.
315
316 C: There's GNU Social for example or mastodon. If I go to Facebook all
317 data goes in and I get nothing out again. But if I use one of these
318 (slightly more complex) protocols on my home server I can exchange
319 messages with my friend in France, like: 'He has shared this picture or
320 text message to the group'. That's decentralization.
321
322 M: So there's no central data center holding all information, but many
323 servers holding on to what they need to know only.
324
325 C: The Facebook data scandal happened at the right time. There you
326 noticed that there's political resistance. So Facebook, Microsoft and
327 others started a project to exchange and export data. But so far Facebook
328 hasn't delivered.
329
330 M: With export you mean exporting user data?
331
332 C: I am referring to my timeline and all this.
333
334 M: Are there many people using GNU Social or mastodon? Or is this a
335 niche for specialists and nerds that care more about their privacy?
336
337 C: It's really easy to use: enter 'gnu.social' in a web browser and
338 you will get redirected to a server instance. There are many of them
339 and you choose the one where all your friends are already in the best
340 case. You sign up there and then you will use this server to post into
341 the network. It's all usable within the browser and it looks a lot
342 like Facebook.
343
344 M: We have talked about software and how to install it. You need to have
345 some background knowledge for using a command line as it is just a window
346 with text, you enter text commands etc. What do you think about people
347 getting into this? Does this have the potential to being used by a lot
348 of people or even becoming mainstream? Can this work? Or is this too
349 unwieldy and slow and complex for them?
350
351 C: Let's look at the argument someone makes when switching from windows
352 to Linux: But there's only a command line! But if I take interest in
353 my device then I'll learn how to use it. Back in the days I could fix
354 a radio myself. Today I don't know what this funny device is doing…
355
356 M: Yes?
357
358 C: That's the point. It's about having fun with computers. If you regain
359 that you'll learn how it operates and you'll dig deeper. And you will
360 be able to modify it yourself.
361
362 M: On the other hand a modern radio or computer does have a lot
363 more features than a cathode tube radio, like searching for stations
364 automatically, data transfer and offering a combination of different
365 sources (analog radio, digital radio, internet streams). That's way easier
366 than fiddling with the station knob yourself until you are listening to
367 the station you want.
368
369 C: I want to make a counter proposal: The problem with this is that you'll
370 have to buy a new device every year a new protocol is established. But
371 there are also things like the Raspberry Pi that's running Linux and you
372 can build your peripherals around that. If you want you can exchange
373 that for something with more computing power later. It's all about
374 modularity and wasting less. For computers and smartphones we do see
375 this developments towards open source hardware. It will take very long
376 due to vendors actively blocking these efforts.
377
378 M: Simple usage also enables more people to use this technology. For
379 example a navigation service on my smartphone is more comfortable than
380 carrying around paper maps.
381
382 C: That's why we talk about this. People need to know that the price
383 for all this comfort is being under total surveillance. And the
384 machine controls me. That's why one needs to know how the machine
385 works. Otherwise this will all be like magic and magic is never a good
386 thing. We need more science.
387
388 M: I'd like to come back to the navigation example: I've got a smartphone
389 with an app and can accurately see where I am. That's a service I'd like
390 to use, but I don't want to wade through complex software and install
391 text only interfaces. That's too much for most people I think?
392
393 C: Yes, no one will get attracted because of that. We do advocate that
394 every project should be reusable. If we talk about maps, there's a map
395 database, openstreetmap. There's someone that inputs all the maps into
396 the database, there's a program generating maps. Now someone can put a
397 text interface in front of the database to get to the same data. Not like
398 Facebook where data is hidden behind one web interface. If Facebook's
399 going out of business all the data is gone. So we say: re-usability. It
400 would be a huge waste to redo all this data.
401
402 M: What's the reason we don't have data reusability today but big
403 companies that collect all the data and not a lot of small contributions
404 by people? After all the idea has been around for 20/30 years as well..
405
406 C: Consumption is the problem. What's left of our social structure is
407 the 'I want' and 'I get'. Everything in between the 'waiting', 'I need
408 to master this' has been lost to Hyper-capitalism.
409
410 M: What do you think one can do about this? Is your attempt of focusing
411 on simple protocols trying to turn back the wheel of time a little or
412 changing it's direction a little?
