[HN Gopher] Efforts to change the Japanese culture of extreme wo...
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Efforts to change the Japanese culture of extreme work weeks
Author : pseudolus
Score : 96 points
Date : 2020-01-17 16:58 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| andrekandre wrote:
| > "While Western society is individualistic and non-hierarchical,
| Japanese society is collectivist and hierarchical," explains
| Hiroshi Ono, professor of human resources management at
| Hitotsubashi University, who specialises in Japan's work culture.
|
| i am not a researcher, but i dont think that's the root cause,
| since
|
| 1. there are many types of "western culture" and 2. if it were a
| sign of collectivist vs individualistic the the u.s should be
| fairly low on the list but appears above japan! [1]
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#OECD_ranking
|
| -----
|
| just my opinion from working in jp for more than 10 years, but
| the only thing that will truly fix the overwork problem will be
| to officially change the workweek to 4 days... they tried
| something like this with "premium friday" [2] which went
| absolutely nowhere...
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_Friday
| umvi wrote:
| USA gets bashed a lot on employment front, but only because we
| are way more transparent about our problems than Japan. Yes, the
| extreme work culture causing karoshi is a big issue. However,
| Japan also has _serious_ workplace discrimination issues that
| never get talked about.
|
| For example, how many here have ever heard of Burakumin[1]? It's
| a taboo subject to talk about in Japan, so it is rare you'll hear
| of it through mainstream news.
|
| Basically, in many places in southern Japan, when you apply for a
| job, employers will look up your surname to see if your ancestors
| were burakumin (held "impure" occupations in the feudal era like
| butcher, tanner, etc). If so, they won't hire you.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin
| 9nGQluzmnq3M wrote:
| The extent to which burakumin discrimination still exists is
| itself a hotly debated topic. One of the two main buraku rights
| groups disbanded in 2004 because they felt the issue had been
| resolved, and (IMHO) at least in Tokyo literally nobody cares
| anymore.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin#Buraku_Liberation_Le...
| unsignedint wrote:
| I won't say all, but good portion of buraku discrimination is
| driven actually by these buraku rights group. There are bit
| of concessions exist (via affirmative action for instance)
| and there are some incentive that some of those groups want
| keep this issue alive for the sake of that, rather than try
| to actually resolve the issue somehow.
|
| Like you said, a lot of people don't care, especially in
| urban regions, because the concept of buraku itself is fairly
| foreign to people living there. Maybe this is but more
| prominent in rulal areas.
| pretendscholar wrote:
| Can you not change your surname?
| unsignedint wrote:
| Actually only by surname you can only guess; there are some
| demographic distribution which some name are more common
| among. But this is not very accurate as people have moved
| around and with marriages and such, it's not always the case
| any more. (Japanese law still requires wives to convert to
| husband's in a conventional marriage.)
|
| Source of information that often cited as is a Ben Ji
| (honseki -- a location of where national registry is filed
| and hence, stored.) This information used to be required for
| a lot of the places (including driver's license, job
| application, among others) but because of this abuse, this is
| no longer a commonly collected information unless it is
| required. (And also you can change honseki, too.)
| czep wrote:
| It's actually exceedingly difficult. The family registry,
| koseki, is steeped in a thousand years of tradition. You
| can't simply walk into the nearest city ward office and fill
| out a form.
|
| There are also restrictions on the kinds of names you are
| allowed to choose, if for example you are naturalizing. The
| list of allowed names clearly distinguishes you and your
| family from "true" Japanese.
| oceanghost wrote:
| I have read about discriminatino based on blood types as well.
| Do you have any feeling about how prevelant that may be?
