[HN Gopher] Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property
___________________________________________________________________
Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property
Author : hhs
Score : 155 points
Date : 2020-01-15 16:57 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| I remember forgetting an umbrella in a restaurant in Tokyo, and
| being chased down in the street by someone returning it. It was
| pretty amazing.
| virtuous_signal wrote:
| This smells like a lot of post-hoc rationalization. Collectivism?
| What about China, which did terribly on this kind of test.
| Shintoism? Only 3-4% of the population follows that. See
| https://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-people-are-honest-los...
| where the graphic in the middle of the page compares countries.
| It appears that Scandinavian countries fare best followed by
| Eastern European. I would be happy to hear what people at HN
| think are the real reasons.
|
| For what it's worth, as a scatterbrained person, I think it would
| be great living in a country with so much trust that I could
| expect my lost things not to be stolen.
| simmanian wrote:
| I was born in one of the "safe" East Asian countries and I
| think it all comes down to their sense of ownership in the
| community. Koreans and Japanese have this deeply ingrained idea
| that the entire history of their country has been built and run
| by their "people" and they will have a hivemind-allergic
| reaction to anything they see as undesirable. There's very
| little crime in public in these countries because people equate
| a crime that happens in some back alley of a major city to a
| crime that happens in your cousin's backyard. It's simply
| abhorrent.
|
| Needless to say, this culture does have its drawbacks, but I
| think the key takeaway is to increase people's sense of
| ownership in our communities.
| jdtang13 wrote:
| I completely agree. Foreign culture analyses like this are
| always tinged with bias and an incurable desire to find little
| small-picture justifications. I'm sick and tired of seeing
| every random quirk of Japanese people being explained as
| "Shinto this, Buddhism that"; it's such an oversimplification.
| The interior lives of human beings are built upon perhaps
| 1,000,000 variables, not just 3 variables.
|
| The writing is in English, published by someone who spent an
| entire life growing up in the West. And, as you mentioned, this
| "returning item phenomenon" seems not to be the case in modern
| China, even in the cities.
|
| If you want to even begin to describe Eastern culture in
| English, maybe take a look at how hard it was, and still is, to
| articulate the internal world of the Russians:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_soul
| dtwest wrote:
| I interpreted this particular article's main point as being:
|
| Don't assume Japanese people are more honest than people in
| other countries, there are many social and cultural factors
| at play that influence behavior.
|
| Generalizing a group of people is almost always inaccurate,
| and often frustrating to read, but I don't think this article
| is an egregious example of that. This is a fluff piece to get
| people interested in the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo, don't
| mistake it for serious cultural analysis.
| nwienert wrote:
| Homogenous, nationalistic, small country with high IQ, good
| education system, high GDP, low levels of immigration, and a
| culture that emphasizes community.
|
| Oh, and lower levels of inequality, relatively, and a more
| aligned politics/media system that doesn't foment distrust.
| jessriedel wrote:
| I mostly agree, but note that Japan has 126M people, so it's
| quite large.
| JakeTheAndroid wrote:
| Yeah, but when you compare 126m to 1.3b I feel like you'd
| expect to see drift between the results. That's 10x the
| amount of people. If only 1 in every 10 people in each
| country is willing to break the social norms and ignores
| social pressures, then China will have 10x the amount of
| these infractions compared to Japan.
|
| But yes, Japan is not a small country even if it is a
| relatively small landmass.
| omegaworks wrote:
| Immigration has been steadily increasing in Japan.[1] That
| homogeneity presupposes trust is a right-wing stereotype used
| to devalue immigrants in a society and justify harsh
| enforcement. You can find people of every ethnicity in Tokyo,
| including many half and full Brazilian people that you could
| mistake for latinos here in the US[2].
|
| 1. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/03/11/national/japa
| n-...
|
| 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilians_in_Japan#Migratio
| n_...
| nwienert wrote:
| Go to Japan. Immigration is absolutely nothing like
| European or American countries.
| swebs wrote:
| >Ethnic groups: Japanese 98.1%, Chinese 0.5%, Korean 0.4%,
| other 1% (includes Filipino, Vietnamese, and Brazilian)
|
| https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
| factbook/...
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| It's true that Japan has a lot more ethnic homogenity
| than most countries, but this is is a misleading
| statistic. The Japanese census considers all people with
| Japanese citizenship to be simply "Japanese" regardless
| of their race.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > That homogeneity presupposes trust is a right-wing
| stereotype used to devalue immigrants in a society and
| justify harsh enforcement.
|
| The fact it's a right wing idea doesn't mean it's wrong. A
| nation's laws is written by its people. The fact is
| different peoples have different cultures and follow
| different sets of rules. The ideal immigrant is the one who
| naturalizes and fully integrates into the existing society.
| What usually happens is they stick together in foreigner
| groups for mutual support. They maintain their culture and
| continue living by the same rules they are used to.
|
| It is extremely demoralizing to see people not only break
| the rules we follow but come out ahead for doing so while
| escaping any retribution. It's even worse when foreigners
| do it because it simply isn't part of their culture. If a
| group of people doesn't litter the streets and foreigners
| who think nothing of it suddenly arrive, they will be
| looked down upon.
|
| > You can find people of every ethnicity in Tokyo,
| including many half and full Brazilian people that you
| could mistake for latinos here in the US
|
| A relative minority. Many more japanese live in Brazil than
| the other way around.
| claudeganon wrote:
| > a more aligned politics/media system that doesn't foment
| distrust.
|
| Japan is essentially a right-wing, one-party "democracy" put
| in place by US intelligence services, postwar. The current
| prime minister is literally the grandson of a CIA-backed war
| criminal, who was famously known as the "Devil of the Showa
| Period":
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-
| millions-...
