Comments: Gated by NETN...@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU Path: gmd.de!newsserver.jvnc.net!darwin.sura.net!paladin.american.edu!auvm!MSU.BITNET!RWWMAINT Return-Path: <@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU,@VTBIT.BITNET:CWI...@WUVMD.BITNET> Return-Path: <@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU:RWWMA...@MSU.BITNET> Message-ID: < CWIS-L%93050112322880@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l Date: Sat, 1 May 1993 12:31:33 EDT Sender: "Campus-Wide Information Systems" < CWI...@WUVMD.BITNET> From: Richard W Wiggins < RWWMA...@MSU.BITNET> Subject: Re: WWW vs. Gopher Comments: To: "Campus-Wide Information Systems" < CWI...@WUVMD.BITNET>, Tim Berners-Lee < t...@info.cern.ch> In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 30 Apr 1993 14:58:00 EDT from < NOYES@HARTFORD> Lines: 111 If you look at the history of Gopher and WWW, it appears they were conceived and discussed at about the same time (mid 1991) and deployed at roughly the same pace. But Gopher seems to be winning: There are 400 or so registered Gopher servers on the net; over 1100 are indexed by Veronica. There are about 50 Web servers. Gopher is currently number about number 10 in the list of applications generating traffic on the NSFnet backbone; WWW is 50. Both are growing rapidly. (These numbers are somewhat biased; WWW is more popular in Europe, so NSFnet numbers don't cover it; also, Gopher "front ends" a lot of WAIS data.) Why is Gopher ahead? At the recent meeting of the Internet Engineering Task Force in Columbus OH, this question was raised more than once. There was a "Birds of a Feather" session for WWW, and another one for Gopher. We had about 23 folks at the WWW session; there were about 54 at the Gopher one. Tim Berners-Lee, the principal architect of WWW, asked how many were running Web servers -- answer 3 or 4. At the Gopher BOF, I asked how many folks run Gopher servers -- answer just about all 54 attendees. Reasons given as to why Gopher is "winning": 1. Client software is available on popular platforms (PC, Mac) 2. Good VT100 support via "curses" client 3. The perception that hypertext is inherently complicated, always leading to a "twisty maze of passages all alike" (this perception is of course not shared by WWW adherents) 4. The relative ease of setting up a server. Some folks have a Gopher server running within an hour or two of downloading the package. Initial WWW setup takes quite a but longer. (One attendee reported that the installation documentation came in HTML, the markup language used by WWW, creating an interesting bootstrap problem) 5. U Minn as a central registry in the US, providing a visible "home page" for all Gophers 6. Gopher is very strong at linking to various document types. You can point a Gopher server at a Unix mail file, a WAIS server, or an FTP site, and you've got an instant gateway. ... but there may be solutions to all this: 1. NCSA says Mosaic will be available under other platforms (PC, Mac) at some point. Cornell Law School is working on a multipurpose client by the name of Cello. Others will surely come. 2. The curses client for WWW provided by Kansas with Lynx seems to fill this bill. 3. WWW folks feel that this is a bad rap for hypertext. As folks get more experience with hypertext documents in various systems, they'll accept it more. A Gopher tree can be represented in a Web; one need not build a complicated mesh of interwoven links. Hypertext just means you can have links within documents. 4. Tim Berners-Lee said there are some improvements to server administration that could be implemented. He mentioned simplifying setup of rules files. 5. There's no reason why a visible master WWW registry couldn't be prominently documented 6. This sort of functionality could be added or enhanced in WWW. (Perhaps someone from the Web community could share with us what's possible here. Can Web use WAIS indexing? Can it point to WAIS SRCs as easily as Gopher can?) We've been running a Gopher service since early 1992, and we're very active in the community. But after seeing Mosaic and WWW, it is very hard to deny the benefits of networked hypertext. Via Mosaic I showed Berners-Lee our Gopher at Michigan State. The first document we opened says "Look in the xxx folder for more information." B-L said "Now with WWW that would be an embedded pointer." In Mosaic, the hypertext links appear in color within the document. Links you've clicked on appear in a different color -- a nice touch. An example of a lovely use of WWW is an experiment at Ohio State, where they made a cross-referenced set of Unix 'man' pages. You see a reference to another page; the title is in