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| Blood types in Japan are very analogous to astrological signs
| in the US. There are a lot of people who believe your blood
| type says things about you, and a small fraction who say rude
| things about them or make important decisions based on them,
| but to call it "discrimination" implies a level of prevalence
| which isn't really there.
| Razengan wrote:
| > _employers will look up your surname to see if your ancestors
| were burakumin_
|
| Do you have a source for that?
| oefrha wrote:
| According to the Wikipedia page Burakumin makes up <1% of the
| Japanese population. That's hardly comparable to the
| discrimination towards people of color in the U.S., which make
| up ~30% of the population. Systemic racial segregation is still
| in living memory for crying out loud.
| redisman wrote:
| So does racial discrimination not exist in Japan? Seems like
| it should be added to the figure there.
| ska wrote:
| I don't think it's a question of the existence of racism in
| Japan (or wherever), but of it's relative impact. Sucks to
| be a member of a small minority being discriminated against
| in a mostly homogeneous country, but the scale of the
| problem is very different than in
| US/Canada/Singapore/wherever.
| oefrha wrote:
| Not sure, but add 2 percentage points? Still off by an
| order of magnitude.
|
| The point is when 30% of people are discriminated against,
| it's extremely noticeable, compared to when <1%, or at most
| 2-3% are. No point in awarding transparency points for
| that.
| sneak wrote:
| Or, you know, women.
| aeyes wrote:
| This law change is a first step but I don't see why you can't
| pass a law which forces companies to make a worker take the full
| minimum annual leave.
|
| When I worked in Germany the company I worked at did that. You
| had until the end of the first quarter of the next year to use
| all of your vacation days. If you still had vacation left after
| this date, they forced you to take them until the end of the
| second quarter - this was frowned upon and managers made sure it
| wouldn't happen.
|
| I'm not sure if this is a law or just something the company did
| but the problem here isn't peer pressure. It seems to be part of
| the business model of Japanese companies because implementing and
| enforcing such a policy is easy.
| blackearl wrote:
| As strange as it may sound, passing that law might be really
| difficult. The article mentions "In September, Shinjiro
| Koizumi, Japan's environment minister, faced widespread
| opposition and even calls to resign over his plans to take
| paternity leave after his wife gives birth."
|
| Things are changing in Japan, but progress appears to be moving
| at a glacial pace.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Ironically enough, Japan has one of the most generous
| paternity leaves in the entire world. It's just that no one*
| uses it.
|
| https://qz.com/1084591/despite-japans-generous-paternity-
| lea...
| pixelcort wrote:
| Yes, and only for a plan to take ten days spread over three
| months. Apparently that's bad enough for people to demand a
| resignation.
| duxup wrote:
| I ran the schedule for about 20 peers in a 24/7 shop (mostly
| because some MBA grad couldn't handle it but that's another
| story), and I was tasked with making folks took time off.
|
| I was clear with everyone how it worked and always worked with
| everyone to make sure time off worked out for all involved. It
| really isn't that hard if you put the time in to getting along
| with folks / understanding what they want, etc.
|
| Eventually though I would have to "force it". I'd schedule
| random days off here and there, suddenly a week off for some
| folks who never took time off. Most folks kinda liked it as a
| sort of "happy surprise". Everyone was salary so nobody lost
| any money or anything like that.
|
| It actually worked out well, mostly because I made sure
| everyone knew what to expect / how it would happen if they just
| didn't use any PTO and I kept everyone up to date as to where
| they stood.
|
| I was surprised by how many people just really ... never took
| time off until I made them.
| majos wrote:
| Why do you think people avoided time off?
| duxup wrote:
| It's the midwest... people like to work.
|
| It was also a really nice environment.
|
| It was a sort of stress free ... high stress technical
| support situation. But everyone supported each other so it
| was surprisingly easy going.
| war1025 wrote:
| I usually end up just taking all my vacation at the end of
| the year in a big block.
|
| Part of the reason is we don't schedule anything very far
| in advance, so I am hesitant usually to use vacation days
| early in the year when I might want to use them later on.
|
| Also, my work schedule is flexible enough that there is
| rarely a reason to take time off. If I need to leave early,
| I leave early. If I need to go to an appointment, I go to
| an appointment. None of it affects my time off.
|
| And I guess maybe I just like routine?
| claudeganon wrote:
| > "While Western society is individualistic and non-hierarchical,
| Japanese society is collectivist and hierarchical," explains
| Hiroshi Ono, professor of human resources management at
| Hitotsubashi University, who specialises in Japan's work culture.
| "Thus, many people refrain from taking holiday because their
| bosses do not take holiday, or they are afraid that it will
| disrupt the group harmony."
