[HN Gopher] All Sonos products will continue to work past May
___________________________________________________________________
All Sonos products will continue to work past May
Author : wlj
Score : 64 points
Date : 2020-01-23 21:54 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.sonos.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.sonos.com)
| stirlo wrote:
| I'm surprised they're issuing a statement admitting they made a
| "misstep". Surely they knew in advance the original update
| (removing support for their earliest adopters) would be received
| extremely negatively. I would have thought their comms strategy
| would have been to hold the line and wait for it to die down
| rather than revising their status so quickly.
|
| Either way the damage is done. It's become clear through the
| "recycling" program, the revision of the Sonos ONE after only 16
| months and now the lobotomizing of the original Play 5 that they
| are not going to stand behind their products like they used to.
| I'm not buying more $400 speakers from a company that's aim is to
| force upgrades by deprecating support to bring up their quarterly
| sales figures.
|
| Time to buy some Chromecast or Airplay 2 devices and sign up for
| an ecosystem from a company that has a different revenue stream
| and doesn't need to force rapid hardware refreshes.
| tranklor wrote:
| >revision of the Sonos ONE after only 16 months
|
| The original ONE is still supported
|
| >lobotomizing of the original Play 5
|
| discontinued 4 years ago - that's a pretty long tail and in
| line with Apple
|
| >Time to buy some Chromecast or Airplay 2 devices
|
| Airplay support depends on mfg of your device. Apple has a
| similar policy to sonos (5 years for phones, i believe) - but
| they state it on their site!
|
| I think Sonos' biggest mistake was not having a transparent
| policy like Apple does. The real issue here, to me, is that
| they broke an unstated and unwritten promise: consumers
| inferred that devices had lifetime support - an inference that
| i think is completely reasonable!
| taneq wrote:
| > discontinued 4 years ago - that's a pretty long tail and in
| line with Apple
|
| My stereo system was built in 1999. It still works fine and
| will continue to do so no matter what Sony does with their
| web servers.
| corebit wrote:
| Your ability to find tapes, discs, or things to plugin to
| it (assuming it even supports that) are disappearing with
| increasing speed.
| berbec wrote:
| Are you suggesting RCA jacks are getting phased out?
| That's the only way I need to worry.
| klodolph wrote:
| When buying home theater equipment recently I've had to
| make sure it had RCA jacks. Plenty of TVs don't have
| them, I think.
| pryce wrote:
| My stereo system is from 2003. There is something deeply
| warped about accepting this idea each electronic product we
| buy should have a 2-4 year life expectancy.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > discontinued 4 years ago - that's a pretty long tail and in
| line with Apple
|
| That may be in line with Apple, but it's not a long tail.
| It's short. I expect that any hardware I buy will function
| for decades.
| [deleted]
| Kalium wrote:
| The Sonos hardware will still function for quite a long
| time to come. It just won't receive software updates. You
| can still expect it to work as-is.
| taneq wrote:
| The idea that $400 speakers should only continue to function
| under the continued charity of the company that sold them is
| farcical in any event.
| ebeip90 wrote:
| "continue to function" != "receive new features"
|
| They'll all continue to work exactly as they already do.
| cm2187 wrote:
| The damage was done a long time ago when they announced they
| would brick your device unless you signed up to an online
| account.
| netsharc wrote:
| Well, this blog post seems to suggest the blowback from their
| "we're killing off legacy hardware" was too much that they
| had to make this blog post.
|
| I hope the blowback doesn't cease and people stop buying
| Sonos, but maybe I'm just being vindicative. If they stop
| their greedy policies, that would also make the world a
| better place.
| wlj wrote:
| They're admitting a misstep, but they're not actually changing
| much.
|
| At best, there's a vague pledge to update legacy players a bit
| longer, but they're still breaking your current whole home
| audio system, because legacy and modern players will need to be
| split into two separate systems.
| zaroth wrote:
| During a home renovation last year I added in-ceiling speakers
| throughout the first floor.
|
| I bought 8 Polk Audio speakers for $45 each plus a couple hundred
| feet of speaker cable from Monoprice and an 8 channel amplifier
| off Amazon which takes audio in from my receiver, which supports
| Chromecast and AirPlay.
|
| I had the opportunity to do this because the ceilings were
| already ripped down to redo lighting.
