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feature requests, bugs, etc.
#USDefaultism and #otherDefaultisms
FPPs often say something like "New bird spotted in the EastWest Territory" or whatever and I have no clue of what they're talking about.
Many FPPs are specific to some specific country/region/state/territory without specifying what country they're talking about. This is basically the SOP for the US, but also quite common for other English-speaking countries.
It's not that surprising for an English-language site, but I believe MeFI should strive to be truly international, so I think this sort of thing could at least be noted.
I realize this is not a huge deal, and I'm not proposing a rule about this, but as somebody who doesn't live in the Anglosphere, it makes the site seem less welcoming, and it's not that hard to say the EastWest Territory of New Caladan.
posted by signal on Aug 23, 2024 at 10:05 AM
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I think this is a good idea, because often there are multiple places around the world that are called by the same name or initials ie "the bay area" which I of course assume means San Francisco, CA, USA. A quick indication of nation and region is helpful!
posted by supermedusa at 10:08 AM
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I'd worry that this would be more aggressively enforced against posts coming from a non-US perspective, and force users making those posts to do more work to provide context that could be found in the link itself. After *reading the linked material in a post*, how often is it still unclear what's being referred to?
How many posts depend entirely on whether they mean the Western Territory (of Australia) or a different Western Territory to the extent that you'd click one and skip the other?
posted by sagc at 10:13 AM
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Strong disagree. I live for the 15 seconds of indulgent joy every day when I can pretend that I have a fungus busting frog sauna or a pet crocodile problem local to me.
It is entirely optional to read metafilter at all, if you don't understand something from context clues or don't care enough to "waste" a few seconds learning something new, then you don't have to look at it. I actually love when there are more non US posts from non US people that don't overexplain themselves. It's how Kitteh keeps tricking me into knowing anything about Canada, for example.
posted by phunniemee at 10:33 AM
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I'm not talking about 'wasting' seconds. I'm talking about the fact that the US, (or Australia or UK) are the unmarked default.
If you don't understand this, that's fine.
posted by signal at 11:09 AM
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I don't see it as an unmarked default for anything but the US, to be honest, and see someone like Chariot Pulled By Cassowaries as doing good work to push back against the assumption that any proper noun/location must be in the United States.
If the argument is that *every* location should be marked by country or locale, regardless of whether the country is English-speaking, I can see where we're coming from - but I'd rather it go the other way, where there's an expectation that you engage with the post before posting something like "What country is this post about Jakarta focused on".
Or maybe I'm not quite understanding which sorts of posts need the changes?
posted by sagc at 11:17 AM
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The US-defaulters probably will need to be reminded (often) to indicate that their post pertains to the US. (Yes, I'm from the US.)
Wondering if we could have a new field on post creation that required the user to specify the country to which their post pertains? Sometimes the very subject of the post makes it obvious, but clearly that isn't always the case.
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 11:29 AM
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I personally don't find this a problem and am occasionally delighted by a headline that seems to suggest possums or crocodiles doing something noteworthy in Washington only to discover that it's Western Australia. It's fun! But, if it upsets some members, I don't think it's an excessive burden to mark the country more clearly.
On the other other hand, I'm shocked when a post by chariot pulled by cassowaries isn't about Australia, but that is also part of the fun.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:22 PM
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When Chariots Pulled by Cassowaries started making the Australia flora and fauna posts, I was thrown by a few of them, and I sort of wished the posts were a bit clearer where they were about.
But I know that this will never, ever be a thing for the vast majority of posts about a US city or state, and the end result will be more hoops for International members to jump through and more marking of non-US content as something unusual.
It's not that I disagree with your goal, signal -- I'd like the site to be more welcoming to non-Americans and people outside of the anglosphere. I don't even I disagree with your idea in theory because more clarity is always welcome. It's just that I think in practice, your idea will have exactly the opposite effect of what you are hoping for.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:36 PM
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I personally don't find this a problem and am occasionally delighted by a headline that seems to suggest possums or crocodiles doing something noteworthy in Washington only to discover that it's Western Australia.
Strongly agreed. "In the NT, pet crocodiles have become an election issue", while a fascinating post, was even more fascinating when my initial reaction was to mis-interpret NT as New Testament and think I was about to read some amazing biblical scholarship.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 1:11 PM
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I think this is a good reminder. I can't see adding geographical domain information to every post about a person, work of art, etc., etc. that I mention here, but when it's relevant, seems like a useful addition for our community.
posted by cupcakeninja at 1:11 PM
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I don't see it as an unmarked default for anything but the US, to be honest, and see someone like Chariot Pulled By Cassowaries as doing good work to push back against the assumption that any proper noun/location must be in the United States.
