[HN Gopher] Lyft's algorithm is trying to block people with name... ___________________________________________________________________ Lyft's algorithm is trying to block people with names like 'Dick' and 'Cummings' Author : danso Score : 91 points Date : 2020-01-11 20:07 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.theverge.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com) | tempsy wrote: | Sounds like a bad product manager. Could've talked to literally | any company that has a real name policy on common pitfalls and | this would be near the top. | haunter wrote: | A german user was banned on Twitter for writing "Die Boomer" = | "the boomers" | | https://www.dw.com/en/german-grammar-in-ok-boomer-tweet-gets... | | Also my all time favorite when Facebook banned people posting | about faggots which is a traditional food in the UK Midlands | | https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/10419598/Man... | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food) | noodlesUK wrote: | I have to say, when I first moved back to the U.K. after a long | time in the states, I absolutely could not control my shock | followed by giggling when people asked if they could bum a fag | off me at a pub or suchlike. (Fag is slang for cigarettes for | those outside the U.K.) | reaperducer wrote: | I've always known the word "fag" to also mean a bundle of | sticks, like you'd use to start a fire. I expect the meanings | are related. | | Life seems to be peppered with problems with people with | limited vocabularies who would rather make themselves | "offended" by something, rather than think. | | See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_t | he_word_n... | 0x8BADF00D wrote: | Ah the good old Scunthorpe problem. Funny to see people still run | into it. | hprotagonist wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem | | the scunthorpe problem will never die. | [deleted] | shalmanese wrote: | You could almost say it's a clbuttic problem. | userbinator wrote: | At least they did not try to modify the names... imagine if | every Dick got renamed to Penis! | vanniv wrote: | Tech companies will never learn. | | How many times must we go through "real names" idiocies before | these supposed geniuses stop being imbeciles | danso wrote: | I don't think this is really a case of a "real name" policy | gone awry. For starters, to be a Lyft driver, you have to | supply your driver ID (including your official name). The issue | at hand seems to be the names the drivers choose to be visible | to users on the app, e.g. "Jon" instead of "Jonathan". If Lyft | had a real name policy, they would just force drivers to | display their name as it appears on their submitted driver's | ID. | minimaxir wrote: | Real name policies are not a good analogy here, as being on | Lyft requires in-person interaction. | vanniv wrote: | What does an in-person interaction have to do with the idiocy | of building software to decide what names people are allowed | to have? | petre wrote: | Philip K. Dick would get a dystopian feeling about this if he | were alive. | danso wrote: | Besides the humor of how Lyft's filter flagged traditionally | Caucasian names like "Cummings" - _in addition_ to the usual | issues with non-Western names, e.g. Pimpong and Poon - I 'm | fascinated/confused how this made it into production? The user | database _already_ exists and was currently being used by the | live application. Before deploying this new filter onto the | production database, wouldn 't you do a dry run to get not _only_ | the count of users who will be flagged and notified, but a | listing of frequently flagged names? Which you could easily | manually eyeball to make sure there weren 't obvious false | positives? | | With a userbase as big as Lyft's, I'm sure there were a ton of | obvious true positives (anyone named "Fuck", ostensibly). I just | can't believe they didn't notice a surname as relatively common | as Cumming/Cummings. Yes, the apparent naivety of the regex is an | issue, but this seems like a system for which a lot of testing on | actual data would be easy and natural to do as part of the QA | process. | qwerty456127 wrote: | This is all bullshit anyway. A word is just a word and whenever | it insults somebody it's their own problem. I would rather | change my actual name to Fuck if I wasn't too lazy to deal with | problems like that. | | I once read a story of a Vietnamese man named Hui. He had to go | to the court to protect his right to be named this way in | Ukraine where the word is used widely and has only one meaning | - a dick. | reaperducer wrote: | _A word is just a word and whenever it insults somebody it 's | their own problem._ | | There was a study linked to on HN a couple of years ago that | found that babies recognize