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COMMENT PAGE FOR:
(HTM) Apple introduces M4 chip
alanh wrote 3 days ago:
> 3-nanometer technology
Wow. I remember being assured that we would never reach even low
double-digit nanometer processes.
stackedinserter wrote 3 days ago:
All this power and I still can't play decent games on my macbook.
seec wrote 12 hours 33 min ago:
They don't care because they can't make money off it. They know very
well that Steam would outsell their App Store offering so greatly
(with good reasons) if they supported Vulkan that they don't see the
point.
They push their Metal API not just for the hardware matchup but
because it allows them to trap developers into optimizing for their
technology only and getting them to sell their games in the App
Store.
Because the minute devs start looking into options for cross-platform
dev/deploy their Metal/App Store combo is just not very enticing
compared to the alternative.
But they would rather lie about caring for this use case and they
would need to have better GPUs in the first place, but at least it
looks like this should be improved with M4.
For all the big talk they give, their GPU in the entry level Apple
Silicon chip doesn't even match the power of a current gen console
(either PS5 or Xbox series X have better GFLOPS).
The Max versions are better but they only come in devices starting at
over 2.5k⬠starting price (still with lots of compromises most
likely) and those get absolutely trounced by hardware at this price
point that features dedicated GPUs, obviously.
But they will very much remind you about how great battery life is,
because it is all that matters, right? right? (Desktops, hello?)
Unless you can justify one of the Max variants for other things,
there is not much point bothering with it. If you really want a Mac,
it will still be better, faster and cheaper to just buy the most
basic Mac you can get away with and get a console or a custom PC with
the rest of the money.
It is very sad, but this is the state of things. Gaming on Apple was
never very good, but at least before Apple Silicon there were some
variants of iMacs/MBPs that were decent enough and not breaking the
bank too much (with Windows support for even better performance).
ethagknight wrote 3 days ago:
Interesting, it seems Apple knows they are up against the wall where
there isn't really much more their devices NEED to do. The cases that
Apple gives for using these devices incredible compute is very
marginal. Their phones computers and iPads are fantastic and mainly
limited by physics. I have basically one of everything, love it all,
and do not feel constrained by the devices of the last 3-4 years.
Vision and Watch still leave room for improvement, but those are small
lines. Limited opportunity to innovate, hence the Vision being pushed
to market without a real path forward for customer need/use. Very few
people read about the latest iPad m4 and think "oh wow my current iPad
cant do that..."
Curious what steps they will take, or if they shouldn't just continue
returning large amounts of cash to shareholders.
ponorin wrote 4 days ago:
part of me wonders if the reason apple went with an unusual double jump
in processor generation is that they are fearing or at least trying to
delay comparison with other desktop class arm processors. wonder if mac
lineup will get m4 at all or start with m4 pro or something. we'll see.
zamadatix wrote 4 days ago:
Doesn't add up, if you fear something about to launch will outdo your
product in a given segment then you push that launch earlier, not
later so your competitor is also first to market.
insane_dreamer wrote 4 days ago:
8GB RAM?? what is this, 2005? Seriously, how much would it cost Apple
to start its base M4 model with 16GB RAM.
achandlerwhite wrote 4 days ago:
it's an ipad...
throwaway1194 wrote 4 days ago:
I dread using a Mac for any serious work, you lose a lot of the
advantages of Linux (proper package and window management, native
containers, built-in drivers for every hardware out there, excellent
filesystems support, etc). And you get what exactly?
_zoltan_ wrote 4 days ago:
Best hardware on the world best desktop OS. I wouldn't trade my MBP .
throwaway1194 wrote 3 days ago:
Best according to whom and for what reason? Give me some real
reasons for why it is "best". That's what Apple's marketing
department would say.
_zoltan_ wrote 3 days ago:
I don't need to fiddle with settings and as a developer all my
tools are there (git, clang, ...). I don't need to care about the
version of my kernel and can be worry free to click update.
Plus it's beautiful, great to touch hardware.
seec wrote 13 hours 7 min ago:
Worry free update has not been a thing with macOS in ages. I
dread any OS update, since it will take ages at the very least
and very likely to bring more bugs than the one, they were
supposed to fix.
And sometimes they outright remove support for useful stuff
(subpixel rendering, hello) or obsolete still useful software
just because they decided to (32bits apps hello).
I don't know how people can still things like that about the
Mac, even Windows is better these days.
qwerty456127 wrote 4 days ago:
> M4 has Appleâs fastest Neural Engine ever, capable of up to 38
trillion operations per second, which is faster than the neural
processing unit of any AI PC today.
