[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Joining Big Tech in Ones 40s
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Ask HN: Joining Big Tech in Ones 40s
Hi HN -- I'm 43, and at a bit of a crossroads. I sold my share in a
company last year and have been taking time off to figure out my
next move, and while I've mostly done startups my whole career, I
am considering going for a job at a big tech company
(FAANG/Lyft/Stripe/etc.). Does anyone have any experience doing
this? I can still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for
management? What skills should I brush up on particularly? Mostly,
I am a bit fed up with the stress and uncertainty of startups and
looking for something more stable, at least for a while.
Author : kemiller
Score : 242 points
Date : 2020-01-07 17:08 UTC (5 hours ago)
| sbussard wrote:
| Ageism is out in SV, because the biggest perpetrators grew up.
| Plus experience is worth a lot of money. If you're young or old,
| don't listen to those who say you can't do something. It's just
| one more form of resistance that successful people have to plow
| through.
| scottlegrand2 wrote:
| I'm going to disagree. Yes, the biggest perpetrators aged. But
| in my experience it became more "50 is the new 40" than it went
| away.
| fatnoah wrote:
| I think it's even more than that. I've seen a few companies
| where "people over 40" are an underrepresented group worthy of
| specific recruiting.
| tom_b wrote:
| YMMV, but in my non-FAANG experience in the mid-/south- eastern
| US, tech managers seem to make at least 1.25X for X=senior dev
| salary. Maybe keep that in mind?
|
| My dev friends over the last 10+ years have included people who
| made a management/dev track career decision and anecdotally
| speaking, those who chose management have earned more and seemed
| to have more employment stability. In a couple of cases, I have
| friends in my personal network earning 3X a senior dev salary
| managing dev teams.
|
| Personally, I decided to stick with the dev track and have been
| somewhat dismayed to find (after 10+years with one employer) that
| I am often pulled into decision/management-type situations but am
| consistently evaluated as a lower-level employee because "coder."
| It's even more annoying when I chat with my peer group who made
| the mgmt track choice and I find that the overlap between what I
| do and they do is actually _very_ large.
| Aperocky wrote:
| > my non-FAANG experience
|
| I think this is highly relevant. Traditional companies have a
| historically inherited structure where the talents to 'do
| things' are relatively easy to come by, allowing management to
| accrue larger influences and hence compensation with the
| organization. The practice has a lot of momentum as you would
| hire the same managers even for a software business, they'd
| come from one of these places.
|
| The growth of FAANG and other new tech companies threatens to
| end this by driving up the scarcity of engineering talents,
| while creating an entirely new management class that used to be
| engineers. While they do make more than most engineers in those
| companies, they take on highly technical decisions that
| management in traditional industry mostly refrain (drive &
| initiate vs select from n things).
| [deleted]
| ping_pong wrote:
| Not an issue. I'm older than you by a few years and I'm looking
| for a new job. I have 5 onsites lined up with more to come. Age
| hasn't been an issue except for expectations at places like
| Google that want to interview and hire me at L6+ level which I
| know I'm not good enough for, hence why I was never hired.
| Otherwise I'm not concerned... yet.
|
| I am an IC so I make sure my code is top notch, which means I
| need to LC for weeks before I'm ready for the onsites.
| mikece wrote:
| 1. Can you do the job? 2. Are you reliable? 3. Will you, as a
| human being, negatively affect the team?
|
| Those are the things I try to determine when I interview someone.
| czbond wrote:
| I cold applied for an L7 position at "A" recently. Going in, I
| had fear that I was under qualified. My background is CompSci,
| Management consulting and leading teams at global 5 companies,
| startup founder, and other lead positions. I left the L7
| interview wholly underwhelmed as I felt I was interviewed by
| engineers with experience an inch wide, one mile deep. Whereas I
| like to be a mile wide, 0.8 miles deep. My thoughts "maybe L8" is
| better didn't set well though...
|
| edit: I'm in Denver, and here senior leader positions are not too
| common.
| sjg007 wrote:
| Sure go for it. Pick one company and apply as a manager or lead
| and pick another and apply as an IC. Decide what you want to do.
| Tailor your resume for that role.
| jlg23 wrote:
| It basically boils down to: what are you more comfortable with?
|
| If it is management, go for it.
|
| If it is coding, be open about your expectations and go with a
| company that values your experience while accepting that you're
| there 9 to 5.
| downerending wrote:
| Broadly, you will experience significant ageism trying to come in
| as a coder/technical type. Probably less of this as a manager.
|
| That said, you should do what you want, especially if you have
| your nut already. Look for an outfit that really needs someone
| and is willing to look past age (or even sees it as an
| advantage).
| robdimarco wrote:
| I have very similar experience. I'm 42, spent most of my career
| in startups / small companies in CTO-level positions, but last
| year took an engineering position in big tech (at one of the
| companies you mention).
|
| My suggestion for someone with a lot of experience is to focus
| more on networking your way in to the company than on skills
| brush up. Find contacts at the company(s) you are interested in
| and try to set up direct meetings (in person, video conference)
| to find out more about positions, responsibilities, etc. at that
| particular company. Each company has their own unique
| philosophies and growth paths for individual contributors vs.
| eng. managers, so I don't know that there would be one generic
| piece of advice to follow.
