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feature requests, bugs, etc.
Discussion of Kamala Harris' positions on Palestine verboten?
A number of posts about the Harris campaign's positions on the ongoing genocide in Palestine, and what steps people were or weren't perceived to be taking in regards to that were deleted in the recent Harris campaign thread, with the mod suggestion to take it to a different, Palestine-focused thread instead. I disagree: numerous international threads have specifically requested not to be derailed by a focus on US politics, and questions about major campaign issues, even contentious ones like reproductive rights, have historically been appropriate for campaign threads. I understand there is ongoing mod decision making on this matter, but would like to seek community thoughts on this matter that might inform said decision making.
posted by corb on Aug 21, 2024 at 1:57 PM
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[Please remember that MetaTalk has lighter moderation than the other subsites, so please be mindful of our content policy and general guidelines before commenting here. ]
posted by loup at 2:05 PM
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I just want to aknowledge that this is a very hard to moderate situation and while I agree that discussion of Palestine is very germane to the DNC thread and I hope it will be welcome there, I think escalating back and forth argument is not good on this website.
I've thought for a long time that once you've posted more than.. I don't know... 5 times in a thread, you should get a pop-up that suggests you take a break. I would benefit from such a reminder!
posted by latkes at 2:15 PM
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I think it was an extremely bad call made worse by heavy handed moderation. Honesty every set of deletions on that thread felt tailor made to raise tempers and set users against each other. The refusal to discuss policy in a timely manner likewise raised temperatures. I would note that the DNC thread, with no such restrictions and no sign of heavy handed mod action went fine.
As for enacting a specific policy that silence on Gaza is the price of entry for general us-pol threads - if that policy is enacted I am done with this site. It is simply not morally acceptable to me.
posted by Artw at 2:19 PM
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The initial moderator comment is here.
"Several deletions made. Please refresh and avoid derailing the conversation with the I/P conflict while there's an ongoing thread about it."
Note that the linked thread is an extremely heavy one about sexual violence and torture.
Later there was this comment:
"Extended meta-commentary derail re I/P deleted. I think at this point, it would be best for folks who want to drill down on Harris's IP stance but do not want to post in the I/P thread to go ahead and make a post that's specifically about I/P and the Harris/Walz campaign. (Even within that (proposed) post, please do not center discussion on yourself or other members or the site.)"
As it happens an FPP of that nature did pop up later, though after the DNC one which I note ran just fine without it. I'd also say that this is not a particularly good or practical long term suggestion if such a thread isn't running as it creates a massive burden onanyone mentioning Gaza even in passing.
Deletions and mod comments become much more common beyond that point and are increasingly strident in tone.
posted by Artw at 2:37 PM
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>I understand there is ongoing mod decision making on this matter, but would like to seek community thoughts on this matter that might inform said decision making.
I love that they did it. But I haven't been on MeFi day in and day out like I used to be. But personally I love it. I hope they continue to do it. It's nothing that's getting even close to solved and it ultimately just feels like wanting to just take up space if continually discussing every single possible angle of a conflict that has been going on for eons.
It took me leaving this site for some time and spending years away, moderating sites elsewhere, to appreciate how much work moderation is, and when there just needs to be a halt on things that are just going to be endless arguing that devolves to being a whole mess.
But, there's an open thread that's humming right along with the usual takes. On "both sides" I'm sure the fact that there are real consequences at play and this isn't just academic bloviating makes people feel like they should either have access to the other people, or be cordoned off from them.
Anyway, I'm glad they did what they did. When they hadn't, I just tried to avoid those comments, as I feel the pain but I'm more in line with what Michelle and Barack were saying yesterday. So I support the moderator decisions in this case. But I'll be fine if they choose different, because at least from what I've experienced during my return, most people won't get aggressive or really even interact with you if you're not directing your comments at them. So there's a way to coexist somewhat. If that changes, there will be problems, but I doubt it would change. But then again, I can't see all the things the moderators are removing. So for all I know, some users are indeed calling other users "out their name" as my people would say.
posted by cashman at 2:48 PM
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Issues like this are a no-win situation for a moderated site, so this current situation firmly falls into the things-mefi-doesn't-do-well pile.
It's no surprise that after months and months of the stress of a seemingly doomed Biden campaign, the unexpectedly positive news that Harris/Walz brings unleashes some relatively unexamined enthusiasm for the Democratic ticket. Cue the stream of FPP's filled with vibes-based bon homme and joy driven comments.
What a buzz-kill then to be reminded that the world is a complex place, and that no one in the political arena has clean hands.
I'm only one data point, and it bears noting that I consume MeFi on a desktop/laptop, not a mobile device, so I'm not so sensitive to thousand comment threads, and am happy to scroll past issues that don't interest me.
My opinion on the continuing discussion of the I/P genocide and its impact on the presidential race is thus:
Users should be able to mention significant events relating to the candidates' campaigns in campaign threads
Users should be able to mention significant events relating to the convention in the convention thread
These mentions should contain a suggestion that a nuanced or impassioned discussion is happening in other, more specific I/P posts and those posts should be linked.
Moderators should also suggest and link to those posts in order to foster deeper discussion where deeper discussion is happening
Users who don't feel that there is a better place to have the discussion should consider making a FPP specifically to create a place for the discussion that they want to have
If we want MeFi to be a place where we can have these discussions at all, we all have to play a part in remaining civil to each other. Remember as well that it's okay to FIAMO.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:58 PM
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It's like having a discussion with anti abortion protestors. Plug in your preferred side as analogous to the anti abortion protestors with all the passion of religious zealotry. Because of course. There's simply no resolution, no ground to be conceded, and never will be.
posted by 2N2222 at 3:22 PM
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Speaking as a person who thinks the topic is worth discussing, I also think this community has members who are bad at talking about it, and continually resort to name-calling, judgementalism, condescension, oversimplification, etc. There are a couple of commenters I just have to totally ignore, not because I disagree with their politics (they are more or less on my "side" of the topic) but because they continue to be huge jerks in both the phrasing of their posts and their interactions with others, and I have a hard time not feeling the anger that comes from worrying they're making people who are on my "side" of the debate look like jerks by proxy.
That, and the fact that once the topic is introduced to a thread, that's what the thread is suddenly only about, like Agent Smith poking his hand into someone and turning them into Agent Smith. I can see how everyone who wanted to talk about, oh, Harris's campaign strategy vis a vis the Midwestern states, or Walz's use of "weird" or any of a hundred other campaign related topics might get really frustrated because every single thread about the campaign gets turned into The Thread About Gaza, Part 4012. So the mods' proposed compromise - carve out a space where Gaza talk can happen without turning every politics thread into The Thread About Gaza, Part NNNN, makes a kind of sense to me.
I think the Agent Smith thing happens because this is an intense issue about some really horrifying stuff and it's easy for tempers to get hot, and also easy for folks to import their baggage from the rest of the world to the thread. It's also easy, when folks have been jerks, to have a harder and harder time not misreading them; I know I've had to take a breath more than once because someone who's been a jerk has actually said something useful but on my first read I couldn't see it, due to my past experience of them.
I continue to be surprised that people simultaneously paint the mods as some kind of censorious group while also deliberately and proudly constantly pushing the boundaries they set, as if the conversations we have here are so important that you can't wait a couple days to get a Meta thread approved.
No one from the Harris campaign is reading these threads. Some of us may change the world; none of that will be because of what we write here. There is just no urgency. So when the mods say "for now, post I/P content on this thread, and discuss with us over email or in Meta" why not just abide by that til the meta issue gets resolved? Is it that important that people who don't want to discuss a topic be made to witness it being discussed?
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 3:23 PM
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Counterpoint: why can't the people who only care about vibes just ignore posts linking to information about policy positions? In a 1000+ comment thread it seems like it'd be pretty easy to ignore a few relevant, on-topic posts that piss you off.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:36 PM
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Especially since there are a bunch of vibes FPPs still on the home page.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:42 PM
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The main result of this policy turns out to be a bunch of "Trump would be worse" types wandering out of the vibes threads into the I/P threads to harangue everyone, so, possibly the group the mods are pouring their disfavor onto are not actually the problem group?
This is where the propensity to put the thumb on the scale to favor Hippybear type users really fails the site IMHO.
posted by Artw at 3:51 PM
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I think the comparison to anti-abortion protestors is not accurate.
With anti-abortion, their are a lot of differences on matters of fact and morality that are extremely fundamental. Depending on the motivations of the debaters you can run into things like what makes a human life valuable, what is the role of suffering in morality, and how far bodily autonomy extends. Trying to bridge those gaps in one on one discussions over a political issue is basically intractable.
With a very few exceptions, I don't think there is anyone in the MetaFilter conversations around the presidential election and the genocide in Gaza who disagree with the idea that the genocide is bad, that choosing to arm the Israeli military is making things worse, and that we would like Trump as far from political power as possible.
The divisions are not deep paradigmatic questions. They are questions about what values should or shouldn't be compromised, and whose interests should take priority. Those are contentious issues, but they aren't intractable points where we share no common ground.
The reason for not putting the content relating to the genocide in a different thread is that it is relevant to the topic of the first thread. When someone says something like "Joe Biden is the greatest president of our lifetime", or something like that, there are solid grounds to make a counterargument. When someone says Kamala Harris is a candidate we can all rally around and feel good about supporting, it is reasonable to bring up the reasons some of us have to maintain very serious qualms.
we aren't changing the world here. But we are having a discussion. If the intent is to actually discuss a topic then it should be open to discussion, in terms of all relevant facts. The president and leader of the party for whom almost all American MeFites will vote being deeply involved in an ongoing genocide and attempting to blunt any international response to it is a big deal. It is going to cast a shadow over a lot of issues.
Ignoring it would be like trying to have a thread about Trump and Vance and saying "but no one bring up reproductive rights". It not only doesn't make sense, it shuts down a huge range of perspectives and responses shaped by how important that element of the campaign is.
If we don't want to have an actual discussion, and the goal is to have a space for encouragement, funny political memes, or generally participating in the social/fannish side of politics, I am unsure if MF is the right space for that, but if it is, just label those spaces properly instead of acting as though they are for potentially critical discussion of candidates in a messy, morally complex, sometimes very contentious political system.
Lastly, my experience is that it is very seldom discussion of Palestine and the genocide that results in derails. It is much more often people insisting that someone not making a promise to vote against Trump right now is a terrible thing, or that discussing the issue is going to make Trump win somehow, or yelling at people for bringing it up and responses to those kinds of posts that wind up choking the comments. It very seldom stays limited to discussion of the circumstances in Gaza or the political responses to them, or even our responses to those responses for very long.
And the same basic kind of responses happen whenever there is criticism on any other front about Harris, Biden, or Walz. Discussion of Harris' career as a prosecutor had very many of the same people who argued over whether it was legitimate to bring up Gaza (including myself) having arguments about whether it was acceptable to criticize her record. That makes me feel as though the issue is not so much between people who want to discuss the campaign in relation to genocide and those who don't, as those who want to be critical of Democrats and those who don't want them to be.
Sorry for the essay, I guess I had a lot of thoughts.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:52 PM
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I couldn't agree with A Most Curious Rabbit's post more. Exactly.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:56 PM
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Wow, pattern juggler, thank you for writing that out. I couldn't have said it any better.
posted by ftrtts at 3:56 PM
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the people who only care about vibes
If you want an example of what the "name-calling, judgementalism, condescension, oversimplification, etc." that A Most Curious Rabbit refers to looks like in practice, there's a prime example.
posted by neroli at 4:32 PM
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I don't really see how this MeTa is going to go well, but I do hope we try not to be too mean to each other.
posted by Kitteh at 5:07 PM
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On principal, I don't like protests being relegated to the "designated protest zone seven blocks away". Relegating all mention of I/P to the "place to discuss I/P" feels like that.
I think it's totally fine to post links, or news, or new commentary related to I/P in more general political threads.
That said, I would rather not have every thread become a restatement of arguments that have already been argued a thousand times before on this site, especially when they are laced with attacks on other members. I am perfectly fine having that moderated away.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:15 PM
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in the latest thread, someone had to point out that Israeli torture camps are a current reality, not a scary hypothetical under a trump administration, as another comment suggested (although it wasn't clear to me exactly what the commenter knew and didn't know). it seems to me that we are not necessarily approaching the discussion from a shared awareness of the most salient basic facts (e.g. people unaware of the systematic torture and sexual abuse of Palestinian hostages by their Israeli captors might take a different view from people unaware of that). which is why the people who have been curating news relentlessly and to very high standards (if this MeTa gets too contentious I move to make it into a cendawanita appreciation thread instead, at least we can all agree on that, I hope) should not be siloed off in a thread that everyone can ignore but then still feel entitled to an opinion elsewhere while being unaware of basic and vital facts. so like either we talk about genocide in Palestine where relevant in arbitrary US politics threads or otherwise (much worse option) we don't, but in exchange the covered-ears crowd stays the fuck out of the Gaza threads if they don't want to learn.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:18 PM
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I continue to be surprised that people simultaneously paint the mods as some kind of censorious group while also deliberately and proudly constantly pushing the boundaries they set
because they are outrageously biased on this one particular topic, and here we are, and wherever you happen to be, you shouldn't let bullshit slide if there's literally no cost to pushing back. I dunno if your irl circumstances have forced you to talk/think about the genocide regularly, but mine have and many others' here probably have (in more serious ways), and what I learned is that I need to pin down what people really think because people get ratfucked for their beliefs on this matter in ways I would previously have found unbelievable. including by people superficially on the right side. and the mods' weird behaviour on this topic is a major eyebrow-raiser; hopefully they'll chime in about their approach here and disabuse me of those suspicions.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:37 PM
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Busted_crayons, ignorant scary hypotheticals about I/P should be deleted. Flag it.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:44 PM
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the people who only care about vibes
If you want an example of what the "name-calling, judgementalism, condescension, oversimplification, etc." that A Most Curious Rabbit refers to looks like in practice, there's a prime example.
If you're going to go for an early MeTa gotcha, maybe don't actively be the thing you're critiquing as you're critiquing it.
The entirety of the sentence you snipped:
I also think this community has members who are bad at talking about it, and continually resort to name-calling, judgementalism, condescension, oversimplification, etc.
You're not name calling. I'll give you that. But the rest? Check check check for you. Unless you and your favoriteers thought this was an example of you being good at talking about these things? That would explain some of the disconnect on these topics.
(Disclaimer: I didn't say I was good at talking about these things. Just matching energies.)
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:48 PM
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busted_crayons, your experience IRL sounds awful, and possibly painful, and I'm just extending my sympathies. I hope you're doing ok.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 5:49 PM
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We can't even have a thread of less than two dozen comments without it becoming members going after other members. That's why I'm OK with moving those comments to an I/P thread unless it directly relates to something going on in the campaign. It's been happening in thread after thread. Over and over. Usually confined to just a small group of people. The genocide is an important issue the campaign should be pressured on at all times until it stops. But this site is not the campaign. Making every single political thread about it does not help anyone at all and just makes us pissed at each other.
posted by downtohisturtles at 6:19 PM
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Do we want to give veto power to anyone willing to start fights about topics they don't want discussed, though?
posted by pattern juggler at 6:26 PM
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I for one like the idea of the separate thread, because the response to criticizing a favored establishment democrat on nearly any policy, results in derailing as half the site girds its loins to explain why you are wrong, the candidate is right, everything is good and nothing can ever change--and this only gets louder and more tense when the topic is genocide. So it would be nice to have a thread where you could just, like, discuss the problem without the inevitable trumpwouldbeworse. Like, a carefully moderated thread where anyone making a vibes-based argument would have their comment deleted as a derail. But then the problem is, we've had a metastasis of political threads lately, way too many to keep up with. More threads than there is news, really.