How useful this is for free libraries? Can you invoke it from your
Python or C++ code in a straightforward manner? Does it not rely on
proprietary drivers only available for their own OS?
zamadatix wrote 4 days ago:
It's a piece of hardware so it'll have their own driver but you can
access it through the OS APIs just like any other piece of hardware.
What's new is the improvement in speed, Apple has exposed their NPUs
for years. You can e.g. run Stable Diffusion on them.
garydgregory wrote 4 days ago:
Posts like these directly to the Apple PR dept is just an ad IMO.
sean_the_geek wrote 4 days ago:
Seems like we are clearly in the _âpost peak Appleâ_ era now. This
update is just for the sake of update; iPad lineup is (even more)
confusing; iPhone cash-cow continues but at slower growth rate; new
product launches - ahem! Vision Pro - have seen low to negligible
adoption; marginal improvements to products so consumers are holding
out longer on to their devices.
drstrangevibes wrote 4 days ago:
yes but will it blend?
fakelonmusk wrote 4 days ago:
Why does Apple hurry to push M4 before A18 Pro?
Who can support the hypotheses below?
1) M3 follows M2 and A16 Pro in part, and
2) M4 follows M2 and A17 Pro.
koksik202 wrote 4 days ago:
Give me Mac OS bootup on iPad and I am in
Donât get the hype of the performance and being locked to iPad
ecosystem
helsinkiandrew wrote 4 days ago:
Maybe I'm getting blasé about the ever improving technical
capabilities, but I find the most astounding thing is that the M4 chip,
an OLED screen on one side, and aluminium case on the other can fit in
5.1mm!
hi-v-rocknroll wrote 1 day ago:
Pretty much. We've reached peak technical capabilities and hype.
Perhaps new sensors, make it sprout propellers and turn into a UAV
that follows you around the room and can never be dropped, or at
least make it waterproof to 4m.
JSDevOps wrote 4 days ago:
Why does this feel like it was hastily added at the last minute?
Developing a chip like the M4 presumably takes years, so hastily
incorporating 'AI' to meet the hype and demand could inevitably lead to
problems.
mlyle wrote 4 days ago:
Apple has had "Neural Engine" hardware in their SOCs since 2017, and
have been building its capabilities every generation.
zer0zzz wrote 4 days ago:
Looking forward when these new 10 core M4s end up in cheap mac
desktops. I hope theres a max ram boost from the existing 24GB.
smallstepforman wrote 4 days ago:
As an engineer, I find it extremelly frustrating to read Appleâs
marketing speak. It almost sounds like ChatGPT and StarTrek
techno-babble. Engineers cannot stomach reading the text, and non
engineers wont bother reading it anyway.
Whats wrong with plain old bullet-points and sticking to the technical
data?
hi-v-rocknroll wrote 1 day ago:
Apple is no longer run by SJ. That train has sailed. Marketing and
design wank wall-to-wall.
dimask wrote 4 days ago:
The target audience is neither engineers nor general public; these
announcements are meant for tech journalists/youtubers etc to refer
to when writing or talking about it.
SkyMarshal wrote 4 days ago:
I wonder if they've implemented any fixes or mitigations for GoFetch (
[1] ).
(HTM) [1]: https://gofetch.fail/
SkyMarshal wrote 4 days ago:
> M4 has Appleâs fastest Neural Engine ever, capable of up to 38
trillion operations per second, which is faster than the neural
processing unit of any AI PC today.
I didn't even realize there is other PC-level hardware with AI-specific
compute. What's the AMD and Intel equivalent of Neural Engine? (not
that it matters since it seems the GPU where most of the AI workload is
handled anyway)
dragonwriter wrote 3 days ago:
> not that it matters since it seems the GPU where most of the AI
workload is handled anyway
GPUs can also have AI-specific compute (e.g., Nvidiaâs tensor
cores.)
zamadatix wrote 4 days ago:
AMD/Intel just call it an NPU.
mrpippy wrote 4 days ago:
Todayâs Xcode 15.4 RC suggests that âDonanâ is the M4 core
codename, and that it may support ARMâs SME instructions.
(HTM) [1]: https://mastodon.social/@bshanks/112401605018159567
pmayrgundter wrote 4 days ago:
Am I missing it? 3x faster than an Xbox 10 from 2020 sounds "just"
like Moore's law growth
Cool! Thanks Apple!
I guess this is to be expected given your market position and billions
in the bank?
