[HN Gopher] A former Egyptian engineer found the secret to build...
___________________________________________________________________
A former Egyptian engineer found the secret to building a big gas-
station chain
Author : wallflower
Score : 174 points
Date : 2020-01-05 15:16 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.seattletimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.seattletimes.com)
| dmix wrote:
| > Even the handles on the gas pumps get buffed down regularly so
| that "the customer does not put his hand on something dirty," he
| says
|
| This is what most UX designers do for a living. They think about
| the small details which get overlooked while everyone is in a
| rush to build out x feature/functionality.
|
| It's what creates emotional connections to products and services
| which builds strong customer loyalty and helps word of mouth.
|
| Just like how they used to know your name at your local small
| grocery store, those intimate details go a long way. And in
| commoditized situations people are willing to spend more
| time/money or go out of their way to use your product.
|
| Dan Norman talks a lot about this in his "Emotional Design" book.
| It's the design stuff that goes beyond merely functionality and
| most efficient problem solving (ie, obsessing about fewest clicks
| to do x, instead of the wider experience where adding a
| communication step might improve the emotional experience).
|
| But often it is a luxury for many smaller firms struggling to
| just get the functionality part right, which is why this person
| buying up gas stations, providing time and capital, and giving
| them the attention they needed is working so well.
| jariel wrote:
| Funny though, it may not be the pumps. That just might be an
| expression of their strict cleanliness. It maybe some other
| aspect that actually brings in customers. Or possibly the sum
| totality of 'clean' and not any one thing.
|
| Assuming it's not product or price, it's interesting to note
| how a professional appearance makes the difference.
| WalterBright wrote:
| > Funny though, it may not be the pumps. That just might be
| an expression of their strict cleanliness. It maybe some
| other aspect that actually brings in customers. Or possibly
| the sum totality of 'clean' and not any one thing.
|
| In the early days, Ray Kroc focused on McDonald's always
| having spotless bathrooms. Moms knew this and would stop at
| McD's on road trips because the bathrooms were reliably
| clean. Nobody else was doing that at the time.
| bitexploder wrote:
| Quick Trip is a national gas chain that does all of these
| little things right. Always clean. Good bathrooms. Pumps always
| work and are clean. Checkout is always fast even when the store
| is really busy. Excellent product selection for a convenience
| store. Bright and welcoming. That is how I characterize them.
| This engineer is helping other stations have that same polished
| feeling.
| criddell wrote:
| If you are ever in central Texas, check out Buckee's. There's
| one near Waco that blows my mind. Something like 120 gas
| pumps. The bathrooms are spotless and in the men's there are
| probably 50 or 60 urinals and a similar number of stalls. The
| store attached to the gas station is pretty big too and has
| just about every kind of junk food and some decent bbq as
| well.
| Aloha wrote:
| Bu-cees is a Texas phenomenon - gas stations the size of a
| Costco, reasonable prices inside and out.
| indecisive_user wrote:
| I was going to mention QT. Though most their locations are in
| the Midwest. The only chains that even come close to the same
| quality and consistency are Racetrac or _some_ circle K's.
|
| I pretty much always choose to stop at a QT if I can just
| because of all the little things you mentioned that they do
| better than every other gas station.
| pochamago wrote:
| Discovering a favorite gas station chain in each region of
| the US is one of those hobbies it always feels weird to
| talk about, but there's no doubt that Racetrac is the king
| of Texas
| andonisus wrote:
| I really don't buy any of the UX spiel that you laid out. I
| guess it depends on what kind of product you're buying, but I
| have never personally had a personal connection to any
| (technology) product. The only UX I care about is the
| application being responsive and doing what it says it's going
| to do. Additionally, I have never once recommended a product
| because it has evoked an emotional response for me.
|
| To be clear, I am not saying that UX as whole is not needed,
| but I do not need someone who has made a career of it to
| elucidate me on the finer points of emotionally connecting with
| a user via tooltips and the like.
| jayd16 wrote:
| Bad UX can certainly create an emotional response.
| jariel wrote:
| Almost every consumer product is sold and marketed on the
| basis of emotional connection.
|
| More likely than not, you're just not aware of it, which is
| normal.
|
| FYI the emotional connection is not just made 'via tooltips',
| it's usually a package affair.
|
| The article is a good example: the product (gas) and price
| didn't change, one could argue cleanliness was changed but
| that's a little doubtful unless the old station was
| disgusting. What changed was probably brand, colours,
| lighting, atmosphere, modern appearance - all pretty
| superficial stuff that has nothing to do with the actual
| product - gasoline. And yet it makes a big difference to most
| people, probably including you and I. We probably don't
| notice we were more likely to pull into the big, lit, white,
| modern looking gas station with the brand we recognised -
| over the off-brand gas next door, which is identical.
| Infinitesimus wrote:
| > The only UX I care about is the application being
| responsive and doing what it says it's going to do
|
| UX as a field goes well beyond pretty UIs.
|
| UX designer could drive your example because they looked at
| the users of the product and realized that like you, they
| care about a very responsive system.
|
| Detecting that someone finds the product too slow could
| eventually materialize a backlog item to make page load times
| twice as fast etc.
| untilHellbanned wrote:
| You fell into the "doesn't work on me, so it doesn't work on
| anyone" trap.
| andonisus wrote:
| Should I speak for everyone else? I cannot presume to share
| anything but my own personal experience. To that end, I am
| simply relating my experience with UX designers and the
| evangelists of it.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| Having worked extensively with UX peeps, there is BS floating
| about. Not unlike how devs enjoy their circlejerk.
|
| But there is a mountain of subtleties that are very
| effective. People who don't work in the field just can't
| vocalise what they are, other than "it's fast".
|
| That last point goes for anything, really.
| gbasin wrote:
| I think I'm similar. Although it's hard to rule out that
| little details don't have a subconscious impact on my
| preferences.
| andonisus wrote:
| It very well could have an impact; who knows? I guess my
| point is that I feel that UI design should include UX as
| part of its guiding principles. You don't build a UI just
| to build a UI -- you build it to be used (hence, UX). How
| can you have UI without UX? Why does it therefore need to
| be a separate role? Shouldn't UI designers, by definition,
| include UX as part of their design? If your response to
| this question is that a UX designer would guide the UX of
| an entire platform, I could buy that. But that is not
| typically how a UX designer's role is described to me.
| lostgame wrote:
| That's why, as far as I've seen - it's typically called
| UI/UX?
|
| They certainly go hand in hand but IMHO good UX is much
| more important than the way the UI is displayed, which I
| think can honesty be more influenced by aesthetic and
| personal preference.
| jkaptur wrote:
| Most engineers I talk to insist that they don't have an
| emotional connection to products or software. Then we start
| talking about their favorite text editor...