413
414 C: I cannot convert the whole world. That's impossible. It's about showing
415 a different way. Someday someone will come along and use all this because
416 it fits his needs. If I only have a generation of smartphone users that
417 never have touched a personal computer, then they need to know that
418 there's a cleaner and simpler way. Your hand does not have to get warm
419 when surfing the web.
420
421 M: If I may exaggerate a little: We have had steam engines and horse
422 carriages back then, today's tools are a lot better, more efficient and
423 comfortable and enable us more?
424
425 C: No! We beg to differ: Some of the old protocols could not reach
426 everyone due to technical problems. But now I have gigabit internet
427 connections and so on, content distribution over gopher is instant. You
428 will see a difference. Try moving the mouse on a current Microsoft Windows
429 machine and compare it to a Windows 95 device. The older machine will
430 be faster. There are less layers of abstraction at work, it's simpler. A
431 computer has to do some real work, not existing in pure theory, like in
432 a bureaucracy. It's about practicality and fun.
433
434 M: Having fun with the computer is a recurring topic. Is this a central
435 point for you and your allies?
436
437 C: Yes it is like in any other club out there. If it is no fun, why
438 go there? We are hobbyists, working 8-10 hours per day, then I need
439 a good reason for doing this. That may be why there's often rougher
440 communication happening. Maybe due to us being human and not service
441 staff. Then it may happen that we demand some signs of self help from
442 others. This is not a self-service shop but a hobby. If I want to be
443 part of that I have to do my share...
444
445
446 [radio jingle]
447
448 M: Here's the ABS Magazin: Arbeit, Bildung und Soziales. Your magazine
449 about social policies here on radio x the Frankfurt citizen radio. We
450 have talked about the gopher protocol, the simple way of exchanging text
451 over the internet. We will continue our talk with Christoph as there
452 are now some people that want to take care of the future development
453 of gopher. What's the current state of affairs and how to move on? That
454 will be one of the topics of an upcoming conference and we would like
455 to know what will happen there. What's it about?
456
457 C: It's about 'bitreich con' or conference. That will take place next
458 Saturday and Sunday in Rodez, d partement Aveyron, South France as
459 there's a bitreich member living there. But you can also follow the
460 event online. There's the slides available on the gopher hole via ssh,
461 an audio stream via gopher and IRC chat. So everyone can participate.
462
463 M: So one can listen to talks, the discussions and ask questions via
464 the IRC channel.
465
466 C: Exactly! And your upper legs won't get burned while doing so.
467
468 M: What's the schedule for the conference?
469
470 C: On Saturday we will talk about bitreich and what has happened there. We
471 have made changes to our manifest, new members and projects. On Sunday we
472 will talk about gopher exclusively. A lot of Americans will be looking
473 forward to this as there hasn't been a gopher con in a long time. And
474 they are mostly part of the older gopher community. So this will be the
475 first time that we will all meet together again.
476
477 M: And what will happen there? Will there be talks, programming sessions
478 or just a social event with discussions?
479
480 C: The most important thing for gopher is that we restart a discussion
481 that has been dormant for the last years. We need some kind of team
482 spirit again. As I said we do have 300 gopher servers this year, last
483 year there have been 100. So there's an increase. The protocol itself
484 has some sharp edges and warts that need to be discussed as well to
485 define them in the future. Especially interaction between gopher and
486 the web is still undefined. And we want to establish a discussion panel,
487 to keep in touch with each other.
488
489 M: You say there are 300 servers. What's on them? When I browsed through
490 them I have found a log of 'phlogs', something you would call a blog on
491 the web, right?
492
493 C: Yes phlogs, just like blogs. There are many of then and there have
494 been a lot of new phlogs. Because distribution of content is so simple,
495 you upload your text and it's there to be read. Very simple, just as it
496 should be. There's nothing more that for a blog as well really. A lot of
497 people do this due to a retro chic, like enjoying it like in the good
498 old days, some also do it due to it's idea of simplicity. Let me open
499 up my slides for a talk I have prepared so I can tell you some services
500 that might be interested for newcomers in the gopher space.
501
502 M: Gopher space is the whole part of the network, all servers running the
503 gopher protocol and all information on them? Just like the world wide web?
504
505 C: Yes, that's what I mean by that. As an example we have the following
506 services: A gopher fronted for mastodon/GNU Social as an alternative
507 to Facebook. Then there's an interface for the pirate bay's search,
508 an Interface for YouTube (search only), Wikipedia, a search searx which
509 works like Google or duckduckgo but federated. Project Gutenberg, where
510 old books are collected and there's even a search fronted for Netflix.