Thanks so much for doing it. We'll definitely buy all your
rustcleaner wrote 4 days ago:
I really really hope [but doubt] Qubes OS runs on something like this
with these caveats:
-using an add-in video card for dom0 gpu
-apple's on-die gpu can be passed through to a qube
-apple's unified memory does not need OS X to adjust the RAM/VRAM wall
Since I doubt these caveats are in play, I think I may be stuck with
enterprise hand-me-downs that I can pass through.
xyst wrote 4 days ago:
Cool. Too bad itâs Apple and itâs locked down to Apple products.
If Apple ever decides to pivot business to chip manufacturing that
allows open access and sale. Then I would revisit.
Always need competition in this space. Especially for low power
cpu/gpus.
zmmmmm wrote 4 days ago:
I'm most interested in what this means for the next Vision device.
Half the power budget could well translate to a very significant
improvement in heat on the device, battery size and other benefits.
Could they even dispense with the puck and get the battery back onto
the headset for a consumer version that runs at slightly lower
resolution and doesn't have the EyeSight feature?
If they could do that for $2000 I think we'd have a totally different
ball game for that device.
tzury wrote 4 days ago:
âM4 has Appleâs fastest Neural Engine ever, capable of up to 38
trillion operations per secondâ
Let that sink in.
zamadatix wrote 3 days ago:
Built in to a SoC* e.g. a 2060 from 5 years ago had double that in
tensor cores it just wasn't part of the SoC. Great improvement for
its type/application, dubious marketing claim with the wording.
And it's really not that great even though it's a welcomed
improvement - Microsoft is pushing 45 TOPs as the baseline, you just
can't get that in an APU yet (well, at least for the next couple
months).
0xWTF wrote 4 days ago:
Dear Apple, please stop focusing on thinner. At this point you're
selling high-end breakables. To quote Katherine the Great, Huzzah!
dev1ycan wrote 4 days ago:
It's hilarious how they still push the "better for the Environment"
garbage when they industrially destroy old iphones.
Havoc wrote 4 days ago:
They have been working on tech to pull them apart via robots to
isolate component parts. Unsure if itâs in use at scale though
bschmidt1 wrote 4 days ago:
Anyone know more about the "NPU" (neural processing unit)? Basically a
GPU specialized for AI?
Havoc wrote 4 days ago:
Yeah. Basically specialises in fast matrix operations so focused on
ai and ML. Vaguely like a gpu minus the graphic output and the
pipeline needed for that.
bschmidt1 wrote 4 days ago:
Awesome thanks. Given it's an iPad I'm guessing that means
consumer-facing AI which is very cool.
aetherspawn wrote 4 days ago:
No numbers on battery life improvements?
1024core wrote 4 days ago:
> capable of up to 38 trillion operations per second
Assuming these are BF16 ops, by comparison, an H100 from NVIDIA will do
1979 teraFLOPS BF16.
So this "Neural Engine" from Apple is 50x slower than an H100 PCIe
version.
foobiekr wrote 4 days ago:
The h100 is $80k.
Topfi wrote 4 days ago:
Generally, I feel that telling a company how to handle a product line
as successful as the iPads doesn't make much sense (what does my
opinion matter vs their success), but I beg you, please make Xcode
available on iPad OS or provide an optional and separate MacOS mode
similar to Dex on Samsung tablets. Being totally honest, I don't like
MacOS that much in comparison to other options, but we have to face the
fact that even with the M1, the iPads raw performance was far beyond
the vast majority of laptops and tablets in a wide range of use cases,
yet the restrictive software made that all for naught. Consider that
the "average" customer is equally happy with and, due to pricing,
generally steered towards the iPad Air, which are great devices that
cover the vast majority of use cases essentially identical to the Pro.
Please find a way beyond local transformer models to offer a true use
case that differentiates the Pro from the Air (ideally development).
The second that gets announced, I'd order the 13-inch model straight
away. As it stands, Apple's stance is at least saving me from spending
3,5k as I've resigned myself to accept that the best hardware in
tablets simply cannot be used in any meaningful way. Xcode would be a
start, MacOS a bearable compromise (unless they start to address the
instability and bugs I deal with on my MBP, which would make MacOS more
than just a compromise), Asahi a ridiculous, yet beautiful pipedream.
Fedora on an iPad, the best of hardware and software, at least in my
personal opinion.
ragazzina wrote 4 days ago:
>a product line as successful as the iPads
Ipad revenue has been declining for 9 out of the last 10 quarters.
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