Still...yes. Let there be a thread where criticism of the candidate and her enablers is the topic and the point. And then people who would prefer a less-dark thread, would still have plenty to choose from.
posted by mittens at 6:33 PM
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Counterpoint: why can't the people who only care about vibes just ignore posts linking to information about policy positions?
I suspect this comment is in re comments like this one; I could be wrong.
posted by phunniemee at 6:39 PM
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phunniemee: Why yes, that user and another user were the two i was thinking of specifically.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:26 PM
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So it would be nice to have a thread where you could just, like, discuss the problem without the inevitable trumpwouldbeworse. Like, a carefully moderated thread where anyone making a vibes-based argument would have their comment deleted as a derail.
mittens: we tried that today and what happened is that immediately several people showed up to lecture us genocide-carer-abouters that we're all terrible people for not shutting up and voting for Democrats because Trump is worse.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:28 PM
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i think that treating I/P as a broad, general topic is a mistake. like if someone in a thread on harris/walz brings up the team's stances on that subject, it's absolutely relevant to the thread. when someone else responds to that information related to that stance, and someone else responds to that, again, relevant. because it's a discussion germane to the platform of the team in particular. diverting people away from discussing a highly important platform position to a larger thread encompassing the general subject runs the risk of their being no discussion of a candidate's policy on a pretty important subject and that seems like not a good idea!
like imagine applying that principle to any of their other platform points, like child care or housing. folks start talking about that but mods tell them to take the discussion to a separate thread on the general subject of those issues? what does that leave us with?
ok that's a slippery slope i admit but you see what i'm getting at? it's a highly contentious topic yes but it is absolutely relevant to the candidates and their campaign. we already have rules against personal attacks and name calling and they can still be applied. i just think it's a mistake to try and sandbox the subject in a whole other thread and pretend it's not relevant to this election
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:35 PM
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In no conceivable universe will the 2024 election be won or lost on Metafilter. In no conceivable universe will the war in Gaza be significantly affected, one way or another, on Metafilter. I feel like maybe we should be required to type out one or both of those statements before the Post Comment button becomes available. Because I think that losing sight of that generates most of the heat.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:38 PM
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i would hope (and do not believe) that folks having this discussion, wherever they stand, aren't harboring any delusions that we are going to fix Gaza or sway the elections here on The Meef
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:47 PM
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we tried that today and what happened is that immediately several people showed up to lecture us genocide-carer-abouters that we're all terrible people for not shutting up and voting for Democrats because Trump is worse
Then maybe don't start the thread with what you don't want?
posted by mazola at 7:58 PM
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In a 1000+ comment thread it seems like it'd be pretty easy to ignore a few relevant, on-topic posts that piss you off.
A few relevant posts about a side topic? Sure.
But when it starts to become every sixth comment and starts to make assumptions about other users' priorities, it is not so easy to ignore.
And frankly, it's not even the topic that has me soured on these discussions itself, it's the increasing accusations from other users that they know better than me what is in the contents of my head, what my priorities are, and what my level of engagement is. If this was a debate about something like how to butter bread or something, and I faced the same kind of bullying, I'd still be this damn frustrated.
And, yes, I said "bullying" and I meant it. I said something to another user in good faith about what I planned to do once Harris was elected, and the response was that "bull fucking shit you're going to do that. You're just going to go to brunch."
How dare you suggest I should just ignore someone who presumes to speak for me, TO me, about ANYTHING. I had enough of teachers and principals telling me I should just ignore bullies, I'm for DAMN sure not going to just ignore them if I am directly accused.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:50 PM
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Yeah, without remembering specific quotes, what gets me about the discussion of I/P policy in US election threads is the high horses of the folks with strong opinions. It all comes off as "if you disagree with me in the slightest, you're a bad person and I'm going to rub your nose in it", which is a disagreeable kind of contribution to the site. Like, please cool your jets here; other Mefites are not your enemy.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:04 PM
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Within a Harris thread, it makes sense to discuss her position and history on Israel and Palestine. It doesn't make sense to talk about Israel and Palestine outside of specifically Harris, Walz, their history and their campaigns. Anything general on Israel and Palestine should go in its own thread. Also, there seems to have been a heavy amount of Israel-Palestine material, which could have overwhelmed the rest of the thread.
posted by NotLost at 9:28 PM
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Hi hi, hello how is everyone - happy to report that the quarantine is going along superbly, the DNC thread is now in full party mode while the also relevant sit-in outside the convention hall gets zero mention.
posted by cendawanita at 11:15 PM
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Blows my mind how some folks will shake their heads at the way security and law enforcement want to physically cordon off protesters into designated free speech zones, far from anyplace where they can be seen or heard from the people they're trying to reach, and then eagerly embrace exactly the same approach when it comes to a messageboard online.
I/P policies of the incoming administration belong right next to all the other discussions of policies of the incoming administration, in the threads about the incoming administration.
The problem is not the presence of the content or discussion. The problem is a handful of members being frankly shitty to each other and there are both Palestine supporters and don't-harsh-my-vibes people engaging in shittiness. FIAMO used to be a valid approach, but with reduced mod coverage there's no telling whether or when a flagged comment will be removed and the longer the shittiness sticks around, the more it appears acceptable for more folks to engage in shittiness.
I don't have a solution, other than to note that isolation feels like a terrible solution. It might help, but it's just shoving the problem under the rug. The real solution is probably for everybody to take a step back and get some air once in a while, and to bear in mind that vitriol on Metafilter doesn't accomplish a goddamn thing except making this place worse for everyone, but people have already been saying that, exactly that, over and over, and it has zero impact. So fuck if I know what to do about it.
I'm heartsick about Gaza, but I've stopped talking about it online, in fact basically stopped talking about it to anyone anywhere, because there's no one I can talk to and nothing I can say that will make a damn bit of difference, least of all here on Metafilter.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:41 PM
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As someone reading both threads, I am glad they both exist. I've learned more from this IP thread than from many previous.
And I've gotten to hear about other aspects of the convention and campaign thread. The two spaces are serving different needs. Ok.
I am concerned that multiple threads is extra moderation burden, but I assume the mods would tell us if that's true.
I'm not as concerned about isolation, since it is easy for me to read and participate in both threads.
posted by nat at 11:45 PM
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Hi hi, hello how is everyone - happy to report that the quarantine is going along superbly, the DNC thread is now in full party mode while the also relevant sit-in outside the convention hall gets zero mention.
Keep on rockin' in the free world!
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 11:50 PM
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Blows my mind how some folks will shake their heads at the way security and law enforcement want to physically cordon off protesters into designated free speech zones, far from anyplace where they can be seen or heard from the people they're trying to reach, and then eagerly embrace exactly the same approach when it comes to a messageboard online.
I think this is kind of one of my main problems with identifying policy criticism of Harris on this subject as a "derail" so everyone can go back to vibes based cheering. When that happens, it kind of feels kind of like the powers-that-be have *agreed* that campaign threads are going to be vibes based cheering, instead of the complex melange of people having complex feelings about the campaign and the candidates.
And I do feel like "stick the annoying pinkos in the Free Speech Box" is not exactly the vibe I either want or am used to seeing on Metafilter.
posted by corb at 11:51 PM
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It feels important to note that MetaFilter has been weird about moderating posts on Palestine and its occupation for many years. If we look at just one MetaTalk thread from May 2023, the mods characterize Israel/Palestine threads as being a drain on mod resources and having a "longstanding dynamic," but also repeatedly denying that there is a specific policy for posts on this topic. To add to the confusion, longtime members - even those generally sympathetic to the mods - colloquially refer to it as a ban.
posted by ftrtts at 12:46 AM
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Yeah honestly I'm responding to the historical context: for years there was a defacto ban on posts about Israel and Palestine here.. or to be fair, an extremely high bar, with the justification being that they all turn into flamewars. I am therefore invested in not having these threads be flamewars now that they are allowed.
I will say in the DNC thread, there we people on both sides who escalated to personal attacks and posting the same basic thing over and over. In my preferred world those folks would be asked to step back and make room for other comments.. we have made our points and there are diminishing returns after a while... rather than picking one side and suggesting they take their discussion to another thread.
I recognize that takes more moderation than we might have, hence why I suggest that folks attempt to do some self regulation. I sometimes think someone else's comment is infuriating, ludicrous, or personally insulting but if I continue to escalate and get increasingly personally insulting I'm making the thread useless for everyone else.
Also, mods are people not some random cops or something. We have the opportunity to get more involved in the running of this site if we desire to share the work.
posted by latkes at 2:16 AM
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busted_crayons, your experience IRL sounds awful, and possibly painful, and I'm just extending my sympathies. I hope you're doing ok.
i appreciate that, A Most Curious Rabbit. i am doing ok. i don't want to dramatise. i have been involved in the academic/cultural boycott movement because i work in a sector that creates an obligation to be involved in that. this turns out not to be a majority position in my work/social milieu but one gets put in the position of defending it (and it's kind of a pointless exercise unless one sometimes tries to get others involved and hence volunteers for a certain amount of conflict).
i have not personally suffered any of the really bad consequences, but i have a bunch of friends who are more brave and sophisticated, and hence more outspoken, and who have been given a very hard time in various (life-destabilising, often racist) ways. i have also discovered that plenty of people whom i previously respected and counted as friends/mentors/etc. --- including extremely erudite people whose level of access to knowledge removes all possible excuses --- turn out to have entire impenetrable worldviews built around fanatical devotion to israel and what turns out to be unreconstructed racism when one pokes at it conversationally. people with whom you agreed it's a pointless topic --- "let's just stick to the work we have to do" --- but then they say "they need to kill another 100,000" next to you in a public place so you have to either throw down (verbally) or be seen letting that shit fly.
there are also more normal people who don't really see what's wrong with those people, too, and who sometimes turn out to agree with them quietly and privately, at least on certain odious points, or who bend over backwards making excuses to avoid emotional discomfort.
there are big demographic and cultural and political overlaps between that community and (my perception of) MeFi, and it is undoubtedly the case that some of the suspicion i have learned to adopt when it comes to having to talk about the genocide with people I have to deal with IRL carries over to how i engage on MeFi.
so it is really difficult to empathise with people who appear not to appreciate that our collective complicity and the heterogeneity of our beliefs and feelings on an urgent and actually morally uncomplicated matter create conditions where conflict is inevitable and we shouldn't be squeamish about it, or overly careful. it's also really hard to empathise with people who keep saying that everyone here is in broad agreement on the right and wrong of the situation when, having followed most of the relevant threads more or less closely, i've seen many, many comments that plainly contradict that.
what i imagine is that there are a bunch of other mefites who've been way more involved in palestine solidarity activism than i have, who have seen the incredible level of gaslighting and victimisation it attracts in much more detail than i have. and there are probably mefites who are watching their own families, instead of just their friends' families, suffer under grievous state crimes while most of the world dithers. if someone in one of those categories wants to tell me to change my approach, i am absolutely all ears.
posted by busted_crayons at 2:47 AM
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One of the biggest problems with this issue is that there is no middle ground. You simply cannot eradicate a people. And the political administration currently incumbent is directly supporting and funding this mass destruction of a swathe of humanity and its history, legacy, culture, and its future in the form of infants.
This is the issue.
And in the context of this website, moderating any kind of sane discussion this ridiculously insane real world ongoing issue must be a nightmare.
The worst part is that for observers with access to news feeds uncurated by the American media/jurisdiction/politics/administration whathave you i.e. your filter bubble, such as, for example, cendawanita, cannot help but observe an entire nation's discourse online wholly and completely hijacked with trivialities of an election campaign WITHOUT any discussion or connection to the above mentioned horrorshow that the political administration is perpetuating and defending.
The dissonance, and the lack of self-awareness, and the image created on the world stage is impossible to synthesize across numerous threads.
In one way, this metatalk thread is a good place to weave all this together and say WTF guys, just WTF
and that perhaps is the basis of the antagonism against the moderation - which, as any longstanding observer of this site can tell, is simply following very well established longstanding procedures and responses
and if y'all talk about elect harris so we stop genocide, who is asking how many more babies are dead by January?
I think at the end of it all, if it ever ends, is to step back and separate metafilter and its mods from the overarching horrorshow that is a daily traumatization of anyone simply browsing online
I don't know what my point is, except to say let's not fall apart here and destroy the site over this nightmare IRL
posted by infini at 4:08 AM
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I don't care care which thread Israel/Palestine discussion goes in. I don't care if comments get deleted, either, even though some that I'd put time and thought into have been removed. I'd much rather be on a moderated site than an unmoderated one, even if I don't always agree with the moderation decisions.
I just don't like being told I'm in favor of genocide all the time. It's hard not to rreact to that accusation. I wish there could be some presumption of good faith.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:35 AM
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OnceUponATime, since I think I said something that you took as an accusation, I want to clarify: I don't know or keep track of what you or most others think in your private thoughts about genocide, per se. because, contra some woolly-headed liberal fictions that serve no purpose other than to disempower most people, the beliefs an individual holds personally are politically irrelevant unless they motivate or inform some action which, at my (and presumably your) level of personal power, probably is at best participation in some kind of collective action. i am personally hamstrung by indecision and fear about that sort of activity, a lot of the time.
my opinion and your opinion mean absolutely fuck all in a public context except to the tiny extent that they can be instrumentalised, or to the probably larger extent that it may make some readers feel less alienated or alone, or more motivated to find some way to act, to see them expressed (my main motivation for commenting on the matter here is the latter).
the way i feel or don't feel about you doesn't matter. my opinion of the purity of your feelings is wholly irrelevant. it is not even negative; i wasn't talking about you; i don't know who you are other than the MeFite who made a good comment about the horrors in Sudan that unlike other such comments did not read to me as misdirection. i promise i'm not judging you or anyone else individually. i'm not even thinking about you. don't worry about it.
by analogy, someone spuriously accused me of antisemitism in one of the threads yesterday (it got deleted). i'm not an antisemite but i'm not going to worry about that (i didn't flag it) because i know what actual weaponisation of that accusation looks like and some throwaway dumbfuckery on metafilter dot com ain't it. eyes on the prize here.
the line i have repeatedly taken is: "opposing genocide" isn't just something one can say one does. it's not an attitude. it's an activity. random people like me and, most likely, you, have very little scope to actually do it. the US government has more scope to do it. being opposed to genocide entails at least refraining from condemning people who are trying to get one of the parties with actual power to do something. it's not possible to condemn those efforts and also oppose genocide. i didn't say that criticising protesters makes one morally equivalent to literal ben-gvir or whatever someone might have read into my comments. i do think there's a moving train and an enormous temptation in this community and in many like it to try to stay neutral. IME being obnoxious is actually pretty effective for countering that.
infini: flagged as fantastic.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:14 AM
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I think the dynamic goes like this: "I support Harris" "Okay but Harris is not doing enough to stop the genocide. She doesn't care." "I think she does. Here are some other explanations for her behavior." "I find those explanations unconvincing. It seems more likely to me that she and her supporters just really don't care that much about genocide." "Well, I do care. Let me try to explain my position." --- and then a whole string of deleted comments.