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi
|
| Freedom of the press is absolutely abysmal in Japan and has
| been further on the downslide since Abe came to power:
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/japan-
| accused-...
|
| I speak Japanese, have spent a lot of time in the country,
| and have a great admiration for its people, but about the
| last thing I'd express _any_ admiration for are its politics
| and media. And speaking anecdotally, very few people there
| seem to put much trust in them either.
| nwienert wrote:
| I didn't express admiration, I just pointed out the reasons
| the people have such high trust and cooperation.
| factsaresacred wrote:
| Shame and the homogeneous makeup of the population likely play
| large roles.
|
| Comparing China to Japan won't do any good as the cultural
| revolution decimated its social capital.
| virtuous_signal wrote:
| I don't know about that last part. Most Eastern European
| countries were part of the USSR and underwent massive
| revolutions. I've even seen them described as low-trust
| societies, but they seem to do well.
| ido wrote:
| What do you mean when you say eastern european countries
| "do well" (supposedly compared to China)?
|
| Some (like the Baltics) are doing great, but I don't think
| I'd rather live in Moldova, the Ukraine or Albania rather
| than China.
| virtuous_signal wrote:
| "Well" was the wrong word (unless one is thinking of the
| experiment as a test). I simply meant the percentage of
| lost wallets returned. In the study from Science that the
| LA Times article covers, this group of countries as a
| block did better than all countries from South America or
| Asia, for instance.
| factsaresacred wrote:
| The Cultural Revolution was unlike the political
| revolutions of Eastern Europe. It was a bloody orgy of
| violence and vandalism that attempted to tear traditional
| Chinese culture out from the roots, and in the process
| destroyed China's social fabric and trust, perhaps
| irreparably (or at least until the Party collapses and the
| country can confront its past - something the Eastern
| European nations have been allowed to do).
|
| An excerpt from the book 'Out of Mao's Shadow':
|
| > _Families were torn apart as wives divorced husbands who
| had been accused of political crimes, children condemned
| parents, and siblings turned against one another. When the
| Cultural Revolution finally ended, it was easier for many
| people just to move on than talk about it..._
|
| > _...Such violence has not been expunged from the
| country's collective memory so much as repressed, and
| repressed memories have a way of surfacing unexpectedly.
| There have always been voices in China calling on the
| nation to confront the barbarity of the Cultural
| Revolution. Only with an honest accounting and thoughtful
| examination of the era, they argue, can the country come to
| terms with the legacy of mistrust and moral decay that
| haunts it today._
| vkou wrote:
| The cultural revolution was not the cause of this.
| Chinese history did not start in 1966. 1966 was preceded
| by six decades of brutal military occupation, a complete
| breakdown of law and order, and civil war.
|
| I'm not sure you can point at any country that had gone
| through such a violent, unstable, and lengthy period of
| fragmentation and bloodshed, and came out on the other
| end as a cohesive, high-trust society.
| shadofx wrote:
| Taiwan and South Korea were both bloody, autocratic
| military regimes. Many nations have walked the bridge to
| hell and back, but the cultural revolution meant that
| China burned the bridge after crossing it.
| vkou wrote:
| One of your examples further proves my point - nobody can
| categorize Taiwan as a high-cohesion, high-trust society,
| despite not having a 1966 moment.
|
| The other's not a very close parallel.
|
| Korea was under Japanese occupation in that same time
| period, which was no picnic, but it at least had a
| functional, centralized government, and at least, was not
| an active warzone through most of it. (It is more similar
| to post-war Eastern Europe in that regard.)
|
| It also did not go through a multi-decade-long civil war.
| verisimilidude wrote:
| The abundance of "police boxes" in Japan, small satellite police
| stations, probably helps a lot.
|
| While living in Japan, I found a lost wallet on the street, in
| the gutter. That wallet was sitting just down the street from the
| police. Line-of-sight. Picking up the wallet and taking it to the
| station was immediately obvious and convenient.
| NotASithLord wrote:
| My phone slipped out of my pocket on the subway on my last night
| in Tokyo. Realized 20 minutes later, talked to some employees and
| described what kind of phone it was (a cheap Samsung, really not
| a big deal), gone as can be. Flew back home to Miami.