|
| Feel free to reach out to me at <username> @ gmail if you would
| like to talk more specifics.
| Rickasaurus wrote:
| As someone in a CTO position now but being a serious IC ~5
| years ago, I'm curious. How was the transition back for you? I
| love my job, but I also miss it.
| wonjohnchoi wrote:
| I am still in my 20's and recently switched team. Switching team
| made me think a lot about what I want to do in my life, and I
| still haven't been able to figure it out. I was feeling anxious
| and worried as I felt I am old enough that I should know what I
| want to do.
|
| Reading some of comments in this thread made me realize that many
| people don't figure out what they want to do, even until 40's, so
| I feel better that I am not alone in this. I thank you all for
| sharing your perspectives with career. I will bookmark this page
| and read this whenever I feel lost with direction of my career.
| chasd00 wrote:
| i'm at the same spot. I've found the team lead role in the
| consulting industry to be enjoyable. I mentor junior devs (whole
| career mentoring in addition to technical mentoring) and try to
| setup Sr. devs to do their best work. I still get to write code
| and scratch that itch too.
|
| Consulting is nice because projects/customers come and go so
| every few months you're on to something different. Of course,
| consulting has down sides too but i seem to have a knack for it.
| pcurve wrote:
| Your mileage may vary, but I think management role is hard to
| come by at bigger companies, unless you have a connection with
| existing management who already work there. So I would hit up
| your existing connections.
|
| Also, you may already know this, but big companies have their own
| problems. Unlike at smaller companies, these are deep structural
| or cultural issues you will not be solve. Instead, you have to
| learn to make the best of it and not let it get to you.
| huangc10 wrote:
| I hate these questions because it honestly puts me off when I
| think about my future. It makes me scared of being old. 43 isn't
| even that old (isn't retiring age 65...?) and you seem to be
| confused what your profession is. I don't want to be in that
| position.
|
| If you're 43, you should know what you want to do. If you want to
| code, go for a senior/principal programming lead position. If you
| want to manage, go for a managerial position. You're asking a
| question a 20 yr old should be asking which makes me extremely
| worried what the future has in store for me. I hope that when I
| turn 40 in 2029, I could still do what I love (which happens to
| be in programming), and not have to fret if I need to change
| professions or not...this is the way.
|
| *Edit, I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but this is really what
| I feel. I hope when millennials like me start to hit 40, we can
| change the tech industry's age distribution and we no longer have
| to worry about problems like this.
| theflyinghorse wrote:
| > I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but this is really what I
| feel
|
| You are saying that OP's question makes you afraid. This has
| nothing to do with OP but everything to do with you. Go chart
| your own waters.
|
| I just clocked in 30 and post like OP's make me rethink the
| position I've held up until now which is I have until I am 40
| in tech. I love what I do and if there is a way for me to do
| for more than 10 years then Great!
| flurdy wrote:
| > If you're 43, you should know what you want to do.
|
| LOL no. I'm 43. And I change my plan more now as I get older.
| Probably as I am less scared to change and no longer live
| paycheck-to-paycheck. The kids act like a small anchor to
| prevent me from going backpacking for a year but otherwise feel
| free to change my mind all the time.
|
| Granted I have some friends/ex-colleagues at my age who knew
| what they would be doing until they retire. But they knew that
| when they joined some medium-to-big corp at 25-30 and never
| left.
|
| But I also have more and more people my age (35-45) who change
| radically what they do as perhaps it is a midlife crisis or
| just realised they can afford to change now or need to before
| it is too late. I am not sure it ever is too late.
|
| True, 25-years-old-me thought 35+ me would be a settled dad in
| a big corp and go fishing each weekend. And it turned out
| 36-years-old-me old left big corp to oscillate between startups
| and contracting and hacking each weekend instead.
| tra3 wrote:
| As you get older you'll realize that "adults" don't know any
| better than you do. Consider that moving forward. Nobody has
| all the right answers, and even fewer people know what the
| right answer is for you.
|
| I'm reminded of this quote by Baz Luhrmann:
|
| > The most interesting people I know didn't know at 22 what
| they wanted to do with their lives, some of the most
| interesting 40 year olds I know still don't.
|
| Incidentally, I'm in the same boat as the OP. I've done coding,
| I've done the management gig, not sure what life has for me in
| store in the next 5-10 years.
| daxfohl wrote:
| PG has one too (I think; a quick search can't find it) but
| there is a perspective change:
|
| "At age 20 if you're not doing bad you fell good. At age 50
| if you're not doing well you feel bad."
|
| I find that to be true, causes you to question a lot of what
| you've done in your past, and what you're doing in your
| future with the limited time you have left.
| killjoywashere wrote:
| My dad will be 75 in a little over a week. I told him I still
| don't know what I want to be when I grow up (I'm 43). He said
| he still didn't know.
| [deleted]
| daxfohl wrote:
| Yes, I did exactly this. Stayed a dev, moved to the west coast,
| got a big pay bump, job stability, and benefits. There are plenty
| of 40+ devs here. So much of the work at big companies is
| learning their huge custom domain, don't worry about any
| particular tech.