I am Australian so generally get the context of those posts but I strongly agree with the above. It's a little jolt of oh yeah, this is our place too. I feel it would be good for the site both for more people to experience that and for more people from the US to experience not being the default.
posted by deadwax at 2:34 PM
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I'm talking about the fact that the US, (or Australia or UK) are the unmarked default.
Yeah, but so what? The problem here is with ourselves. Whenever I encounter a geographical unknown in an FPP (or wherever on MeFi) I immediately switch to the poster's profile, and INVARIABLY you haven't filled in your location. Not even your country? Why not?
posted by Rash at 2:35 PM
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I think this is a totally reasonable ask, particularly given that the OP is not asking for a rule!
When you make a new post, you get these descriptions for a title "Keep it short and descriptive. It will be displayed on both the front page and comment page." Perhaps this could be slightly amended: "Keep it short and descriptive. Remember that our membership is international...." Or something along those lines. Alt: "Keep it short and accessible to our international membership."
posted by coffeecat at 2:56 PM
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In principle, I agree. I've found myself flailing at my fellow Americans when they enter an non-US thread and immediately make it about the US. (The mods are quite good about quashing this sort of thing.)
But.
As much as I like being on Metafilter and participating on Metafilter, I absolutely do not see Metafilter as an international site. I just don't. It's too US-centric even on first blush, and you know what? It is what it is. It's like when I was on Barbelith, which was predominately UK-centric. The site more or less reflects the country in which it's based.
That being said, I love love love the posts by non-US users. I wish they would get more traction but if you were to break down posts most visited? I guarantee you that the US-centered ones would win.
posted by Kitteh at 3:05 PM
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If I might gripe for a moment: this doesn't really bother me on the blue, but it's always annoying on Ask, when people (invariably Americans) don't even think to mention which country they are asking about for questions that clearly have different answers in different countries. Sometimes they even list all kinds of perhaps pertinent details, but completely fail to mention the country they are asking about!
posted by ssg at 3:33 PM
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I've often gotten US-only answers to questions, sometimes even when I specifically state that I'm not in the US.
posted by signal at 3:38 PM
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If I might gripe for a moment: this doesn't really bother me on the blue, but it's always annoying on Ask, when people (invariably Americans) don't even think to mention which country they are asking about for questions that clearly have different answers in different countries. Sometimes they even list all kinds of perhaps pertinent details, but completely fail to mention the country they are asking about!
This never fails to crack me up. No state, no country, no context - just tell me the fucking answer, you!
posted by kbanas at 4:01 PM
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I agree with this request. it is also been a hobby horse of mine for years on metafilter should be more International site and I think people should be allowed to post in their own language with no English or any other language but their own and if we English speakers don't like it well we don't have to participate.
posted by clavdivs at 5:46 PM
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I like when Chariots Pulled by Cassowaries pulls me out of the usual and narrow Metafilter experience, sharing a part of the world I know next to nothing about.
Other than that, I would only suggest people concerned about this dig a little into Metafilter's mildly embarrassing history with Usain Bolt for some gentle lighthearted perspective.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:51 PM
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Hey, chariot's latest post about the "Northern Territory" is catering to an international audience. Aussies just call it the Territory.
posted by rory at 6:22 PM
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What I guess I take for granted is that readers of MetaFilter know that all FPPs feature these things we call 'links' and that if you happen to click on one, whether by accident or design, you will know, probably within about 5 seconds, what part or parts of the world the FPP is referring to.
But perhaps that's too much trouble for some people to take, and they would prefer to let their irritation over not having their fare cut up into perfect little bite sized pieces before it's set before them build up to the point it overflows into a meta such as this.
Either that, or there's something else going on, something that the author of this Meta is unwilling or unable to make explicit.
I know that if I were Charoit Pulled by Cassowaries, I would worry that my posts were rubbing signal and possibly other people the wrong way, and I might not make as many FPPs in the future.
And if that happens, it will be a disaster for the site, and I will be not simply irritated, but outright angry with you, signal, as well as the moderators who approved this post which did not name names, but was clearly pointed at one specific user.
Didn't you learn anything from what happened with kliuless?
posted by jamjam at 9:35 PM
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is all this happening? on earth?
posted by HearHere at 1:55 AM
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I get really confused every time WA means Western Australia and not Washington state.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:26 AM
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jamjam: this post was not 'pointed' at any one user.
Aside from that, everything else in your passive-agressive post is your own fantasy, so I don't really feel any need to respond to it.
posted by signal at 4:24 AM
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I get really confused every time Washington means Washington State and isn't being used as shorthand to refer to Cox & Combes' Washington (2007) but we must all of us bravely soldier on.
posted by phunniemee at 4:25 AM
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How many posts depend entirely on whether they mean the Western Territory (of Australia) or a different Western Territory to the extent that you'd click one and skip the other?