|
| Just FYI, this is complete pablum. While it's true that Japanese
| society has a collectivist bent, that this by default maps to
| some authoritarian business culture, elides the political and
| ideological project of the right wing in Japan.
|
| Prior to the war and up into the 1970s, Japan was a hotbed of
| radical politics and labor activism that roiled the country.
| Unions dominated many industries, socialists and communists won
| major parliamentary victories, and Japanese thinkers and
| activists were on the vanguard of many left wing movements.
|
| This state of affairs was, however, completely unacceptable to
| the US. And so they proceeded to massively subsidize right wing
| politicians, work with organized crime to intimidate and disrupt
| unionized workers, and gather intelligence against opposition to
| the LDP's rule.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-...
|
| So if you want to understand why the country has devolved into
| this kind of crushing exploitation and culture of suffering, you
| really need to begin with the fact that the US rehabilitated a
| bunch of fascists, helped orchestrate their rule over the postwar
| order, and crushed all meaningful challenge to this state of
| affairs. There's nothing inherent to the Japanese people that
| makes any of this necessary.
| twoquestions wrote:
| Did not know that. Thanks for the heads up!
| claudeganon wrote:
| The author of this article, Tim Weiner, wrote a great book
| about the history of the CIA called, "Legacy of Ashes." It
| covers the history of these operations in Japan and across
| Europe.
| WC3w6pXxgGd wrote:
| This is not the proper role of government. Period. Sorry, but
| there is nothing else to say about this.
| wiggler00m wrote:
| How would people react in the US if the Secretary of Energy took
| paternity leave?
| wnevets wrote:
| not at all?
| redisman wrote:
| Great! Less damage those oil lobbyists can do.
| duxup wrote:
| I feel like I've seen articles like this for decades.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I feel like I've been reading comments like this for decades.
| ahartmetz wrote:
| ...though what I hear is that they are really serious about it
| in Japan, and Korea, too. And slowly the worked hours are
| decreasing. For sure it is slowed down by the Keiretsus and the
| Jaebols almost having power of government.
| acd wrote:
| Both Japan and US/Vacation should have more yearly vacation at
| least 4-5 weeks. I think it would be very beneficial to general
| mental health. Also to have less exposure to advertisement which
| recently has also shown to have a negative effect on health -
| https://hbr.org/2020/01/advertising-makes-us-unhappy.
|
| It used to be in Japan that you would not leave the office before
| your manager left whatever time that was.
| james_s_tayler wrote:
| Used to be?
|
| Still is.
| flanbiscuit wrote:
| > It used to be in Japan that you would not leave the office
| before your manager left whatever time that was.
|
| "used to be"? has this changed? I thought this was still the
| case in the older salary-men type companies.
| james_s_tayler wrote:
| My sister-in-law works in a tiny company doing graphic
| design. It's the same thing. Can't leave until the boss does.
|
| She recently came to visit us in my home country for
| Christmas whereupon I learned that she has a 2 hour commute
| each way on purpose because of this. I asked her isn't
| commuting 4 hours a day just awful, why don't you live closer
| to work? And she replied that if she lived closer to work she
| would simply be at work longer and having a long commute
| means 4 hours a day she can spend not doing work stuff but
| doing things like listening to music and playing games on her
| phone.
| 9nGQluzmnq3M wrote:
| The issue in Japan is that even if you have (say) 3 weeks of
| vacation, it's considered bad form to actually use more than a
| few days.
|
| This is one reason why Japan has so many public holidays: it's
| a way to legally enforce that most salarymen get some time off.
| DanCarvajal wrote:
| My job gives me enough leave that if I timed it with certain
| holiday breaks we get I could be off for well over a month. My
| wife's job gives her seven days of vacation total.
| Ididntdothis wrote:
| "My wife's job gives her seven days of vacation total."
|
| That's just nuts. I had 15 for a while and it felt to me like
| I could never get a break and life was just a never ending
| string of work.
| lowdest wrote:
| 15 is three whole weeks, not so bad. At some point my
| brainwashing was complete, now I'm on a race to accumulate
| maximum wealth before retirement. I spend a lot of my days
| off doing things that will increase earnings.