|
| Only regret is that I absolutely under leveled myself (msft L64),
| and after a couple years getting dragged through a couple of
| reorgs, I still feel like promotion is a ways off. Most of my
| peer group is 10 years younger, and most ICs of my age group are
| at least two levels up. So wait for an opportunity at the level
| you think you should be. Don't let imposter syndrome talk you out
| of it or think you can make it up after you join.
|
| But even still, I'm doing way better now than I was back in
| Michigan working for startups, even accounting for cost of
| living.
|
| Also note the most challenging change for me was getting used to
| how little control of anything you have is. I really miss being
| able to basically decide my design and implement it against
| public well-known technologies. Now so much of it is calling
| around, trying to figure out how other teams are doing things,
| coordinating with them, ensuring backward compatibility with a
| million old things, blah blah blah, it's much slower and less
| interesting. But, still worth it....I guess. (second-guessing
| myself now?)
| rc_kas wrote:
| what does it matter? global warming going to send us into an
| apocalypse in 2-3 years anyways.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| That's a pretty broad question, isn't it? Besides your age and
| that you used to work at startups and dislike the stress, there
| isn't much to go on for guidance. Who knows if you're suited for
| management, would be better as a code monkey, or what skills you
| need to brush up on?
| complianceowl wrote:
| Not to be disrespectful, but your response sounds like those
| arrogant Stack Overflow responses that are simply not helpful.
| There is enough in his question for anyone to provide a proper
| answer.
| jimmyvalmer wrote:
| > Not to be disrespectful
|
| It's okay to be disrespectful. It's not okay to preface that
| disrespect with an overtly false disclaimer.
| complianceowl wrote:
| It's actually NOT okay to be disrespectful. Saying
| someone's response was "arrogant" is not disrespectful;
| calling them stupid for being arrogant - that would be
| disrespectful.
|
| Perceiving my comment to be disrespectful, I think, is a
| part of the larger societal problem that exists today;
| namely, of people being overly-sensative.
|
| Friend, I will gently invite you to toughen up.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| The only question (and it appears to be the majority of the
| responses here) that looks like you can answer well is if
| other people have done what he's considering doing. Maybe
| that's the discussion he's looking for; the comments to that
| affect are definitely good.
|
| The remaining questions regarding coding vs. management or
| what skills to 'brush up on' are very person-dependent beyond
| general platitudes. Sure, discussions can be had, but it kind
| of depends on what he wants.
| complianceowl wrote:
| I appreciate the response.
| yodsanklai wrote:
| Same age, I recently interviewed at two FAANG companies.
|
| Mostly algorithms and system design interviews. I thought I did
| pretty well (something like 3 very good interviews, 1 good, and 1
| ok). In both cases, the conclusion was that my results were good
| enough for an L4 position, but they wouldn't hire me for less
| than L5. (Why not, I'd be happy as an L4...). Also, I found the
| interview process pretty random and arbitrary. One company
| praised my algorithmic skills, while the other said that I did
| very well on system design). They encouraged me to re-apply.
|
| I'm not concerned about the actual job, I don't feel less capable
| than my 30 year old self. I'm more knowledgeable, and I have more
| experience with human interactions.
|
| The interviewers all told me that you don't have to be a manager
| if you don't want to, and that good developers were always
| valued, regardless of their age. I don't know how much of this is
| true though. I can't help thinking that my age had played against
| me in the final decision.
|
| The interview process is a pain. It's very random, it takes a lot
| of time preparing (some people literally spend months working
| full time). The things they ask you have very little value
| besides getting you a job. At least, it's kind of fun to work on
| these leetcode problems, but after 200 hundred variations of BST
| and dynamic programming exercices it starts to get old. Also, if
| you already have a demanding job (and maybe a family), it's hard
| to find the time to practice.
|
| If you spend enough time preparing AND if you aren't stressed out
| during the actual interview, I think you can pass with reasonable
| probability the algorithm interviews. I found system designs a
| little more random. My question wasn't in the "syllabus" they
| provided me. Also, as an older programmer, there may be many
| things that you knew a few years back. You're disadvantaged
| compared to a younger graduate.
| dominotw wrote:
| its not random, you can learn how to hack it by reading these
| on leetcode
|
| https://leetcode.com/discuss/interview-experience/360829/ama...
| [deleted]
| southphillyman wrote:
| >In both cases, the conclusion was that my results were good
| enough for an L4 position, but they wouldn't hire me for less
| than L5. (Why not, I'd be happy as an L4...).
|
| Can you elaborate on this? Were you interviewing specifically
| for L5 roles? I wonder if years of experience or even
| achievements can be used against a candidate by raising the bar
| so to speak. Maybe one is a L5 at their current company but
| only a L4 elsewhere. As long as you can contribute at whatever
| level is appropriate for the given company I don't think it
| should be held against the candidate.
| twblalock wrote:
| > I wonder if years of experience or even achievements can be
| used against a candidate by raising the bar so to speak.
|
| It can be, and I've seen it. In general there is an
| assumption that people who come in at too low a level
| relative to their experience won't be happy and won't stay,
| so it's not a good idea to hire them.
|
| Obviously some people are exceptions, but hiring managers
| will err on the side of caution.
| abacadaba wrote:
| aka, blatant age discrimination
| yodsanklai wrote:
| I was applying for a software engineering position. No
| particular level was specified. After the interviews, the
| recruiter basically told me that they couldn't make me an
| offer for a L4 position, considering my experience (I think
| he mentioned 7 years of experience). Interestingly, I had the
| exact same explanation at two different companies.