red on the screen; click on it if it is of interest; it's on your screen. After IETF I showed all this to my management. I think there's a very good chance we'll want to migrate to the Web at some point within the next year or so. I would urge all readers of this list to find someone with an X-Windows capable workstation, get hold of Mosaic, and use it to check out WWW. Mosaic is worth seeing on its own, with nice features such as infinite history of documents selected. Working against Gopher lately has been the U Mn attitude towards the software. There has been the licensing flap, which is chronicled in comp.infosystems.gopher, and not worth rehashing here. Recently we had another disappointment: for over a year we've been patching the U Mn MS-DOS client, PC Gopher, to work with FTP Software Inc's suite (supplying the fix to U Mn each time). Now U Mn won't share the source code with us, saying that they will fix this themselves. This client was announced on March 19, 1993. It's now May 1, and none of our users can exploit this client. While U Mn is taking a more proprietary view of their software, Berners-Lee is working to open up the license for WWW. Despite all the above: Sites should not necessarily avoid Gopher as they set up new services. Right now, today, you can get going quickly in Gopher, and can serve virtually all users. When multipurpose clients come out for PCs and Macs, you can migrate to the Web. Already, one can view a Gopher tree having started in the Web, so a server set up under Gopher can deliver data to users after an announced migration to WWW. (Ie a logical migration need not mean an immediate physical move of data.) NCSA is even talking about providing a unified WWW/Gopher server. /Rich Wiggins, Gopher Coordinator, Michigan State U ^^^^^^ (er, CWIS?) Comments: Gated by NETN...@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU Path: gmd.de!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!auvm! SOUTHAMPTON.AC.UK!C.K.WORK Return-Path: <@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU,@VTBIT.BITNET:CWI...@WUVMD.BITNET> Return-Path: <@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU,@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu:C.K.W...@southampton.ac.uk> Via: uk.ac.southampton; Wed, 5 May 1993 09:44:36 +0100 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Message-ID: <10620.9305050824@mail.soton.ac.uk> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 09:24:32 BST Sender: "Campus-Wide Information Systems" < CWI...@WUVMD.BITNET> From: "C.K.Work" < C.K.W...@SOUTHAMPTON.AC.UK> Subject: Re: WWW vs. Gopher Comments: To: CWI...@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu In-Reply-To: < no.id>; from "Richard W Wiggins" at May 1, 93 12:31 pm Lines: 44 R. Wiggins said ... > > If you look at the history of Gopher and WWW, it appears they were > conceived and discussed at about the same time (mid 1991) and deployed > at roughly the same pace. But Gopher seems to be winning: There are 400 > or so registered Gopher servers on the net; over 1100 are indexed by > Veronica. There are about 50 Web servers. Gopher is currently number > about number 10 in the list of applications generating traffic on the > NSFnet backbone; WWW is 50. Both are growing rapidly. (These numbers are > somewhat biased; WWW is more popular in Europe, so NSFnet numbers don't > cover it; also, Gopher "front ends" a lot of WAIS data.) Why is Gopher > ahead? > This is followed by a number of reasons, which I agree with, but also feel will be addressed in time. To my mind, there is another problem with WWW which is inherent in all hypertext systems - the ongoing cost of preparing material for the service. To look at the narrow case of CWISes (for which Gopher seems very popular), it would seem that the way forward is to distribute the Info provision role across the institution - resulting in a diverse, and hopefully balanced, collection of info. However, in doing this, a degree of editorial control is lost. If we use WWW, who will put in the links? How will the systematic and consistent use of links be maintained ... unless considerable (and expensive) effort is directed towards this? I do not dismiss WWW as a valuable tool - but, in general purpose applications, it may prove to expensive to use. And unless the linkages can be maintained to a high standard, the prime benefit of WWW is lost. As in all hypertext systems, WWW can only be as good as the "link-author" makes it. We've probably all seen examples of good and bad PC/MAC based hypertext applications. In my experience, the good ones are narrowly focused, and written by an individual or under strong editorial control. The worst ones are inconsistent incomplete and contain 'black holes'. I don't see how the latter can be avoided in the case of general info systems with multiple sources (except at great expense). Colin K. Work Uni. of Southampton Computing Services C.K.W...