511
512 M: Those aren't static sites like text or audio or image files. But
513 there are interactive elements?
514
515 C: That's included in the gopher protocol. It's a search feature where
516 you send a search request to a server and get a response back. That's
517 how it is used in the pirate bay search for example where I send a search
518 term and get back a list of torrents to download.
519
520 M: That's not very different from websites…
521
522 C: Oh yes, it's different! I have mentioned the structure imposed by
523 gopher before. The looks will always be the same. I have a list of menus
524 and links, which I can follow until there's a file behind it or more
525 information. On the web you'll often have trouble finding your content
526 due to all the ads.
527
528 M: So the web currently is very heavy on graphics giving web designers a
529 lot of possibilities to create a page. And then there are factors that
530 have contributed to rising advertisements and the increasing resource
531 hunger of these websites. Wouldn't it also be a proposal to say: Let's
532 just use HTML 1.0 like in the beginning of the web? You'd get images and
533 links but no extra code execution via JavaScript. Is that in alignment
534 with your goals?
535
536 C: I still have in mind what I have said about meta data and Tor. It would
537 be a step in the right direction but many have tried this and many many
538 have failed. That's a problem. The only thing you can do on the web to day
539 is to browse the mobile version of a site and suddenly it's accessible.
540
541 M: When you say 'failed', who do you tell? Does that mean it's too
542 complicated to create even simple websites? Or did they fail because they
543 look old and too retro? How can you tell that their attempt has failed?
544
545 C: It's the same problem why we won't see gopher taking over the
546 world. It's all too big. The same technology is everywhere but is seen
547 differently in India or Africa than here. Everyone has a different
548 knowledge level. The same is true for repairs. Knowledge gets lost. The
549 current generation does not do this. It's important to show them that it
550 can be different, it's about preserving that knowledge.
551
552 M: With repairs you are referring to the ability to repair your own
553 devices because they are designed in a simple way?
554
555 C: Yes, but there's more to that today. We are in an era of 3D printing
556 where Airbus will get 40% of the parts for an airplane out of a 3D
557 printer. If done right we can do this also for the end user.
558
559 M: So the HTML 1.0 revival has been an interesting idea from your point of
560 view but it's not really suited to keep to simple and essential protocols?
561
562 C: The problem with web development is that it's just piling up
563 layers of software. There's JavaScript on top of JavaScript on top of
564 JavaScript. The same is true for all commercial development. Why is it
565 the hobbyists that have to take care of simplification? Everyone lives
566 in their own filter bubble and as long as there's profit there's no need
567 for change. That's a problem and that's why we have to show a new way
568 as an alternative.
569
570 M: If I keep piling up layers upon layers and build it so that I can
571 still access the older layers then that's surely an advantage? To be
572 able to continuously carry on work while being backwards compatible
573 without making hard cuts where old content will not work anymore -
574
575 C: That's a totally different problem: Take archive.org, the people
576 trying to archive the web. They have huge problems scraping modern
577 web pages trying to find content and archive it. That's due to the core
578 problem of us not using text anymore. That has to be solved. We use
579 abstractions not text.
580
581 M: Currently when using HTML, text files are transferred. Or are you
582 fearing that there's just binary data exchanged in the future, to present
583 you an image containing text?
584
585 C: That's really happening at the moment, it's called web assembly. So
586 there's binary programs being executed in the browser which further
587 complicates it all. This also implies more access to the computer
588 hardware, another issue we have been warning about since Snowden. It
589 will get a lot worse.
590
591 M: That sounds pretty fatalistic, the web is a lost cause and cannot be
592 saved. Is it really that bleak?
593
594 C: It will get more complex and nontransparent. I cannot see it
595 differently. The developments of the last 20 years have been going in
596 this direction. We currently have only 3 web browsers left, that's also
597 a sign. With gopher one can implement a client in a couple of minutes
598 in virtually any programming language. There are only 3 browsers left
599 because not a single person will manage to write another one in their
600 lifetime. That's impossible with current standards.
601
602 M: Do you have to recreate everything from scratch? Isn't it a
603 possibility to stand on the shoulders of giants and do great things
604 with that? Otherwise we will again have to solve the same problems with
605 primitive tooling that have been solver already.