|
| A year later a different recruiter from the same company
| contacted me again to ask me to re-interview. Then he
| contacted the recruiter from one year ago to see if I had to
| retake the initial phone interview, or go directly on site.
| After discussing with her, he told me that they don't have
| currently an L5 position open, and that he would be contact
| me again in a few months (which he didn't).
| southphillyman wrote:
| Thanks, I hear a lot of stories of people being down
| leveled but it sounds like some companies have strict bands
| related to YOE. L4 appears to be mid level and I guess 7
| yrs if on the upper limits of that but you'd think they'd
| give you the option of being down leveled or not to get
| your foot in the door.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Farther up the page is a comment that rings true to me:
| companies who have a surplus of applicants are prone to
| rationally bias their hiring practice to avoid making
| poor hires even at the risk of rejecting strong
| candidates.
|
| Just because someone with many years of experience levels
| lower than typical doesn't make them a bad person or even
| a bad hire. But it does make them a more risky candidate
| to hire (more likely to be "middle of the pack"; less
| likely to be "undiscovered superstar"), and so some
| companies choose to pass.
|
| (I'm arguing that this is _rational_ , not that it's
| _right_ , _fair_ , or _morally sound_.)
| lubesGordi wrote:
| Well, I'd argue it still isn't rational given that the
| testing done during the interview is usually not telling
| much about the candidates engineering prowess.
| StevePerkins wrote:
| > _" it sounds like some companies have strict bands
| related to YOE"_
|
| I don't see how this could be legal, even in an employer-
| friendly a nation as the U.S.
|
| Sure, there are some outlier candidates who enter the
| field later in life as a second career. But for the
| overwhelming majority of candidates, "years of
| experience" is a very thin proxy for "age". I can
| understand requiring a _minimum_ YOE, but there 's no
| reasonable justification for a _maximum_.
| [deleted]
| nbm wrote:
| L4 is an intermediary level between new-to-industry
| junior (new grads generally start at L3) and mid-level
| (L5). In many companies, it's expected that people will
| reach L5 within some time period.
|
| Failing to have grown skills and project scope to L5
| level after extensive time in the industry could be
| interpreted by some as poor motivation or career growth
| planning - their thinking is that if you've been doing
| the same thing for years elsewhere without growing,
| you'll tend to be trying to do the same things for years
| there without growing.
| yodsanklai wrote:
| > Failing to have grown skills and project scope to L5
| level after extensive time in the industry
|
| The projects I've worked on in my career haven't been
| considered in the interview process. They just expected
| better results on their standardized interviews (algo +
| system design) compared to a more junior candidate. I
| don't think the question they ask correlate at all with
| candidate experience, even for the system design part.
|
| But overall, I think it's an imperfect but fair process.
| southphillyman wrote:
| Is there a guide for what type of projects FAANG expect
| for L5+? There was just a thread here about a guy
| slacking for multiple years, so are their L5s even
| working on complex projects themselves?
|
| An individual might be trying to get into a FAANG in
| order to get experience with technically complex projects
| of a certain scope. A lot of roles out here at non tech
| or smaller firms are just building and maintaining simple
| CRUD interfaces. The business domain may be complicated
| but the tech execution is probably not. I thought the
| algo gauntlet was a equalizer where exceptional coders
| could clear the bar regardless of education or work
| history.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > After the interviews, the recruiter basically told me
| that they couldn't make me an offer for a L4 position,
| considering my experience (I think he mentioned 7 years of
| experience).
|
| Unless I'm missing some details, this actually sounds like
| age discrimination.
| krn wrote:
| > Unless I'm missing some details, this actually sounds
| like age discrimination.
|
| Wouldn't it be the same as not hiring a 30-year-old
| basketball player who is performing at the same level as
| a 25-year-old player in the same position?
| sindaccos wrote:
| in your 40s your big picture management skill would be more
| valuable than technical skill.
|
| you need to disclose what was your role in these startups.
|
| if you want to go back to coding at FANG there would be less
| ageism but it will still be there. Be sure to brush up your algo,
| data structure. I would suggest finishing a book of programming
| interview and you should be set.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Big picture yes, but in tech management:
|
| Big picture infrastructure
|
| Big picture domain knowledge
|
| Big picture risk management
|
| Big picture release management
|
| Big picture languages
|
| Big picture frameworks
|
| Big picture architecture
|
| Big picture maintainability
|
| Big picture knowledge sharing
|
| Big picture build infrastructure
|
| Big picture etc
|
| If you have a _GOOD_ senior, you will safe a lot of time on bs,
| and will make your junior devs shine like rockstars.
| bilekas wrote:
| > in your 40s your big picture management skill would be more
| valuable than technical skill.
|
| I don't like this assumption: Some of the older engineers &
| architects I know are incredibly more adept at developing than
| management, and speaking with a lot of them, most are pushed
| into management roles instead of desiring them.
| cmsonger wrote:
| I joined Google at the age of 50. Just send a resume. They are
| not trying to surprise you and want you to do your best.
| Consequently, not only do they tell you what to expect from the
| interview process, the recruiter will send you a PDF that talks
| through what to expect along with a reading list you can use to
| prepare. (For example: cracking the coding interview and CLRS are
| on it.)