| twblalock wrote:
| I keep hearing that Japanese workers work very long hours, but
| every time I've been in Tokyo the rush hour on the trains is
| about when I'd expect it to be -- between about 5 and 7 pm. I
| don't see how that would be the case if everyone was still at
| work.
| T-hawk wrote:
| The corporate salaryman isn't 100% of Japanese adults as it
| sometimes seems in these threads. It's somewhere around 20% to
| 30%, as it is for white-collar jobs everywhere.
| pixelcort wrote:
| There's another rush hour between 9 and 11 pm.
|
| Another way to confirm this is to compare with the morning rush
| hour. Way more crowded as most people start work at around the
| same time (most companies have a starting time of 9 or 10 am).
| archeantus wrote:
| I feel very fortunate and grateful that I was able to send this
| Slack message to my team on December 19:
|
| " @here I want to thank everyone for a great year. We've
| accomplished a ton, and I think we need to stop and recognize it.
| My ask for everyone is to take the week off next week. We have a
| few things we need to be on-call for, and heaven knows we could
| use the time to write more tests, but I think it is important to
| pause, rest, and reflect."
|
| Im so glad that this is totally cool in our company and our
| culture. I wish this was the rule and not the exception.
| [deleted]
| pixelcort wrote:
| One additional challenge that will need to be addressed in Japan
| is unreported overtime (sabisuCan Ye ). Often my friends, upon
| preparing for a day off, will work about 8 hours of overtime
| beforehand and not report it on the time and attendance systems
| at their companies. From my understanding, unreported overtime is
| not always reflected in most statistics; even when self reporting
| I bet many people forget all the unreported overtime they do.
| Another example is rounding down: work 2.5 hours of overtime but
| only report 2.
|
| I'm not sure what the solution is, but one idea is to lock out
| work laptops after a time limit, or at least record overtime when
| a work laptop is being used.
|
| Until we can begin to accurately track and measure the unreported
| overtime, we won't be able to improve it.
|
| Finally, I think working in multicultural teams helps. When you
| see your peers have diverse beliefs and actions about work and
| life, you may be more willing to take more time off, and more
| accurately report the overtime you do take.
| bitxbit wrote:
| There's a lot of sitting around and doing nothing in East Asian
| office work culture. It's similar to investment banking where you
| are not necessarily using your brain/energy but you are still at
| the office for insane hours churning out 100 different versions
| of the handouts.
| kqr wrote:
| Can someone explain something to me? I hear a lot about Japan's
| extreme work culture; I've even heard of a workplace where your
| contributions were scored -- but only negative (penalty) scores
| existed.
|
| How can this come out of the same country as the Toyota
| production system, the popularization of quality control, and the
| intense study of Deming?
| michaelbuckbee wrote:
| I'm always curious to what extent work hours correlate with
| productivity. I think it was patio11 who shared his story of a
| salaryman co-worker fixing his bike in his cubicle on a Saturday
| he was "working" in the office.
|
| And while I haven't seen first-hand the Japanese style overwork,
| I have seen Silicon Valley startup "overwork" up close and have
| similar concerns. My pet theory is that in early-stage startups
| it's so unclear what is actually valuable and productive work
| that the overwork becomes a proxy for productivity.
| riantogo wrote:
| The issue is that most startups are in survival mode and hence
| has a natural pressure from that. The trick is to manage
| expectation at IC level. Knowing that there is this natural
| pressure commit to only what you can deliver in 15hrs/week.
| Then work "hard" and overdeliver equivalent of 30hrs/week.
| Spend 10hrs on above the weed activity (evaluate, measure,
| communicate, course correct etc.). Be religious about this
| template.
| blackearl wrote:
| Tokyo Sonata is a pretty good fictional movie about the honor
| associated with working. Some salarymen would fake a job,
| leaving each day in a suit. On the other side of the spectrum,
| there are people forced into quitting because they would go to
| work and sit in a room all day since management didn't want the
| dishonor of firing someone. It definitely comes across as odd
| to a foreigner.