|
| Received my phone back in the mail a month later. A friend of
| mine there kept checking with the employees and it eventually
| showed up in lost and found. Refused to allow me to pay for the
| international shipping.
| BlameKaneda wrote:
| "Tamura describes the concept of 'hito no me'; the 'societal
| eye'. Even without a police presence, no theft will occur while
| there is hito no me. But left in a place where there is no one
| watching, thefts do occur."
|
| "Likewise, in Shintoism everything, from rocks to trees,
| possesses a spirit. While organised Shintoism is a minority
| practice in Japan, omniscient objects permeate the culture....if
| you are always being watched and your natural disposition is to
| think of others first, it is natural that you would be bothered
| to hand in the lost item."
|
| The concept of "standing out" is a bit foreign in collectivist
| cultures like Japan, and getting blamed/shunned/etc for stealing
| would be mentally taxing.
| LeoTinnitus wrote:
| That is how I analyzed it for the most part since there was
| such a wide variance between countries. Eastern Europe really
| stood out to me and I believe that may have to do with a
| generation of people that were used to the surveillance state
| of post-communist society.
|
| In the US, the social impact generally means little, however
| the economic and time one matters a lot (via jail or fines).
| Post-communist states might be still conditioned to live in a
| culture where people are used to corrupt police that ENSURING
| you have nothing damning is far better than taking a risk and
| dealing with getting out of that.
| ookblah wrote:
| I found this similar mentality in Korea where you can leave your
| laptop, phone, etc. at a cafe completely exposed on a table while
| you go to the restroom or even out to lunch. When you come back
| your stuff will still be there.
|
| As I live in NYC, this completely blew my mind and I still felt
| that anxiety and awkwardness just leaving my stuff to go use the
| restroom. Near guaranteed theft in NYC lol.
|
| ---
|
| And to add another story. A friend and I were traveling in Japan
| a few years ago. My friend had the lucky privilege of forgetting
| his backpack (with laptop, passport, all the not-fun-stuff to
| lose items) not once, but twice during the trip.
|
| The first time, he forgot it on the train ride to Osaka (left it
| on the rack above the seats). The bag went all the way to the end
| of the line. 4 hour round trip to get it back, but we were super
| surprised.
|
| Second time was the day we were to fly back. He left it on the
| train platform bench (!!!) for that non-stop ride to Narita. That
| feeling of dread when we started moving and he realized he had to
| wait at least an hour before he could contact anybody about it.
|
| Long story short, he took the 1 hour train back and it was still
| sitting there. Missed the flight, but got everything back safely.
| Amazing.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| I lost my phone on the NYC subway. It was returned to a station
| and I picked it up a week later.
| jessriedel wrote:
| I worked in NYC coffee shops on a daily basis for 2 years (and
| Toronto and SF for more years). Whenever I went to the
| bathroom, I just asked a random person nearby if they would
| make sure no one walked off with my stuff. I never had anything
| stolen, and the people I ask don't seem bothered in the
| slightest. It's a very small burden, and I think there's
| something pleasant about having someone put their trust in you.
| peterwwillis wrote:
| If you just want to talk to someone, I get it, but otherwise
| there's no point. Nobody's going to fight a thief to
| safeguard a stranger's stuff (and shouldn't because they
| could be sued by the thief). And it's a crime of opportunity,
| thiefs are not sitting in cafes waiting for a laptop user to
| go to the bathroom; high risk, low reward.
| mcast wrote:
| This is the standard I've encountered at coffee shops and
| school libraries, no one seems to mind. However, it would be
| easy to build an app that alarms when the battery becomes
| disconnected (i.e. someone walks away with your stuff).
| reroute1 wrote:
| > It would be easy to build an app that alarms when the
| battery becomes disconnected (i.e. someone walks away with
| your stuff).
|
| Wait what? How does this work?
| JakeTheAndroid wrote:
| on OSX or Linux you could grep the logs every few minutes
| or seconds or whatever and see the battery status that
| includes AC power. From there you could have it alert you
| via whatever method you want.
|
| On OSX:
|
| pmset -g rawlog
|
| Output:
|
| $ pmset -g rawlog pmset is in RAW logging mode now. Hit
| ctrl-c to exit. * Battery matched at registry = XXXX
| 01/15/20 XX:XX:XX No AC; Not Charging; 75%; Cap=5490:
| FCC=XXXX; Design=XXXX; Time=X:XX; -752mA; Cycles=14/1000;
| Location=XX; Polled boot=01/15/20 XX:XX:XX; Full=01/15/20
| XX:XX:XX; User visible=01/15/20 XX:XX:XX
|
| I expect there are more elegant solutions, but this would
| theoretically work, as I used to use this among other
| things to track my daily laptop usage to see how on task
| I was any given day. If the lid is closed but unplugged
| then I was probably going to/in a meeting, if the lid is
| closed and charging then I was likely afk, not working.
| Worked pretty well to give me a ballpark of my
| productivity.
| keiferski wrote:
| This is already a thing: https://beepify.com
| jessriedel wrote:
| $19.99...