606
607 C: That's the same argument we have already had. The world's too big. We
608 offer one proposal how to make things simpler. Sometimes it gets picked
609 up, sometimes it isn't. But it's about spreading this idea: It's possible
610 to make it simpler! There are many people out there doing simple web
611 pages but total and absolute simplicity will not happen. If we'd all use
612 the same web browser for example we'd also have all the same security
613 flaws. That's another point: With Linux everyone can build their own
614 system and is independent. Like with natural selection mono culture makes
615 us fallible to the same virus.
616
617 M: You say: We need to experiment, we need to be diverse we need to create
618 things as we want them as users which is not the same as companies would
619 like to design web pages and our communications.
620
621 C: Companies may do what they want, once they see that people use our
622 things because they are fun… as it is happening at Microsoft, they
623 switch over to Linux because Linux is fun and they are having trouble
624 finding developers that do Microsoft. That's why Microsoft is developing
625 a Linux subsystem and is porting Linux software to it. Because there's
626 no one who wants to work with this tedious and boring Microsoft stuff.
627
628 M: Really? I have got the impression that windows is widespread in
629 industry applications where software is available for windows only. Or
630 in the games industry where a x86 windows platform is the prime one and
631 Windows the tool of choice.
632
633 C: That depends on your point of view! Linux has simply won!
634
635 M: *laughs*
636
637 C: Take the smartphone: 90% is running Linux and there are whole
638 generations of people in Africa that use their phones as their sole
639 device. Those are all Linux users. Industry and commerce applications
640 are niche products and niches move very slowly. Maybe we'll see a change
641 there in 20-30 years. And that's the point: Now we have the possibility,
642 now that there are no developers for Microsoft that do it with all their
643 heart, it's all about passion anyway, then we have people here on the
644 other hand, that switch all over to Linux. Microsoft is supporting docker,
645 they even distribute their own Linux images for their cloud service. Linux
646 has won.
647
648 M: You said that in some countries the desktop is irrelevant now, a
649 smartphone more important. Do you think that's a development that will
650 also reach us? Will the smartphone replace the laptop?
651
652 C: I can simply tell you an observation: We have had a village festival
653 here the other day and all the young ladies where sitting there using
654 their smartphone.
655
656 M: Okay...
657
658 C: That's a sign isn't it!
659
660 M: I see that you have a clear picture in mind… How's the reach of
661 your project with gopher, IRC and alternative social networks. Do you
662 see any international recognition? Or is it more some experiment of
663 people in the industrial nations?
664
665 C: Americans, as these are the old Gents that have been tinkering with
666 gopher in the old days, but there is also a wide reach in Europe. I have
667 seen a world map yesterday containing all the gopher servers. There
668 have been 3 in Africa, Japan has had a couple, Asia… there are
669 interested people everywhere. I know 2 enthusiasts from Argentina through
670 bitreich. We are international, English is our language as we are small.
671
672 M: Is there a way to access gopher on smartphones?
673
674 C: Proxies are the easiest way, seconded by 'overbite'. That's a gopher
675 plugin for browsers made by Cameron Kaiser, an American developer. He has
676 build solutions for Firefox and Chromium. You can find this through your
677 web browser. There are also graphical clients but those you'll have to
678 build yourself, so that's not suitable for beginners. But it's the same
679 as on the desktop: The advanced users have their command line where they
680 can run any of the command line clients, as it is a Linux system. And
681 the people specialized on the web can access it through a proxy. So
682 there's accessibility on all levels including 'backwards' compatibility.
683
684 M: You'll have your conference soon, where you will exchange ideas. Will
685 there be a way to read up on this later?
686
687 C: Yes the recordings and slides will be available online.
688
689 M: Being available online is the right clue! You all know that
690 you can listen to all of episodes of the ABS Magazin on our website
691 absmagazin.de. There you can listen again to how this all works, have a
692 look at the show notes where we will put in all the links that have been
693 mentioned on the show.
694
695 You have been listening to this week's episode of the ABS Magazine. You
696 have seen that there are many possibilities and a lot of them you can
697 use for yourself, to create your information channels as you want them
698 to be. Thanks for being with us, thanks for listening! You can join
699 us again next week at 4pm on radio-x, 91,8MHz your Frankfurt citizen
700 radio. So long!
701
702
703 # Corrigenda
704
705 [1] The german word for gopher is 'Taschenratte', not 'Maulwurf'.
706
707 [2] Gopher was developed at the UMN, not the MIT.
708