So people who are mad at Harris feel like they're not allowed to criticize her Israel/Palestine policy. Meanwhile people who support Harris feel like they are constantly getting criticized for supporting her.
It's exhausting, repetitive, and unproductive.
I'm not sure about the solution, though, since nobody is really doing anything wrong in the example I came up with there. (The real life versions can get a bit more personal than that!)
I know I should probably resist the bait, not try to defend Harris. But it's hard, because I am scared of Donald Trump, and she is our only hope of defeating him. And I guess I don't believe that our discussions on Metafilter change nothing. The internet is a big part of campaigns now. Memes can start anywhere and spread. If you really believe that your criticism doesn't have any effect, why bother doing it?
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:20 AM
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I'm not sure about the solution, though, since nobody is really doing anything wrong in the example I came up with there. (The real life versions can get a bit more personal than that!)
A customizeable mute button we can turn on and off for certain other people we repeatedly lock horns with would be awesome. Alternately, a list on the MeFi Wiki of other third-party extensions for various browsers that do the same thing would also be helpful. I used to use one for Chrome that they no longer support and I've been looking in vain for another Chrome option.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:12 AM
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There's some information in this reddit thread on a couple of scripts to block Metafilter users. They are a bit fiddly though. I use the tampermonkey/diediedead solution as it blocks comments completely. Mute-a-filter only greys them out so they're harder to see (and only works on Firefox).
They're worth looking into though, it's amazing how much more pleasant MetaFilter becomes if you just block two or three of the worst commenters.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:33 AM
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Hi hi, hello how is everyone - happy to report that the quarantine is going along superbly, the DNC thread is now in full party mode while the also relevant sit-in outside the convention hall gets zero mention.
FWIW I'm reading the "US Response to Gaza" thread (and the DNC thread; and this one).
posted by mazola at 7:05 AM
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Mute-A-Filter kept me from buttoning this week. Adding the ability to mute individual users would probably get me donating to the site again. From my perspective as a mostly-lurker, 99% of the discussion on the site is just fine no matter what thread it happens in; it's just a very small subset of users who have a particular talent for phrasing things in a way that re-centers whatever discussion is happening around them and turns it into a fight against anyone who dares to discuss any issue other than the liberation of Palestine. I think it's important too! I am in 100% agreement that the US should impose an immediate ceasefire and arms embargo, and I don't even think that's a very controversial opinion here. It is very tedious, however, to see other users (who, as it has been previously pointed out, are very unlikely to have any real power or decision-making authority in this area) constantly taken to task for caring about other issues too, or possibly wanting to experience some small scrap of fun or joy or hope or optimism. There's no reason discussions of multiple issues can't happen in parallel in the same thread, and they mostly do without problems, until someone shows up to take a dump in the punch bowl. I get that the point of a protest is to be disruptive, but I don't think MetaFilter is a very effective place to spend that kind of energy, and the way it ends up playing out here hurts the site more than it helps the cause.
posted by jordemort at 7:14 AM
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The constant threadshitting in the quarantined Gaza FPPs is a stark contrast to this meta.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:26 AM
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constantly taken to task for caring about other issues too, or possibly wanting to experience some small scrap of fun or joy or hope or optimism.
It me!
I would very much like for there to not be dead children and adults happening on the daily in Gaza; I am not an idiot, and I can be very upset that we aren't doing more to stop the slaughter, but on the other hand? I can also be more at ease with younger Presidential candidate, and I feel that we can totally pressure her before, during, and after this campaign. But I refuse to feel bad for wanting to find some joy in the world full stop.
posted by Kitteh at 7:42 AM
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i appreciate that, A Most Curious Rabbit. i am doing ok.
I am glad to hear it, busted_crayons. Thanks for the personal history, and thank you everyone who's added historical and personal context to this thread. It has both helped me understand some people's stances, and prompted me to reflect on how my own history is brought to bear here. I don't have much more to say right now, but I find it interesting that this thread is going a lot better than the actual political threads.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 7:56 AM
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There are many posters who have said "put up or shut up" regarding the campaign, and see that as a perfectly acceptable stance. There does seem to be a contingent of people who think it's morally wrong to pressure her during this campaign.
posted by sagc at 8:05 AM
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There is a wide spectrum of what people think, I think.
posted by mazola at 8:13 AM
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I think the dynamic goes like this: "I support Harris" "Okay but Harris is not doing enough to stop the genocide. She doesn't care." "I think she does. Here are some other explanations for her behavior." "I find those explanations unconvincing. It seems more likely to me that she and her supporters just really don't care that much about genocide." "Well, I do care. Let me try to explain my position." --- and then a whole string of deleted comments.
QFT. This was a conversation that could make people think more about their positions and actions once or twice, but the constant round-and-round has made me resort to Mute-a-Filter, something I have been ideologically against in the past. The fact that people in the good-vibes thread feel constantly attacked AND people in the Gaza genocide thread also feel attacked means that both sides need extra moderation and there's not enough moderation to go around, or clear rules that the mods can follow.
As we go forward into a community driven future at MeFi, I think we can't rely on paid staff to take the lead in moderating every FPP. I don't want us to turn into Reddit, where some corners are world-class and some are cesspools. But I would love to see some experimentation with threads that have a point of view and are moderated by the original poster, or a team chosen by them, with mods in a more supervisory role. In most cases that would mainly just prevent normal threadshitting. In cases like this, it could certainly result in more siloing and echo-chamber threads. But that is probably preferable to active fighting, muting, buttoning, deletions that make threads unreadable, and mods who burn out.
In the meantime I will try to remember not to take the bait. It's hard, because it wouldn't be bait if it wasn't designed to look so juicy and available. But taking the bait never ends well, no matter how many great, well-sourced, reasonable points you make.
posted by rikschell at 8:49 AM
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But those energies are the ones that's leading us to this MeTa no? No point bringing in the calm voices or even lurking ones. Not even a "cut it out, let them have it,". We're seeing it rn in the DNC thread - people seems to suddenly find the couth to reroute past the Uncommitted news link and continue feeling good.
ETA: picking up on mazola's point
posted by cendawanita at 8:51 AM
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Echoing what's been said by others, I think IP issues relevant to any particular thread should absolutely be allowed.
And yes, thread-jacking should be halted.
The only real problems I've seen, and this is evergreen on the Blue, are the grinding, fruitless repetitions of arguments and positions, and the casual insults and unnecessary personal attacks . . . which aren't mod issue, or at least shouldn't be.
It's a respect and self-awareness issue.
I've been a mostly lurker for almost 20 years, and I deeply appreciate reading mefites' passionate positions and sharing their intense feelings, but some just want to have free rein to actively be insulting and to piss people off, and that, to me, has never been ok, nor should it be.
It's emotional narcissism and unproductive, and being told to ignore it is just dodging personal responsibility.
You just don't build a better world by being an asshole.
Anyway, glad for this MeTa and grateful for this community.
posted by pt68 at 8:57 AM
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opposing genocide" isn't just something one can say one does. it's not an attitude. it's an activity.
I think this is actually a large part of the ideological difference between users, and I think it's one that is causing a lot of what seems, at least to me, to be the part of the fights that get deleted. I tend to fall on the side of "it's an activity", but I know there are people who feel that "agreement" is enough. And so two things happen. First, when talking about the Harris campaign, some folks want to say things like "well, I'm sure she agrees in her heart that this is wrong, she's on the right *side* of the issue", while other people are arguing that she hasn't done anything to tangibly actually stop the killing, and could have. And that harshes the squee of Harris as The Good Candidate Who Will Save Us All.
And secondly, I see a lot of "well, we all agree here that we oppose genocide." But we *don't* all agree that we collectively oppose the genocide, in an activity rather than a statement. A lot of people are arguing that we should stop activities that oppose genocide, which doesn't feel much like we are opposing genocide together. And it really feels like in a lot of threads that people want those of us involved in Gaza activism or activity to accept that starting premise in order to participate. And I don't feel like that's a reasonable request. Things like *that* seem like things that should be deleted, not commentary about how the campaign interacts with the genocide.
posted by corb at 9:02 AM
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corb, I would take it one step further and say that from what I've read over the past couple of weeks, it's not clear that there's agreement about the genocide part of it, either.
posted by Captaintripps at 9:09 AM
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If you really believe that your criticism doesn't have any effect, why bother doing it?
Nationally famous quote from someone my grandfather's elder brother once followed into the path that led to freedom
posted by infini at 9:27 AM
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For just about everyone else on the planet, debating whether mass destruction of a society is genocide or not is rather like Clinton pondering the meaning of *is* or whatever it was so long ago...
posted by infini at 9:29 AM
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The whole "let me speak for the Earth for (to) you" thing is definitely part of the tediousness.
posted by Wood at 9:41 AM
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Posting isn't praxis, and acting like it is when resolving interpersonal conflicts will result in: unresolved interpersonal conflicts.
posted by Jarcat at 10:15 AM
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There seems to be a kind of is/ought issue. I notice it from "the other side" but it may well be aymmetrical.
The usual patteen is someone praising a Democrat, a critic responding to that praise, and the first poster responding with something like " so you think Trump is better? "
Some posters seem to view posting as a way of encouraging right action.. The right action is to vote against Trump. So anything critical of Democrats must be intended to discourage voting against Trump. What you post is expected to reflect what you will do.
Others see discussion as a. expression of ones thoughts, and feel no contrasiction between saying a politician is a terrible person and voting tactically anyway.
Of course, some people simply do not ontend to vote. for anyone who jas abetted genocide, and if they asmit that it is treated as a personal attack on Biden or Harris supporters that needs to be repented of. That isn't great either.
posted by pattern juggler at 10:31 AM
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I haven't seen anyone on this site "well, actually"-ing whether Gaza is genocide lately. It certainly is, and I would hope comments denying that would be deleted. What seems to be at issue is (A) whether Kamala Harris has any power to stop or stall the genocide before January 20 and (B) irrespective of A, would Harris making a strong anti-genocide statement as soon as possible help or hurt her campaign. There are also people arguing that irrespective of B, the only proper and moral choice Harris has is to immediately make a strong anti-genocide statement, EVEN IF it tanks her campaign and we end up with Trump.
While I think there's a lot of room for respectful disagreement on A and B, I believe it's the last argument that really drives people up the wall, and I'm not sure we can even reasonably talk about why that is without starting another round of the same battles. People have dug in on their positions and feel like it's an existential question on both sides. When people feel their lives are threatened, they understandably get defensive.
posted by rikschell at 10:34 AM
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Far more encompassing a view than "let me only see the world through Murican eyes".
posted by infini at 10:42 AM
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I feel like I should also point out that people can usually tell when you're disdainful and judgmental of them, so doubling down on that really makes it look like you're just spoiling for a fight, not trying to communicate ideas and change minds.
posted by Jarcat at 10:49 AM
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I also think there's a distinction to be made between two actions:
1) posting an informative link in the main convention thread, such as the one Captaintripps put in a few minutes ago
2) commenting in the main thread (or really anywhere) that other posters are pro-genocide.
The first doesn't attack fellow posters. The second does, and people respond in kind.
Similarly in the current IP campaign issues thread, posting something informative is different from accusing fellow mefites of antisemitism or of not caring about the hostages.
I guess I also think that in both cases, telling other posters that they are either pro-genocide or anti-Semitic is not *useful*. It doesn't convince anyone, just makes a lot of noise. Maybe most of us are not pro-genocide, and we just disagree about the best way to get to that outcome (or about the importance of getting less-genocide vs the obtainability of no-genocide.) Hopefully most of us are not antisemitic, and instead we instead are capable of making a distinction between Jewish people and the actions of a Jewish state currently controlled by its own extremist element.
The problem is that it's much faster to post a personal attack, or to post in response to a perceived attack, then it is to post a well-thought-out analysis (your own or found elsewhere). So the attacks and counterattacks can easily fill up a thread before the thoughtful analysis has time to breathe.
I view the separation as giving that breathing time. Maybe this thread is serving a similar purpose.
posted by nat at 10:58 AM
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For a very long time I have been struggling... with everything. But especially politics. So when Harris became the nominee and polls (yeah, I know) and the press started being a little brighter, I needed a place for vibes. I needed that thread. I am not ignorant of the genocide or the atrocities occurring in the Middle East. But to folks like me, it feels like every thread about vibes becomes about I/P.
This is what it feels like to me:
Me: Yay, a thread about puppies!
Metafilter: You know who don't get to enjoy puppies, the children being murdered in Gaza.
I get it. I feel it all very deeply. As do many others. But I am so sick and tired of not having any happy moments on MetaFilter anymore. The world is horrible, but not all of us come to Metafilter to beat a drum grind an ax, or attempt to solve the world's problems.
Is it really that hard to use a thread dedicated to something you feel strongly about (I/P) to discuss that topic? Is it so hard to heed the requests from the moderators to not discuss those topics in a one thread because many of us are flagging those comments and there is a thread for those discussions?
I'll see myself out. Good luck to others who may be struggling.
posted by terrapin at 11:46 AM
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It is impossible to honestly discuss politics and maintain an unremittingly positive atmosphere. There are sites that are deliberately built to provide encouragement and positive news about the campaign. The subreddit for Kamala Harris' campaign, for example. They aren't places that have any real diversity of background or viewpoints, however and the discussion is very shallow. I think MetaFilter becoming one of those places would be a loss.
There is a lot of happiness to be found on MetaFilter. There are all sorts of FPPs about art, history, games, and just silly little websites to play with. You probably won't find a lot of happiness in discussions centering around an administration supporting a genocidal regime opposed by an even worse candidate directly supported by fascists. The situation just isn't light hearted.
I won't speak to the viability of finding happiness or mental wellbeing in politics. I will say I don't think MetaFilter can nor should try to be responsible for anyone's emotional balance. We can try to warn about potential traumatic content and to be sensitive, but a web forum isn't a replacement for therapy or community support, and even if it could be, the needs of someonw who is looking to feel joy about US politics are going to run headlong into the needs of people who are dealing with the horrors that result from US policy.
A focused thread about some aspect of the campaign could plausibly have a fixed and positive tone. An FPP about a policy position, or some superficial aspect of the campaign, like the performers at the DNC, or some particular group of volunteers or supporters would likely be both positive and would be narrow enough in scope not to touch foreign policy.
But if the topic is something like the Harris campaign as a whole, the Biden-Harris administration, or the DNC then there is no way a genuine discussion can be had that doesn't include the struggle within the party to end support for genocide to some degree.
posted by pattern juggler at 12:20 PM
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One way that I've looked at this: there has been a shift to evaluate the effect of an action (or lack thereof) as opposed to the intention with which it was committed. I think this is great, but this discussion seems directly to stem from this.
The people who want to talk about Gaza will say something like "I don't care about your opinions on genocide, the effect of you ignoring this is that more people will die, and that's unconscionable." I think they're right about this.