|
| The installers asked why I wasn't going with Sonos and I said why
| would I replace a device which is literally impossible to become
| obsolete, requires zero configuration, and is almost impossible
| to break with a device which will maybe last 5 years if I'm lucky
| and requires configuration, software updates, and license
| agreements?
|
| I get it if you have absolutely no way to run the wires then a
| WiFi system maybe almost makes sense. Otherwise how can you beat
| hard-wired speakers and a dumb 8-channel amp?
| antoniuschan99 wrote:
| Can't you bluetooth to that amp anyway? It's just an additional
| aux?
| ghaff wrote:
| With luck. I've never been able to make the Bluetooth to my
| Denon work. I just plug in an old iPhone instead.
| wuunderbar wrote:
| There's a middle-ground here using the Sonos Connect/Port
| connected to a traditional system. This would work well for
| your use case.
|
| Some people genuinely like the Sonos software.
| benologist wrote:
| Their software bricks the speakers under questionable
| pretenses - the CEO neglected to mention this issue.
|
| https://www.pcmag.com/news/sonos-trade-up-program-
| criticized...
| fingerlocks wrote:
| I did literally the exact same thing recently.
|
| However, my chromecast audio stopped working (possibly related
| to the product sun-setting?), and I was surprised to learn that
| Apple no longer manufactures the AirPorts. What kind of audio
| receiver did you use? I ended up purchasing a "new" AirPort
| Express on Ebay, but how else does one use AirPlay these days
| with off the shelf audio equipment? I couldn't find anything
| helpful via googling.
| gnabgib wrote:
| While you can't easily buy chromecast audio anymore, mine are
| working just fine (so hopefully not sun-setting!) I have
| dongles and speakers that support chromecast. Playing right
| now
| mikewhy wrote:
| Are you able to turn on/off speakers without having to go to
| the amp/receiver?
| gok wrote:
| You're able to use Chromecast and AirPlay without license
| agreements?
| linsomniac wrote:
| You make a good point, but I have a counterpoint...
|
| My Father-in-law had a house built a couple years ago. The guy
| that did the A/V used the same setup you are talking about
| (Denon A/V receiver, multi-zone audio for whole house music, IR
| blaster for A/V system in a cabinet in the next room, 5+1
| surround).
|
| They struggle with that system. It required a dedicated smart
| remote to turn on and control all the gear. But instead of a
| Logitech Harmony, he used some other brand that "is easier for
| installers to program". I had to make YouTube videos to remind
| myself and my FIL how to operate the system, particularly for
| less used configurations like playing a DVD or playing music on
| the deck...
|
| I was pretty shocked, because this was basically the A/V setup
| I had 20 years ago...
|
| My current setup is: Everything goes to the TV (PS4,
| Chromecast, soundbar), Soundbar is controlled by the TV remote
| using CEC (Consumer Electronics Control). Most things are
| controllable by the TV remote.
|
| CEC allows the TV to tell the soundbar to adjust the volume,
| the Chromecast to pause or play, though that doesn't seem to
| work when playing DVDs on the PS4, where we use the PS4 remote.
| CEC can also tell the TV to change inputs, so all I have to do
| is start casting to the Chromecast and the TV turns on and
| switches to the right input, turn the PS4 on and ditto, etc...
|
| Music in the bathroom? That's a Google Home. Music in the
| garage or back patio? That's a Bluetooth Jambox. Though that
| comes with it's own issues.
|
| Yes, simple is good. But these days I'd call this sort of CEC
| setup the simpler option. I appreciate the Receiver option, but
| I'm reluctant to switch away from this setup. I've been wanting
| to build some kick ass speakers using my woodworking and
| electronics skills, but I can't bring myself to introduce an
| amp/receiver to the mix.
|
| Aside: Does anyone know of a CEC controller for embedding into
| DIY soundbars? They make some that do amp+bluetooth+aux in, but
| I haven't found one that does HDMI in with CEC.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| Hugged to death, I think.
| cushychicken wrote:
| They emailed out the same statement to Sonos subscribers:
|
| _We heard you. We did not get this right from the start. My
| apologies for that and I wanted to personally assure you of the
| path forward:_
|
| _First, rest assured that come May, when we end new software
| updates for our legacy products, they will continue to work
| just as they do today. We are not bricking them, we are not
| forcing them into obsolescence, and we are not taking anything
| away. Many of you have invested heavily in your Sonos systems,
| and we intend to honor that investment for as long as possible.