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| >And in commoditized situations people are willing to spend
| more time/money or go out of their way to use your product.
|
| It depends if your customer has money to spare and/or if they
| value the improvements. Walmart succeeded precisely because
| people don't care about anything other than price for
| commodities.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I think in this particular case it's largely unconscious -
| people (speaking for myself at least) don't look at whether a
| fuel pump handle has been buffed, instead they'll have a
| general feeling of "this station feels nicer than most".
| [deleted]
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| Yeah, and the hordes of price sensitive customers will have
| no problem passing up your "nice" gas station for the one
| that's consistently 5 cents cheaper.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _hordes of price sensitive customers will have no
| problem passing up your "nice" gas station for the one
| that's consistently 5 cents cheaper_
|
| It's not obvious that these measures would boost the
| price. An owner might accept lower margins for scale. Or
| they may cut costs that don't matter, but which everyone
| dogmatically incurs, to incur the ones that do.
|
| An in any case, segmentation is a thing. Targeting
| premium customers is a profitable strategy. It's also a
| virtuous cycle, since each premium customer gives you
| resources to expand your lead while depriving your
| competitors of their business ( _e.g._ for upsold
| services).
| iudqnolq wrote:
| > An in any case, segmentation is a thing.
|
| Which is apparently why the engineer owns both discount
| (Arco) and premium (Shell) stations.
| syshum wrote:
| That is not the full story of why Walmart Succeed, the Old
| School walmart (back in Sam Walton's day) was not competing
| on price, but on Value (Service + Price) and they successed
|
| Walmart of today still competes on more than Price, but it is
| Convenience + Price. For me this is the ability to get my Oil
| Change Supplies, my Furnace Filters, a new pair of shoes, a
| belt and my Groceries all in 1 store, with 1 checkout, and I
| can get into that store and out of it getting everything I
| need for 1-2 weeks in under 30-45mins
|
| Often times if I price shopped for every item there are
| places that are lower in price than Walmart, and some that
| are higher, but on the whole those minor fluctuations are not
| worth going to 5 different stores to get the "lowest price"
| [deleted]
| WalterBright wrote:
| > Just like how they used to know your name at your local small
| grocery store,
|
| When I was in college, there was a small restaurant nearby,
| Burger Continental. The owner knew us students, and when
| ordering he'd always upgrade our orders for free, usually with
| a big flourish. We knew why he was doing it, but we still
| enjoyed him doing it and patronized his establishment a lot.
| cushychicken wrote:
| >Just like how they used to know your name at your local small
| grocery store, those intimate details go a long way. And in
| commoditized situations people are willing to spend more
| time/money or go out of their way to use your product.
|
| Additionally - it also shows how there are things that you
| never expect that have a positive impact. Suggests to me that
| there are _so many_ factors that affect people 's product
| choices, and that many of the factors that drive a certain
| choice are not fully understood by either the buyer or the
| seller.
| dmix wrote:
| Startups can waste so many cycles optimizing for bullshit
| that's for sure. Or at least the tiny details that may or may
| not improve the product experience, or more important the
| revenue part.
|
| Doing to the right optimizations at the right scale is a
| difficult balance. A lot of startups are investing thousands
| (or more important critical hours of runway time) in making
| super pretty websites and mobile apps when a simple non-JS
| HTML page where they figure out who their customer is or what
| product they really should be selling.
|
| But then there are products where the mobile/web app's UX
| _is_ the product because the industry is old /stagnant and
| haven't figured out tech. For example there are quite a few
| startups whose sole purpose is making buying insurance on
| your phone easy from a UX standpoint. Taxi companies could
| have made cellphone GPS/app driven services long before Uber
| but didn't, etc.
| [deleted]
| wpietri wrote:
| I agree this kind of thinking is good, but disagree that it
| should be concentrated in a role with a title like UX Designer.
|
| Ultimately, we make things that serve other people. All of us
| need to pay attention to how our work impacts the users we
| serve. Experts can help with that, but the Lone Design Ranger
| isn't nearly as powerful as a cross-functional, user-focused
| team.
|
| I would also suggest that at least in tech, smaller firms
| aren't the problem here. As you say yourself, the small,
| neighborhood grocery store can get this stuff right just by
| paying attention. I think the big problems come at scale, where
| managerialism and over-focused metrics can easily disempower
| people and get them focused on the wrong thing.
| dmix wrote:
| Completely agree with everything you said.
|
| Remember when Google was still small and functional enough to
| produce excellent software with a good focus on design
| consistently? I do and I miss them. But all good things fade
| over time.
|
| Clearly Google haven't architected a system that can put (or
| attract) the right talent in control of the right places.
| Small fast growing firms naturally attract talent and "game
| recognizes game" usually so it was easier for them back in
| the day.
|
| It's just interesting to think of all the firms with a
| legitimate pool of great talent simply not executing properly
| (Magic Leap is the perfect example of this). It's a sad waste
| of resources which is heavily responsible for the people
| running things (IMO).
| kyleblarson wrote:
| His is certainly an impressive story, but you also have to
| account for the fact that a lot of the neighborhoods in which he
| owns gas stations have seen massive inflows of money from
| Seattle's insane growth in the last 25 years.
| KoftaBob wrote:
| As a fellow Coptic Egyptian, I can tell you that his ability to
| directly source talent from Coptic Churches in the area is a huge
| advantage for him.
|
| Just like how warm intros in the VC world signal that the person
| making the intro can vouch for them as trustworthy, a similar
| benefit is had when sourcing employees from a tight knit ethno-
| religious community.