| davemp wrote:
| If laptops/phones have power events that you could hook
| into for when charger is unplugged. Just start blaring
| the speakers when you detect such an event without the
| alarm being disarmed first.
| thbr99 wrote:
| Britain is bad at returning stolen property. Eg Kohinoor
| vearwhershuh wrote:
| _" What's in it for the finder to be honest enough to hand in the
| item?"_
|
| By asking this question, you deny yourself access to its answer.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Why? That's the kind of question that makes up the entire field
| of game theory.
|
| In every situation, the most natural strategy is to maximize
| personal gains. That's how natural selection works. But when
| people don't act like that, it means there must be some
| opposing force, normally one that benefits society. There is a
| lot to learn here, in fields as diverse as biology, economics,
| computing, and of course, games.
| SkyBelow wrote:
| >Why? That's the kind of question that makes up the entire
| field of game theory.
|
| I think it depends upon the person who is asking. The average
| person asking it comes from a different perspective than
| someone who studies game theory and human nature asking the
| question.
| vearwhershuh wrote:
| Exactly.
| reroute1 wrote:
| Exactly what?
|
| > By asking this question, you deny yourself access to its
| answer.
|
| ... No it doesn't?
| jshevek wrote:
| I don't know what it means to say "that's how natural
| selection works" in this context. At times, evolutionary
| pressure favors cooperation and altruism.
| simmanian wrote:
| As Hobbes writes in The Leviathan, Western civilization views
| the world as a "war of all men against all other men."
| Basically, the world is made up of individuals, and everyone
| is on their own, and they must fight with others in a zero-
| sum game to attain safety and happiness. If you subscribe to
| this view, it becomes harder for people to see that it's
| actually in your interest to act in good faith.
|
| That is how I understood GP's comment.
| someone7x wrote:
| > In every situation, the most natural strategy is to
| maximize personal gains.
|
| The iterated prisoner's dilemma begs to differ.
|
| There are many many situations where cooperation is both
| natural and optimal.
| samatman wrote:
| The iterated prisoner's dilemma does no such thing, as it's
| scored by maximizing personal gains.
|
| It does point to the advantages of not defecting on players
| who cooperate.
| kube-system wrote:
| > optimal
|
| i.e., there is something in it for them. It doesn't have to
| be a tangible thing, it could be a simple as self-
| satisfaction.
| ghostbrainalpha wrote:
| When you take a basic moral truth, but then phrase it so that
| it will not immediately be apparent what you are saying....
|
| You create the appearance of profound wisdom. And often book
| deals.
| munificent wrote:
| Studies have shown people recall information better if they
| had to put some effort into acquiring it. Sometimes a
| profound wisdom lodges better if the "ah-ha" moment occurs in
| the reader's mind and not on the page.
| tyfon wrote:
| It's not quite at the level of Japan, but Aftenposten, which is a
| newspaper in Norway, conducted a test [1] (translation [2]) in
| Oslo where they "lost" 20 wallets. 15 eventually returned.
|
| Personally I've lost my wallet twice and it has been returned
| both times.
|
| It is nice to be able to trust your fellow citisens somewhat :)
|
| [1] https://www.aftenposten.no/okonomi/i/zlOb/slik-gikk-det-
| da-a...
|
| [2]
| https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...
| retrac wrote:
| The Toronto Star tried the same thing in Toronto. 15 of 20 were
| returned. (One minus the cash.)
|
| https://www.thestar.com/life/2009/04/25/we_left_20_wallets_a...
| mmhsieh wrote:
| i lost a phone in shinjuku station and located with the help of
| the station employees within 30 minutes. somehow they did this
| location act in the busiest subway junction in the world, with
| just a few phone calls.
| grillvogel wrote:
| its funny that this article is part of a japan 2020 olympics
| feature, when there will surely be an increase in crime and bad
| behavior due to all the 2020 visitors.
| kibwen wrote:
| Little-known tip: in the US, if you happen to find a lost wallet
| that contains an ID, you can just drop it in the nearest postbox
| and the USPS has the duty to attempt to return it to its rightful
| owner. Here's the relevant page of the postal code:
| https://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/507.htm
| Hydraulix989 wrote:
| Given what I've seen and also have personally experienced with
| postal employees, I wouldn't place much trust in it, for
| example:
|
| "USPS loses about $1800 of packages from
| store.rossmanngroup.com :("
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4CCuMg6jXI
| shujito wrote:
| discipline, education and culture
| rs999gti wrote:
| > discipline and culture
|
| Monoculture
| makapuf wrote:
| Do you say that with a negative or positive tone ? It's hard
| to tell from your answer. And if so, why ?
| jshevek wrote:
| I took it as an observation or speculation of cause and
| effect. There is no judgement (positive or negative) needed
| for this.
| jrsdav wrote:
| I experienced this while visiting Japan.
|
| While doing a transfer on the Shinkansen in Hiroshima, I left my
| camera bag at a noodle kiosk on the platform (around $3k worth of
| equipment). Didn't realize it until 2 hours after getting on the
| next train.