|
| That said, I just went in cold. If you've been coding and are
| current in one of the 3 big interview languages
| (C++/Java/Python), and if you still understand your undergraduate
| level algorithms course and the corresponding vocabulary, then
| you know what you need to know.
|
| Side note: A thing that no one told me but that I had to figure
| out on my own is that your technical writing skills are one of
| the most important skills to doing well at google. It was
| unironically said to me that the highest reward/effort one can do
| at Google is to write documents. The person who said it was
| correct about that IMO.
| decebalus1 wrote:
| You advice is sound but incomplete.
|
| > if you still understand your undergraduate level algorithms
| course and the corresponding vocabulary, then you know what you
| need to know
|
| speaking from experience, this would not get you nowhere near
| the level you have to be for passing the Google interview (or
| any other FAANG interview for that matter). You need to study
| long and hard in addition to solving OJ problems and
| familiarize yourself with different problem patterns. Let me
| give you and example of what I got at Google:
| https://leetcode.com/problems/remove-duplicate-letters/ Solving
| this problem optimally with only what you remember from
| undergrad algo courses is impossible. You either need to have a
| knack for these types of challenges or solve enough of them to
| identify a solution pattern.
| matt-attack wrote:
| > You must make sure your result is the smallest in
| lexicographical order among all possible results.
|
| Can someone explain this? I can't even parse that sentence.
| Blakestr wrote:
| Basically alphabetical order, but if you don't say
| lexicographical, it doesn't sound as smart. (I am assuming
| it's a more comprehensive term, having to do with other
| characters, other than simple letters, so that if integers
| were used, it would appear as 1234, where saying "in
| alphabetical order"doesn't make sense. But yeah, I did a
| double take.
| [deleted]
| kayoone wrote:
| in other words, the shortest string in alphabetical order
| shric wrote:
| Smallest as in order not length.
|
| In the second example with input cbacdcbc a possible
| solution would be cbad but acdb is "smaller" (ordered
| before).
| krn wrote:
| > Let me give you and example of what I got at Google: [...]
| Solving this problem optimally with only what you remember
| from undergrad algo courses is impossible. You either need to
| have a knack for these types of challenges or solve enough of
| them to identify a solution pattern.
|
| I have never tried to solve such problems before, but
| wouldn't it be enough to convert the string into a set of
| chars, then into an array of chars, sort it, and return as a
| string?
| decebalus1 wrote:
| > wouldn't it be enough to convert the string into a set of
| chars, then into an array of chars, sort it, and return as
| a string?
|
| No. Please re-read the problem statement. It's way more
| complicated than that. If you figure out how to do it, try
| to figure out how to do it in O(N).
| [deleted]
| jefftk wrote:
| For what it's worth, I've interviewed 200+ engineers at
| Google and I think the problem you linked is not a good
| interview problem. I'm sorry you were asked it!
|
| A good problem gives people with algorithms ability a space
| to demonstrate that, but it should also give space for
| demonstrating strengths in design, coding, communication,
| etc. This one is almost all algorithms, of the "have you seen
| things like this before" variety, plus a small amount of
| code.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Does Google interview training emphasize that? Even in
| companies that claim not to give leetcode questions, they
| do pop up; everyone isn't really on the same page and there
| seems to be a lot of luck involved.
| jefftk wrote:
| I went through interview training 5+ years ago, but that
| was covered then and I believe it's still covered now.
| Because interviews are mostly conducted by engineers who
| do it as an occasional thing there are many inexperienced
| interviewers.
|
| (Speaking only for myself)
| braythwayt wrote:
| Anybody in their 40s or older has valuable experience above and
| beyond ephemeral value of "Hitting the ground running with
| Cabbage and Sprouts containerized with Cuper9s using ES2020 and
| JSxyz."
|
| One way to deliver that experience is in delivery management,
| that is, being responsible for teams that ship stuff.
|
| Another way to deliver that experience is in people management.
| Not all companies equate this with the previous responsibility.
|
| A third way in in a more nebulous "leadership" role that doesn't
| have "manager" in the title, e.g. "Architect," or "Principal
| Engineer."
|
| The latter is tricky, but can be a very good opportunity. My 2c
| on being in engineering leadership is that it's best to think of
| yourself as a manger without authority, rather than thinking of
| yourself as an engineer with authority.
|
| - - -
|
| FWIW, I am 57 and a Principal Engineer with PagerDuty.
| dfsegoat wrote:
| > _" A third way in in a more nebulous "leadership" role that
| doesn't have "manager" in the title, e.g. "Architect," or
| "Principal Engineer."_
|
| As a technical lead (getting into my 40s soon) I try to think
| of myself as an chief enabler / support net: Let the team
| figure out implementation, support them as they go where they
| get out of their depth - and protect them from DIRECT trickle
| down BS/interruptions from management or clients.
|
| This has worked pretty well for me thus far, but I've really
| got no idea if this is a solid approach or way of thinking.
|
| I'm curious to know anyones thoughts?
| o_____________o wrote:
| > it's best to think of yourself as a manger without authority,
| rather than thinking of yourself as an engineer with authority
|
| That's great, and resonates
| vikasg wrote:
| Andy Grove talks about this in "High Output Management". He
| says there are two kinds of managers, "know-how" managers and
| "position" managers. Both have a certain amount of authority,
| and a successful technology company needs both.