The people who want good vibes will say something like "I do care about genocide, but criticism of the ticket right now has the effect of electing Trump, and that's unconscionable." I think they're right about this too.
I think if you accept one of these, you have to accept both -- posting cannot simultaneously matter and not matter when discussing these topics. This leave two options: choosing to ignore an active genocide in the hopes that you can stop it later to prevent an increase in fascism in the US, OR try to stop an active genocide and hope that your efforts don't result in an increase in fascism in the US. This is an awful choice, and goes back the comment someone made upthread about trying to put a sane framework over an insane world.
I think what drives people up the wall and sends things off the rails is when a counterparty wants to selectively ignore these relationships based on what they care about. E.g. "I'm not ignoring a genocide, but you are helping to elect Trump" (or the inverse).
I don't think this provides any clarity with how to handle these discussions, but framing it in this way has made me less angry at the people posting when lurking in these threads.
posted by yeahwhatever at 1:10 PM
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Remind me not to mention to anyone who needs a stream of good vibes my certainty that Fetterman is going to switch parties after November if the Senate remains close.
posted by mediareport at 1:21 PM
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There is a lot of happiness to be found on MetaFilter.
It looks like terrapin left Metafilter entirely, though, so they won't be seeing it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:21 PM
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This past week, I have generally attempted to avoid participating in the various MeFi threads related to the Harris campaign, the DNC, etc. I have to say, it has been refreshing not to have to wade through a lot of grar in order to enjoy the more uplifting comments. That said, this past week has really given me the opportunity to reflect on what I used to like about MeFi: that it was a place to find interesting new internet content, curated for discussions in which we often had very knowledgeable folks weighing in with their experienced perspectives. When MeFi does this, it's still the best of the internet.
That said, those of us who were a part of the political threads in 2016 learned, along with the site moderators, that there are just "some things that MeFi does not do well." Chief among them are highly charged political (or sociological, or religious) debates in which some parties use the discussion threads as a place to proselytize for their particular views. Few people appreciate being evangelized to, whether it's about veganism or Christianity or whatever, even while we support others' right to embrace those views. Trying to moderate those discussions is an extraordinary burden, particularly given the activist mentality of many folks who engage in those debates.
In 2020, in large part due to the moderation burden, the moderators made a judgment call and basically put the kibosh on open US politics megathreads, asking folks to tailor discussions more specifically. And they've had a longtime policy of asking folks to not engage in those highly charged "things we do not do well" debates. The result in 2020 was that those of us who still wanted to discuss and debate US politics found other forums to do it, whether it was Slack, Reddit or some other space. And you know what? That worked out pretty well!
What it taught me, and what the past month has reminded me, is that MeFi isn't really some golden unicorn of a digital space where only erudite exchange of ideas takes place. It suffers from some of the same problems of many other forums, including participants who have different notions of comity, and different ideas of when their own priority issues warrant pushing the boundaries of the forum culture. Many other forums have learned long ago that being able to mute/block other users actually builds comity, because it permits people to engage with the community in the way they would like, rather than to constantly be asked to "just scroll past" highly insulting invective.
The comments have been deleted now, so I can't link to them, but some of the same people who are basically sealioning about why they should be allowed to "just bring up the P/I issue as relevant" are the same people who, over the past few weeks, posted comments that called Joe Biden and Kamala Harris genociders and called Democrats genocide supporters. One commenter, so aggrieved now that their "just raising issues" comments have been deleted, posted a link and excerpted text that said that Democrats liked bombing babies. Those comments rightly resulted in clapbacks from many MeFites, which then resulted in those provocateurs and their supporters disingenuously engaging in some classic DARVO by saying that it was really the comments in response to their highly inflammatory statements that was the real derail.
Let's not kid ourselves: those kinds of comments are absolutely designed to inflame and derail. They are the activist equivalent to burning a flag or a Koran, intended to suck the oxygen out of the room and generate a heated emotional response as they draw attention once again to their issue to the exclusion of all else.
Then we have the other manipulative, passive aggressive language, such as expository comments averring that "I just don't want to see women and children bombed", leaving the implication that, ehhh, maybe others in the thread do?
Anyway, this has been a wonderful exercise and reminder that MeFi is not well equipped to handle this sort of thing. Maybe if the forum had a block function so you could choose to mute recidivists, then it would be less of a chore to wade through/past the cruft to get to the information and commentary you're looking for.
(It's wonderfully ironic that someone suggested, in a now deleted comment, that people who might use such a block function like the smell of their own farts, as that particular accusation is usually more aptly directed to people who absolutely demand to have their opinions aired in a forum even when the majority of those in attendance are not interested.)
Well, anyway. Beyond these meandering thoughts, I'm not sure I have anything more constructive to contribute to MeFi, and it feels like the cost of extracting its benefits has become more than I think my peace of mind can afford to invest. I wish us all good vibes and joy!
And 25 years is a good run!
posted by darkstar at 1:32 PM
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I would really like to never read the term "I/P" again. It was always grossly dismissive, and has never been more so than now when it has come to include an ongoing genocide. It feels like a literal mental shortcut so that people don't have to risk even the possibility of by mistake having a non-automatic thought about this 'issue.'
posted by dusty potato at 1:32 PM
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I'm Jewish and trying to imagine what it would feel like to constantly see people posting about not wanting to have to read about "J/G."
posted by dusty potato at 1:35 PM
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Then we have the other manipulative, passive aggressive language, such as expository comments averring that "I just don't want to see women and children bombed", leaving the implication that, ehhh, maybe others in the thread do?
This seems kind of telling. I read "I just don't want to see women and children bombed" and in no way take away an implication that anyone else does. I think there is a lot of trouble with reading criticism of individual posters from neutral statements, or criticism of Democratic politicians.I think an entirely reasonable argument can be made that Biden at least is culpable for mass murder. When I call him a genocidaire, it isn't to elicit a reaction from his supporters. It is my genuine belief about a person I believe to be the source of a huge amount of needless suffering.It isn't an attack on someone who disagrees with that sentiment.
posted by pattern juggler at 2:14 PM
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The decision to ban I/P discussion from the DNC thread left a bad taste in my mouth.
I first started looking closer at the conflict some twenty years ago at university. I was part of a tiny club dedicated to peace. We invited a speaker who had been to Palestine to talk about what he saw there. As thanks we got heckled at the presentation and our fellow leftists published a zine article calling us anti-Semites. Of course we got off comparatively easy, other people have lost their job or were beat up for standing up for Palestine. These things make it clear, that the smart thing to do in the US and Germany is to shut up about Palestine, especially if you want a career in politics.
On MetaFilter for many years the mantra was "MetaFilter doesn't do I/P well" and that was not wrong. Threads were often fighty and not very productive. But as a result MetaFilter was another place where people shut up about Palestine.
Some of the prominent Zionist voices have since left the site and after October 7. the series of Palestine threads have gone reasonably well I think. They have been helpful to me as an easy place to visit after shutting up about Palestine all day to see that I'm not alone and I'm not crazy to care about this. To be told once again to shut up hurt a bit.
I know that US politics threads have been historically hard on the moderators and I wish no horrors on them. The problems I saw in the DNC thread pre-deletion have been the usual MetaFilter problems; people were trying to score points and extended little grace to their fellow users. I think it's a good idea for everyone to try harder and for the mods to step in when people don't. If we split election discussions into a cheering thread and a criticism thread that would be fine with me.
But splitting Palestine and Palestine alone off into it's own corner as a thing people can't talk about doesn't sit well with me.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 2:36 PM
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I read "I just don't want to see women and children bombed" and in no way take away an implication that anyone else does.
Not even when people use a term like "us genocide-carer-abouters" to distinguish themselves from how they view other members here?
posted by neroli at 2:44 PM
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There are also people arguing that irrespective of B, the only proper and moral choice Harris has is to immediately make a strong anti-genocide statement, EVEN IF it tanks her campaign and we end up with Trump.
While I think there's a lot of room for respectful disagreement on A and B, I believe it's the last argument that really drives people up the wall, and I'm not sure we can even reasonably talk about why that is without starting another round of the same battles.
The thing is, I think that in a thread about a campaign, it is absolutely on topic to talk about what someone should do with the bully platform that campaign gives them, or what their campaign platform should be. Just like in 2000, it would have been on topic for someone in a thread on a Nader campaign to say that they thought he should use his campaign platform to endorse Gore or to ask people in swing states to vote Democrat instead.
I understand it may frustrate people, but asking politicians to publicly oppose genocide is a perfectly reasonable position, and it's perfectly on topic within a campaign thread. And that's the question under discussion - not whether such comments make people happy or sad, but whether they should be counted as derails, as *off topic*. And I don't think "that opinion makes people upset" should make a subject off topic.
posted by corb at 2:46 PM
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If we split election discussions into a cheering thread and a criticism thread that would be fine with me.
I'd say that's the best solution that I've seen here thus far.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:53 PM
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Not even when people use a term like "us genocide-carer-abouters" to distinguish themselves from how they view other members here?
No, because someone else saying something in an entirely different context doesn't make objecting to the murder of innocents inflammatory.
With a handful of exceptions (who seem to be mostly motivated by a juvenile love of hippy punching anyone old enough to be on MetaFilter should have outgrown) I don't think anyone here is actual averse to seeing action taken to end the genocide.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:04 PM
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There are sites that are deliberately built to provide encouragement and positive news about the campaign. The subreddit for Kamala Harris' campaign, for example. They aren't places that have any real diversity of background or viewpoints, however and the discussion is very shallow. I think MetaFilter becoming one of those places would be a loss.
Each thread can be like a subreddit if we want. Metafilter won't become one of those places, a loss. But one thread? That some people don't like? Is fine, and always has been here. If you find the discussion shallow, it isn't for you. It's not that big a deal to me.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:08 PM
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Each thread can be like a subreddit if we want. Metafilter won't become one of those places, a loss. But one thread? That some people don't like? Is fine, and always has been here. If you find the discussion shallow, it isn't for you. It's not that big a deal to me.
Indeed, and having a "good vibes only" political discussion topic seems fine.
I only object to saying you have a thread to discuss a topic and then not permitting a genuine discussion of relevant aspects of the situation.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:10 PM
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I don't think anyone here is actual averse to seeing action taken to end the genocide.
Great! I agree with you. But respectfully, I don't think your view on this is universally shared. I think several of the more vocal posters on this issue absolutely do believe that most people here are averse to ending the genocide, and they themselves are a righteous, embattled minority.
posted by neroli at 3:17 PM
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I suppose those posters can speak for themselves.
I will only say that my impression is that the bit you quoted is a somewhat tongue in cheek response to the exasperating situation of being continuously framed as troublemakers at odds with the larger community for wanting to discuss the ongoing genocide or responses to it in threads where it is relevant, and upon having created a thread to segregate the undesirable conversation, having several folks show up to explain how any action to oppose genocide is stupid, ineffectual, or in support of Hamas.
That handful of exceptions I mentioned are those who seem more interested in shutting down conversation or denigrating efforts at protest, not because of electoral concerns, but antipathy to protestors and those who support them. And in that context, I don't feel it is out of line.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:24 PM
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what someone should do with the bully platform
does the vice president have a bully pulpit, don't think so. this usually refers to the Office of the President but its meaning can be interpreted as one in a position to talk and listen about changes. being vice president, the office has to hold to the president's directives, I think it would be exceedingly difficult for the vice president to parse her policies in with the current Administration if they differ on a great scale.
I too do not think it's a lot to ask, so let's just run a scenario.
"madam vice president do you oppose genocide"
"yes"
"then why..."
problematic of a problematic situation.
dunno but I reminded of part of my favorite poem by Ammons.
"it just goes to: moderation imposed is better
then no moderation at all: we tie
lives of those we love in our lives, then, go as theirs go; they're pain we can't shake off;
their choices, often harming to themselves,
pour through our agitated sleep, swirl
no-nos in our dreams; we rise several times
in a night to walk about; we rise in the
to a crusty world headed no where,
our chests burn with anxiety and a river of
anguish defines rapids and straights in the pits our stomachs: how can we intercede and not interfere: how can our love move more surroundingly,
convincingly that our premonatory advice."
posted by clavdivs at 3:41 PM
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I only object to saying you have a thread to discuss a topic and then not permitting a genuine discussion of relevant aspects of the situation.
And the solution is for mods to allow a different thread for a different aspect. Which they seem to encourage, not sure about the specifics but the solution is to try to make one where the discussion can happen.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:44 PM
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But I feel like a bunch of atomized discussions doesn't add up to a single integrated discussion.
I don't think having a pro-X thread and an anti-X thread is a good idea.
Having a single thread on the topic and if someone wants to create a separate thread with a narrower focus or one with a "no bummers" rule, that means there is still room for nuanced discussion, but it gives people who want a space to generate camaraderie among fellow enthusiasts for given position or candidate their own space.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:47 PM
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Limiting posts/comments per day may be one way of nudging more careful conversation.
(MetaFilter seems best when we post less!) :D
posted by mazola at 4:05 PM
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I would absolutely love it if posters could enable something like Discord's 'slow mode' on certain threads - say each poster gets one or two comments in that thread per day. I learn a lot from the more contentious threads on Metafilter, but when users get into protracted back-and-forths where no one is getting convinced of anything, it's exhausting. If comments were rate-limited, people would still be free to state their opinion, but they would have to be a bit more thoughtful and resist the temptation to directly argue with other users.
posted by catcafe at 4:21 PM
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I mostly read the US election threads without participating, and thought the recurring Gaza arguments were getting worse and repetitive as it became clear that Harris wasn't going to make a big statement.
I hope we don't go back to the old policy of not discussing Palestine here. The US election and US policies re: Israel (and re: atrocities generally) are big topics that could support individual threads, so that seemed like a fine change to me.
Maybe not good long-term policy to quarantine a topic from naturally connected topics - but as a temporary measure to reduce friction between members who are generally acting in good faith, it seemed reasonable.
posted by mersen at 4:32 PM
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But I feel like a bunch of atomized discussions doesn't add up to a single integrated discussion.
I don't see why that is the goal.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:52 PM
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Having normal and relevant parts of discussions not get hidden or atomized seems like a reasonable goal.
posted by Artw at 4:57 PM
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Nothing would be hidden with separate, more focused threads so I still don't see the problem.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:59 PM
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I think it would be great to give the "I want to critique" crowd their own space, and likewise the "I want to feel good" crowd. I dislike the idea of even more political threads here (not my MeFi jam), but I'd like to think that a formulation like this might possibly let people get their bad feels out, before they wander into non-political threads and bring their doom and venom there.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:04 PM
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But I feel like a bunch of atomized discussions doesn't add up to a single integrated discussion.
I don't see why that is the goal.
Just because a discussion that can actually touch on different parts of a subject and how they connect is more interesting and more likely to produce interesting insights in my experience.
posted by pattern juggler at 5:06 PM
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Okay. We can disagree on that. But there's tons of discussions I don't comment on on MeFi, even if I read them. So I don't see the need for one thread on one topic, that's it. One topic can have as many threads as anyone wants, with whatever focus people want. There's not a limit on space here!