swear words even before they have | language skills, and that people can sometimes recognize | swear words in languages they don't speak. It has to do with | the tone and sharpness of the sounds. | qwerty456127 wrote: | Does this mean a baby, whose father's name is Dick would | feel bad and/or get mentally traumatized? | lostlogin wrote: | > It has to do with the tone and sharpness of the sounds. | afandian wrote: | Precisely the opposite. | reaperducer wrote: | Since a credit card is required to use Lyft, why not just | validate the name on the card with the card company and make it | the issuer's problem? | andrewbarba wrote: | A credit card is not required to use Lyft. You can use credit | from gift cards or promo codes, as well as 1 time payment | methods like Apple Pay which are completed at time of ride | booking and do not expose names | danso wrote: | I just tried to create a driver's account on Lyft's website. | There's an initial page where you give them your name. And | then, deeper into the process, a form for supplying your name | as it officially appears on your driver's license. | | Which makes sense. There's likely a lot of drivers who want | to go by "Tom" instead of "Thomas" or whatever their full | official name is - which is even more important for drivers | with very uncommon names who want to go by something more | familiar/pronounceable. There's probably a decent safety | argument for not requiring drivers to have their full real | names be accessible to the user, especially in cases where a | driver has an uncommon (i.e. easy to doxx) name. | true_religion wrote: | I hear the argument but taxi drivers were always required | to show their real name, so the same should apply to Lyft | drivers. | | The privacy of the driver is outweighed by the need for the | public to feel they will safely be taken to their | destination in an enclosed vehicle totally controlled by | another party. | zulln wrote: | > I hear the argument but taxi drivers were always | required to show their real name, so the same should | apply to Lyft drivers. | | You can definitely argue that they should show their real | name, but it is not a good argument that because taxi | requires it, lyft should as well. | danso wrote: | I'm not sure what the official rule is for NYC's taxis | when it comes to the name display; fwiw you can see the | official list of medallion license numbers and associated | names here: | | https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Transportation/Medallion- | Drive... | | In any case, rules are different for different | jurisdictions and entities. If NYC TLC did have that | requirement, then it's possible that real name display is | mandatory for Lyft drivers operating in NYC, given that | TLC has some oversight over services like Lyft. However, | TLC also has some say over livery cabs. It's been awhile | since I've been in a livery cab, but I think they do | operate under different requirements in terms of what's | required for display. | matthewarkin wrote: | None of the major card networks except for American Express | validate cardholder name. The Address Verification Service | (AVS) also only validates numeric values (so if your address | is 123 Main Street, 123 Maple Ave will return a matching | response) | rolltiide wrote: | Was always wondering about that, only occasionally | misspelling a letter here or there to see if a transaction | would get approved. Can anyone corroborate? | lostlogin wrote: | The crazy shit that happens when an address is entirely | correct would make me hesitate before adding errors | intentionally. | user5994461 wrote: | Having worked around payments, I can guarantee you that | card networks do check the Card Holder name. Better yet, | they can match against first name, last name and middle | name to adjust the risk rating of individual transactions. | | Albeit, this is rarely used to block payments, because if | they stopped payments when customers didn't put their | middle name the exact way it's written on their card, | nobody would be able to pay online. | userbinator wrote: | _positives (anyone named "Fuck", ostensibly)._ | | This guy would disagree: | | http://mw.eco.br/ig/prof/ReinhardtAdolfoFuck.htm | | Along the same lines, | | https://www.nie.edu.sg/profile/chew-shit-fun | danso wrote: | Yeah, no name filter is going to be perfect for all edge | cases. But presumably, it's a lot cheaper to have the Lyft | support team handle email tickets from the relatively few | Professor Fucks, than to have them also deal with every | Cummings and Dick. | xxxtentachyon wrote: | Or just not filter names on an app like Lyft. You can't | even see other users' names. Who is potentially being | harmed by even a malicious Professor Fuck? | zulln wrote: | Drivers? Cannot imagine it