|
| When we arrived at our destination, I told my friend we were
| meeting (a Japanese native) what happened, and she reassured me
| that it would be right where I left it (said something about
| there being a "taboo" with the Japanese and touching other
| people's private property).
|
| So we walked over to the JR attendant and explained what
| happened, and in no time at all she had the other station
| attendant on the line who confirmed they found my bag. Just as
| easy as that.
|
| Then I proceeded to lose my wallet and passport in a taxi, which
| we recovered just as easily!
|
| Japan is a great country to visit, if while abroad you displace
| the part of your brain that keeps track of things...
| jyounker wrote:
| On the other hand, the Japanese are inveterate umbrella
| thieves. So much so that you will find _locking_ umbrella racks
| in many buildings.
|
| The pressure has to go somewhere.
| Reedx wrote:
| The article hits on this, suggesting that they are viewed as
| communal property since they're so abundant, cheap and
| frequently forgotten. Umbrellas are also an on demand item,
| so can see how this could evolve as a sort of community
| solution to the rain problem.
| yboris wrote:
| I visited Japan and was caught in the rain with no
| umbrella. I hid next to an awning near a school. A person
| came out from inside and offered me to take an umbrella
| from the numerous ones that were left by the people inside.
|
| I suspect "communal property" is a better way to think of
| what happens with umbrellas than "umbrella thieves".
| ultrasaurus wrote:
| I was in Japan last week and I can confirm that I forgot
| every umbrella I used -- I hope you got one of mine.
| irrational wrote:
| What is the rain problem? I live in the Pacific Northwest
| where it rains for 9 months out of the year. Our solution
| is to not use umbrellas at all. Everyone has a waterproof
| rain jacket.
| tareqak wrote:
| Why umbrellas specifically? I read the article and I enjoyed
| it, but the question of why umbrellas are not treated the
| same in terms of being returned was mentioned but not
| answered. Near the end of the article, there is this sentence
|
| > "Communal property is virtually unheard of except for that
| many people seem to regard umbrellas as up for grabs if not
| properly secured."
| kstenerud wrote:
| Because when the rain comes down, it COMES DOWN HARD, and
| you NEED an umbrella NOW. I started doing the same after
| living there a few years.
|
| Same thing with stealing crappy bikes with flat tires from
| the nearest bike rack to get home when you're drunk as a
| skunk at 3 am.
| novok wrote:
| You can buy them everywhere for 300-1000 yen, those models
| are the ones that everyone uses so it isn't much of a
| sacrifice for everyone to buy another umbrella a few times
| a year.
| the_af wrote:
| Is this for fancy umbrellas or any umbrella? I once lost a
| cheap plastic umbrella while visiting a castle, which I left
| for a minute to take a photo and it was gone, and I always
| assumed another tourist took it by mistake.
| harikb wrote:
| Is it possible the social support structure, education, etc are
| creating a society where unfortunate people don't have to
| steal/pawn to make a living?
| livueta wrote:
| I'm a little skeptical. Many Japanese live in a pretty
| grinding form of underemployment poverty - "freeter" will get
| you lots of hits in Western media. Moreover, some truly
| deprived groups like the urban homeless are almost notorious
| for generally _not_ engaging in the sort of petty property
| crime we're talking about that's common in similar
| demographics in the West.
|
| Those make me lean towards cultural factors.
| TheTruth321 wrote:
| Shame.
| kstenerud wrote:
| No, it's a cultural thing. Home burglaries and thefts from
| cars and shops are fairly common, but you don't take
| unattended bags and such that are left in the open.
| Reedx wrote:
| We tend to underestimate the effect culture can have. It's
| also why the Japanese don't litter their cities, despite few
| garbage bins.
|
| https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-
| lit...
| baddox wrote:
| I wouldn't underestimate the effect of culture, I would
| just tend to assume that something about Japan has _caused_
| its culture, rather than culture itself being a primary
| cause of attitudes towards lost property. In other words, I
| wouldn 't consider "it's just their culture to respect lost
| property" a useful explanation.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Yeah, well. Maybe, maybe not. Quoted from a previous
| discussion:
|
| > I was cycling in Japan for about 2 weeks, just a few
| weeks ago. I was also impressed in most places by how clean
| it was, not only in the cities, but more generally speaking
| about everywhere.
|
| > At some point though, I was cycling along the coast of
| Mie then Wakayama prefectures, and although the scenery and
| roads were clean, I had a glance just behind the ramp walk,
| and realized that behind the trees, in the bush next to the
| road were hundreds of garbage bags, litter of all sort,
| really anything, just lying below. There was such a
| contrast from what my eyes were seeing until, I was
| shocked.
|
| > In another town several kilometres after (I forgot which
| place exactly, must have been while cycling up towards
| Wakayama city), I passed next to a big commercial area on
| my right. On my left there was a small patch of forest then
| the sea and again, that forest contained many many plastic
| bags, full but neatly tied up, every couple of meters or
| so, for several hundreds of meters.
|
| > I originally thought the first thrashes I saw along the
| road in the country side where "mistakes", like things
| flying off the window or pushed by the wind from another
| place (although there was a lot of garbage anyway). But
| when I saw these tied up plastic bags, they weren't there
| by chance, really people throw these bags away on the
| forest right here. That made me a bit sad, especially since
| it broke the original image I got.
|
| > (And I haven't spoke about the beaches and seafront all
| along that peninsula; I wouldn't walk bare foot there).