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:09 PM
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I think at this stage keeping the peace is better than being interesting. If having separate silos keeps people from buttoning, I'm all for it.
posted by rikschell at 5:12 PM
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a somewhat tongue in cheek response
The problem is that tongue in cheek, sarcasm, snark, etc are far too easy to misread as condescension or meanness, so perhaps we should all work to avoid these kinds of phrasings and framings, especially with this topic, which deserves our seriousness. When I feel frustrated enough to color my post thusly, I take it as a sign it's time to log off for a bit.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 5:16 PM
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I also think this is (for the nth time) getting tied up in knots about something that wouldn't be so much of a problem if we had muting/blocking. It's a basic feature of online discourse today, and MetaFilter suffers--and loses users--because it doesn't offer it.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:30 PM
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Well we have a new site on the way. Which scares me, in case it's so different it's going to turn me off. But it might be the path to better tools.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:32 PM
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I can see the argument against muting, especially as we move into a community run mode. But I've been using it lately and it makes these tough threads manageable.
posted by rikschell at 5:33 PM
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One topic can have as many threads as anyone wants
Except in practice it can't, because the mods will delete them as "near-duplicates" or whatever.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:44 PM
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They seem more open to them these days, from what they've said. I'd like the leniency to increase, to keep the peace.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:46 PM
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Presumably the community will get to decide or at least influence moderation decisions going forward.
posted by rikschell at 5:59 PM
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In my dreams, mods would have the ability to tag comments within a thread as relating to a subtopic/angle, and people could choose to mute just that aspect of the conversation.
Usually I feel bad about these dreams because they seem to imply lots more mod work and that doesn't seem like a great thing to be adding onto, so then I get stuck into thinking about some sort of collaborative tagging, but that leads down the path of, well, there's a reason we have mods, and don't just go for upvotes/downvotes.
It would be kind of interesting to be able to choose your MeFi people and work together to collaboratively tag posts and comments within your group, particularly if it let those groups decide where they drew the line about acceptable/unacceptable topics/interference.
posted by pulposus at 8:18 PM
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Or maybe the way it works is you can choose people whose tagging of things you trust and want to apply out of the gate? I guess this idea has come up before in the same threads where solutions like Mute-a-filter come up, but I like the idea that you don't have to cast a particular user into the sin bin forever, yet you still don't have to do the work of finding their unexpected redemptive moments entirely on your own.
posted by pulposus at 8:26 PM
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Remind me not to mention to anyone who needs a stream of good vibes my certainty that Fetterman is going to switch parties after November if the Senate remains close.
Is there a reason to expect that over him becoming Joe Manchin Lite? I don't get it.
posted by atoxyl at 11:23 PM
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I never wanted MeFi to be a threaded forum, even though I prefer threaded forum software generally, because it seems so much part of the identity of the site for the thread to be one stream of discussion. But I am staring to feel like this kind of thing would be less fraught if it wasn't one stream of discussion!
posted by atoxyl at 11:29 PM
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I also think this is (for the nth time) getting tied up in knots about something that wouldn't be so much of a problem if we had muting/blocking.
This is a simple and obvious practical suggestion and would have saved a lot of trouble over the years.
The other simple and practical suggestion I would suggest is hiding rather deleting comments unless there is some clear need for deletion. This would make the process more transparent and would make the site less choppy where one side of a conversation has been taken out.
posted by Artw at 11:41 PM
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Considering how the site works now, I feel like butting into a conversation to tell off other users for not caring enough should be understood as bad behavior, but taking up some space in a general reaction thread for current events to have a conversation, with other people who are interested in having it, about your unhappiness with the implications for Palestine, should be understood as fine. Talk about things that matter you to, just don't be a dick to other users directly - isn't that basically the mission and code of conduct here?
posted by atoxyl at 11:42 PM
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Either you have a mechanism to filter the various side conversations - and I don't think manually creating more full-size threads with designated purposes for a given issue is that - or you have norms that support having multiple conversations in the thread.
posted by atoxyl at 11:47 PM
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I don't like muting, but I have long wanted slow mode to prevent a few people from dominating threads. As noted above, we have some substantial differences in what it means to oppose genocide, but we wouldn't be having a metatalk about it if we each said our piece and moved on.
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:07 AM
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The other simple and practical suggestion I would suggest is hiding rather deleting comments unless there is some clear need for deletion.
I could see that, too. When I bump into a hidden thread on Reddit, I know what it's likely to mean and thus move on, unless I've got a good reason to dig in.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:18 AM
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Systems thinking hat: Limiting comment speed/amounts will simply result in particularly axe-grindy people developing multiple alts to so they can post more flak. Yes this can be sussed out and the alts nuked but it makes even more work for the mods -- not just with the "solution" not actually reducing the level of flak but also trying to figure out who the alts are and dealing with them. It adds code and complexity while not actually stopping the problem. Sorry.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:59 AM
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My MeFi rule a few years ago became "button when I find myself getting mad at both sides of a conversation," and this was the most recent thing that caused me to bounce. I have a lot of empathy for the two primary perspectives on this issue, and what frustrates me to no end is how there are people on both sides who abjectly refuse to see The Other Side as anything more nuanced than "abject nemesis."
I am staunchly pro-Palestine. I had to fend off a fairly active MeFite who, for months, would pop into my private messages scolding me for referring to Israel's behavior towards Palestine as a "genocide," and accusing me of being a self-hating Jew who was enabling Nazis in America by calling it that. Right now I'm feeling all kinds of pissed off about the DNC not letting a single Palestinian voice be heard.
And at the same time, I absolutely understand why folks in the main political threads saw the I/P discussions as derails. There were a handful of posters—not the majority of people commenting about the situation, even—who had a "take on all comers" approach to talking about the issue, and would reply to everyone who made a comment remotely adjacent to the situation, in ways that came across as combative and frequently delved into "if you're not with us, you're against us" territory. So even when they were contributing useful, relevant information, and even when I agreed with them, you'd get a phenomenon like this:
Original poster: Here's a thing that the Harris campaign did that's sketchy at best, shitty at worst. It makes me feel like they aren't going to lift a finger to stop Israel from eradicating Palestine altogether.
Response A: Well, maybe Kamala has other plans in mind! I'm holding out hope!
Response B: I just don't think she's going to say anything that contradicts Biden before she's president.
Response C: None of us know what's going on behind the scenes. Maybe they're avoiding saying anything publicly to avoid derailing the diplomatic process.
Response D: Yeah, I think that what the campaign is doing sucks ass, and I'm worried that they're going to kill their own vibes by not making room for Palestinian voices. But I'm trying to focus on the things I am optimistic about, because otherwise I'll get sucked into a pit of despair.
Response E: It's terrible, but also, you'd be fooling yourself to think that Trump would be anything but worse.
Original poster: I am going to debate each and every one of you individually, and tell you why your perspective is wrong and unproductive and actively gets in the way of us calling this genocide what it is.
What I saw, over and over again, was a wide variety of MeFites trying to engage with the people talking about Palestine, with varying degrees of "looking on the bright side," "agreeing that this particular thing sucks," and "wanting to acknowledge the situation but also focus on other things," and all of those being met with response after response after response after response after response. It got to the point where I cringed every time I saw a new comment talking about Israel, because I knew that the next 75 comments or so were all going to be this hyperfixation on the subject, with a bunch of posters trying to make room for that subjects while also making room for other subjects, and a few diehards using those posters' interest in the conversation to basically drown out everything else being discussed.
Back-and-forth debate always takes up disproportionate space in MetaFilter threads, even the giant thousand-comment ones, because the default MeFi conversational tone is a kind of ambient "different people throwing out points of interest, thoughts, and feelings" rather than a super-focused "people batting one thing back and forth." How many times have we seen two users going at each other completely derail whatever else was happening in a given thread? Expand those two users to, say, 2-3 diehards on one side and 8-9 more casual responders on the other, and you're left with a huge suckpit that leaves virtually no room for anybody else. This isn't because the diehards are trying to make that happen—it's because the medium itself pretty much guarantees this. (Plenty of forums Back In The Day had rules forbidding users from going back-and-forth at each other in threads, because even a little bit of that effectively replaces all other conversation in a non-threaded discussion.)
The other thing that I think it's important to keep in mind is that the state of Democrat politics exists in the context of all in which we live and what came before this. Democrats being relentlessly pro-Israel has been a thing since forever. Democrats shutting out voices within their own party has also been a thing since forever. Democrats being okay with military brutality and xenophobia? Still also a thing since forever. And all of that sucks ass, it's why nobody's been enthusiastic about a Democrat ticket since Obama, and it's why even Obama sure had a bunch of detractors who hated the whole "hope and change" narrative because they rightly felt like Obama didn't have any big plans to change a lot of the big things that really need changing.
Though that lens, sure, the Democrats still have a lot of depressing, infuriating qualities about them. The Harris campaign isn't changing that overnight. I agree with the progressive political analysts who argue that Harris would probably do better in the polls if she was more aggressive about calling Israel's actions what they are, because a majority of Americans have seen enough to conclude that Israel is in fact doing some awful, awful things.
At the same time, though, there are reasons to feel like the vibes have changed, and like there's hope for things in America to get meaningfully better. There's been a sea change in how relentlessly mainstream America has been going after the MAGA sorts for being weird little creeps, and refusing to acknowledge them like they have a meaningful ideology. There's increasing support for progressive economic policies, increasing criticism of corporate malfeasance, increasing willingness to put labor front-and-center. It is a big deal that Shawn Fain and AOC were given speaking positions. It is a big deal that Josh Shapiro was seemingly passed over as VP in part because of his position on Israel. Hell, it's a big deal that Biden stepped down at all, and that the gerontocracy didn't cling to power with its shriveled, bony fist. The fact that it's even conceivable to feel hopeful about Democrats is pretty amazing, because it felt impossible just six weeks ago.
And while there are some activist personality types who are committed to fighting battles that they know they'll lose 90% of the type, and who find meaning in sticking to their ideals and pushing for whatever change they're capable of enacting, not everyone has it in them to be an activist. Some people are only ever going to get as far as knocking on doors, or working phone banks, or donating to a campaign, or just dragging themselves out of the door to vote. And a lot of people really do need reasons to keep feeling moralized. They have to find the energy to keep fighting the good fight. They don't just like the "party time" vibe—they need it. And for all that the hardcore activists and righteous idealists pooh-pooh the sort of person who fights less ferociously than they do, I think that the folks who need that optimism and hope and good-vibes do wind up making a difference. They're responsible for the mass action that really moves politics and culture. There's a limit to what they can do, and there's a limit to how far they'll let themselves go—it will really suck if Kamala gets elected and that energy really does revert to "let's do brunch," and lord I am hoping that we learned some fucking things from 2016—but I think it's overly cynical and flat-out incorrect to think that the sort of energy that packs multiple stadiums for Harris/Walz is completely irrelevant to any kind of meaningful politics.
I also, however, think that the kinds of people who operate from that mindset do risk minimizing anything that gets in the way of the vibes. And for all that I understand the quarantining of the I/P discussion, for all that a part of me was relieved to see it happen—because man, those sloggy derails really were a goddamn slog—I also find it pretty disquieting to see what those threads are like now that the conversations about Uncommitted are kept to a bare whisper. Just like I find it irritating as hell when folks head to the dedicated I/P quarantine thread to yell at the people there for criticizing the Democrats for their actions. Because yeah, some people are so sore at the thought of bad-vibes seeping in that they'd like to eradicate the whole conversation altogether. And that sucks too.
My humble, tentative suggestion would be to allow more conversation about Palestine in the main political thread, but to push back on the reply ouroboros a little. People should be allowed to share news about Palestine and the Harris campaign's approach to it; they should be allowed to share how angry and how disappointed they are about it. And people should be allowed to reply to those people expressing their own feelings, whether it's commiseration or an attempt to look on the bright side. After that, it should maybe taper off; people can keep posting about new things that happen, and continue to document the shitty stuff where it's shitty, but if you've stated your opinion about a given item once, you're really not going to make waves by stating it another five times in response to five other people. All you're doing at that point is giving those five people reason to say the same things they already have, in ways that eat up a lot of space and move things absolutely nowhere.
And for fuck's sake, we can all feel very understandably frustrated with each other's perspectives and behaviors, but can we please stop looking at each other as Actively Shitty People? Most everyone here is acting in good faith, we are all trying to do what we think is reasonable and right, and we'd solve a lot of these problems by presuming that everyone else in the conversation is reasonable, intelligent, caring, and well-meaning, and responding to them as if we think that that's the case. That's not too much to ask, right?
(Just kidding! Of course it is. Buttoning again, having paid my $5 penance for feeling the need to chip in. Later, y'all.)
posted by no strong feelings about tom hanks whatsoever at 5:29 AM
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I am staunchly pro-Palestine. I had to fend off a fairly active MeFite who, for months, would pop into my private messages scolding me for referring to Israel's behavior towards Palestine as a "genocide," and accusing me of being a self-hating Jew who was enabling Nazis in America by calling it that.
!!!!???!!!
This is what should be moderated at all times (not sure if you asked - I had an DM issue once and the mods were very responsive.) I'm sad you are buttoning (but do what you need to do) and glad for this comment.
This is a pretty serious example of why block tools (individual ones) are an extremely common feature that I support. No one should be sliding into people's DMs to scold them. And if they do, IMO the user should be able to block them on MeMail and in comments and posts. A number of people won't complain, they'll just leave.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:17 AM
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No one should be sliding into people's DMs to scold them. And if they do, IMO the user should be able to block them on MeMail and in comments and posts.
We already can block people in Memail. I've done it a time or two.
Although, the link to do so is not the easiest to see, maybe making the "block this user" button in Memail bigger could help?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:23 AM
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35 years ago I ran a multi-line BBS with a conferencing and messaging system I wrote and the ability to mute users was in there. One couldn't hide people entirely, though you couldn't see what they'd typed either. youd type /ignore [person] and whatever they typed was replaced (in your view) with variations on the sounds a gagged person would make -- "mmf" "mmnmm?" "mnnnnr!" and so on. The intent was to remind the user that completely ignoring someone in a public forum could have ramifications, and gently urge them to turn it off eventually.
I'm just saying that gentle technical solutions to people being jerks online have been around a long time, and can help reduce the baseline level of personal grar when topics get heated. And when fewer people are lit up and angry, there's less chance of starting a fire, less risk of people burning out.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:58 AM
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We already can block people in Memail. I've done it a time or two.
Well, duh for me (possibly I used this that one time), but that's great. I looked in the hamburger menu on mobile before posting and didn't see anything about blocking, so that might be something to consider (although it might not be built to support that.)
posted by warriorqueen at 7:36 AM
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I've been really chaffing at the idea of blocking certain people as it's so different from existing metafilter culture. But I feel persuaded by the idea of something like "hide this user's comments for 24 hours" or something that might be a tool to help users regulate ourselves
posted by latkes at 8:42 AM
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Mute-a-filter is a nice compromise in that the comments are still totally readable, so if I want context for something that's happened later in the conversation, it's right there. But the low contrast means I have to make an effort to read it, and it's a reminder that I'm allowed to just keep scrolling if I know that comments by that particular user tend to give me the grar. I would feel bad about hiding people's comments entirely, plus it would make the threads confusing. But the grayed out text just sort of turns down their volume a bit, and reminds me that this is someone I've decided in the past I don't want to engage with, so I'm less tempted to respond.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:48 AM
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Thankfully I never got harassment by DM over Palestine. I've just been informed that I'm somehow directly responsible for a person buttoning out because I support violence or something, over those Palestine posts. Over at fediverse I know at least two (ex-)mefites who stopped coming here because the temperature for a long time was reflexively more inclined to silence pro-Palestinian views usually as consequence of the rules of decorum being gamed. And they're not both Palestinian nor Israeli. So from my pov I'm quite acutely conscious of the chilling effect that has had on the site that this round of active genocide could not contain.
posted by cendawanita at 9:04 AM
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What I saw, over and over again, was a wide variety of MeFites trying to engage with the people talking about Palestine, with varying degrees of "looking on the bright side," "agreeing that this particular thing sucks," and "wanting to acknowledge the situation but also focus on other things," and all of those being met with response after response after response after response after response.