|
| If he hires them to manage a gas station and they steal, cause
| problems, or anything like that, the community will know about it
| and their reputation will suffer.
| vageli wrote:
| > If he hires them to manage a gas station and they steal,
| cause problems, or anything like that, the community will know
| about it and their reputation will suffer.
|
| Further, the family's image becomes tarnished to an extent in
| the eyes of the community, and family is often a powerfully
| reinforced social structure in immigrant households (my own
| included) with the ability to compel action.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| 1) If you want to see an example of that in the Bay Area, the
| Mile 8 convenience store/gas station at 19th Ave. and Irving is
| pretty amazing - great selection, two clean, inside restrooms.
| Closes at 8 pm though. Cheapest sandwiches, snacks and coffee in
| the area.
|
| 2) The article has a good explanation of how an immigrant
| community works together to dominate a niche using a favorable
| banking tie and a labor stream. A similar story is that most Bay
| Area motels are operated by Gujaratis (fixed), and in Canada
| minimarts by Koreans. Both have strong banking ties for pre-
| approved loans based on sufficient family labor and the community
| track record.
|
| 3) The Albanian resistance movement in the last Serbian war was
| funded by a small construction firm in New York. The owner fed
| back enough weapons and snipers to ground the UN helicopters (!)
| persecuting them, as well as lobby in DC. There's a very
| impressive video online.
| vrc wrote:
| I believe the plurality of motels in the US are owned by
| Gujarati's [1][2][3]. Hence the moniker: "Patel Motels". I'd
| venture to guess a lot of the Tamilians in the bay are in the
| IT sector
|
| [1] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/2018/09/south-
| asi...
|
| [2] https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Family-Fortunes-
| Gujar...
|
| [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarati_Americans
| throwaway_gdue wrote:
| > There's a very impressive video online.
|
| I tried but failed to find a similar sounding video. Can you
| send a link or title?
| hogFeast wrote:
| It is very hard for them to get loans. Paying in cash or
| getting vendor financing from the seller (particularly if they
| are extended family/kin) is common. Most migrant communities in
| the US (and outside) have parallel banking systems (for
| example, there is a completely separate Chinese banking system
| in the US...this is a function of domestic Chinese banks not
| having huge operations outside China, it is more common for
| migrants to deal with branches from their home country though).
|
| I would also be somewhat cautious talking about Serbia.
| Everyone can accept that neither side covered themselves in
| glory. Let's just leave it there.
| vageli wrote:
| > 3) The Albanian resistance movement in the last Serbian war
| was funded by a small construction firm in New York. The owner
| fed back enough weapons and snipers to ground the UN
| helicopters (!) persecuting them, as well as lobby in DC.
| There's a very impressive video online.
|
| Would you happen to have a link or know what to search? This
| sounds interesting but my searches have yielded nothing so far.
| [deleted]
| adventured wrote:
| The secret to a great gas station business, is being not
| primarily in the gas station business, but in the higher margin
| food business.
|
| The Sheetz gas station chain along the US east coast for example
| has a wildly thriving business and is demolishing every other gas
| station in its path. ~25 years ago they started doing things
| quite different than all the other competition and it has led to
| them building out hundreds of locations. They're up to $7.5
| billion in annual sales now. It's all built around great
| locations (of course) and the margins in their food making
| business. They did touch screen ordering kiosks as early as any
| other major food-related chain in the US, and 20+ years before
| McDonald's deployed them widely. The gas merely draws traffic,
| there's no serious money in that part of the business.
| aazaa wrote:
| Bogus Norton Security nonsense. I'm outta there.
| brenden2 wrote:
| I don't think it's a secret if you're publishing it in the news.
| Just sayin'.
|
| Also I think this whole article can be summed up as "providing a
| better experience for customers can increase sales".
| megablast wrote:
| > "providing a better experience for customers can increase
| sales".
|
| Right, but what does that actually mean. What is he actually
| doing to make the businesses more attractive to customers.
| bitexploder wrote:
| This over-simplifies the nuance. Each business is a little
| different and it is useful to see exactly how and what is being
| done. It's like hiring a business consultant and they tell you
| a bunch of "obvious" things you are not doing. But you start
| doing them and your business improves. Maybe you learned
| something along the way.
| tyingq wrote:
| I suspect his hiring strategy plays into it. He hires
| immigrants from his own church. That probably plays into
| workers that will do all the little stuff that makes the
| difference, even at gas station wages.
| DylanDmitri wrote:
| I attended a service at St Mary's, and the people were both
| friendly and compassionate.
| aga98mtl wrote:
| A key point is that he gets a reliable stream of motivated
| immigrant labor to take good care of his stations. Normal
| owners who hire american teenagers will get worse results. This
| is why Shell is giving him the red carpet treatment to acquire
| underperforming gas stations.
| listenallyall wrote:
| But you're missing the nuance that exemplifies the risk. Will
| sales (on a low-margin product) improve enough to cover the
| renovation's cost (hundreds of thousands, to million+)? And the
| additional ongoing costs of running a "spotless" store? Gas
| station pumps don't wipe themselves down. And can a guy who
| owns a few dozen stores compete with chains that own hundreds?
| dunmalg wrote:
| > can a guy who owns a few dozen stores compete with chains
| that own hundreds?
|
| With the exception of places like Costco and large truck
| stops, the vast overwhelming majority of gas stations are
| franchises where the owner is just some local guy selling
| under the Chevron or Shell or whatever name. This has some
| promotional value, of course, but the owner sets the prices
| just like any other station operator. Ultimately, they all
| buy fuel from the same local refineries or wholesalers,
| regardless of the name on the fuel truck that delivers it.
|
| Standard Oil encountered some legal issues back in 1911 by
| using its size and vertical integration to undercut
| competitors at the retail level. As a result the petroleum
| production industry is now intentionally very much NOT
| involved in retail fuel sales.
| listenallyall wrote:
| I admit to not having many actual statistics. I agree that
| most are franchises as you mention. But I strongly suspect
| that the percentage owned by major chains -- Wawa, Sheetz,
| Speedway, etc, is growing rapidly. 10 years from now, I
| believe the independent franchiser (under 10 stores) will
| be very rare.