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21240083
| Nition wrote:
| When I was in Japan in 2009, every pedestrian in the
| cities waited patiently at each crossing until the light
| turned green, even if there were no cars around at all.
|
| However, when the streets were mostly empty, I saw one
| Japanese man come to an empty crossing, glance around,
| and cross on red.
|
| Can't generalize much off a single example, but it did
| make me think peer pressure is probably a factor.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| In America, the primary "road safety" I was taught as a
| kid was "look both ways before crossing the road." I
| think the Japanese priority is based more on obeying
| traffic lites, though this is just conjecture from media
| and my experience.
|
| This said, when people are around there are more likely
| to be sudden cars as well. It's easier to justify
| jaywalking at midnight than noon.
| ghaff wrote:
| Adhering to crossing lights is a very cultural thing.
| There was a thread that came up about this a week or two
| ago. Even within the US, perhaps especially within large
| northeastern cities like Boston and New York, people will
| cross if there's no traffic (or even if a driver has
| hesitated for a moment). Whereas on the West Coast people
| mostly obey the lights.
| peterhadlaw wrote:
| I think the point is that it's a cultural thing, regardless
| of how fortunate or unfortunate someone is.
| 9HZZRfNlpR wrote:
| I'm sure it plays a role, but there are countries with
| similar wealth and support systems, but so many things (like
| the lost property example) are unique to Japan.
| hourislate wrote:
| I lost my passport (didn't know at the time) at NRT. I had left
| it on a counter at a coffee shop. About 15 minutes later while
| sitting at the gate an airport employee ran up to me and handed
| it back. Just amazing.
| mmhsieh wrote:
| I got lost when going out to hike Mt. Nokogiri. I was walking
| wrong-way down some road when the employee at the visitor
| center some 1.5km away comes running after me to inform me
| that I am going the wrong way. I don't know how he deduced
| this after I walked out of that center. He escorted me to the
| correct trailhead which I missed by about 500m. Welcome to
| Japan.
| Zarel wrote:
| I'd always heard about this, but the one time I left my
| backpack in a Yamanote Line train, it was returned with around
| $2000 worth of cash (in multiple different countries'
| currencies) missing from my wallet. My wallet was really deep
| inside a bag inside a bag, too, so someone clearly went digging
| into my backpack.
| cookingrobot wrote:
| I once found a wallet on the sidewalk outside a mall in Japan.
| I tried to drop it at the mall's lost and found, but the
| security guard there took me with him to a police box. The
| policeman there took me to the local police station, and we
| spent the next hour filling out a report. They were all very
| friendly and appreciative that I turned it in, but it was
| really quite an ordeal. If I were to find something valuable
| again, I might just leave it alone to avoid the hassle.
| sanitycheck wrote:
| I think part of this is that a far greater proportion of "lost"
| valuables in Japan are _really_ lost than in other countries,
| street crime being pretty rare.
|
| But still, that 6% figure for New York! Can it be true? Is it
| really normal to steal other people's shit if they leave it
| behind?
| zuminator wrote:
| Just as an anecdote from a NYC resident, a couple years back I
| found a Japanese woman's wallet on a commuter bus. From the
| address I saw that the owner lived in my neighborhood so I went
| by her home after work to return it. Nobody was home so I left
| a little note with my phone number. She called me, and I met
| her the next day to return it to her. I considered our business
| concluded but about two months later she and her husband sent
| me a Christmas card with a gift card inside. I thanked them but
| sent the gift card back.
|
| I have also lost my own wallet on multiple occasions when I was
| younger and more careless, and I would say it was returned
| maybe two out of five times. Not great, but not that bad
| either.
| ido wrote:
| I don't know about Japanese culture, but where I'm from
| accepting the gift would be the polite thing to do (vs
| rejecting it).
| selectodude wrote:
| Yeah, spending postage and effort to return a $20 gift card
| (or whatever it was) is so rude. I'm not sure where in the
| world that wouldn't come off as rude.
| jotm wrote:
| Man, I was living in the UK. A kid on a skateboard dropped his
| phone, didn't notice. Less than a minute later, a guy (gardener
| or construction worker by the looks of it) picks it off the
| ground and gets in his van. Bye bye phone.
|
| Another time, found a wallet and returned it, the woman said
| it's unbelievable, no one else would do that. Gave me 10
| pounds, too, heh (there was way more in the wallet, plus cards
| and ID, it's how I found her). I'd be very happy if someone did
| that for me.