| While legacy Sonos products won't get new software features, we
| pledge to keep them updated with bug fixes and security patches
| for as long as possible. If we run into something core to the
| experience that can't be addressed, we'll work to offer an
| alternative solution and let you know about any changes you'll
| see in your experience._
|
| _Secondly, we heard you on the issue of legacy products and
| modern products not being able to coexist in your home. We are
| working on a way to split your system so that modern products
| work together and get the latest features, while legacy
| products work together and remain in their current state. We're
| finalizing details on this plan and will share more in the
| coming weeks._
|
| _While we have a lot of great products and features in the
| pipeline, we want our customers to upgrade to our latest and
| greatest products when they're excited by what the new products
| offer, not because they feel forced to do so. That's the intent
| of the trade up program we launched for our loyal customers._
|
| _Thank you for being a Sonos customer. Thank you for taking
| the time to give us your feedback. I hope that you'll forgive
| our misstep, and let us earn back your trust. Without you,
| Sonos wouldn 't exist and we'll work harder than ever to earn
| your loyalty every single day._
|
| _If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to
| contact us. Sincerely, Patrick_
|
| _Patrick Spence CEO, Sonos_
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| Lennie Small CEO, Sonos
| WheelsAtLarge wrote:
| I get it. It's hard to maintain hardware forever but the current
| trend of making hardware obsolete is just wasteful. These
| companies need to find a business model for old hardware. I'm
| open to paying a maintenance fee that would give me critical
| updates after a certain point in time. Maybe 5%/yr of the
| original cost after 5 years.
|
| Sending working hardware to the dump is not a long term fix.
| cushychicken wrote:
| This comment makes me think you didn't read the linked article.
|
| No hardware is being made obsolete, or getting sent to the
| dump.
| WheelsAtLarge wrote:
| I guess I went too broad in my comment about this blog. They
| are saying that they will maintain them as much as possible.
| This means that the updates will eventually end and they will
| stop working. I have dumb speakers that are 10 years old that
| work great and will continue to work but Sonos will stop
| working because of a lack of software but they are still in
| working order. My point is that we need a way to conserve
| resources rather than sending them to the trash.
|
| It's not just Sonos. Hardware manufacturer's business model
| is to make their products obsolete so we replace them. And
| it's only going to get worse with the wave of IoT gadgets
| that are coming in the future. It can't work forever.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| >No hardware is being made obsolete, or getting sent to the
| dump.
|
| I assume this is in response to Sonos' program where they
| brick perfectly-usable devices (which then get sent to the
| dump) to prevent re-use after you take part in a trade-in
| program.
|
| https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191231/07584043658/sonos.
| ..
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| The link is dead for me but what I assumes it says is that
| they aren't instantly killing these products but they won't
| update them which means eventually the API on the other end
| will change and these devices won't work anymore. Speakers
| are a product that should in theory last an extremely long
| time. The surround sound system in my grandmas house is some
| bose system from at least 25 years ago and it still functions
| perfectly fine because it relies on no software updates or
| external APIs.
|
| Do you think these sonos speakers will still be fully
| functional in 20 years?
| Marsymars wrote:
| > Do you think these sonos speakers will still be fully
| functional in 20 years?
|
| I expect the ones with audio inputs ports will still be
| usable as speakers in 20 years.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Don't worry, they're RESPONSIBLE and SUSTAINABLE.
|
| https://www.sonos.com/en/sustainability
| lysium wrote:
| I get it if I wanted new features. I don't get it if I just
| want to stream music, the very reason why I bought a Sonos
| speaker in the first page. Threatening to just discontinue this
| service for no reason is just not cool.
|
| I see my mistake to have bought an all-in-one package instead
| of an external streaming device.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| It'd be nice if more hardware had like a "logic board upgrade"
| capability, but the business incentive just isn't there.
| Obviously most of the value in high end audio is the audio
| components, and those are probably not obsolete. If you buy a
| smart TV, most of the value is in the display panel which is
| probably not obsolete.