|
| Growth example: Wawa entered Florida in 2012, according to
| Wikipedia. In 2019 it already had 167 and they expect
| Florida to surpass both PA and NJ, their traditional base,
| in 2021. Pretty sure the vast majority of the FL stores
| have gas, while many PA/NJ do not. Further, the number of
| pumps is generally much higher at the big chains, so 1 of
| their stores may equal 2-3 independent franchise stores in
| terms of customer count or gas sold.
|
| https://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-nws-pa-wawa-
| expansion-20...
| TylerE wrote:
| There are plenty of exceptions. WaWa has already been
| mentioned.
|
| Sheetz has 600+ locations and does $8b a year. All
| corporate owned and operated.
| dunmalg wrote:
| >Sheetz has 600+ locations and does $8b a year. All
| corporate owned and operated
|
| 600+ seems like a big number until you consider that
| there are 168,000 gas stations in the US. Large chains
| have a LONG way to go until they are more than a
| statistical blip, and this doesn't even take into account
| the fact that the federal government has, for over a
| century, cast a very jaundiced eye at any single entity
| using its market presence to drive competitors out of the
| retail gasoline business via undercutting on prices.
| Looking at the FTC ruling on the acquisition of Sunoco's
| fuel retail locations by 7-11, they monitor competition
| in fuel retailing VERY closely, to the point of mandating
| a certain degree of competition in specific markets.
|
| https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-
| releases/2018/03/ftc-a...
| tajalan wrote:
| Paywall
| jeffdavis wrote:
| "With oil prices then near historic lows, oil refiners were
| desperate for dealers who could move more volume."
|
| Isn't this zero sum? If one station doesn't sell the gasoline,
| another will, right? Why does the refiner care who sells it?
| taftster wrote:
| Somewhat. Shell is probably trying to position themselves
| against their competition. Yes, it's probably near zero-sum
| game, but there's still competition between the various oil
| companies, etc.
|
| So by having Said take on more stores (due to the quality and
| volume he proved) means that Shell could take a bigger piece of
| the pie.
| llrando wrote:
| If you know anything about Seattle it can be pretty easily
| implied what his business actually is doing. He buys gas stations
| in "up and coming" parts of town with high traffic and makes them
| safe by driving out the undesirables thereby increasing traffic
| from the wealthier residents who don't want to be hassled.
| Seattle has become big and increasingly unsafe so businesses that
| can provide a sense of security for their customers provide an
| increasingly better value proposition.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Here's a thought: if the percentage of cars on the road which are
| electric rises significantly over the next decade or so, will the
| corner gas-station have a problem? I have heard that the gas is
| not really the source of profits, but it is the source of the
| traffic. If fewer drivers need to fill up (or they have to do it
| less often, in the case of a hybrid), will the convenience store
| business model be threatened? Or, perhaps, it will just more or
| less seamlessly morph into the corner grocery store.
| thrwn_frthr_awy wrote:
| The end of the article talks about this specifically. Basically
| if half the gas stations close down, you just have to be in the
| top 50% to stay in business, and because of less of competition
| they can even increase margins.
| simonh wrote:
| Countries with fewer cars driving fewer miles still manage to
| have gas stations, so I think basic market economics will kick
| in. Gas will get more expensive, or stations will get a little
| more sparse, or both. After all there will still be a demand.
| esotericn wrote:
| I think it would stay about the same.
|
| You would have slightly fewer drivers as people would charge at
| home. However, that's probably a low percentage of the total.
|
| For those that stick around, the duration of a visit will
| generally increase (filling up 200 miles worth of petrol takes
| less time than 200 miles charge, even at 100kW or more).
|
| I'm more likely to buy something at somewhere I perceive to be
| 'overpriced' if I'm there for longer, want somewhere nice to
| sit and eat, etc.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Interesting point. I'm also more likely to be able to leave
| my car while it's "filling up" if I'm just plugging it in, as
| opposed to if I'm refilling the gas. It could actually work
| out for them, even if the total number of customers goes down
| by half, if they're twice as likely to go inside and buy
| something.
| esotericn wrote:
| I mean, as a data point, since getting an EV I spend way
| more in restaurants etc on breaks.
|
| Having said that this is probably because I don't pay for
| the electricity... heh
| bluedino wrote:
| Immigrant-owned convenience stores are a big business without
| the gas.
| tyingq wrote:
| Their second highest source of revenue is tobacco products,
| also in decline, and headed for more.
| leeoniya wrote:
| i submit to you, Exhibit A:
|
| https://imgur.com/UxlaMi7
|
| i snapped it as proof else no one would believe me, like
| grainy, destabilized bigfoot footage.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| Sorry, what point are you making with that foto?
| exhilaration wrote:
| I think he's saying that even Tesla owners visit gas
| station convenience stores.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| If things remain the same, business will likely flourish: such
| station can install charging equipment as well, and since
| recharging takes more time than refilling gas tank, customers
| will spend more time (and money) on site.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Something like a big fastfood chain with drive-thrus can
| probably soak up all that custom -- drop in for a burger and
| boost charge your car in the car-park for 20mins. You need to
| pair it with something that people will already spend the
| charging time doing, so they feel they're not wasting their
| stay. People don't tend to spend 15-20mins in a petrol
| station (ie "gas station") in the UK, but they will spend
| that sitting in their car at the drive-thru (I don't
| understand why they don't go in).
|
| Maybe we'll get like "short-stay malls" where there's a
| parking area with all chargers (and solar panels above the
| car-height) and around the edge are small stores with food,
| hairdressers, valeting services, and such like places?
| listenallyall wrote:
| >> If things remain the same
|
| By definition, if EVs become dominant over ICE, things
| haven't remained the same. Gasoline is voluminous, and both
| expensive and difficult to transport and store. Electricity
| requires no volume or storage, and thus the need for a
| specialized "gas station" is mostly negated, as virtually
| anyone can offer it.
|
| I imagine most workplaces will offer low-cost charging as an
| employee benefit, thus, most people will have the option to
| charge either at home or at work. How many drivers will still
| need to stop off at a gas station then?