So like...can someone help me out, because none of this really seems bad? If people are trying to engage with people talking about Palestine, engaging folks back just seems like...continuing the conversation? Not necessarily a derail?
Like I feel like these things can be moderated perfectly well in normal ways, just by killing personal attacks, etc.
posted by corb at 9:23 AM
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[Here's the FAQ entry about MeFiMail and blocking people in it, for anyone who needs the info. ]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:38 AM
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So like...can someone help me out, because none of this really seems bad? If people are trying to engage with people talking about Palestine, engaging folks back just seems like...continuing the conversation? Not necessarily a derail?
Like I feel like these things can be moderated perfectly well in normal ways, just by killing personal attacks, etc.
Often the "engaging folks back" has consisted of personal attacks - albeit not necessarily obvious "you're a moron" kinds of things, but rather, er, an expressed skepticism of the sincerity of the other person's professed statements. Those aren't necessarily the kinds of things that are easy for mods anywhere to know how to handle, but they also really tend to not contribute to conversations all that well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:45 AM
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Often the "engaging folks back" has consisted of personal attacks - albeit not necessarily obvious "you're a moron" kinds of things, but rather, er, an expressed skepticism of the sincerity of the other person's professed statements.
Yes, and patterns like responding directly to someone, and in the next sentence making a snide comment that overgeneralizes and makes a lot of baseless assumptions about a group it's clear the poster is implying the previous poster is part of, and then when called out on it, doing that sea-lion thing where they reply by saying "I was just talking about these other people, this is the thread where we're talking about that why are you censoring me." Another is the sort of sub-tweet thing where a link is dropped in or quoted that is clearly a condescending jab at other posters in the thread. Another is a perfectly fine post but with a final unnecessary comment that's dismissive and condescending. So many times I've wanted to favorite a well-constructed argument or set of posted links but can't because an extra helping of meanness was sprinkled on top.
I try really hard to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but certain posters repeat and repeat this kind of behavior and it begins to look like that underneath it is an ugly self-righteousness that believes that because the poster is fighting for a good cause, anyone who disagrees with them on any point is therefore bad, and deserves mistreatment.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 10:06 AM
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I seldom get involved in these conversations because I feel like they end up being pretty repetitive and not really moving the needle for anyone, and they definitely can turn into personal sniping, and it's not a subject where I think I have any unique insight that's worth fighting to get into the discussion (but I do appreciate people who contribute real news about the crisis). But these last few comments did crystallize something for me which is that if I had commented to say what I felt yesterday - that I found the handling of Uncommitted and the tepid acknowledgement in Harris's acceptance speech after the full-throated declaration of support for Israel very disappointing - and I received a series of responses that felt like they were trying to talk me off the ledge of not voting Democratic, I would have found that pretty damn condescending. And if some comments on one side come off as taking potshots at everyone else for not caring enough, some comments on the other side do come off like that.
But for me that all mostly leads back in the direction of "what's even the point of starting that discussion here, then?"
posted by atoxyl at 10:30 AM
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You wouldn't understand, you're just going back to brunch.
(Dismissing people is kind of the opposite of engaging with them.)
posted by rikschell at 10:34 AM
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Perhaps people could accuse others of trying to "purposefully tank the less fascist candidate" less often if they want to be able to have a reasonable discussion
That's bad faith as hell
posted by sagc at 10:44 AM
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I try really hard to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but certain posters repeat and repeat this kind of behavior and it begins to look like that underneath it is an ugly self-righteousness that believes that because the poster is fighting for a good cause, anyone who disagrees with them on any point is therefore bad, and deserves mistreatment.
This. Just looking over in the Harris thread, you can spot the people spewing righteous vinegar like this.
Unrelated to above, I just want to once again call out how awesome Cendawanita has been about sharing news and giving perspective on the ongoing Gaza crises. My view on everything back in October 2023 was very much "both-sides need to stop violence" but its very, very clear to me now how much the colonial violence and genocide is coming from one direction only. So, thank you.
posted by Jarcat at 12:11 PM
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Seconding the appreciation for cendawanita's link-sharing and context-giving.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 12:37 PM
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evidently we're still both-sidesing occupation and genocide in the current thread, contra the "we all understand what's happening and oppose it, we just express it in different ways, here on mefi" line. in this instance, flabdablet responded, i think, extremely well. (in general it would help to understand some of the patterns people are talking about if there were more links to examples.)
posted by busted_crayons at 2:45 PM
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I'm over discussing it, not least because the site has consistently decided to delete what I have to say; it's obvious that the prevailing politics here are a Lin-Manuel Miranda sort of saccharine centrism, and I don't see any reason to waste my time fighting about it. Ultimately, the conversations here do not change minds, and if what people want these threads for is to gas themselves up on whatever parasocial neoliberal Swiftiness they need to get excited to vote, who am I to stand in the way of their rhetorical friendship bracelet crafting. Good luck, we're all counting on you.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:07 PM
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Have a good one. Take care. Not even joking there are plenty of fights to pick with people who want to accelerate the genocide, want black people and anybody non-white to be back in their place, and who are itching for a reason to start a civil war, who you can find and confront. Assuming you're in the U.S., at least. If you're looking to pick fights that are actually hard fights that is.
posted by cashman at 4:23 PM
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Oh, you can't talk sense to those people. It's like reading a book to a dog.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:33 PM
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uhm kittens for breakfast, i hope i have sufficient argumentative internet curmudgeon bona fides to suggest perhaps taking a short breather because the thing about being uncompromising and combative on the internet is that you have to go after only the exact shit that needs going after, and that last one of yours was not too angry (angry is fine) but it does have the problem of not making much sense: you pick fights with precisely the people who can't be talked with sensibly. you act like a normal person with those who can*. so it doesn't make sense to want to fight but not with the people who are most unreachable except by fighting. it comes off a bit Internet Tough Guy in a mildly embarrassing way that lets our uncompromising combative internet curmudgeon team down a little bit. it is ok, we all post a tiny bit of cringe sometimes. i like your comments and i have noticed some deletions that were travesties, it's true.
*a lot of people are in the middle and then you need a partner for dealing with them: our curmudgeonly job is to create the space for our more conciliatory comrades to be like "i don't take a hard line like that shouty asshole, but..." and then say the exact same thing we said, but in their special diplomatic way, to ears that will now hear it because most people are so motivated by conflict aversion that the chance to hear someone talking quietly after the stress of someone being vehement will short-circuit their critical faculties and they will not notice that the soothing voice of our comrade (which only sounds that way in comparison to us) is saying the same thing they were just minutes ago unwilling to hear. this actually works sometimes. every conversation has an emotional overton window. it's part of why we curmudge.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:17 PM
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For me, there isn't much point to this stuff unless what you're saying can persuade someone to change their mind; maybe not the person you're talking to directly, but someone who's reading along. Arguing with racists on the internet isn't likely to do that. I've known a lot of racists and fascists, and the only thing that ever changes their mind is bitter experience, because they're too stupid to learn any other way. It's a waste of time to argue with someone like that. And someone who's just reading along on a site that caters to people like that is probably even stupider. There's just no point.
With neoliberals, I generally feel there's a possibility of moving them left, because there's an underlying baseline intelligence to reach out to. At this particular moment, though, I think neoliberals are at their least receptive, riding high, furious at the notion of someone fucking up the brunch vibe.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:53 PM
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The psychiatrist I recently worked with had a very similar perspective, busted_crayon, and was convinced the "bad cop, good cop" routine worked wonders. Mostly he was wrong. I did see it work on an actual cop once (really wild experience, wish I could share) but otherwise it mostly made things worse. But that was in an inpatient psychiatric ward where people are generally more willing to listen to reason than on an internet forum, which sounds like me making some sort of ha-ha joke but I'm dead serious.
Anyway, election year politics threads bring out the worst in me and I would actually benefit from cultivating some conflict aversion, so I've sworn them off. I do think muting would work wonders for keeping me out of "bitch eating crackers" mode but as far as I can find there isn't an extension for mobile Safari (would not be surprised if Apple simply does not allow such things) which is where I mostly access Metafilter from for chronic pain reasons. If anyone knows of one (or Firefox for iOS, but my understanding is all iOS browsers are just Safari reskins), I'd appreciate hearing about it. Otherwise godspeed everyone.
posted by brook horse at 5:53 PM
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*Busted_crayons. I did not mean to deprive you of the at least one other crayon to your name.
posted by brook horse at 6:07 PM
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sounds like me making some sort of ha-ha joke but I'm dead serious.
that doesn't sound like a joke to me at all! i have internetted my fair share and am absolutely not surprised by that.
very open to the possibility that this sort of tactic isn't useful in the settings i'm talking about.
i'm very ready to believe tactics like that don't work in situations where people are mostly being reasonable and speaking in good faith, and it wouldn't occur to me to use them in situations like that. that shit is not natural for me and i am bad at it.
unless metafilter is wildly and improbably different than the culture in which it's embedded, and unless the evidence of many threads on the matter is deceiving me, a mefi thread on the palestinian genocide is not actually one where one can just assume good faith. what i've been learning from having to talk about it IRL is that it's like the most infected-by-bad-faith topic i've ever seen. the other side are using tactics way more well-honed than the experimental naive amateur one i was just talking about.
the worst of that stuff has died down quite a lot on mefi over the course of the gaza threads, for reasons which include (among others) that people saying eliminationist/both-sides/hasbarist/crybully/what-america-teaches-about-israel shit have gotten robust pushback. but it absolutely has not gone away. and i don't think it's reasonable to have to apply normal charitable modes of interaction as a default, in this place, on that matter, until the bounds of what's acceptable to say on mefi are brought in line with what they'd be (at least officially) on any other tendentious but morally clear-cut matter.
posted by busted_crayons at 6:43 PM
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i don't think it's reasonable to have to apply normal charitable modes of interaction as a default
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, busted_crayons. And perhaps they were different when you joined the site, but when I joined the site, the site Guidelines I had to agree to when I joined (again, perhaps it was different when you joined) make it pretty unambiguously clear that normal charitable modes of interaction are preceisely what is expected of us all, all the time.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 8:20 PM
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that relies on a type of moderation that I feel like the mods have stepped back from, as power has been transitioned back to the community; it feels like there's been a lot more... counterfactuals allowed, under the assumption that the community will push back.
Otherwise, it seems like we're stuck with explaining again and again it's probably not a matter of "both sides are equally culpable", which stifles every other conversation. To say nothing of some of the past stances alluded to above - "Gaza is full of luxury hotels"-level mendaciousness.
posted by sagc at 8:40 PM
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...make it pretty unambiguously clear that normal charitable modes of interaction are preceisely what is expected of us all, all the time.
Yeah, and I'm only asking you and anyone else to take my historical recollection of my twenty-odd years here (wat??) fwiw that it's the weaponisation of norms of decorum plus a systematic ignorance of Palestine + background radiation of Islamophobia from the War on Terror + standard Zionist positions (eg bring up historical tragedies as a tangent when people are talking about still ongoing tragedies, but it's not a tangent it's activation of well-deserved western guilt) that gets expressed as polite crybullying + a very specific American (white??) discursive custom that cannot tolerate any tenor of meh (a joke Brits and the Commonwealth would share is how Americans seem to take it personally if any greetings of "how are you," isn't replied with "great!" or "good, thanks") lest it be seen as a personal slight that's caused the culture of the site to be "I/P is something we do badly". And when they don't know how to interject, they just keep to polite silence. Palestinians or pro-Palestinians aren't the only ones hanging in the wind as a result - the numerous eras that led to mefi being known as a Boyzone or spectacularly tone-deaf to trans people had to be resolved by the site culture being pulled trashing and groaning into something resembling a place somewhat hospitable, and even then we've lost critical Black American voices still. What more Palestinians.
posted by cendawanita at 9:03 PM
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(which leads to various subreddits or slacks or discords or twitter circles or what have you whose essential raison d'être is just lurking to report back on how much we're now full of pedantic scolds who are obsessed with political correctness who must think that posting is praxis. Hi, what's up.)
posted by cendawanita at 9:06 PM
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So I'm clear, all of that is a justification that it's ok for people to say things like "Oh, you can't talk sense to those people. It's like reading a book to a dog."
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 9:29 PM
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No
posted by sagc at 9:38 PM
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I'm glad to hear it. But that's the kind of behavior myself and others are talking about, so I'm not sure what to do with all that history then.
posted by A Most Curious Rabbit at 9:51 PM
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well the thing about reading a book to a dog is by the third time you do it, they either want a snack, fall asleep, or wait patiently at the door.
posted by clavdivs at 9:59 PM
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I'm glad to hear it. But that's the kind of behavior myself and others are talking about, so I'm not sure what to do with all that history then.
understand it. go read the Gaza threads and identify the many many non-deleted instances of what cendawanita described and see if you think it's prudent --- not kind, or good for the notional community, or consistent with the rules, but prudent --- to assume good faith uniformly on this topic.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:41 AM
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"Oh, you can't talk sense to those people. It's like reading a book to a dog."
If you look back, that comment was about why it isn't worth trying to reason with the far right, not other mefites.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:52 AM
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we had a whole thread full of russia-jacketing critics of israeli crimes (and maybe designed for that purpose). should we try a thread about hasbara (in contrast/analogy to discussion about russian state propaganda efforts) and see how that goes/how long it survives?
(edit: i am actually asking. mods: is there any point in making an fpp about israeli public diplomacy and propaganda, american public opinion about israel, etc. or is it just going to get mischaracterised as conspiracist and deleted? would it be judged on the content, or on how many incorrectly aggrieved flags it got?)
posted by busted_crayons at 4:03 AM
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Taking my mod hat off because I'm speaking just for myself, which doesn't mean other mods have different or even similar opinions. This is just me, speaking as a regular user, who's aware of some of the larger issues with moderation contentious topics.
This post does not sound like a good idea because:
1. It seems to be in response or comparison to another post
2. Assumptions are already being made about the people who might flag this hypothetical post.
3. You're framing this hypothetical post as being made for right or just reasons, while anyone, mod or user, who disagrees is wrong.
MetaFilter works best when posts are about interesting topics that aren't inherently fighty. The state of the world is such that posts about Palestine or Israel are more than likely going to turn fighty and result in generating bad blood between members and/or members getting more fighty or leaving.
I would advise anyone who wants to post on MetaFilter about a controversial topic to pause and consider whether it really needs to be here and if so, why? If it's to show and remind people that something awful is occurring in the world, I'd advise not posting it (and refrain from doing so in my own posting habits).