being a big problem people | having really offensive names though, after all you are | actually meeting the driver irl and expect them to.. | well, drive you. | tmpz22 wrote: | Its funny to me how they try to apply christian values like | avoiding vaguely sexual sounding words while also making | significant amounts of money off late night debauchery, picking | people up from clubs at 3am. | copperx wrote: | Polite language is secular. Where do you get this religious | connotation from? | AdrianB1 wrote: | Forbidding a name like Cummings because it is not "polite" | is neither secular or logical. Also in non-Catholic | Christian countries sex and nudity are not a big deal | (example: Germany), so you are partially right: not a | Christian connotation, just particular forms of it. | chrisseaton wrote: | > while also making significant amounts of money off late | night debauchery, picking people up from clubs at 3am | | I'm not Christian but I don't think most Christians consider | a night out a club to be debauchery. | itronitron wrote: | that's sort of the point | [deleted] | vxxzy wrote: | How does this directly relate to "Christian" values? Could | "Islamic" values be applied? Afterall, the Prophet Mohammed | made his opposition to crude language clear in the Hadith. | | Follow up: Also appears there are some misgiving regarding | crude language within the Hindu religion as well. [0] | | [0]: https://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item. | php?... | qwerty456127 wrote: | Ok, let's call that puritan values of abrahamic religions. | rhizome wrote: | And I bet someone named Shooter[1] has no problems | signing up. | | 1. https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/extreme-boys-names | klipt wrote: | Ironically a lot of "puritan" values are now considered | "social justice" values. | | See eg "shirtgate" where an astronomer was castigated by | feminists for wearing a shirt with naked figures, on the | basis that it was offensive to women. Ironically, the | shirt had been given to him by a feminist woman friend | who thought it was liberating. | qwerty456127 wrote: | Bullshit culture as it is. | klipt wrote: | Islam is almost a branch off Christianity considering | Muhammad knew many Christians and was likely inspired by | them. Muslims also view Jesus as a holy person. | [deleted] | FlowNote wrote: | Nope, this is pure dishonesty manifest. | | Islam throws gays off of buildings and beheads women. | Christian city made you sad one time because your Dad | made you go to Church. | | Your hopes to prevent analysis of moral arbitrage is | nothing more than cheerleader cherry-picking. | jorblumesea wrote: | > Which you could easily manually eyeball to make sure there | weren't obvious false positives? | | Implying devs test their code thoroughly. lol. After working at | numerous companies (some with high bars of entry) I've noticed | many devs push changes without testing properly. Or, if they | test, they rarely consider edge cases or implications of what | they're doing and only test the obvious base cases. | clSTophEjUdRanu wrote: | I had a friend named Hung Wang who was pissed Microsoft | wouldn't let him make that his gamertag. | | "I'm so sorry my name is offensive!" | somebodythere wrote: | I have a friend named Aryan who was not allowed to sign up | for a Microsoft account with that name. Support even refused | to make the exception when asked, suggesting that he sign up | with the name "Ryan" instead. | | To this day, emails from that account have "Ryan <lastname>" | in the header. | hysan wrote: | And my name was filtered by Spectrum, who at the time was the | only ISP in my area. Made chat support incredibly difficult | whenever I had to type in my name. Explaining why I wrote it with | spaces with an explanation to remove which spaces was quite the | test in reading comprehension apparently. Especially funny was | when the customer support tried to type it back to confirm only | to see nothing! Confused them even though I just explained why I | was doing it! | | I hope to one day be able to see the feature spec and QA that led | to these types of hiccups. | rdiddly wrote: | Tell me again why anybody cares? Is it because the Church is so | central to our lives? We're masters of rationality and | technology, who believe in a retributive super-ape in the sky? | | Is it because we're medieval scribes and we really want to use | the Latin _faeces_ to indicate our scholarly intentions, instead | of the Anglo-Saxon _shit_ that everyone around us uses? | | There is no reason I can think of that comports with a | technological or innovative worldview. | | Including cybersecurity. ("Shit" is just an identifier or a | guessable string with 13 bits of "chaos" completely equivalent to | "Dave" or "Phil.") | | Edit: Well I see small-minded superstitious dunderheads have | shown up to downvote me, so FUCK CUNT SHIT ASS | FlowNote wrote: | And not a Dang in sight. Imagine that. | falcor84 wrote: | Words have meanings. These particular words have offensive | meanings, in the sense of them being used to intentionally | offend others. There's no word I'm aware of that is only ever | used to offend and they all have (and generally have stated | with) inoffensive meanings. | | In pretty much every community, we seek to reduce the friction | between members, and as a part of that, different communities | would often choose a point on that chance-to-offend spectrum | and discourage use of anything more (potentially) offensive | than that point. Despite myself generally preferring more open | (and more offensive communities), I find it very rational for | others to set the bar at other points. | techslave wrote: | These are names. not words. | rdiddly wrote: | Sure, agreed, and Lyft's apparent priorities are a big part | of why I'm not in a relationship with them or part of their | "community" (read: "customer base." _Community_ is a lie and | therefore offensive, despite being totally a "clean" word... | great and unexpected example... I digress). | | Edit: sorry, digressed so far that I forgot to finish. By | "priorities" I mean, Lyft, pull your people off of pointless | projects like messing with people's identities, and put them | on QA of basic functionality like accepting a credit card | payment via your website. Last and only time I tried it, it | failed utterly. Now I don't know how much anti-sales other | people need to de-persuade them before they'll not-buy, but | in my case that was enough. The person for whom I was trying | to buy a gift card, got something nicer with a lifecycle that | doesn't burn such an obscene/offensive quantity of fossil | fuels. | allovernow wrote: | FromSoft has a similar problem with totally inane censorship of | names in online play in the Dark Souls series. E.G. you would | think they'd whitelist the word "knight" in a game about knights, | but it's always censored to k __*ht. There 's some other wacky | stuff going on but in this case I don't quite blame them because | the devs probably don't speak English natively or at all, and you | can tell they had a tight budget/schedule. | donmcronald wrote: | Clbuttic | dathinab wrote: | It's always funny (not) when companies don't slice realize that | there is a certain overlap between "bad" words and last names | (many because of a shift over time wrt. What words are bad, and | differences between languages and dialects). | jklein11 wrote: | Maybe the Danes are on to something here. | | https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-strict-name-laws-of-... | jFriedensreich wrote: | The US has a serious problem with saying normal things like fuck, | cunt and shit. I find it extremely offensive to hear beeps in | series and even the verge author self censors his article. | Fucking stop being hypocrites. | [deleted] | [deleted] | teh_klev wrote: | Twitter seems to filter through the prism of US standards of | speech. Woe betide you if you're Scottish and use the word | cunt. In Scotland there's quite a lot of nuance in the usage of | cunt. In fact I go so far as to say that the use of "profane" | language is a bit of an art form in Scotland, but sadly not | appreciated by our Facebook and Twitter overlords. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdCmFg4xIPI | nkrisc wrote: | You're offended by the beeps? Well now you now how the people | offended by those words feel. | | Edit: People seem to think I'm offended by those words. I'm | not. | teh_klev wrote: | They're just words. You can always turn the TV off. | | See also: | | https://youtu.be/78OevDyH7-Y?t=187 | nkrisc wrote: | I'm not offended by words. I was just talking about other | people. | [deleted] | TigeriusKirk wrote: | What happens with towns like Cumming, GA? | m0zg wrote: | There are a lot of Dicks around, if you pardon the pun. On a more | salient note, why the fuck would Lyft try to censor language in | the first place? Is there a point after which you're _too_ woke | for your own good? It's OK to have an "offensive" name. | ceejayoz wrote: | The good old Scunthorpe problem. | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem | llarsson wrote: | How do they not realize what an obvious shitstorm this will | cause? | | And who is bothered by this, really? | | I find it hard to imagine that it's the drivers calling | themselves Dick Cummings out of immaturity. So what does it | really matter what the customers call themselves? | jamestimmins wrote: | From my experience building filters, this is one of the most | frustrating tasks in software development, because getting it | right