| NeedMoreTea wrote:
| We'll replace petrol stations with using the areas for
| roadside stops with cafe, shop and charging station. The
| picture will be more like the 1950s than today with perhaps
| fewer overall. Humans will still want a break, lunch,
| opportunity to take a leak, stretch their legs etc... add
| top up charging to it and you've reinvented the gas station
| and roadside diner.
| listenallyall wrote:
| On long roadtrips, sure. But 90+% of gas stations are
| just on a random corner catering to commuters and locals
| who will no longer have much need for their services. The
| C-stores may remain, but without the necessary gas stops,
| there will be far fewer of them, perhaps as many as
| CVS/Walgreens.
|
| >> The picture will be more like the 1950s lol, is there
| any aspect of life today that feels like the 1950's?
| NeedMoreTea wrote:
| re 1950s: For how they're spaced, not how life is. Most
| will disappear from towns and cities, but remain, thrive
| and perhaps increase along routes. :p
| j2bax wrote:
| Yeah but you can't gas up at your house or at your parking
| spot at work.
| scottmcf wrote:
| Exactly. If I swapped to an electric vehicle, I estimate
| I'd need to "fill up" at a gas station maybe 5% as much as
| I do now.
| harikb wrote:
| Those factors can change. Currently charging at night at
| home is cheaper today, only because power company makes
| it so. Ideally cars should charge when the sun is up, in
| day time. If they were self driving, it could charge
| while we work. Don't assume everyone work place will
| become a gas station
| tjoff wrote:
| We are a long long way from that.
|
| And even if so driverless cars won't give them any other
| business, as well as drastically alter the desired
| locations of the stations.
| NeutronStar wrote:
| It totally depends on your power generation. Here in
| Quebec we have 97% hydro, so charging at night won't be
| more expensive than charging during the day.
| barry-cotter wrote:
| > Ideally cars should charge when the sun is up, in day
| time. If they were self driving, it could charge while we
| work.
|
| Ideally cars should charge during times when energy is
| cheaper. This could be at times of lower consumer demand,
| like at night or at times when prices are cheaper because
| variable and barely off at all controllable renewables
| are dumping power into the grid, like when it's
| especially sunny or windy.
| gruez wrote:
| >Currently charging at night at home is cheaper today,
| only because power company makes it so. Ideally cars
| should charge when the sun is up, in day time.
|
| Power's cheaper at night because demand's lower. The sun
| being out during daytime does make more solar power
| available, but there's also higher demand because
| everyone's awake. Unless there's evidence to the
| contrary, I'm inclined to believe that night power is
| cheaper because of pure market forces, rather than being
| dictated by the power company.
| dunmalg wrote:
| >charging at night at home is cheaper today, only because
| power company makes it so.
|
| They make it so because there's excess capacity at night,
| when most everyone is asleep. This is not an arbitrary
| decision.
|
| >Ideally cars should charge when the sun is up, in day
| time
|
| That's not even remotely true. Someday MAYBE, if massive
| solar deployment shifts our excess capacity from night to
| daytime, but that's certainly not the case right now.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| In 6 months driving a Renault Zoe, I have been in gas
| stations twice. Once for killing time during a rare not
| at-work charge, and once for getting a snack for my son.
|
| Gas stations are dinosaurs that haven't heard the
| shockwave of the meteor yet.
| CamelCaseName wrote:
| But at what rate do gasoline customers enter the store
| now? I suspect that rate is far lower than 5%.
|
| In that case, cars going electric would very positive
| effect. IIRC, Circle K (a large gas station chain)
| derives around half of it's profits from concession
| sales, with the other half from gas.
|
| Additionally, given the higher cost of electric cars,
| their owners are likely to be wealthier than their ICE
| driving counterparts. This is an assumption on my part,
| but I suspect that wealthier people are much less likely
| to shop at gas stations since items sold their often
| target poorer demographics. A shift to electric cars
| would mean that demographics which were already unlikely
| to enter the store are more likely to make a purchase,
| while not impacting the lower end clientele.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| The rate of customers who make additional purchases is
| closer to 50%. Source: I know a guy who runs a gas
| station. Profits from additional sales are bigger than
| from selling gas: they have 3-4% margin selling gas and
| 30-70% margin selling additional products. Coffee, wiping
| cloths, chocolate bars, etc.
| refurb wrote:
| I used to work in a gas station during high school and
| did the paper work for the owner each morning.
|
| He was a franchise, so his gas margin was even lower,
| closer to 1-2%. And yes, most of the profit came from
| inside sales where the margins were 50%+ or higher.
| brewdad wrote:
| This has to vary greatly based on location. I almost
| always go inside gas stations along a freeway trip. I
| don't know that I've been inside a "local" station in 15
| years unless the real purpose of the trip was to grab a
| Powerball ticket and the gas fill-up was incidental. So
| maybe five times total.
| listenallyall wrote:
| Much higher than 5%. Just stand outside a Wawa or
| Racetrac or Sheetz and do a quick observation.
| leeoniya wrote:
| i always wondered why the battery cannot simply be swapped
| for a charged one. like going through a carwash. would be
| even faster than filling a tank of gas.
|
| once there's enough EV, it seems justified to democratize the
| consumable batteries.
| Ididntdothis wrote:
| Unless the batteries are standardized every manufacturer
| needs their own distribution network for their batteries. I
| don't think that's viable. Making the battery swappable
| would probably also require some serious design
| compromises.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| The technology exists, but in practice I think people just
| don't want it. It is psychologically unappealing.
|
| When people are going about their business, trying to get
| from point A to B but interrupted by insufficient fuel,
| they don't want anything that feels like major surgery
| being done to their car. There's a possibility for
| something to go wrong, and no matter how statistically
| unlikely, they're still going to think about it. People
| want this to be a casual interaction that stays in the
| background of their mind so they can focus on whatever they
| were already thinking about.
|
| Also many people prefer to hold onto the thing they already
| own even if it is a convenient moment to think about
| changing. For example, if you have a cheap beater car
| that's worth $1000 and it needs an $1100 repair, you could
| buy a used $1000 beater car instead of fixing the one you
| have, but many people will pay to have theirs fixed. This
| is partly to avoid the hassle of buying but also partly
| because _their_ beater is a known quantity to them. Back to
| the electric car battery swap, maybe your battery pack is a
| few years old and only retains 90% range, which isn 't
| great, but how do you know the one you swap to won't have
| 80%? Maybe it will have 97%, but you just don't really
| know.