| VRay wrote:
| Overworking East Asians end up spending a lot of time
| completely zonked out at their desks, scooting the mouse cursor
| back and forth over the same spreadsheet or Word doc until it's
| time to go home
| vorpalhex wrote:
| I think one of the easiest wins here would be what some US
| startups with unlimited leave were practicing: a required minimum
| of days off.
|
| Usually there were two check ins and if you didn't burn a minimum
| of leave by then, your manager would take your work laptop and
| send you home on paid leave until you met it.
|
| Once leave becomes mandatory.. you can't judge people for taking
| it. Obviously the goal is for them to want to use the leave (and
| plan what they want to do with it) instead of forcing them to
| take it, but it's a leveling action.
| GloriousKoji wrote:
| I used to work for a large (American) company where vacation
| days were traditionally accrued but there was a "cash-out
| vacation hours" button on the HR portal. It was just another
| way pressure people into working more hours.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| Accrued leave is a liability on a company's books, and it can
| easily become very large. Minimizing that liability is a
| typical motive behind such schemes.
| whatsmyusername wrote:
| Mandatory Leave is common in certain financial institutions.
| It's to make sure you can't keep a scam going that requires you
| to be the person doing something every day.
| Reedx wrote:
| Unlimited leave is one of the biggest jokes in silicon valley.
|
| It's literally not unlimited and because of the psychology
| involved it often results in people taking less time off than
| if they simply had N days of allocated vacation. It also means
| that if you leave or get laid off, the time you didn't take is
| worth $0. Additionally, as you allude to, I've seen it breed
| resentment when people are seen as taking too much vacation.
|
| A terrible system for everyone except the company, as they have
| less liability on the books.
|
| Required minimum is a good idea, but it's very rare.
| president wrote:
| > I think one of the easiest wins here would be what some US
| startups with unlimited leave were practicing: a required
| minimum of days off.
|
| Any examples of companies that are doing this? I haven't heard
| of many, at least in the SF Bay Area.
| lukego wrote:
| This reminds me of being an employee in Stockholm. You get
| scolded if you haven't booked thirty days of vacation into
| the calendar. Someone comes to your desk and makes you pick
| the dates.
|
| You come back with a lot of energy too :-)
| irrational wrote:
| Yeah, but that energy dissipates pretty quickly. I took
| three weeks off recently. I came back very energized and
| upbeat. It took maybe 2 days to get back to "normal".
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _You come back with a lot of energy too :-)_
|
| "Man Returns To Work After Vacation With Fresh, Reenergized
| Hatred For Job"
|
| * https://local.theonion.com/man-returns-to-work-after-
| vacatio...
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Happened to me last week. Had to pick 23 days between now
| and 13th of April.
|
| I picked at random, the `manager` and I both know I'll be
| working at home anyway.
| gsk22 wrote:
| I honestly do not understand this mentality. You're given
| 23 paid days off, why would you donate that time back to
| your employer?
| ThrustVectoring wrote:
| Mandatory leave is common in the financial sector, where it
| is used as an anti-fraud device. Keeping your employer from
| figuring out the scheme you're pulling is a lot harder when
| you have to have someone cover for you for two weeks.
| amluto wrote:
| It's not just anti-fraud. If you force someone to take a
| vacation, you force the organization to be able to function
| without them. This prevents a situation where only a single
| person is able to make something critical work.
| close04 wrote:
| In Europe this is pretty standard practice everywhere.
| Say you have 30 days of vacation per year. You have to
| take at least 20, and 10 of those have to be consecutive.
| Otherwise your manager gets a bollocking from their
| manager and HR. In theory at least.
|
| The rest of the days might be lost, transferred into next
| year's vacation with a cutoff (like until end of Q1 next
| year or end of the year otherwise they are lost), or with
| no cutoff and they stack up forever.
| ohlookabird wrote:
| Yes, that's what experienced, too in Germany. Both in the
| private and public sector.
| skinkestek wrote:
| Here in Norway it is 5 workweeks (6 for those over 60 I
| think), 2 can be transferred (either way I think) and 3
| are mandatory.
|
| And if you delay two weeks to next year that means 5
| mandatory weeks that year.
|
| And: it is not just in theory. It is the law and both
| parts can get in trouble if you don't follow it.
