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Office of Steam Forum for Model &amp
;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp; Toy Steam Gas &amp
;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp; Hot Air Engines
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(DIR) Return to: Restorations
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#Post#: 22697--------------------------------------------------
Personal Standards
By: Jasper Date: March 12, 2020, 4:54 pm
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What are your personal standards for doing a restoration on an
old toy steam, toy electric motor, or gas engine, etc.?
Do you personally think conserving or repairing is different
than restoring?
The reason I ask is that I have a few old toy steam engines (and
toy electric motors) and I my personal standards are changing.
Maybe I am getting lazy, or maybe I have made a few too many
previous mistakes. Maybe I see some quality in an old steam
engine that I don't want to alter, but can’t figure out how to
keep.
#Post#: 22703--------------------------------------------------
Re: Personal Standards
By: Nick Date: March 12, 2020, 5:41 pm
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I used to only buy engines in need of restoration, but to me
they just aren't the same once they've been restored. I have no
longer stripped any paint... instead they go to the shelf and if
a replacement in better, original condition is found, I go that
route and either sell or plan to sell the old one.
#Post#: 22710--------------------------------------------------
Re: Personal Standards
By: txlabman Date: March 12, 2020, 6:03 pm
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It depends.....
In general, I try to keep them as original as possible. But,
sometimes, that just isn't feasible or possible. And, other
times, I just don't like the look of it in the condition that I
receive it.
I know that Danny ([member=25]Nuvolari[/member]) and Brent
([member=107]parallelmotion[/member]) have strong opinions on
this subject; and for really valuable and rare engines, I agree
that they should be kept as original as possible. Frankly, I
don't have their skills and would leave important engines to
them for restoration.
I have been working on a Bowman M122 for the last week. There
are thousands of these out there. They are not particularly
rare. But, they are well made and fairly easy to disassemble. I
hated the bronze lacquer finish that was on the boiler and
decided to make it all shiny and new. The base was in decent
shape; so, I cleaned it and treated it with some car wax to
protect the paint. I also made an exhaust pipe for it out of
brass tubing.
I paid very little for this engine and did it the way I wanted
to do it. I am very happy with the outcome. I am sure others
will think that I ruined it.....
I will be posting a video and pictures soon.
Everyone has their personal preferences and I don't judge others
for their choices. Each to his own!
#Post#: 22713--------------------------------------------------
Re: Personal Standards
By: CBWho Date: March 12, 2020, 7:46 pm
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For me:
Function is more important than form.
I don't have expensive engines, so that factors in as well. Of
course, I prefer originality but for example, on my big Doll
orphan, 90% of the original is gone. It would be foolish to
restore to original since it would be prohibitively expensive.
For Mamod mobiles, keeping it not original is usually the most
important thing. They made so many.
#Post#: 22714--------------------------------------------------
Re: Personal Standards
By: Nick Date: March 12, 2020, 7:50 pm
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I have no problems with restorations or modifications, as
Charlie said, many were made in the thousands. In fact, I love
seeing pictures of restorations and the process... I'm just too
busy right now with 3 kids and too lazy to take on any projects
alongside the many household projects I already have and have
found it easier and often cheaper to buy a good, original
engine.
#Post#: 22724--------------------------------------------------
Re: Personal Standards
By: Scorpion2nz Date: March 12, 2020, 9:51 pm
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If it is all there and running I tend to leave it alone .
If missing 1 or 2 parts i will just make them .
If a total mess then a full rebuild from the ground up .
Cheers
Dennis
#Post#: 23621--------------------------------------------------
Re: Personal Standards
By: RobMW Date: April 2, 2020, 6:05 am
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I know which one I prefer on my shelf.
I like to buy broken and restore to near new. Unless its a
steal.
#Post#: 23630--------------------------------------------------
Re: Personal Standards
By: Nick Date: April 2, 2020, 9:59 am
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Not too many would have touched that one Rob, your work is
amazing! 8)
#Post#: 23798--------------------------------------------------
Re: Personal Standards
By: Nuvolari Date: April 6, 2020, 7:41 pm
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[quote author=Jasper link=topic=2353.msg22697#msg22697
date=1584050046]
What are your personal standards for doing a restoration on an
old toy steam, toy electric motor, or gas engine, etc.?
Do you personally think conserving or repairing is different
than restoring?
The reason I ask is that I have a few old toy steam engines (and
toy electric motors) and I my personal standards are changing.
Maybe I am getting lazy, or maybe I have made a few too many
previous mistakes. Maybe I see some quality in an old steam
engine that I don't want to alter, but can’t figure out how to
keep.
[/quote]
Restoration is a big word, and there is no standard scenario,
and so many views on it.
Each case stands on its own, even engines of the same make and
type.
But perhaps one of the biggest mistakes that I see, is no
research on the item.
Sometimes research takes me 2/3 of restoration work.
Restoration is also about research, skills, materials and
tools.
Don't try to imitate someone who has done this for years, you
will guarantee fail out of lack of experience.
Restoration is a nice discipline of the steam hobby, and it is
something you build up.
Do it good, and it will be fun.
When I was a graphic design student, a teacher sad, how can you
use a pencil if you don't know, what it's made of, how to hold
it and how to use it.
This went so far that we were making our own pencil, it sounds
stupid but you won't believe what a complicated tool a pencil
is.
It comes down to first learn how to crawl before you start to
walk.
There are several rules that I made up for myself that help me
bring a restorations to hopefully a good end.
Biggest mistake I unfortunately see to often, first time
restoration, whiteout skill, tools and a complicated rare
engine.
Nobody says you aren't allowed to buy nice rare engines as a
beginner.