|
| As a thought experiment, imagine a gas station near you
| offered two options for inflating your tires. You can pay
| $2 to use a self-serve air compressor, which will probably
| take you 5 or 10 minutes. Or, for free and in only 1
| minute, a pit crew will come out and swap out your tires
| and rims for a different set, that they promise are the
| same make and model and are in equal or better condition.
| Do you take the pit crew option? I wouldn't.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| There's an Indian (IIRC) company that does this with
| scooters, eg https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Electric-
| scooters-blazing-a....
| redis_mlc wrote:
| What's interesting is that aircraft piston engines are
| remanufactured that way (using swapping.)
|
| After flying 2,000 hours, you drop your engine on a
| palette, ship it back, the mfg. sends somebody else's
| overhauled engine back to you, and you install that one.
|
| But instead of 10 minutes, it takes over a month. Oh, and
| that $10k to $100k bill per engine ...
| hamstercat wrote:
| You can, batteries are just super expensive right now. So a
| trade-in program (like it exists for BBQ gas tank, or the
| SodaStream pressured gas) doesn't make a lot of economic
| sense for the partner taking on the risk of getting a bad
| battery in.
|
| Maybe it could become a possibility in the future as the
| price drops though!
| Armisael16 wrote:
| http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/12/elon-musk-reality-
| check-t...
| kcolford wrote:
| This was actually proposed as a solution with a full
| demonstration video. I don't know of it was Elon himself
| who did it or someone else though.
| harikb wrote:
| In theory yes, but only if battery is being leased from a
| nationwide entity.
|
| However, practically it takes more than 10 minutes to
| securely remove and attach the heaviest thing in a car no
| matter how easy we make it. Super charging will already
| make it < 10 minutes
| reportingsjr wrote:
| This has been tried, in fact the original Tesla Model s had
| a swappable batteries[1], but it has never worked for a
| variety of reasons.
|
| [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlaQuKk9bFg
| HALtheWise wrote:
| From what I gather, it worked fine technically, but very
| few customers actually decided to use it. Lots of Tesla
| owners tried it once, but most realized that it wasn't
| worth paying the cost associated with additional
| complexity (it wasn't free) especially since it's
| actually really nice to have a 20 minute break after
| driving for five hours.
| sewercake wrote:
| Better Place was an early attempt at this strategy that
| ended in disaster, though I don't think you can attribute
| it to the underlying strategy. Here's a post-mortem on the
| company https://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place-
| better-pl...
| [deleted]
| scarejunba wrote:
| The magic here is he leaned on his community to everyone's
| benefit. This is a thing immigrants easily do in America and it's
| a massive competitive advantage.
|
| It works even for non-business. Immigrants will lend each other
| money for mortgage down payments, cars, exercising options,
| investments, cover expenses until long term cap gains, etc. in
| amounts most Americans would balk at. Easy six figure sums with
| no real collateral. If the investment pays off or whatever, the
| person loaning doesn't get a percentage or anything like that.
| All they get is what they already have: continued access to the
| accelerator net.
|
| I honestly think there is a cultural silliness in America about
| soloing it. Everyone who really makes it in America does so in a
| team, or because their parents boosted them, or whatever. Very
| few solo. But the dream in America is you do things yourself. The
| cultural bias towards "paid my way through college", "moved out
| at 18", "built it on my own with no help from anyone" is a
| powerful meme but does not confer benefit on the organism holding
| it.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > I honestly think there is a cultural silliness in America
| about soloing it.
|
| All tribes that have high trust between them eventually lose it
| as they economically advance. The high trust between tribe
| members is required while the tribe members need each other,
| but once a sufficient number of tribe members become self
| sufficient, the tribe starts changing into different groups,
| usually along socioeconomic lines.
|
| Rich people lend and invest with each other all the time. See
| all the companies where a kid gets funding from his parents
| friends. But they no longer identify with the immigrant tribe.
|
| I have watched this play out in my lifetime. When everyone in
| my parents' immigrant group was poor, everyone was there for
| everyone. As the decades went on, some families became very
| successful. Their children no longer associate with the less
| economically successful families, but they do with those like
| them. They go on vacations together, golf, invest in businesses
| together. But the new members of the tribe still immigrating
| will not get any support from them.
| scarejunba wrote:
| Yeah, the crucial loss is that poor and middle class
| Americans just generally have no tribe. They also worship
| this as a source of strength when it's clearly a source of
| weakness.
| forgotmypw38 wrote:
| This page is blank (though very tall) without JS.
| vpribish wrote:
| clickbait-styled headlines are repulsive
| regnarg wrote:
| Yea like wtf is a "former Egyptian engineer"? Like is he not
| Egyptian anymore?
| kyrieeschaton wrote:
| The _actual_ secret is low cost of capital and low labor costs,
| probably both in violation of various labor / tax / finance laws
| and regulations. This supposedly gave him free cash flow to
| invest in capital improvements.
|
| "in 1998, he scraped together the $75,000 down payment, much of
| it from family and others in the local Egyptian community"
|
| "One key factor: Said staffed his new location with fellow
| immigrants from his church, Saint Mary Coptic Orthodox Church in
| Lynnwood"
|
| "with the help of a broker -- another member of the local
| Egyptian community -- Said got a loan and closed the deal"
|
| "Mainly, Said checks in with his managers and staff, many of whom
| are Egyptian immigrants looking for their own start in America.
| Many are referred to Said through his church or the local
| Egyptian American community; some hear of Said even before they
| leave Egypt."