|
| But old processors, old software platforms, etc. tend to doom a
| lot of these types of hardware, and I'd love to just replace
| the "computer part" of them. But the only way I could see that
| making financial sense for these businesses who'd rather just
| sell you the whole thing again, is if there was some sort of
| financial penalty/tax for bricking hardware.
|
| (I am currently lamenting that my 2016 TV, only around three
| years old, can't get the CBS All Access app, even though it got
| Disney+. Apparently CBS and LG thinks only people who bought
| TVs since 2018 want to watch Picard.)
| dv_dt wrote:
| At least with the TV, you can likely just add an external
| device pretty easily. Though I would love a TV with a device
| bay that was designed to supply a third party module power
| and an HDMI port - fewer wires to route would be a selling
| feature for me..
| MisterTea wrote:
| If you open a modern TV it's just an lcd display with a
| small motherboard that has an Arm SoC with an integrated AV
| switcher and tuner built in. It's a crime that cant be
| replaced with something more useful.
| aqtrans wrote:
| That would be the perfect solution, even if the upgrade
| boards came at some kind of premium for those of us who
| aren't into yearly TV upgrades.
|
| For what it's worth regarding CBS All Access: If you're an
| Amazon Prime member, you can subscribe to the CBS All Access
| 'channel' in Prime Video, and use the Prime Video app to
| watch those shows.
|
| I'm in the same exact TV situation, had to find this
| workaround to catch Star Trek Discovery, really lame.
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| This reminds me of how my bathroom fan was designed. I bought
| a new house recently, and the old bathroom fan was covered in
| gunk, loud, and had an older light bulb socket. Fortunately
| Broan [1] designed this thing well. I could take the fan and
| light portion out of the metal box fairly easily, and replace
| it with a newer, updated unit that fit the existing metal box
| perfectly.
|
| This saved significant time installing the thing. I did not
| have to rewire it or reattach the exhaust. Sure, I did have
| to waste the old, defunct parts, but it's better than wasting
| the big metal box too.
|
| I think there's a lot of long term value in making semi-
| modular appliances. What if you could take out the logic
| board of one of these speakers and replace it with something
| more current? That saves the speaker itself, the mesh on top,
| and the entire enclosing.
|
| Trick is I don't know if most consumers would care / be savvy
| enough to do this. Laptops have been doing a semi-modular
| design for a while in 2005 - 2015, but no one really updated
| it - they just threw the entire laptop out and bought the
| latest and greatest. Makes me wonder why the same mentality
| doesn't apply to these Sonos speakers.
|
| [1]: https://www.broan.com/Bath-Vent-Fan/Fans-with-Lights
| Polylactic_acid wrote:
| Its just the next phase of capitalism. Once you have sold your
| product to the entire target market where do you expand from
| there? You have to remove the previous products so you can sell
| it again.
| slg wrote:
| The page isn't working for me so I can't confirm this, but the
| headline is so innocuous that it needing to exist at all probably
| shows a huge underlying problem. Is there some name for that
| phenomenon? Is it some relative of Betteridge's law?
|
| EDIT: I just realized this is the equivalent of the "asking
| questions already answered by my shirt" meme. The existence of
| this headline just causes people to ask the question why the
| headline needs to exist.
|
| [1] - https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/a-lot-of-questions-already-
| an...
| wlj wrote:
| I'd say your intuition is correct.
|
| The headline makes you think everything is back to normal, and
| that they've reversed course, but I can't actually see that
| much has meaningfully changed.
|
| It sounds like all your speakers will work after May, but if
| you have a mix of legacy and modern speakers, you'll be forced
| to split them into two totally separate systems.
| Angostura wrote:
| I'm not looking forward to June.
| 23B1 wrote:
| Solid response from a company that historically seemed deaf to
| customer feedback. This is a move in the right direction for
| Sonos - but I definitely will hold off on buying any new Sonos
| equipment until I see how they handle this.
| Hamuko wrote:
| The title initially made me believe this was about the devices
| that they purposefully bricked in order to sell new ones (at some
| discount). But apparently it's actually about all Sonos products
| that they didn't purposefully turn into waste.
| Kalium wrote:
| Sonos lets users choose to brick old devices in exchange for a
| discount. Ones that don't will no longer get updates past May.
|
| The way this has played out in social media has been weird.