Not everything that's going in the world needs to be on MetaFilter. It's perfectly ok for people to discuss or participate on other sites about other interests.
Does this mean MetaFilter is only for good/positive news? Absolutely not and I do feel comfortable in saying that no one, user or mod, would want it be so. The problem is that a fighty topic get posted, people then fight about it, usually a small group, who then want to endlessly fight about it, which creates negative feelings all around and often people shut down, either by quitting the thread or the site, and then only the people who really want to fight about the issue are left.
None of the world's problems are going to fixed by arguing about them on MetaFilter. I get that this site is a digital home for many, including myself, but it's a shared home. Nobody wants to live someplace where there's a never ending argument about the same topic, over and over.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:16 AM
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Thank you.
posted by darkstar at 8:42 AM
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I vote for Brandon for Cabal Overlord of all Metafilter. So say we all.
posted by Jarcat at 9:36 AM
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How do you know he isn't that already? I've said too much.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:30 AM
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FWIW, this discussion does not seem to be actually changing behavior. In the DNC thread, we have users continuing to use the expression "pro-genocide voter" to describe Harris voters. I'm not sure where the mods have come down in the whole debate, but this sort of thing seems pretty clearly intentionally inflammatory.
I'll confess, I almost buttoned a couple of days ago. This whole nonsense is getting so wearisome and tedious that MeFi no longer feels like a welcoming digital home. I feel like I'm having to engage in emotional labor of dealing with abusive, argumentative commenters, to parse through a lot of agitprop just to celebrate a historical presidential nomination.
The reason I didn't actually button was I attempted to download my comment history before closing my account, and inadvertently tabbed away from the process, after which the tab was cleared before I could download my comments. And you're restricted from doing that more than once a week. So it gave me pause, during which I cooled down a little. But that's the closest I've come in 20 years to closing my account.
It feels like a group of agitators have moved into our attic and we just either have to learn to live with them or move out. Not sure what to do about this. I browse on an iPad, and the various mute/block options don't work, and I don't think we have the mod resources, or supporting policy, to be more proactive about addressing this issue. So there may be few options left.
posted by darkstar at 10:38 AM
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I prefer a moderated site to an unmoderated one. If Metafitler were to have a prime directive, it would be "Civility." Civility. Some MeFites have historically characterized threads about Israel/Palestine relations as "Fighty." I respectfully disagree. Some MeFites are Fighty.
All threads involve some degree of interaction among the commenters. Sometimes, these interactions generate helpful or maybe even entertaining ideas. Sometimes, they bear bitter fruit. The latter is where the mods come in to ensure no personal attacks or other little demons violating established guidelines have slipped into the conversations.
I'm afraid I have to disagree that offending comments should be deleted (except on the AskMe page, where comments in response to sensitive asks must be carefully considered). I'm not privy to the way mods consult with each other about policy regulations, so I recognize that my notions rely on scant information. (Go Mods.) For the most part, I would rather see a mod comment under an offending comment than have it disappear. Full disclosure: I am in the camp of those with no use for the "Hide" tab; I prefer to scroll past comments (or Posts) I don't wish to read. I mean to cast no shade on those using this feature.
The Harris administration's intentions regarding the war in Gaza are as valid as inquiries about their position on women's reproductive rights. Persons needing an undiluted feel-good experience about the DNC might limit their exposure to MSNBC rather than reading about the convention on a site known for a veritable Cornucopia of ideas.
I noticed that some in the thread said that we here in MeFi would not change anything by our comments; I believe the implication was that we needn't bother to make those comments here because (variously: redundant or contribute to endless loops) They may be correct. I don't make comments here because I think they'll make one whit of difference. I comment to let off steam, or perhaps because I'm trying to be funny or for other personal reasons. If my comments contribute to tedium, please scroll past them or put me on your Hide list.
posted by mule98J at 10:45 AM
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Nobody wants to live someplace where there's a never ending argument about the same topic, over and over.
HEAR, HEAR. This is entirely the heart of the issue. Nobody's gonna win or change the minds of those in power by constantly arguing this on Metafilter. It's exhausting and getting nowhere.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:47 AM
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Persons needing an undiluted feel-good experience about the DNC
So, just to point out, this is a straw man argument. No one is demanding that only good vibes be allowed. And I'm on record saying that I/P is relevant.
But I defy anyone to take a look at that DNC thread and not honestly acknowledge that the Israel/Palestine argument, and all of the resulting back-and-forth, has completely overwhelmed that thread and driven out other related topics and commenters.
posted by darkstar at 11:03 AM
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Speaking only for myself, I joined this site in 2007. So I at least am not someone who just showed up to squat in the attic and harsh anyone's mellow.
But I definitely meant what I said about giving the politics threads a wide berth. I'm over it. I don't enjoy getting in fights about this stuff. Honestly, I find it depressing.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:04 AM
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So, just to point out, this is a straw man argument. No one is demanding that only good vibes be allowed.
I don't think you are demanding that, but some folks definitely are.
Several people have responded not just to discussions of the US role in the Gaza genocide, but criticism of Walz voting record and Harris time as prosecutor with request that be allowed to feel happy or hopeful.
Gaza and immigration are the two big divisive issues among Democrats during this election. And the border seems to have mostly been given up as a lost cause. It is pretty much the only question of actual policy where the establishment and Trump are in full alignment. There is no way it isn't going to be a major topic of any general election thread.
I still saw plenty of discussion of other topics in the DNC thread. Polls, the latest stupid thing Trump did, what music was being played, people fawning over candidates and their families. And discussion of the ongoing protests by delegates elected to the convention and the way the party responded to them. I think that the latter is a lot more relevant to the actual topic than some of the former.
posted by pattern juggler at 11:28 AM
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I don't think you are demanding that, but some folks definitely are.
They really aren't, though, despite how many times you say they are. It's been a constant stream of mischaracterization from your posts. I happen to agree policy/morally/politically with most of your stances but your insistence on treating your own subjective views as objective facts is *tedious*.
posted by Jarcat at 11:33 AM
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People really did complain about not being allowed to feel joy and hope whenever there was criticism. So that seems like a request for good vibes only to me. Sticking "I think" in front of every sentence is a waste of pixels and time. Of course I think it or I wouldn't be typing it.
The important thing though is that you do acknowledge I am morally and politically correct.
posted by pattern juggler at 11:43 AM
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OK, but there have been mosts telling people to effectively put up or shut up until the campaign is over. There are people sad that they can't feel uncomplicated joy in these threads. Just because you haven't seen them, Jarcat, doesn't mean they're not out there posting.
posted by sagc at 11:44 AM
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The important thing though is that you do acknowledge I am morally and politically correct.
I can't actually tell if this is supposed to a joke. Because even if it is, it isn't really.
posted by neroli at 11:47 AM
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I can't actually tell if this is supposed to a joke. Because even if it is, it isn't really.
Just one more service I offer.
posted by pattern juggler at 11:49 AM
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OK, but there have been mosts telling people to effectively put up or shut up until the campaign is over. There are people sad that they can't feel uncomplicated joy in these threads. Just because you haven't seen them, Jarcat, doesn't mean they're not out there posting.
Best part about a text site is you can actually go back and read what has been written, so no thank you to the gaslighting.
People saying "I want this thing" aren't inherently demanding anything, and my point is the subjective assumption that is being made is incorrect.
And despite that too, even if there were a few people 'demanding' that, representing it consistently as the view of a large swath of people is literally disingenuous.
The important thing though is that you do acknowledge I am morally and politically correct.
You're a mensch <3
posted by Jarcat at 11:49 AM
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I can't actually tell if this is supposed to a joke. Because even if it is, it isn't really.
I took it as a tongue in cheek statement and laughed with it, not at it.
posted by Jarcat at 11:50 AM
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People saying to posters in the US response to Gaza thread that the appropriate response is to "Get on board or get out of the way" is a thing that happened.
posted by sagc at 11:51 AM
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we have users continuing to use the expression "pro-genocide voter" to describe Harris voters.
This isn't quite right, but it's gotten lost in the back-and-forth over there. By "pro-genocide voter" they were referring to some potential subset of people -- presumably not present here -- who are currently planning to vote for Harris, but who wouldn't if Harris were to come out with a straightforward refusal to continue supporting Israel if Israel doesn't stop these atrocities. A single-issue Israel-as-it-currently-is voter (or at least a top-issue-as-a-personal-tipping-point voter).
But it hardly matters. I think Gaza info should be able to be posted in any of these threads, but a good chunk of the back-and-forths are pretty bad for everyone. (That said, I think the vast majority of people participating in those back-and-forths are doing so in earnest -- and then I think the vast majority of people who accuse others of commenting in bad faith are also doing so in earnest, but they're mostly wrong and it's a bad stance to take, and it leads to self-justifying subsequent not-great behavior on their own part, to match the level they see coming from the other side. This is happening all across the spectrum of possible stances, and it's obviously not everybody who does this, but it's enough that it makes the whole thing go bad.)
posted by nobody at 11:55 AM
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Nobody said it better than I could. (eponysteria intended)
posted by Jarcat at 11:58 AM
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we have users continuing to use the expression "pro-genocide voter" to describe Harris voters.
This is incredibly tendentious. The full quote from pattern_juggler (who has also said, explicitly and repeatedly, that he is planning to vote for Harris) is as follows:
Some people won't vote for her if she doesn't continue helping support genocide. Some people won't support her if she does. The mistake the campaign feels in danger of making is assuming the anti-genocide voters will show up no matter what, while the pro-genocide voters need to be coaxed.
The clear meaning of this excerpt is that there are both pro-genocide and anti-genocide factions within the Democratic party, and that one of those two sets of voters is valued more than the other by the DNC. (There is also, quite obviously, a genocide-neutral faction, which is much larger than either of the two factions listed above but is not being addressed in pattern_juggler's comment.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:01 PM
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"I can't get no relief."
--Jimi Hendricks
posted by mule98J at 12:02 PM
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Honestly, given the number of times in these last couple of threads that i, personally, have posted a relevant and factual link about policy positions and been accused by other MeFites of "scolding" them, the only conclusion i am able to draw is that some folks have guilty consciences.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:06 PM
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The mods do delete posts they feel are off topic fairly frequently, especially if they seem contentious or directed about a particular poster or the conversation as a whole, so it is often impossible to follow the exact flow of a conversation. Sometimes you can only tell something is missing because there is a sudden wave of strong reactions out of nowhere, and often not even that. I promise I have zero interest in gaslighting anybody about the existence of people saying they want political discussion on MetaFilter to be a source of joy. I doubt anyone else does, either.
The difference between saying you want something and complaining about or to people you feel are impeding you from getting it and making a demand seems pretty trivial to me. It is clear from the posts and the likes that there really is an appetite for a pure rah-rah pro-Harris conversation. I don't think a place for camaraderie during a political campaign is a bad thing. It isn't something that interests me, but it clearly does other people and I think there is a place for it. I am not sure if that place is MetaFilter or not, but I don't think having such a space needs to be at the expense of having a more general and critical conversation as well.
It's a thing I have trouble with sometimes. Determining whether a given thread is a "yay, this thing is awesome" thread or a "look at this weird thing over here" thread. Sometimes you want a conversation about the different points of view on a thing, and sometimes you want to share it with other people who love it. I think clearly marking some threads as having a particular point of view is okay.
So I think "positive vibes only" is both a real thing people want and that isn't derogatory. It's just a thing.
FWIW, this discussion does not seem to be actually changing behavior. In the DNC thread, we have users continuing to use the expression "pro-genocide voter" to describe Harris voters.
I did use that phrase. A couple of other folks have very kindly pointed out the miscommunication (thank you nobody and adrienneleigh!) but just to make it very clear who I intended that to mean: It was to refer to people who will base their vote on whether or not Harris supports genocide, and specifically those who will refuse to vote for her if she doesn't support it. Anti-genocide voters are those whose votes are based on the same criterion but in the opposite direction.
The rest of us are just Harris voters.
Between this and the "reading a book to a dog" misunderstanding, I feel like there is a lot of kneejerk readings based on what we expect people to say rather than what is actually being said. I know I have had to cool my jets and reread something only to realize I had totally missed sarcasm or misread who the referent of a pronoun was. And I am sure there are times I didn't catch and will cringe out of my skin if I ever catch one of them after the fact.
I think slowing down and reading more carefully would probably reduce the apparent heat level as well.
posted by pattern juggler at 12:12 PM
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Honestly, giving in and installing the block filter linked to up here changed things dramatically for me; there are one or two users I blocked, although not because of what they were saying - but rather, how they were saying it. Because it isn't really even what we're talking about that's gotten under people's skin - it's the fundamentalist approach to how we are expected to think about it, and the relentlessness of the messaging that "this is the only acceptable way to think about this".
Incidentally, I can't help but wonder - since we are in agreement that the situation in Gaza is extremely dire, why would anyone waste their time quarrelling about it on an internet forum every 15 minutes anyway instead of doing something more productive to alleviate the situation?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:27 PM
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pattern juggler, I think part of it is that we've had a few threads now, with many now-deleted comments, in which the framing of "pro-genocide" has been used to tar a whole swath of Democratic voters. Many of those comments have now been deleted, but we all know that they were posted, and that this framing was used to amplify and inflame the discourse as a cudgel and a spur against people on MeFi.
So that when the term "pro-genocide" is used, it has now become something akin to a dog whistle, even when it's couched in a comment in the very narrow terms of referring only to those people who are literally "pro-genocide" and who are probably not engaging on MeFi at all.
It would be analogous to multiple users making comments over a few weeks in multiple threads calling some MeFites "pro-fascism Leftists" as a way to attack those who might be uncommitted in their vote. And then, only after tens of thousands of words of debate, suddenly using the same term only to describe a very small group of people out in the world who might actually, literally be pro-fascism Leftists. (One assumes they must exist, even though none of them have commented on MeFi, to my knowledge.)
Coming along after that and suggesting that people need to just read more carefully would be a little disingenuous (though undoubtedly valuable advice in general).
posted by darkstar at 12:43 PM
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Incidentally, I can't help but wonder - since we are in agreement that the situation in Gaza is extremely dire, why would anyone waste their time quarrelling about it on an internet forum every 15 minutes anyway instead of doing something more productive to alleviate the situation?
I think we are all to some extent dealing with our relative powerlessness to do anything concrete.
Coming along after that and suggesting that people need to just read more carefully would be a little disingenuous (though undoubtedly valuable advice in general).
I have no memory of "pro-genocide" being used to describe people opposed to pressuring Harris on the issue. I am not saying it is implaisible or didn't happen. Between deletions and the bit of brain damage I picked up in 2010 it is entirely possible I missed or had it slide right out of my brain. But I wasn't aware of it or trying to invoke it.
posted by pattern juggler at 12:47 PM
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I understand your position, and I appreciate your clarification. Thank you.
posted by darkstar at 12:52 PM
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[ Comment removed. Do not drag problems from other threads into any other thread. If you feel as thought you can't avoid doing so, it is advised that you take a break from those threads.]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:07 PM
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To clarify, that's "between MeFi threads", not "do not, in this MeTa, refer to comments from MeFi", right? Because I feel like you deleted a comment calling out behavior on Mefi... Which is what Metatalk is for, isn't it?
posted by sagc at 1:10 PM
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[Bringing in that particular comment to this MeTa was not needed and would have probably caused further problems, hence the rationale for this rare deletion from a MeTa. ]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:27 PM
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So ... other folks get to bring in examples of bad behavior but i do not? Is that what i'm supposed to take from these deletions?