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Having talked to some immigrant workers in America about
| similar situations, I think the issue is a bit more nuanced
| than that. Yes, from what I hear, illegally low pay and
| benefits are not uncommon. However, there is also a lot higher
| sense of obligation by the employer towards the employed, since
| they are fellow members of a tight community. The boss is
| expected to put up with more of a requirement for job training,
| time off for family issues, etc. because if they are a jerk
| boss the word gets around about it in their own peer group. So,
| while they may not be subject to all of the same government
| restrictions that stranger boss-employee relations are, because
| of a tacit agreement not to report your own to the feds, they
| are also subject to a lot of extra restrictions that a stranger
| boss-employee relationship is not.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > The boss is expected to put up with more of a requirement
| for job training, time off for family issues, etc.
|
| In my experience, this is not true. The boss benefits from
| having immigrated earlier and possibly having start up
| capital due to land or family assistance from the origin
| country. The newcomers, if related to the boss or owner, may
| have an advantage and be offered a piece of equity. But
| everyone else is just cheap labor, who have no better choice
| and need to grind out 5 years so they can apply for
| citizenship so they can then sponsor their child to
| immigrate.
| darksaints wrote:
| None of those examples are illegal, and the presumption of
| criminality based on circumstantial evidence, especially in the
| case of a minority immigrant, looks far worse for you than it
| does for him.
| kyrieeschaton wrote:
| We have copious experience with this _exact business model_
| going back decades over several economic sectors and it 's
| not hard to see where the structural cost advantages come
| from. If you are, eg, properly accounting for below-market
| loans as income (on either side), or rigorously following
| overtime requirements, or equal opportunity laws, your cost
| advantages rapidly go away. "Maybe we make the stores nice"
| is not some groundbreaking innovation.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I have done business with many immigrant groups, and I have
| no qualms assuming small businesses employing recent
| immigrants who aren't fluent in local English are not
| following labor laws. Easiest ones to break are salaried
| "managers" that work 7 days a week manning gas stations.
| driverdan wrote:
| Unless you like being sued for libel you'd better have evidence
| when you accuse someone of breaking the law.
| aresant wrote:
| Scaling a location based workforce that the owner is visiting
| once a month and maintaining quality standards is hugely
| impressive.
|
| As the article explains the owner is drawing his HR from the
| Egyptian immigrant community.
|
| As such I think the "secret" of success in this tale is the
| unique funnel he has developed to find motivated, highly
| responsible, and respectful labor.
|
| Which is almost impossible to find in the US at this point with
| employment reaching all time highs.
|
| Good lesson for anybody that thinks the "buy and improve"
| strategy is going to come from giving a near minimum wage worker
| a playbook and checking in once a month.
| [deleted]
| llrando wrote:
| Right he gets a great work pool from his local church of people
| willing to go the extra mile for $15 where as typically you
| cant get anyone to even show up for that kind of money. Maybe
| access to a bit of local muscle as well if he needs it.
|
| That being said, I don't think anyone really cares how clean a
| gas station is you pump gas at is, but the convenience store
| (where all the money is made) is another matter. If its the
| cleanest/safest redbox/amazon box around people are going to be
| showing up there just for that and that's going to drive
| traffic, if you can add some other decent extras you might even
| convert them into repeat costumers. Just keeping the store
| clean and free of drug addicts is already a big competitive
| advantage in keeping customers.
| analog31 wrote:
| I kinda have to admit that I look for a cleaner gas station,
| especially on longer trips. For one thing, the gas station
| stop is also often a bathroom stop. For another, gas stations
| give me the creeps, and even if a dirty station isn't
| objectively any more creepy, the creeps are still the creeps.
| WalterBright wrote:
| I bought a tank of water and sand once from a sketchy
| looking gas station. You bet ever since I definitely buy
| gas from stations that look clean and in good repair.
| swiley wrote:
| I honestly think a big problem most US companies have is a lack
| of training in HR. Almost none of them know what they're
| looking at when they're evaluating new employees.
| abhiyerra wrote:
| I totally agree with this. Interestingly Koch Industries is
| the one company that seems to actually know and pick out
| people. It seems there may be a bias for picking out based on
| values which Said seems to be also doing based on Egyptian
| immigrant that goes to a Coptic church.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| To be frank HR seems like pre-Germ theory medicine having the
| reputation of being uncertain if it will needless maim or
| kill you vs help. Im this case the stakes are a bit lower in
| that they needlessly reject/fire good canidates and
| accept/push bad canidates for the same reason - they aren't
| that accurate or understanding of many hidden variables and
| may have bad incentives.
| hogFeast wrote:
| Yep, a family friend did this at a smaller scale in a similar
| business (not in the US).
|
| First-gen migrant, only employed other migrants from his
| community (usually from extended family), they worked just as
| hard as he did (no exaggeration: he worked 16-hour days, and
| worked close to 365 a year), and he provided an absolute first-
| rate service (and sold out to someone else at pretty much the
| top tick in the industry).
|
| I actually think the tragedy of this is that we don't have
| people like this working at a higher level. Lots of migrants
| end up in these businesses because no-one else will hire them
| (gas stations, convenience stores, car washes, etc.)...that is
| a real tragedy because they would fucking trounce any
| politician/CEO/you name it.
| KKKKkkkk1 wrote:
| > As the article explains the owner is drawing his HR from the
| Egyptian immigrant community.
|
| > As such I think the "secret" of success in this tale is the
| unique funnel he has developed to find motivated, highly
| responsible, and respectful labor.
|
| To be fair, importing cheap labor on visas with restrictive
| terms is a play from big tech's playbook.
| cushychicken wrote:
| >As the article explains the owner is drawing his HR from the
| Egyptian immigrant community.
|
| And good for him, too! He deserves to be incredibly proud of
| the work he's done. I can imagine that the two-hundred-odd
| employees he has hired represent just a fraction of the people
| he's positively effected - especially if they are Egyptian
| immigrants. Many of them likely brought their families to the
| US as well.
|
| I'm incredibly proud to be an American, hearing stories like
| this. (Unfortunately, that's in spite of our current
| administration's attitude towards immigrants. Let's hope that
| next election manages to turn that sentiment around with a new
| candidate.)
| dionian wrote:
| If he immigrated legally, I'm not sure the current
| administration has done anything to hurt him
| drharby wrote:
| The fact that this is downvoted and the parent's is not for
| speaking down on the current admin smells of a bias.
|
| I'll save face by saying I think the administration is
| adverse to many people's lives
| luckydata wrote:
| As a naturalized citizen of the United States I can tell
| you with good knowledge that.you have no clue what you're
| talking about. The Trump administration has made legal
| family reunions a lot more complex and time consuming than
| it used to be. Many other issues too that it takes just a
| little googling or some good faith to discover. That's not
| even going in the stories of American citizens arrested for
| speaking a foreign language and not being released for
| months.