|
| But yeah, usually "finders keepers" holds true :/
|
| I like these kind of stories from Japan, makes it seem like
| people do respect each other. Shame not everything is that good
| over there.
| haskellandchill wrote:
| Yes.
| sct202 wrote:
| A youtuber did a similar test (but probably a lot less
| controlled) and it wasn't that bad (4/10 for NYC). Result
| spreadsheet:
| https://www.dropbox.com/s/m2ahob0949mmj3s/Wallet%20Data%20Ag...
| JakeTheAndroid wrote:
| I can't speak to NYC but in SF you absolutely will lose your
| shit. I have had coworkers get their cars broken into midday
| after leaving their backpack unattended for an hour or so.
| Friends have had their backpacks yanked from between their legs
| on Bart as it entered a station. These are not situations where
| these items are just laying around, and they were still taken.
|
| Coworkers have lost their laptops at bars or coffee shops
| because they got up for a few minutes. It could be that the
| value is so well established in this area; if you steal a
| backpack you are almost guaranteed to get a Macbook. IDK if
| that is similar in NY.
| Aunche wrote:
| My wallet dropped out of my pocket in Manhattan. After maybe 10
| minutes, somebody picked it up and proceeded to buy as many
| things with my cards until I cancelled them.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| _But still, that 6% figure for New York! Can it be true? Is it
| really normal to steal other people 's shit if they leave it
| behind?_
|
| Who said anything about shit getting stolen? The article
| claims: _88% of phones "lost" by the researchers_ were handed
| into the police _by Tokyo residents, compared to 6% of the ones
| "lost" in New York._ (emphasis mine)
|
| I found a wallet in NY once. The ID had the owner's address
| around the corner and I was able to drop it off to him. I found
| a phone once (I noticed it was ringing on an otherwise empty
| table) it was the phone's owner calling from her girlfriend's
| phone. I was able to hand it back to her myself. The cops
| really didn't need to get involved in either case and didn't.
| In another American city, I've left my phone in a cab and
| gotten it back without going through the police as well. Is a
| city a less trustful place if the cops aren't thought of as a
| lost & found?
| zebnyc wrote:
| Honest question: Do folks feel warm fuzzies when they do
| something "good / +ve"? Frankly unless I went out of my way to do
| something significant, I don't feel anything. Asking as there
| might be some of that going on here.
|
| For e.g., around Christmas here in SF, I was a at a shopping mall
| parking lot waiting for my wife to return. I noticed a man
| counting a few bills of cash. He counted and then turned to head
| to his car. As he turned he dropped a couple of bills. I just
| shouted out to him to bring it to my attention so he could get
| it. I don't feel anything about the incident and would be hard
| pressed to use it as a barometer of my character.
| minaa-chan wrote:
| I don't. I do "good" things because that's the way I was
| raised. I actually dislike getting thanked or anything that
| draws attention to the "good" thing I did because it seems so
| needless.
|
| Occasionally I'll feel a twinge of guilt if I could've helped
| out and didn't but usually I do it out of habit.
| sethammons wrote:
| Likely a few dollars means nothing to you so the act of
| pointing the nearly lost dollars is a similar small task (not
| withstanding the possibility the act could have a profound
| effect on the recipient depending on their situation).
|
| When I was younger and we were struggling hard, we found a
| wallet in a store loaded with green bills. That money would
| have had immediate, real, positive impact for us, like gas
| money and food that we did not have. We turned in the wallet
| and did not bother counting the bills. The cashier might have
| pocketed the money, who knows. But hopefully the owner of the
| wallet got their stuff back. I think that act does cast a
| barometer on my and my wife's character. We did what was
| "right" -- the property was not ours and not ours to take. Did
| we feel good about it? Nope! It was just doing the right thing
| even though there was a touch of pain to it.
| laurieg wrote:
| Funny this story should come up now.
|
| Two days ago I was on my regular running route and I saw a wallet
| on the ground. It had 5000 yen (around 50 USD) sticking out of
| it. The weather was a bit damp and it was far from a police box
| so I didn't want to risk getting randomly stopped and searched on
| my way to hand it in so I just put it on a fence post and went on
| my way.
|
| I run the same route everyday, so when I ran the next day lo and
| behold, the wallet was still there, complete with 5000 yen note
| sticking out. I'm curious if it will still be there on today's
| run.
| supernova87a wrote:
| There are both amazingly good and amazingly bad things about
| Japanese culture.
|
| The shame of being seen to be not honest or respecting people's
| property leads to amazing responsibility and kindness.
|
| But it also leads to people being depressed and feeling
| constrained not to be able to break out of societal expectations.
|
| The very things that make us love Japan, would make you go crazy
| to live there. So enjoy the privilege of being able to visit and
| experience the benefits, while not having to deal with the
| downsides.
|
| And maybe it causes you to reflect that, in the US -- the very
| personal freedoms (i.e. lack of guilt on being disobedient or
| trying new things) leads to a society where it's more likely
| you're not getting your wallet back if you leave it somewhere...