But my advice is, that it very wise not to start on it, until
you fully researched it, you know all the skills needed, and
have all the tools do do the job.
So these are the questions I always ask myself:
-what type of engine is, rare not rare (the more rare it is, the
more sure you must be that you are up to the job)
-what is the visible damage.
-what parts are missing, can original parts be found, its it
possible to produce a 100% replica.
-what techniques are used, can and do I have the skills,
materials, products to an up to 100% repare.
-and a very difficult question, what are the not visible
damages. (I had engines that looked so easy, turning out to a
very specialized job)
-how does a well preserved similar engine looks after aging
(that is the look you want to achieve)
-If your restoration is visible, it for 99% not good executed,
it's as simple as that…
Personally I found it a weak excuse wen a restoration turns out
to a wanna be but can't do it.
Often I hear I don't have the skills, materials, tools or the
worst saying " I'm happy with it…"
I always try to live my self into the engine, have the respect
and feel for it's age.
I call it the gut feeling, others say, its the artist eye.
There is not always a need to wipe away old used marks.
Out of experience loosing old bad repairs with lots solder
clutter and/or things used that are not original.
Together with a clean up of every part of the engine (for 90%
old oils), is for 90% your physical restoration.
You always have to keep in mind that what you change for bad or
for good, there is no way to bring it back as it was.
Perhaps most difficult discipline are patinas.
these can be factory made or come with aging, tackling them
often make or brake the restoration.
Coming to tools, to me it's obvious you have the correct tools
for the job, If you don't have them leave it or ask someone who
can help you.
I always divide my tool park into to two sections, absolutely
needed tools, and fun gadgets to have.
I understand, that if you start in the hobby, that you don't
have a lathe, or a mill.
But I advise you, if you are serious about restoration, to do
the necessary investments.
And if you buy machinery don't buy the cheap stuff.
We have a saying here, buying cheap, is buying expensive in the
long end.
And you don't have to buy everything at ones, even after all
these years of restoration, there are still new tools that come
to the tool park.
Coming to the last and perhaps most difficult part, materials
and techniques.
I think I spend sometimes more time finding sooted materials and
the technique how they must be used.
This can be sometimes a point of unwanted failure.
The problem is that materials are not longer available, even
forbidden by todays standards, think of lead holding paints for
instance.
Same goes for techniques, even if you have the product, it
sometimes requires the skill and know how that demand a serious
learning program.
All I can say to someone who learns the skills, be you owns
greatest critic!!!
Friends and family will always say that you've done a great job,
where in reality you didn't.
But on the other hand don't be afraid, only be sure that what
you do, you can do good.
Even I after a lot of experience, am still challenged, and I
admit also to have mistakes and would do thing different.
Following the rules I made for myself, I'm still able to turn
99% of the mistakes I made into correction.
Make it for yourself a ground rule, if you are not up to it,
leave it as it is, there will be a time you can restore it as a
jewel in the crown.
And if you want to start restoring, start with a simple engine,
natural brass boiler (not blued), simpel motor and try to make
it 100 % looking as a perfect identical well preserved engine of
the same type.
Once you're able to do that you can move to the next challenge…
And don't forget this forum, it is one of the most powerful
tools you have.
Got a problem ask for it, you know someone who has the knowledge
ask for advice.
Perhaps a last word about criticism.
The more you're into restoration, the more it will frustrate you
when you see someone ruin an engine, is it being small or big
one.
And in the past I've learned, that 99% of the people see
cretinism as an attack on their own person, while it isn't.
To me it's the love for the engine, I see it as world heritage,
and to be treated that way.
Personally, I don't want to be the person that ruined it, my
goal is to be the one who preserved it…
Recently on an other forum, no need to dig it out, I pointed
with out, premeditated in quite a blunt way, that restoration
ended up in a perfect ruining of the identity of the engine.
(sad this as a small social experiment)
Within half an hour reactions of the community went ballistic,
it was rude and how dare I…
What did I do wrong, I didn't attack the individual himself, all
I sad was the truth, that it was a bad restoration.
So why should I say weldon, and leave that individual in the
believe that he done a good job.
He only will go on and ruin more engines, probably he will, but
perhaps I got him thinking and he will feel challenged to do
better.
One thing I know for sure, people who say to me weldon out of
politeness, are worthless critics, I rather have someone saying
that I done a bad job.
Of corse it's also up to the critic, to have a good point, and
if you open your mouth, now what you're talking about, and try
to give advice.
Stuff to think about…
It seems this has grown in to quite a manifest, but I hope this
will give you thinking stuff.
Good luck in your projects…
Cheers,
Danny
#Post#: 24406--------------------------------------------------
Re: Personal Standards
By: Roscoe Date: April 20, 2020, 9:02 am
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That is very solid advice Danny. I had the privilege of working
for a friend for 15yrs. who restores antique & vintage
Indy/Sprint cars. WWW.GBI1.COM.Research was a very big part of
the process. He scowers the country looking for the original
owners,drivers,mechanics to see if they have photos,articles or
any history of that specific car aiming for 100% accuracie. When
a car comes in a pile of parts and box’s he first access what’s
there and than begins the pain steaking process of searching the
country for what original parts can be found (it’s like trying
to find hen’s teeth) and what he can’t he makes. Buy bowering
parts from other owners or sometimes from the museum at the
Indianapolis Motor Speedway or original patterns to make exact
replicas. So no matter if what you are restoring is worth $100
to $10,000 or $100,000s or thousands of dollars it comes down to
pride of workmanship and what generations will view as what
things were like during that era. But in the end it all comes
down to whatever makes you happy. Danny’s advice is spot on.
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