|
| If you're a senior enough person who doesn't want to manage
| people, you should think of yourself as a "know-how"
| (knowledge, experience) manager and find a role that allows
| for that.
| alexgartrell wrote:
| It's also been my experience as an engineering manager that
| it's best to think of yourself as a manager without
| authority.
| Diederich wrote:
| I started at my second 'FAANG' company when I was 48, two years
| ago, and it's been great. The previous 'FAANG' company was less
| great, but still fairly ok.
|
| In between and before those, I have worked at two startups and
| three other in-between (in size) organizations, as well as two
| non-tech giants, over the course of about 27 years now. Kind of
| takes my breath away seeing that last number!
|
| As others here have noted, no matter where you work, one of the
| most important things is your manager. I've had good managers and
| bad managers, and my less happy time at the previous 'FAANG' was
| largely due to a bad manager.
|
| Having said that, the department/group you're in is also
| important. I had a great manager at one of the large (but not
| giant) companies but the department had big problems. It was a
| relatively comfortable but in the end unproductive couple of
| years. (And also why I decided to move on relatively quickly.)
|
| Re: skills to brush up on: honestly, I suggest just start
| interviewing heavily and use that as a template to figure out
| what you need to learn.
|
| The big tech companies have the luxury of having tons of
| talented, qualified people trying to work there, and so structure
| the interviewing process to be biased toward turning away
| qualified people rather than accepting unqualified people.
|
| That means that the interview process can be pretty strenuous.
|
| Re: trying for management: I was a manager briefly, early on in
| my career, and decided that I was never going to do that again. I
| was relatively good at it, but I didn't like it, so all of my
| roles have been technical, though of course a lot of the best
| things I've accomplished involved large quantities of 'soft',
| non-technical people work.
|
| Re: fed up with uncertainty. Yup, I totally get that, and it's
| the main reason I haven't done more with startups. I value my
| personal/family time too much, and always have.
|
| Feel free to contact me directly: diederich@gmail.com
|
| Best of luck.
| guyzero wrote:
| I was 37 when I joined Google in a senior IC role in 2008, so
| nearly my entire 40's. It's still work, there are still issues
| with coworkers and there's still stress compared to the startups
| I used to work at. The company isn't going to go out of business
| but you can still get a manager who doesn't communicate well and
| gives you bad performance reviews as a result. Google turns over
| more employees in a month than the entire headcount of some of my
| previous companies. And GOOG is a huge company - if anyone says
| it's either great or horrible that's probably true for them, but
| it doesn't mean much for what your experience is going to be. I
| honestly don't think that being young is really much of an
| advantage one way or other here - there are successful people in
| the 40's here, even ICs, there are a lot of new grads who wash
| out after a year or two and go elsewhere. Big companies have much
| more idiosyncratic tech stacks so knowing any particular
| technical skill isn't that huge a deal as we probably don't use
| it anyway. Know the basics, know how to write, know how to manage
| up.
|
| edit: reading some other comments I think it's easier to be an
| older IC at big companies than startups/small companies. But
| whether you should pursue a management track is a completely
| different question.
| unoti wrote:
| I was 47 when I joined Microsoft and am currently a principal
| engineer working as an individual contributor doing engineering
| work. Before that I was running my own startup for several years.
| There are jobs available in everything imaginable including
| product management, engineering, management, and blends of those
| three.
|
| The age thing wasn't a problem for me interviewing for an
| engineering position. However, I had some difficult engineering
| interviews with senior and principal engineers. You should
| prepare hard to interview very well. The hardest part is
| convincing young senior engineers that you're as good of a
| develop as they are or better.
| rb808 wrote:
| I'm in a similar position. I think if you have experience they
| really try to interview you for senior positions where you are
| defining technical architectural standards and teaching others.
| That makes it tough if you just want to code, but maybe suits
| you.
|
| At least in the initial stages it seems FAANG companies at least
| are very good at ignoring age for applicants, later stages though
| are tougher when most people interviewing you are half your age.
| rlt wrote:
| I'm not quite as old, but I struggle with this question too.
| Programming and building shit is my passion, and I'd probably be
| a terrible manager, but I've been conditioned to believe
| management is the wise path for aging software engineers.
| noir_lord wrote:
| Same and same except I have more management than programming
| time but I enjoy mentoring so that side is fun, if I want to
| scratch my own itch I have side projects for that when I want.
|
| It's a trade-off though, by choice I'd be programming most of
| the time.
| lvspiff wrote:
| As a senior manager of a development team at a Fortune 10 company
| that consists of many members who are in their 40's or older one
| of the things I'm looking at during the interview process is
| their ability to logic and reason. That ability alone seems to be
| so much stronger just due to living the ups and downs. Displaying
| this, focusing on this, is by far one of those things that makes
| you stand out.
|
| One of the biggest pitfalls of ICs regardless of age (but I see
| it more as some get older) is the inability to break free from
| the past. If you cant learn, or refuse to accept, anything new
| have no use for you. Tech is changing constantly and if you can't
| tout something you are looking forward to and just constantly
| looking back on that one project you did and using that same
| method/tool/tech it really makes it difficult to envision.