|
| https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-citizens-
| ice-20180...
|
| Saying this kind of stuff at this point is not morally
| neutral, you're actively abiding an inhuman and monstrous
| regime that's killing people out of bigotry and greed, you
| should be ashamed.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > The Trump administration has made legal family reunions
| a lot more complex and time consuming than it used to be.
|
| It's an interesting contrast between "making it hard for
| an immigrant to bring in his family is a harm _to the
| immigrant_ " and "family members shouldn't suffer
| negative consequences when other family members commit
| crimes" (or "only the person who commits a crime should
| be punished for it"). The first assumes that the family
| is an extension of the person; the second assumes that
| treating the family as an extension of the person is
| unthinkable.
| o-__-o wrote:
| To be fair, as the son of an immigrant, it has been
| difficult for family to come visit since about 2010. I
| understand it's easy to blame this administration for a
| lot of things, but the immigration problem began a long
| time ago and each presidential administration has
| promised change that has only f'ed up the people who
| follow the law.
| luckydata wrote:
| It's gotten a lot worse faster in the last three years.
| I've become a citizen under Obama and it was a pretty
| simple paperwork process. Things are not the same now.
| barney54 wrote:
| I'm confused. The link you shared shows that there are
| fewer American citizens in ICE custody than during the
| Obama administration and there are fewer citizenship
| claims in court in 2017 than during the Obama
| administration.
|
| Of the examples of Americans wrong detained in the story,
| two people were arrested during the Bush administration,
| two were arrested during the Obama administration, and
| one was arrested during the Trump administration.
|
| Challenges with immigration did not start with the Trump
| administration.
| jayd16 wrote:
| Are you sure that's what it's saying? It shows there are
| less cases reviewed but that's not enough information.
|
| I can't really see where you got the numbers 2, 2, and 1
| when the graphs show hundreds of wrongful arrests a year.
| Comparing full administrations to a year and a half
| (article from April 2018) also seems quite questionable.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| I don't drive so I rarely step into a petrol station but whenever
| I do it's almost always: wtf?? It's like most operators try to
| make them as inconvenient as possible.Poor selection of products
| on shelves, toilets often not clean/locked,etc. No wonder this
| man is so successful.
| 616c wrote:
| It is so random the Egyptian-related posts that come up here!
|
| The irony here is that most of these principles Sami Said uses
| are not applied in Egypt and I doubt they would work quite the
| same. Most gas stations for normal, working class people are
| dirty and IIRC many do not have convenience stores at all. Kiosks
| are on almost every street corner, so the gas stations would be
| wasting their employee time as everyone else, car or not, can
| find those way more easily.
|
| The one exception in upper class neighborhoods and the ring roads
| that lead between Cairo and major cities, and the gas station
| rest stops, which have been cleaned up/modernized a lot since my
| first entry into Egypt in the middle of the last decade. The new
| cleaner gas stations started showing up then, but now I see many
| more of them when traveling between cities or the rich/expat-
| accommodating neighborhoods of Cairo proper (Zamalek, the fancy
| parts of Ma'adi, et cetera) all of them with On the Run
| convenience stores. After reading this I Googled, only to
| discover that is the import of an international chain, Exxon!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Run_(convenience_store)
|
| So beyond hiring other Egyptians (this is not surprising for
| Americans who see this with many different immigrant communities,
| a lot have pointed this out already), not sure why his being
| Egyptian is an important detail. It sounds like a common American
| immigrant story to me. This is usually where I make a joke about
| Neo-Orientalism (perhaps double funny since it is an Egyptian
| person with gas stations), but the article is pretty germane so
| what can we really say? lol
| [deleted]
| appleshore wrote:
| Most gas stations seem offensive and predatory in the items they
| offer customers. I understand freedom of choice and business
| models but the entire system is plagued by unhealthy and
| potentially dangerous products (eg random herbal supplements,
| synthetic cannabinoids etc). And more than half of gas stations
| in major cities don't have bathrooms (people abuse them
| obviously). And the workers are often underpaid.
|
| Verse a system that offers fair pricing, healthy options,
| positive re-enforcement, incentivizes public facing employees to
| learn CPR and first aid, paying higher wages to help upward
| mobility and savings, creating a place for community interaction.
|
| Nope, it's just sugar, cigarettes, "rhino" pills, alcohol,
| mistreated underpaid employees living a fraction of their
| potential, dirtiness and no bathrooms.
| driverdan wrote:
| > Most gas stations seem offensive and predatory in the items
| they offer customers.
|
| Convenience stores sell what customers want. If those items
| didn't sell or customers had a preference for something else
| then they'd change.
|
| > And the workers are often underpaid.
|
| No such thing. So long as someone is willing to work for a
| certain wage they're getting paid exactly what they should be.
| atonse wrote:
| Found our Robber Baron mentality right here.
|
| Nobody is "willing" to work at an un-livable wage. Forced is
| probably a better term. Not forced by their employer, but by
| circumstance.
| strathmeyer wrote:
| Gee if the wage is un-livable how are they surviving?
| CalChris wrote:
| I drive an EV so I haven't been to a gas station in years, maybe
| a decade. However, I think gas stations, maybe this guy, could
| better serve EVs.
|
| First, we're going to be at a charging station for about a half
| an hour. In fact, limit us to half an hour. Provide an L3 QC so
| we can charge. Air so we can top off our tires. Wiper fluid.
| WIFI. Got a Tesla, CHAdeMO or SAE? Great, we have an adaptor for
| that. Brownie points for a vac, garbage and recycling.
|
| Charge a flat rate, $20 (?). Got a Tesla? It goes on your
| account.
| ossworkerrights wrote:
| This seems like a recipe for success that can be applied in some
| east european countries still lagging behind the rest of the eu:
| take old and run down shop in areas with a good potential,
| provide kick ass services and improve the look and feel of
| things.
| JustSomeNobody wrote:
| Focus on customers and employees and have pride in your product.
| Now there's a lesson modern business could learn. It's _not_
| about returning all profit to the wealthy investors.
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