is thankless and highly contextual, and if you get it | wrong, the results are obvious. | | Edit: Actually, it's worse bc if you get it wrong you open up | your employer to getting called out for cultural insensitivity. | _wldu wrote: | You can never get this 'right' and trying to is a waste of | time and money. Words are just words. Trying to police what | words a person has in their name, username, email, etc. is | wrong and has unintended consequences. What's inappropriate | to these 'decision makers' is actually the given names of | some of their users. | | You should never try to define 'appropriate language' and | then impose your definition of that on to the world. | Especially if you want to do business. | cmdshiftf4 wrote: | >I find it hard to imagine that it's the drivers calling | themselves Dick Cummings out of immaturity. So what does it | really matter what the customers call themselves? | | That was my thought too. It's one thing if you're using | obscenity in an anonymous online alias, as a great many | Redditors seem to love doing, but I'm struggling to believe | that it's something people do in signing up for real-life ride- | sharing apps, either as a driver or rider. | | Obviously there must be some amount of people doing it, | otherwise Lyft wouldn't bother with this at all, but it's just | so... _unexpected_. | jasonjei wrote: | My last name "Hung" was blocked by Apple's Genius Bar at one | point when they displayed the names queue on the digital board. | They don't like certain methods of Chinese romanization | (particularly the one used in Taiwan). | jamestimmins wrote: | Patio11 has a good post about this topic from 10 years ago. | https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-... | | As a programmer, it's difficult how little of the world follows | consistent "rules" that you need to build straightforward | conditional logic. | | Really, the only surprising thing is that Lyft didn't cross this | bridge years ago. | minimaxir wrote: | It seems like tech companies have been doing DIY profanity | filters. Apple has a profanity filter for engraving text onto a | device in the online store | (https://twitter.com/minimaxir/status/1213188371452841984 ); | intended to be your name, so terms like "Dick" have to not be | filtered. | | I learnt that Apple has a validation endpoint. Since the | engraving service was recently updated, I took a profanity | wordlist and checked it against the endpoint just for fun. The | results are...counterintuitive: https://pastebin.com/mzpECiQw | (NSFW language, obviously) | rubyn00bie wrote: | A bit of a tangent but you reminded me-- and maybe, I'm totally | full of shit or like my memory is wrong, but the iPhone | predicting profanity was my favorite feature. For YEARS it | would never write "duck" instead of "fuck," and generally was | great, but then (and this is the like maybe I'm totally wrong | part) after Jobs passed away that stopped completely... and now | I get this bullshit I have to fucking correct all the time (I | have had to set up shortcuts to prevent it from fixing my | profanity). | | I can't imagine Jobs putting up with trying to swear at someone | over text and repeatedly getting "ducking." | unlinked_dll wrote: | iOS autocorrect has always been terrible, it's not exclusive | to profanity. Both in terms of its performance and | experience. Its incredibly frustrating to use when it | autocorrects words 3-4 words later, and navigating text | fields has become significantly more difficult on recent | versions of iOS. | | Android is the superior experience in almost every UX | category imo, and text handling is the best example of that. | | sent from my iPhone. | bradleyankrom wrote: | For the life of me I cannot get "may" to stop | autocorrecting to "May" | rubyn00bie wrote: | Yeah, the whole "replace a block of text" auto-correct can | be a fucking nightmare, but I personaly haven't had bad | performance. Maybe I'm just not remembering it... or I'm | not thinking of all the uses cases. | | On Android the latency of the screen has always bothered me | when typing so much I can't notice anything else, but I | haven't had a high-end Android device in years where that | could be remedied (I was very tempted by the OnePlus 7 but | didn't want to fork over the cash just to try). | ben_w wrote: | The profanity filter in the Apple App Store was [0] amusingly | wrong, but fortunately also a soft filter rather than a hard | filter. | | What happened was, the German localisation of the app | description included the word "Knopf". Knopf is not a rude | word, according to any German I've discussed this with -- it is | one translation of "knob" in the sense of "button", but Apple's | naughty word detector clearly thought it was "knob" in the | sense of the euphemism for a body part. | | It didn't stop the app passing review, but the automatic | warning was still a regular part of updates for that particular | app. | | [0] Back in 2012 | reaperducer wrote: | I wonder if there are any Knopf titles in the Apple Books | app. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_A._Knopf | userbinator wrote: | I've seen "schwanz" (tail) more commonly used as the | euphemism for the body part. | dathinab wrote: | Honestly if filter try to filter out euphemisms all is lost | because: | | 1. People who use them for that just come up with new ones | all the time | | 2. People still use the word in the regular sense, like would | I now have to come up with a euphemisms to describe a door | knob ?! | | 3. How I wore is my decision. As long as I don't hurry anyone | intentionally or knowingly no person and even less company | had the (moralic) right to constraint me. (Through wrt. | Minirs, Y least younger ones, their parents opinion matters, | too.) | danso wrote: | The Apple endpoint, inconsistent as it was, was a little more | permissive than I expected. At least compared to something like | the Sony Playstation ID filter; for example, 'hitler' is fine | for Apple, whereas Sony seems to block out any ID containing | the literal string of 'hitle', e.g. `hitle123987` [0]. | Meanwhile, Apple manages to block some of the more esoteric | sexual profanity that Sony's filter can miss, e.g. `bunghole`. | | [0] curl -X POST | https://accounts.api.playstation.com/api/v1/accounts/onlineI... | -H "Content-Type: application/json" -d | '{"onlineId":"hitle123987","reserveIfAvailable":true}' | zeta0134 wrote: | I'm still trying to work out what Sony's filter doesn't like | about my username (zeta0134) which I've had for ages. The | first bit is just the letter "z" in Spanish; there's no | deeper meaning. To my knowledge it's not considered offensive | in Spanish, but Sony would _not_ let me have it no matter how | many variations I tried. Maybe there 's some political thing | I'm not aware of? | | Anyway, I switched languages and I'm "zed0134" on their | network. The whole thing struck me as a bit odd. | somehnguy wrote: | Maybe something related to | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Zetas | | ? Seems like a poor reason but most profanity filters are | inconsistent as hell anyway so its possible. | Gibbon1 wrote: | > what Sony's filter doesn't like about my username | (zeta0134) | | I can explain that one to you. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Zetas | danso wrote: | That's very interesting. I just called their endpoint: | curl -d '{"onlineId":"zeta0134","reserveIfAvailable":true}' | \ -X POST https://accounts.api.playstation.com/api | /v1/accounts/onlineIds \ -H "Content-Type: | application/json" | | And got a response indicating that the name was both valid | (i.e. not "improper") and available. Maybe at one | particular time the word was flagged, but I can't imagine | why. | | edit: As other repliers have said, I _did_ think that it | could have something to do with Los Zetas, and maybe that | was the case in the past. However, as of now, `zeta0134`, | `zetas0134`, and `loszetas0134` are all valid and available | names, according to the endpoint. | | Interestingly, `pabloescobar0134` _is_ considered improper. | However, `elchapo0134` is _not_ - which supports the | argument that Sony 's blacklist is (obviously) manually | curated and perhaps subject to change. Maybe enough people | who wanted "Zeta" complained for Sony to realize it was a | word that had many more uses than in Los Zetas | okasaki wrote: | Possibly because of the Mexican drug cartel? | [deleted] | dspig wrote: | Los Zetas? | Havoc wrote: | Bit of a dick move | cs702 wrote: | I hereby propose the term "AS" for _Artificial Stupidity_ : The | use of software to automate obviously stupid behavior. | | Sample usage: "AS is sometimes an unintended result obtained when | insanely smart people work with vast resources on very complex | problems for long periods of time." | soulofmischief wrote: | I got randomly "banned" from nexus mods two months ago because | they forced a password change, which wouldn't proceed because it | said my name wasn't allowed. Apparently having "fucker" in your | name is against the community guidelines for a website which lets | you download adult content such as hyperviolent and hypersexual | game mods. I've also had this account for almost a decade. I | ended up getting in quite a spat with customer support until they | stopped responding. | | I expect I will be receiving a similar notification from Lyft | soon as the email address I am registered with definitely has a | name which would incorrectly trigger this algorithm. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2020-01-11 23:00 UTC)