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:28 PM
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Like, if other people are going to tendentiously accuse pattern juggler of calling them "pro-genocide", and then the same group of folks are going to (equally tendentiously) call me "anti-Kamala", i think that's an important data point for this MeTa!
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:31 PM
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It does seem to have been a relevant comment if you want to understand why pro-ceasefire/embargo posters feel like anything they say is being interpreted in the least charitable light.
posted by sagc at 1:32 PM
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Upon review: Sagc was right, and I should apologize for saying pattern juggler is consistently mischaracterizing posters. I took another read back through some of the comments I had in mind with the new contextualization from this discussion and feel like my take away of 'tediousness' is a Jarcat problem and not something to relate to the content of y'alls posts.
posted by Jarcat at 1:39 PM
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bullshit deletion. Brandon Blatcher: how are we supposed to discuss dynamics in MeFi threads in the MeTa if we can't be concrete about it?
relatedly, since the gaslighting continues re: "everyone is anti-genocide and speaking in good faith and all on the same side", i think it would be instructive for people making those claims to go through the Gaza threads ctl+f-ing "interrogative mood" and "xdvesper" and to a lesser extent "The Pluto Gangsta", for just some examples of why that's actually a super-contestable claim (over and above the ones in the thread i linked earlier). i'd link specific comments, but MeFi's most even-handed mod is on the prowl.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:55 PM
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Metalfilter: Metafitler
(I know it's a typo)
posted by 15L06 at 1:56 PM
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So ... other folks get to bring in examples of bad behavior but i do not?
Please keep it general and avoid linking to specific comments (which have since been removed), as that tends to heighten tensions and makes things worse overall.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:00 PM
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politely: how the fuck are we supposed to talk about something seriously if we're not allowed to reference actual information? this is a sick joke.
posted by busted_crayons at 2:04 PM
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Please keep it general and avoid linking to specific comments
This is not historically how metatalk has worked, correct??
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 2:06 PM
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This is not historically how metatalk has worked, correct??
It definitely is not.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:09 PM
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Not today at least.
posted by CPAnarchist at 2:09 PM
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In all love.
Metafilter: [S]ince been removed.
posted by riverlife at 2:14 PM
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delurking just to echo everything darkstar just said.
I, too, very nearly buttoned this week and am in fact staying way from MetaFilter as much as I can.
[turning Leechblock back on]
posted by kristi at 3:20 PM
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I've come pretty close to deleting, too, mostly because...to be honest, when I've posted stuff about how shocked and horrified I was about one thing or another, I was looking less for a fight and more for acknowledgment that I wasn't taking crazy pills. Like, giving time to republicans at the DNC and not giving time to Palestinian speakers...that seems pretty fucked up, right? Like in a way that goes without saying, so really I was looking for other posters to be like, "You're right. That is fucked up and extremely disappointing." Obviously, that's not what I got, and to a degree that I first found shocking and eventually just found very sad.
But at the end of the day, the conversations that we have here are completely meaningless in terms of affecting the state of the world, or policies, or anything. It's easy to feel like these arguments are meaningful, but they actually aren't. So I strongly suggest people just reclaim their time and do something else. I will.
In terms of site policy, I think a slow posting rule would make sense, however much trouble it might be to actually implement. Maybe no one needs to post in a thread more than once a day. Frankly, maybe no one needs to post in a thread at all. But if they must, a hard limit is a sound idea.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:50 PM
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What. The. [Redacted]. Brandon?
posted by Alterscape at 4:25 PM
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I never should have cast my vote he's gone mad with power muahaha
posted by Jarcat at 4:55 PM
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I think slowing down and reading more carefully would probably reduce the apparent heat level as well.
I think slowing down and writing more carefully would probably reduce the apparent heat level even more.
If one person misinterprets what you've written, they're a bad reader. If lots of people misinterpret what you've written, you're a bad writer. If you think you're being witty and satirical but many members of your community think you are being hostile, you shouldn't blame them for misinterpreting your literary style. You should take a deep breath, slow down, and learn how to express yourself without contributing to a toxic environment.
Arguing for good cause doesn't give you a free pass to spit in the soup. Metafilter isn't about winning the argument.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:11 PM
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And pro tip: if you find yourself posting two comments cursing out the mods, it may be time to take a break, regardless of the merits of the disagreement.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:13 PM
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The issue, and it's been an issue for 25 years, is that a single stream of un-threaded comments is unlike any real-world conversational environment. You can't walk away from people you don't want to hear; you can't disengage with sub-topics you don't want to read, you can't avoid the people who are being astonishingly rude or who are about to lose their shit. The only thing you can do is walk out af an entire thread, or put up with an entire thread, warts and all. It's fine when everyone is on board or having a chill discussion, but it falls on its face when people get fractious.
And the cost is very high. People have walked away from this site by the hundreds, if not thousands, over the years, because they cannot enjoy it without being exposed to people they find toxic.
I do not believe part of the solution is "comment less," not even forcibly. I do believe part of the solution is to allow people to manage their own environment. Granular muting of people is one way to do that, and fairly simple to implement; even being possible completely browser-side with javascript and cookies, so no database rework would be needed.
Anyway, it's not like there isn't a shitload of work to do to create a new version of the site, but from my view, this problem -- the problem of people buttoning because they can't otherwise get away from people and opinions they find toxic -- is the number two issue with this site being sustainable, directly behind funding. So I think it's kind of high priority.
Thanks for reading.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:26 PM
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Granular muting seems weird. You're going to have a large conversation within which individual participants are having wholly different experiences from one another. And as things are now, people often preface their replies with italicized quotes from the people they're replying to. In all likelihood, you'll still see stuff from the people you're hiding from. It seems like a poor solution.
I think that people have to ask themselves what they're really trying to get out of political conversations on this site. If it's boosterism, it's okay to say that. We can all agree to only say the nice things we think about Kamala, and boo and hiss at the bad Orange Man. Or, again, we can just not do this, because it seems to mostly create bad feelings. I can't think of anything I've gained from these discussions. If I'm being honest with myself, I think I've mostly participated in them because I was procrastinating.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:37 PM
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You should take a deep breath, slow down, and learn how to express yourself without contributing to a toxic environment.
I will be honest, if I haven't managed it by now it is probably not going to happen.
posted by pattern juggler at 5:42 PM
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That sounds more dismissive than I intended.
I try to communicate as clearly as possible. I have a hard time with text sometimes and I don't intend to make the process any more time consuming than it already is.
I'd rather occasionally be misunderstood than take that much longer to communicate.
posted by pattern juggler at 5:45 PM
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When we find ourselves meta-analyzing the meta-analysis of how we are supposed to act in a MetaTalk thread, it is definitely time to log off.
Have a pleasant weekend, all.
posted by darkstar at 6:00 PM
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You too, darkstar.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:03 PM
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And pro tip: if you find yourself posting two comments cursing out the mods, it may be time to take a break, regardless of the merits of the disagreement.
likewise if you find yourself being a patronising dingus. the mod in question made a terrible call and obviously imposed special (and ad hoc, made-up-on-the-spot) standards on someone who's been subject to periodic pile-ons for months. that's bullshit.
the real problem is that this is a "101" problem (charitably) that isn't acknowledged as one. and maybe also a situation where a bunch of people had a lot of successfully buried cognitive dissonance due to positive feelings about something immoral for which they don't actually have real reference points beyond, basically, propaganda and a vague understanding of something as contentious (as evidenced by all the people who can't even refer to whatever specific thing they are talking about in specific terms, but rather throw anything to do with millions of people and a whole swath of history under a whispered "I/P"). and then that vague unease or critical (or uncritical but doesn't-come-up-often) support got rendered untenable because the facts got way too loud this time --- not just ignorable (in their minds) shooting hundreds of protesters inside the fence loud, but loud loud --- and the resistance to thinking about it might have less to do with real or perceived futility and more to do with the persecuted feeling where you're guilty but it's not like you literally did it, and now angry people want to make you tour the camps that technically weren't on that ballot, while all the bodies are still there?
posted by busted_crayons at 6:18 PM
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Well, there have been some things, mostly on the I/P issue that seem intractable.
And if one is going to post over and over again in those threads,spilling over into the Harris and other #uspolitics threads. There may be some issues.
Certain posters who fit that description have really pissed me off. I'm not a flagger (other than for fabulous posts), but some posters do need to be told to take a break. And I think they have, but they have some back after that break and not changed at all.
Which I get. We all have our own lines that we draw.
But, continued almost harassment in threads doesn't help the community. I wish I understood why a certain bearded hippy had an issue, but I can only see hints. Which sucks. When our people get mad and leave, that hurts us all. Think of all the great posters we have have that have just said, "fuck it". If chariot pulled by cassowaries gets pissed for some reason, and buttons, we won't know anything about Australian wildlife rescue efforts! Now I'm not hearing about Musicals and cool music shit.
But here we are. I think Metafilter is an awesome place. There will always be bad actors, people having issues, etc. And I think the mods do a great job doing what they do. But, certain things do seem to get moderated more than others. And I get that. Some members need to take a deep breath before they hit post comment...
Deep breath...
Yeah, Mefi is great, let's keep it that way...
posted by Windopaene at 6:51 PM
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I do not think what you are describing is the purpose of Metafilter. GYOFB or make a film or something. But if you have visions of relentlessly wearing away at the encrustations of other people's world views and beliefs and doing that through Metafilter discussions... well, I just disagree.
Maybe I've misunderstood what you are trying to say. But it's also possible that the disconnect in this whole situation is a disconnect of intensity and purpose, and the reason why people come here.
I come here to learn, and be entertained, and to help other people when I can. I don't come here to be convinced or disabused. And if your purpose in coming to Metafilter is to convince and disabuse other members of this site, then we have a fundamental disagreement about what we are doing here.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:52 PM
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Not sure if you are responding to me or not.
I think Metafilter is all about seeing new cool shit, and discussing things.
I think it is great to hear about other people's world views.
But especially in the I/P threads, there is no tolerance, at all. And that's not about MF. It's just the situation that the I/P situation has put the world in. No one in the world has an answer for how to deal with it that won't result in war. Has been my whole life. No one seems to be able to figure out a way to make it stop. And those feelings all pour into the other threads. Because yes, no one in the US gov really wants to piss off our ally of 50 years in the ME. Even though they are genociders. Religion, JFC. I think "both sides" keep acting like shit, and I wish they would stop.
But this is MetaTalk, so the question is how do we stop I/P #uspolitics to not destroy Mefi?
posted by Windopaene at 7:05 PM
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Not sure if you are responding to me or not.
No, I was responding to the previous comment by Busted Crayons. Sorry for the confusion.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:10 PM
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I'm gonna second windopaene on how nobody knows how to deal with the situation, and probably never will.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:15 PM
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Just to be perfectly clear, I agree with Windopaene's comments and share their perspective on the site.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:48 PM
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This is not historically how metatalk has worked, correct??
As I was saying about the norms of decorum...
ctl+f-ing (...) "xdvesper"
Between the two of us you're truly experiencing two poles of opinion in my country.
If there's nothing to be done about "I/P" why is there so much lobbying money being poured into elections? The multitude of lawsuits and research even fundraisers? Oh right, they're not happening here. Nothing to be done about the Ukraine invasion also?
But even if so, I much more respect commenters like VTX (in my recent recollection) who'd at least try and respond on electoral concerns with electoral arguments. Arguing like ... citizens of a despot country is really funny, from someone living in such a country (as described), just completely throwing up your hands even in discussions you'd think you're the ones with personal and familial history of being tracked by intelligence services.
Decorum!
posted by cendawanita at 8:36 PM
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I find the whole thing about telling people what the site is and how they're missing the point of it rich, since it's generally rhetoric coming from people who've been on the site a shorter time than the people they've taken it upon themselves to lecture. I'd suggest not doing that anymore.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:38 PM
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But to windopaene's point, it's like this. If you have political threads, people will politics in those threads. As I've said and will stop saying after this, I am increasingly unconvinced of the utility of these threads. This is a pretty lefty website, but the US left is a big tent that is full of people who don't like each other very much, don't agree on that many things, and all wield box cutters. There's no way to have a party in there without someone getting their feelings hurt. Am I saying ban politics threads? I'm not not saying it. I don't know. Maybe you open a new subsite called like MetaHell where everyone fights about politics nonstop. You can go there whenever you just hate being alive, I guess.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:01 PM
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I don't know, I've been here since 2006. And I have spent much of my free time since October organizing for Palestine. (Here's the latest thing I was involved in winning). I hope that proves my metafilter & pro Palestine bonafides.
There are people on this website who I disagree with about Palestine. In the past much more than now, there are some Zionists who justify the apartheid state and now the ongoing genocide in ways I find infuriating. More often these days, there some who have views I perceive as magical thinking about how policy change happens - or most often- who simply don't want to have to think about Palestine.
These commenters frustrate me, but I don't expect them to go away or never speak or never disagree with me. I would hope that mods would intervene if these commenters personally attack anyone, or persistently (over many comments) try to shut down discussion of Palestine. I would hope mods would protect my right to state my position, and would stop abusive or personal attacks. In my opinion, that's all I can ask for on this website. If I get too irritated at people's bad analysis, I ultimately have to go do something else.
I'm not really sure what end game some folks want here? Feel free to call me a tone-cop, but I actually don't want to hang out on a website where everyone is being a raging jerk to each other - why bother? I feel like the rule should be you can express your opinion, maybe a few times if you want to try different wording - but then you have to accept there are different people here with different ideas. I find the argument that the other side is being more rude or more inappropriate pretty weak. The fact that someone else is being an asshole doesn't mean it is any way helpful or good for the larger community or helpful to Palestine for me to be a jerk too. Why should the rest of this website have to watch two or 5 individuals going at each other - what is the point of that? By what specific mechanism does it help Palestine? How does it help any individual involved? How does it help this website?
I also find the personal attacks on the moderators to be really frustrating. Not every moderator here is particularly focused on politics or Palestine. I accept that because never has this website claimed to be a political website or an activist website or anything of that nature. I think it's great to try to impact the policies here and to argue for different strategies when we disagree with a moderation call - in fact - I've had some back and forth with moderators here about Palestine in particular over the years - but strategically - what is an effective way to impact moderation policy - telling the mod they are a jerk?
I like that this site has moderation. I want it to keep having moderation. I recognize moderators will not always agree with me and I like that there is a forum to bring up concerns about it. I don't think that forum should mean anyone should come to the forum and call everyone else an asshole.
I just feel like some folks are really digging in but I don't understand what specific outcome is desired? Like, it might help all of us if we did start with imagining the outcomes we want, then think backward toward how we would achieve them here on this website.
posted by latkes at 9:12 PM
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I find the whole thing about telling people what the site is and how they're missing the point of it rich, since it's generally rhetoric coming from people who've been on the site a shorter time than the people they've taken it upon themselves to lecture. I'd suggest not doing that anymore.
Right back at you.
posted by Diskeater at 9:31 PM
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