|
| There are IC roles that are "lead" but not management which our
| company calls "Principal" consultants - that seems to be the
| latest term in the industry that everyone is going with to denote
| someone at a high level of expertise who contributes at somewhat
| of a manager level but not necessarily of people just of projects
| but is still more of an IC than a project manager.
| streetcat1 wrote:
| So you should separate tech companies, from companies that use
| tech.
|
| Tech companies really care about your tech skills (assuming that
| you do not want to go to the manage route), so age should not be
| an issue. However, skills might be an issue. I.e. if you spent
| your career in companies that use tech, you might not have deep
| specialization.
|
| Companies that use tech, are easier, which tends to bring less
| experienced developers, which usually are younger and might
| create ageism.
| nameseemslegit wrote:
| I joined a FAANG company when I was about 40 years old around
| just a couple of years ago coming from a sequence of startups and
| smaller companies. I think the biggest adjustment to make is the
| performance review systems. At these big companies performance is
| not about doing right things, but about fitting in with insular
| expectations. The senior folks who you would hope could mentor
| you may have no idea that you don't "get it" or what kind of
| feedback it requires to make the transition. In contrast, a lot
| of feedback you get at smaller companies is to just focus on
| doing right things for the business and not worry about any
| defined expectations.
|
| I have seen some people make the transition smoothly... others
| not so much.
| 4ydx wrote:
| I've interviewed and failed often enough (with google) to know it
| is never going to happen.
| southphillyman wrote:
| Not in my 40s yet but I'm in a similar position. I'm going to
| take some time off and prep for FAANG interviews. The benefit of
| the algo focused interview is it seems like there would be less
| ageism there as less of the criteria is based on behavior or fit
| type questions. Maybe I'm off here but that's what it appears
| like. I recently attended a Google recruiting event where a lot
| of the Googlers there were over 40 and recently joined the
| company, a couple of people even looked to be over 50.
| harel wrote:
| I don't know where you live, but I'm guessing you're in the US.
| I'm 43 as well, been mostly the startup world for 20+ years -
| similar journey (worked, founded, etc). After my last startup got
| sold (not at best terms), I also took the time to relax a bit
| (and ended up rebooting another business and starting another
| instead).
|
| Anyway, after my timeout I got back into contracting. First of
| all, I've never encountered ageism and my experience was always
| appreciated. It could be to do with my attitude, or maybe ageism
| is not a thing in the UK as it is elsewhere. I think attitude
| helps and if you come across as a friendly experienced person you
| will be able to get in.
|
| My question to you would be why go for the "Larger" tech
| companies? Why not focus on established smaller companies? I
| personally equate those with start-up level stress but less
| ability to affect things. Again, just my personal perspective.
| Second point - do try contracting. It's quite liberating not
| being tied to a place in a long term mental-bond. The market is
| great for contracts (at least in the UK).
| wefarrell wrote:
| "I can still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for
| management?"
|
| HN can't answer this for you. Which do you prefer?
| jawns wrote:
| I think the unspoken question is whether it is more prudent for
| a person of this age to pursue an individual contributor role
| or a role in the management track. Take this for what it's
| worth, but anecdotally I've heard a lot of programmers find
| that once they hit this age, opportunities as an individual
| contributor are more limited. So if the goal is to get a stable
| job at a large tech company, then the question is which track
| to pursue, and I think the decision process should go like
| this:
|
| Really love coding, really hate management: Apply for IC.
| Tolerate/enjoy management: Apply for management.
| kemiller wrote:
| I am a great people manager, but it's subject to the monkey
| in the middle problem, which I find stressful.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Why not try sliding into project management or product
| management? It's not "real" people management since you
| typically have no direct reports, but these careers allow
| you to remain technical and I've encountered way less
| ageism here.
| sulam wrote:
| I would not recommend trying to interview as a manager for any
| large tech company without having first been a manager in another
| role. I would also not recommend doing this for small startups,
| but some may be willing to hire you into such a role without you
| being able to point to concrete experience in the role (the
| filters aren't as strong).
|
| I say this because that is personally a cardinal rule of mine,
| and I've never heard anyone contradict it -- hiring a manager
| comes with inherent risk, and you significantly add to that risk
| by hiring someone that hasn't done it before. If you want to try
| out management, you should first get a job as an individual
| contributor somewhere and then move into a management job in that
| company. They will know a lot more about you from having worked
| with you and you will know a lot more about the team, the
| company, etc and have a much higher chance of being successful.
|
| This is really a two-way street, you are much more likely to be
| successful this way as well. The interview process is simply too
| artificial to get a good read on how someone will do as a manager
| when they don't have previous experience.
| lostdog wrote:
| > I would not recommend trying to interview as a
| manager...without having first been a manager in another role.
|
| This is my experience too. Companies don't like hiring managers
| without at least a little experience, and often are resistant
| to hiring first level managers at all. Instead, they look for
| "senior IC, but manager material" candidates, and extend an IC
| offer with a loose expectation of becoming a manager in a year
| or so. It's not an explicit role you can apply for, but you can
| target it by applying for an IC role and keeping any leadership
| and team-focused experience visible on your resume and during
| your interviews.
|
| As I get older, this is the bucket I tend to get put in during
| interviews, and then after joining I decide if I want to be a
| manager this time around.