| MockObject wrote:
| When people from here write "here", which "here" do they
| mean? The one here, or the one there?
| skinkestek wrote:
| Thanks for pointing it out. I've updated my post.
| m4rtink wrote:
| At least in Czech Republic, this is mandated by - you
| have to take your PTO in the calendar year it was awarded
| to you (20 days are mandated by law, by in practice
| companies give 25 to stay competitive) & your employer
| has to let you take it (not necessarily when you want,
| but it has to be in the calendar year).
|
| If the PTO is not taken, the company can be fined by the
| state, so this is taken rather seriously.
| close04 wrote:
| It's mandated by law almost everywhere in Europe but
| since countries don't fully align their laws there may be
| significant some differences are n how many days and the
| actual conditions.
| kubanczyk wrote:
| In Poland about the same, but with an interesting twist:
| it's not the company, or CEO, or HR, that risk a fine;
| the first person fined is your direct manager,
| personally. Works like a charm, I have to admit.
| ska wrote:
| Agreed, this is a pretty good way to address the "bus
| number" problem in technical projects.
|
| It also forces people to communicate details somewhat.
| zeristor wrote:
| "Fatal bus error" as some call it.
|
| Although around Old Street the buses don't really go
| above walking speed.
| hawaiianbrah wrote:
| I prefer the term "lottery factor". Winning the lottery
| sounds a lot more positive than getting killed by a bus.
| TheOperator wrote:
| Won a bus, hit by the lottery.
| mcny wrote:
| Today I learned.
|
| For others reading, here is what I found:
|
| > at a minimum, covers those officers and employees
| involved or engaged in transactional business or having the
| ability to change the official records of the institution
|
| https://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/industry/il960822.htm
|
| > The New York State Banking Department considers it to be
| a prudent business practice for every bank, and branch or
| agency of a foreign banking corporation, to promulgate and
| maintain a written vacation policy which, at a minimum,
| covers those officers and employees involved or engaged in
| transactional business or having the ability to change the
| official records of the institution. This policy should
| also cover all other staffers who are capable of
| influencing or causing such activities to occur. The
| Department strongly recommends that all traders be covered
| by the policy.
|
| > Employees in such sensitive positions should be required
| to take at least two (2) consecutive weeks of vacation (or
| other leave) on an annual basis. During such time, the
| officer or employee must be off-site and off-line. In other
| words, not only should he/she be physically absent from
| your premises, but he/she should also not be permitted to
| effect any transactions or other banking business from off-
| site, such as through an off-site computer link.
|
| https://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/industry/il960822.htm
|
| archived at: https://outline.com/Y3dcgF
| https://archive.md/LJvbH
| claudeganon wrote:
| It won't work because there's no real labor regulation
| enforcement in a Japan and Abe and his cronies have no interest
| in fixing that either. Unpaid overtime and off-the-clock work
| is already a widespread problem in Japan. All you'd end up with
| is vacations on paper.
| riantogo wrote:
| I mean this is such an obvious solution I was pretty sure this
| is what the article would share as what Japan gov is mandating.
| So I kept reading and paragraphs after paragraphs discussed the
| problem without getting to what the title is. I gave up.
| james_s_tayler wrote:
| "When asked about colleagues' reactions to taking time off, he
| adds: They would react negatively. They will not say anything
| directly to that person but they will speak ill of that person
| behind their back"
|
| This nails it. That pang of guilt and horror knowing you'll be
| reacted to in such a seemingly viscous way just stops you dead in
| your tracks.
|
| I think the silly thing is it's always framed as "maintaining the
| group harmony" but it's more like maintaining the group misery.
|
| Why do the co-workers react the way they do? It's such a bitter
| way to react. "I can't take time off because you'd be mad at me
| for doing so, because it would put you out, yet you're ok with
| taking time off and putting me out? What kind of bullshit is
| that? I'm definitely very mad at you!".
|
| So the idea is that you don't want to do anything that would make
| anyone mad at you because "that's not what Japanese do".
|
| It's just so circular.
| jaequery wrote:
| I think it's much simpler than that. They are rewarded to stay
| late by you keeping a job. The guy who leaves early will be the
| first to get let go. That is the real problem.
| [deleted]
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