| generaljelly wrote:
| This is a good assessment. I believe Japan generally only works
| for people that already fall in line with societal norms to
| some extent.
|
| I do wish to believe that a personal freedom society and a
| society that takes your wallet don't have to be tightly
| coupled... Although I will say the public shame of Japan is
| stronger than the private shame of the US.
| russdill wrote:
| Related:
| https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2019/09/02/62-m...
|
| Michele Gelfand on tight vs loose cultures. There's also a link
| there to her TEDx talk.
| duxup wrote:
| There was a good blog post about a guy living in Japan.
|
| Here he was in this clean and crime free place, but his bicycle
| kept getting trashed overnight. Just his bike parked in a sea
| of other bikes.
|
| He thought it was because he was a foreigner, but finally after
| he reported it to the police numerous times someone explained
| the phrase "The nail that sticks out gets knocked down." and
| pointed out the bikes he was buying were from China.
|
| His bike looked similar to everyone else's bike in the area,
| but it was made by a Chinese company and there had been news
| stories about how these bikes were faulty / dangerous / bad
| (the information apparently was somewhat questionable).
|
| So he bought a proper Japanese bike that looked like the other
| bikes, and it never happened again.
|
| The contrast of a clean and orderly society with very targeted
| pressure by random members of society not to do something like
| buy the wrong bike ... is quite striking.
| drdeadringer wrote:
| > "The nail that sticks out gets knocked down."
|
| Ever since I first heard this I've kept both this phrase and
| the phrase "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" in mind at the
| same time.
|
| Basically, both sides of this coin together ask you "should
| you speak up?" type of thing; substitute "speak up" with
| whatever the given situation is.
| raarts wrote:
| We Dutch have a similar proverb: "Whoever sticks his head
| above ground level, his head is cut off. "
| 1996 wrote:
| Tall poppy syndrome, which can be oppressive in Northern
| Europe.
|
| Germany seems more relaxed than the Netherlands, and
| France seems to be worse. I've had friends telling me
| their Mercedes got frequently keyed for no reason, and
| the old Mercedes star on their classic even got ripped
| off.
| bengalister wrote:
| French guy here.
|
| There is a proverb in France that says that to live a
| happy life, you'd better keep a low profile (not literal
| translation which would more be to live a happy life,
| live hidden) "vivons heureux, vivons caches".
|
| So yes if you own nice things and show it publicly,
| you'll get annoying comments, have them damaged or
| stolen. And it is getting worse.
|
| Unlike in Japan, I would not expect a lost wallet to be
| returned to its owner, never.
| monksy wrote:
| That's very true in Germany. They do have a lot of
| freedoms, but they aren't very creative as a society.
| They fall back on strong adherence to rules and their
| culture re-enforces it.
|
| See this:
|
| https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/10599631/Why-
| the...
| duxup wrote:
| That seems a lot less elegant a phrase...
| davidgay wrote:
| I'm guessing it sounds a lot more elegant in Dutch...
| seppin wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome
| [deleted]
| rb808 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
| novok wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
| SkyBelow wrote:
| It is interesting to ponder why we do either.
|
| We hammer nails because we want a flat surface. We grease
| wheels because we want quite wheels.
|
| If you get the hammer or the grease depends upon what is
| needed to fix the problem. Do you need a punishment or a
| reward.
| lawn wrote:
| Wasn't there a story a while ago how a Japanese school
| essentially forced (or put a lot of pressure) a schoolgirl to
| dye her hair to fit in with the other girls, but it failed
| over and over until she got burns on her head?
| supernova87a wrote:
| Another regarding gender expectations is the recent news
| that a (maybe more than 1?) Japanese medical school's
| admissions staff were rigging standardized test scores to
| disfavor women applicants. This is because they were seen
| as less reliable / career-oriented or productive (or
| whatever justification) for not favoring them to receive
| the education that men deserve.
|
| Expectations.
| Aunche wrote:
| It isn't an irrational bias thing. Women in Japan are
| pressured to stay at home to take care of the kids, so
| they're less likely to work as much as a men.
| triceratops wrote:
| Bias is bias. Not to mention this can cause vicious
| cycles where women don't progress in their career due to
| a perception they'll become homemakers -> are pressured
| to work less because the career is going nowhere ->
| continue to not progress.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| My first day in Japan I fell asleep on the train. I woke up to a
| train employee telling me to leave the train. I grabbed my bag
| and left in a daze, only to realize too late that I left my
| duffle bag on the top shelf. I reported it and was assured that
| it would be found. 2 weeks later they still hadn't found my bag
| but kindly told me that it must have been a Korean.
|
| Um. Well, that was 20 years ago. I'm sure things are different
| now.
| throwaheyy wrote:
| Because they care about others
| pzumk wrote:
| > In a study comparing dropped phones and wallets in New York and
| Tokyo, 88% of phones "lost" by the researchers were handed into
| the police by Tokyo residents, compared to 6% of the ones "lost"
| in New York. Likewise, 80% of Tokyo wallets were handed in
| compared to 10% in New York.
|
| Wow!
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