@Southampton.AC.UK > Comments: Gated by NETN...@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!auvm!WWW3.CERN.CH!TIMBL Return-Path: <@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU,@VTBIT.BITNET:CWI...@WUVMD.BITNET> Return-Path: <@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU,@CEARN.CERN.CH:t...@WWW3.CERN.CH> Message-ID: <9305051445.AA16604@www3.cern.ch> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 15:45:58 +0100 Sender: "Campus-Wide Information Systems" < CWI...@WUVMD.BITNET> From: Tim Berners-Lee < t...@WWW3.CERN.CH> Subject: Re: WWW vs. Gopher Comments: To: "Campus-Wide Information Systems" < CWIS-L%WUVMD.BIT...@cearn.BITNET> Lines: 95 > Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 09:24:32 BST > From: "C.K.Work" < C.K.W...@southampton.ac.uk> [...] > To my mind, there is another problem with WWW > which is inherent in all hypertext systems - > the ongoing cost of preparing material for the service. No no no no no. This is one of the BIG falacies about WWW. You don't HAVE to write hypertext. The fact that a number of people have written some very nice hypertext out there doesn't mean you can't just run a W3 server on your Gopher data. If you take the NCSA public domain W3 server and run it just like you run your Gopher server. I mean, put it in the same way into inetd.conf and point it at the same directory. It will pick up the same .cap and other magic gopher files and make a nice hypertext tree up for you. So if you are readingthis and you are running a gopher server, you can go pick up the NCSA httpd server fron ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu and slot it in right away, and you are on the web. Sure, you might too find that you wnat to write some hypertext just for the welcome page at lease... but these is NO ongoing cost. > To look at the narrow case of CWISes (for which Gopher seems very popular), > it would seem that the way forward is to distribute the Info provision role > across the institution - resulting in a diverse, and hopefully balanced, > collection of info. However, in doing this, a degree of editorial control > is lost. If we use WWW, who will put in the links? If you use Gopher, who will put in the links? WWW and Gopher both have the ability to point from one node to any other node. The webs you make with Gopher and those you make with WWW have the same topology. The difference is NOT in the topology. It is in the format of a node. In Gopher, it is a MENU or a flat document. In WWW, it is a hypertext node which can be more expressive than a menu. (Already with the basic httpd server from CERN you get README files put in above or below your directory listings, which can allow you to include explanations which make your web easier to follow) > How will the systematic > and consistent use of links be maintained ... unless considerable (and > expensive) effort is directed towards this? Both WWW and Gopher have this problem. Any open system of references has the problem that you can link to something not under your control which then goes away. [...] > WWW can only be as good as the "link-author" makes it. We've probably > all seen examples of good and bad PC/MAC based hypertext applications. In my > experience, the good ones are narrowly focused, and written by an individual > or under strong editorial control. The worst ones are inconsistent > incomplete and contain 'black holes'. I don't see how the latter can be > avoided in the case of general info systems with multiple sources (except > at great expense). This applies equally to WWW and Gopher. In both cases, sticking to a a basic hierarchical structure, and only putting external links to things you have some confidence in, lead to a very useable system. A few tools to check for dangling links are always useful, although as servers can be down temporaily it is dangereous to delete links on the first failure. If (and only if) you do start to write real hypertext documents, then I agree with your observations about good hypertexts. There is a small style guide which is now part of the www server guide (ftp://info.cern.ch/pub/www/doc/www-server-guide.ps) or available online as http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/Provider/Style/Overview.html which makes some suggestions for good online hypertext. Any comments additions are welcome. > Colin K. Work > > Uni. of Southampton Computing Services > C.K.W...@Southampton.AC.UK Tim Berners-Lee W3 team at CERN