| syndacks wrote:
| What's the bar for being hired as a FAANG engineering manager?
| Prev FAANG management experience? Prev FAANG IC role? Cursory
| LinkedIn searches show many FAANG engineering managers were
| promoted from within or came from a similar position at a
| similar company. FWIW I've been both an IC before and have
| steadily moved to CTO at my current startup. I come from a non
| traditional background (non CS) but had several leadership
| roles there.
|
| Thanks.
| nbm wrote:
| Being hired in as an engineering manager requires having been
| an engineering manager previously (at any company), generally
| for a reasonable period (let's say, minimum two years of
| full-time management experience minimum with at least 3
| direct reports), with a career YOE of around at least five
| years. You're generally coming in at the same pay band as a
| senior IC (you might be able to see this sort of information
| in levels.fyi), so you'll be in the same ballpark of
| experience/career trajectory.
|
| If you don't have enough engineering manager experience, you
| can generally join as an IC (with a full IC interview loop)
| with a view to converting to manager. You may have additional
| discussions or even interviews around management as well,
| especially if converting to manager is something you identify
| as a career goal (as opposed to an option).
|
| Converting to manager from an IC is generally pretty easy if
| you've shown good aptitude for leadership - the larger
| companies generally find it a lot easier to hire ICs than
| good managers externally, so internal conversions are
| necessary to keep up with demand for quality management
| attention on teams.
| danellis wrote:
| I don't think age really has much to do with it. Apart from
| having more experience, joining somewhere in your 40s is pretty
| much like joining somewhere in your 30s. If you want to code,
| code. If you want to manage, manage. But don't decide based on
| age.
|
| 42 at MS
| powowow wrote:
| I'm a Sr Manager at a FAANG company (and I started here in my
| 40s). My direct reports include other SDMs, senior product
| managers, and staff/principal engineers.
|
| You mention "trying" for management. If you haven't previously
| managed people, then you probably won't be able to get a good SDM
| role directly. Instead, your best path would be to be hired as an
| SDE, demonstrate strong managerial bones (mentorship,
| communication, process orientation), and then transition to SDM
| after a few years.
|
| If you've mostly been an engineer, then you may want to learn
| more about what's expected from different levels of engineer so
| you can determine, realistically, where your experience will be
| sufficient, and where there will be gap.
| ryandrake wrote:
| > You mention "trying" for management. If you haven't
| previously managed people, then you probably won't be able to
| get a good SDM role directly.
|
| This is very true. No company I've interviewed with so far was
| willing to hire a manager who hasn't previously managed people.
|
| > Instead, your best path would be to be hired as an SDE,
| demonstrate strong managerial bones
|
| I've tried this strategy a number of times and I wish it was
| that straightforward. Usually, even internal management roles
| are set aside for people who have already managed people
| before. So, you'll take the time to be an outstanding IC,
| develop credibility with the team and good communication
| skills, focus on process building... then finally the workload
| grows to the point where you need more than yourself and you
| think "now is my chance!" You go to your manager and propose to
| hire a few people under you and SURPRISE he already hired an
| experienced manager who will have three reports including you!
| Bummer!
| fatnoah wrote:
| >I've tried this strategy a number of times and I wish it was
| that straightforward.
|
| I'm currently at a FAANG and it is that straightforward. You
| don't just say, "hey, I should have people under me" but you
| do say that you're interested in managing folks some day. The
| company even offers a specific development track and training
| for people that want to do that.
|
| That's also how I got into management at a non-FAANG company.
| I was hired as an IC, but indicated that my desire was to be
| a manager. I eventually became a VP.
|
| Obviously every place is different, but you do need to make
| your desires known.
| syndacks wrote:
| I'm curious if you can answer the question I posed on this
| thread a few sibblings up. Thanks.
| syndacks wrote:
| What's the bar for being hired as a FAANG engineering manager?
| Prev FAANG management experience? Prev FAANG IC role? Cursory
| LinkedIn searches show many FAANG engineering managers were
| promoted from within or came from a similar position at a
| similar company.
|
| FWIW I've been both an IC before and have steadily moved to CTO
| at my current startup. I come from a non traditional background
| (non CS) but had several leadership roles there.
| nbm wrote:
| Answered at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21985518
| kemiller wrote:
| I should be clear. I've been in hybrid or management positions
| for many years now so it's not a matter of trying out managing,
| it's a matter of going in cold.
| bilekas wrote:
| What do you enjoy ?
|
| > I am a bit fed up with the stress and uncertainty of startups
| and looking for something more stable, at least for a while.
|
| I think you have answered your own question there for the most
| part, and I don't think its too much to ask for a bit of
| stability.
|
| Personally, I would advise you take some time to think about what
| areas & roles you enjoyed the most, as you're looking for
| something possibly long term, don't make it difficult `WORK`,
| instead make it something you enjoy.
|
| Then you can dedicate your time looking for the
| projects/companies you really are excited about.
|
| Sounds like a dream, but theres no reason why you can't suit
| yourself!
|
| Best of luck!
|
| PS: I don't think you should worry about your age, if thats why
| it was in the title; but if you're like me, over time I lose
| patience with people who wonthave a genuine discussion & be open
| to being wrong. But this is a maturity thing that you can asses
| at interview time I guess.
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