Subj : Re: Ukraine Redux To : Lee Lofaso From : alexander koryagin Date : Thu Oct 29 2015 08:42 am Hi, Lee Lofaso! I read your message from 27.10.2015 20:27 ak>> keep them together as a state. When the results of elections were ak>> tramped by the Kiev's events in 2014 it became clear that the only ak>> way available for such an Ukraine is not a building of a strong ak>> single state, but a war. Those Americans (senator Mc Cain - you ak>> are the first!) who inspired Ukrainian people to overthrow the ak>> elected President and Government are actually responsible for the ak>> blood that flows there now. LL> Partitions have never worked. In any area of the world. At no time LL> in history. The matter is not in partitions themselves, but in people's mind. Like some atoms are stable, but some tend to fall apart. If two part of population extremely don't like each other and want to separate it is better to separate. It will be a natural and therefore long-life separation. For instance, the US, Australia, India etc separated from Britain healthily. It would have been bad if Britain had managed to drown them in blood and remain unity. But when separation is made only by fucking ambitious politicians (like Yeltsin, Yatsenuk etc( it is unhealthy separation. The USSR had separated mostly in this way. That's why gravity between eastern/southern Ukraine and Russia is much stronger than it is with western part of Ukraine. _Every healthy country should have its own gravity center_ which attracts all the country. LL> The division in Vietnam did not last. The division in Korea will LL> one day come to an end. These divisions were made by politicians. Vietnam parts remained close mentally. That's why their integration was very probable. Korea's parts became very different and most probably incompatible. LL> The division in Palestine will also come to an end at some point in LL> time. No, the hatred polarized people there, and ultra-nationalists are still in power. LL> India and Pakistan will not be divided forever over Kashmir LL> (although Muslims and Hindus will remain divided forever). Ireland LL> and Northern Ireland will one day rejoin as one. No chance if the occupants outnumber the local people greatly. LL> Yet we see the possible partition of not only Ukraine, but also LL> Syria, taking place. Syria was made artificially from different people groups. It was OK, when the Arabs were peaceful shepherds. NS>>> You're Vladimir Putin and you cannot allow Ukraine to join either NS>>> NATO or the European Union. And you won't. The military force you NS>>> have assembled on its eastern borders is the stick. But once NS>>> there is a Ukrainian government you can deal with, you have an NS>>> even mightier carrot to wield. ak>> It's is provocative and mean to compare Ukraine with an animal ak>> that is directed by Russia with a carrot. The main concern of ak>> Russia is millions of (Russian) Ukrainians that do not support the ak>> things that happened in Kiev in the spring of 2014. Actually when ak>> President Yanukovich was overthrown by the crowd in Kiev, these ak>> people were robbed of their choice and their right to choose their ak>> destiny. LL> The people want peace, not war. For decades the people of Ukraine LL> were at peace with both themselves and their neighbors. What LL> happened? How did the people of Ukraine suddenly find themselves at LL> odds with not just themselves, but everybody else as well? Ukraine is a formation of two groups of people with different mentality. West and east of the Ukraine historically rejected each other. Such a union cannot be stable. Well, it is like a surgeon creates a man from two bodies, that are incompatible with each other. Rejection is the most probable scenario, and if there is no rejection then there is a pain in the ass. I mean that is like the situation in Ukraine looks like now. ak>> The problem is not is Crimea, the problem is in the inhabitant of ak>> the Crimea. The West must understand that it is a propaganda lie ak>> that those people had voted for separation from Ukraine under ak>> Russia's threats and gun barrels. The West must understand that ak>> even the bitter truth is better than a lie. The West must ak>> understand what the Crimean population really think about the ak>> situation on the peninsula. Then it will stop save these people ak>> from themselves. LL> I do not know, and can only venture to guess, but the population of LL> Crimea (before any vote was taken) was probably 90% to 95% Russian LL> speakers. Am I right? I'm willing to bet I am not far off. Yes, and imagine that this people were not allowed to have as little as street plates on their houses in Russian. LL> Language defines a culture of a people. I know this being Cajun. It LL> is not about race or nationality. Society and culture are two LL> different things. Language and also history. Crimea is a part of Russia's history, at least for three centuries. NS>>> You're Vladimir Putin, formerly of the KGB. You're Vladimir NS>>> Putin, and if you've learned nothing else there, you've learned NS>>> how to make an offer that can't be refused. ak>> If the US thinks that Ukrainian should join the West they should ak>> give the same right to the second part of Ukraine, which wants ak>> another way. That will be democracy. We live in 21st century, and ak>> we should accept divorces rather that killing our wives when they ak>> are going to leave us. LL> Ukraine must be allowed to be Ukraine. Nobody is boss of Ukrainians LL> except Ukrainians themselves. As such, Ukrainians must be allowed LL> to decide their own future. For themselves. Yes, but in the latest 2015 regional elections the party of power has gained just 20%. It is the result without the people of Crimea and Dombass who didn't participate. Bye, Lee! Alexander Koryagin fido7.debate 2015 --- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds * Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2) .