The Western Territory (of Australia) isn't a place, so I'm guessing none?
posted from Walla Walla, Washington District of Colombia
posted by flabdablet at 4:50 AM
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I've often gotten US-only answers to questions, sometimes even when I specifically state that I'm not in the US
all you american continentals look alike to us
posted by flabdablet at 4:51 AM
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I never remember what WA means so I just interpret it as 'somewhere in the USA, probably'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:01 AM
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> there's an app for that [wawa]
posted by HearHere at 5:07 AM
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I absolutely do not see Metafilter as an international site. I just don't. It's too US-centric even on first blush, and you know what? It is what it is.
I agree with this general sentiment on the Blue - regrettably, because as a US member I could use more non-US perspectives in my life - if only because holy god, people, we have enough goddamn rules around here already.
Flipside, Ask is about connecting people with information and answers they're having trouble locating. That's it. It's why we ban most chatter there. When you assume a US basis on Ask there is a significant chance you are hurting rather than helping. Ask may not literally have a librarians' equivalent to the Hippocratic oath, but... close enough, and that's the general spirit of the place, so making sure you're in the right locale with your answer whenever contextually relevant seems like a pretty reasonable expectation.
posted by Ryvar at 5:11 AM
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People post links all the time without explaining what it links to, and why someone would want to click on it. It'll be a chunk of text that they think is evocative or tantalizing, but only makes sense to them because they just read the article.
I wish they wouldn't do that, but there's always been a tension on the Blue between "If you don't like it, don't click on it", and "labels are unnecessary, just click on it." If a post has an ambiguity about the where instead of the what, that's fine with me.
posted by zamboni at 5:48 AM
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"New bird spotted in the EastWest Territory" or whatever
this post was not 'pointed' at any one user.
Technically true, but if you didn't intend to make an indirect cpbc callout, you did a bad job of providing hypothetical examples.
posted by zamboni at 6:03 AM
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LOL, someone should just write a MeFi style guide already. We're kinda there with explaining in-jokes.
posted by frecklefaerie at 8:42 AM
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this post was not 'pointed' at any one user
i know this is an 'in' joke, but that felt very pointed at me. birds aren't real! [birdsarentreal.com]
posted by HearHere at 10:46 AM
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someone should just write a MeFi style guide already.
What Is A Good Post?
What Is A Good Comment?
Formatting
posted by zamboni at 11:01 AM
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"New bird spotted in the EastWest Territory" or whatever and I have no clue of what they're talking about.
That's because the location of the EastWest Territory is a closely guarded secret of the cabal. They don't let just anybody go there. Or so I've heard.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:28 AM
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The ONLY time it matters is askme as many/most questions are most effectively answered if the geo location is known:
country + Region/State/Province.. + county/city.
posted by unearthed at 11:54 AM
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Well, I was born in the tri-cities, went to school for a bit in the triad, and now live in the triangle. I'd be delighted to know what other places in the world those shorthands refer to, but I'm guessing that's free thread territory.
Sometimes I am amused with by the geographical confusion of my fellow Americans. Remember back in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia? That was a fun couple of days in the Southeast US.
posted by thivaia at 1:37 PM
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HMAS Canberra.
USS Canberra.
1. no such vessel(s)
2. An Australian naval ship
3. An America naval ship.
4. one is a Starfleet science vessel.
Don't Google now.
posted by clavdivs at 1:53 PM
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Well, I was born in the tri-cities, went to school for a bit in the triad, and now live in the triangle.
I live right near Five Corners.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:33 PM
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> all of the above
posted by HearHere at 2:52 PM
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After some reflection, I've decided to provide more context to my above comment.
MetaFilter has a long list of soft guidelines for posting that have been proposed over the years. I have previously elsewhere said I think there should be fewer barriers to posting, and the proposal here is one more barrier to posting. I think it fits into the category of "things that could be helpful, but have the potential to decrease engagement here." Perhaps others have thoughts about that. I don't know whether this sort of ask is more likely to increase or decrease engagement, but I know that my desire to contribute to MetaFilter has been repeatedly deadened this year by a range of things on the site, leading me to consider buttoning more than once. If people including the above sort of content on a post would make people more interested in contributing to the site, I would like to hear it.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:21 PM
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cupcakeninja, i mostly want to say that i appreciate your posts!
what zamboni described: there's always been a tension on the Blue between "If you don't like it, don't click on it", and "labels are unnecessary, just click on it."
makes a lot of sense to me, as this was a discussion on one of my posts. i think the comments there were great & relate to this thread. hope this helps!
posted by HearHere at 7:14 PM
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Update from a two family dwelling near the Capitol Theater, Arlington in the County of Middlesex within the western side of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in the region known colloquially as New England of the United States of America: Sure every post.
posted by sammyo at 9:38 PM
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