| I've seen more than one person turn this into "Sonos is going
| to brick all my devices!". It's either the world's worst
| communication strategy at work or people deliberately
| conflating two parts of one message.
| sp332 wrote:
| _Ones that don 't will no longer get updates past May._
|
| It goes beyond that, because they won't update any devices on
| the same network as old devices either.
| https://arstechnica.com/information-
| technology/2020/01/sonos... In May they plan to have a way to
| segregate old devices onto a separate network, but they still
| won't work together with new ones.
| Kalium wrote:
| Having used and owned Sonos devices, this doesn't surprise
| me at all. The devices expect to work together in complex
| ways. Expecting new ones to correctly work together with
| old ones over the same network can be expected to entail
| pretty much all the work of supporting the old devices. New
| devices are now constrained by the networking hardware and
| protocols of the old ones... forever.
|
| Which is the whole thing Sonos is clearly trying to get
| away from. Supporting legacy devices forever is clearly
| untenable.
|
| With that said, I do see another angle they could have
| pursued. They could have led with the network segregation
| approach, making it clear that the legacy devices will
| still work perfectly with one another on their own network.
|
| Sonos could also have said that legacy devices may stop
| working as expected without warning after any future update
| that applies to current devices only. This strikes me as
| likely to work great until it comes down and then it blows
| up catastrophically when the update lands.
|
| Those are the best options I can see, but my vision is of
| course quite limited. Perhaps you have better ideas!
| pjc50 wrote:
| They were saying that new devices would not get updates
| either if networking with an old device.
|
| Really this is their fault for announcing that while the
| device bricking fiasco was still in play.
| Kalium wrote:
| In my eyes, they're clearly part of the same move to drop
| support for older devices. They probably should have
| unified the message, though.
| DevKoala wrote:
| The "smart" appliances sound so dumb in retrospect.
| RyanShook wrote:
| From the original blog post:
|
| "We've now come to a point where some of the oldest products have
| been stretched to their technical limits in terms of memory and
| processing power,"
|
| Since when does playing back music files stretch the limits of
| what these speakers were designed to do? I have invested pretty
| heavily in Sonos but now realize I would have been better off
| connecting an Airplay adapter to a traditional sound system...
| mrich wrote:
| How about enacting a law that you either need to keep your
| hardware running via software updates, or you need to open-source
| all the software for others to keep doing so the moment you cease
| support. Would prevent a lot of waste.
| richardthered wrote:
| Most people don't want to manually update code and patch their
| speakers. They want to push a button, and get music. Not run a
| local IT department
| worldsayshi wrote:
| Open source doesn't need to be more complicated. There are
| several open source projects with majority of users with only
| consumer mindset. VLC comes to mind.
|
| The original producers of the software could be unhelpful
| even if they comply though. That's another story.
| misnome wrote:
| Right, people don't want to manually patch their speakers,
| but people probably don't want to throw them out after a few
| years either.
|
| In any case, presumably in this proposed scenario secondary
| service industries would pop up to do this for them/offer
| ongoing alternatives. Much like computer maintenance and
| repair.
| [deleted]
| worldsayshi wrote:
| I think this is one example among many similar that needs to
| happen. Though there's tremendous inertia for ideas like this.
| The people who needs to understand or care probably doesn't.
| zweep wrote:
| I feel like all of this IoT hardware should be rented rather than
| bought. If your piece of crap can suddenly stop working, I don't
| want to own it. Rent it to me and take it back when it's useless.
| JohnFen wrote:
| If my piece of crap can suddenly stop working, then I don't
| want it even on a rental basis.
|
| This is why the direction that the IoT market has decided to
| take things makes any of that stuff completely unacceptable to
| me. None of it can be trusted -- it is more likely than not
| spying on you, the way it works can change at any moment
| without notice, including ceasing to function.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| No way. I don't want to rent a device, it's a principle that's
| flawed. Maybe there are advantages to such but the
| disadvantages outweigh every time.
|
| Take a car for example. You can now lease the latest and
| greatest car, but you don't own that car, its not your asset.
| If your in dire straits; where if you need to sell, you cannot,
| you don't own it, it's not yours to sell.
|
| Not forgetting that the vendor then decides the price you pay.
| "Cool, due to climate change tax, we are increasing your
| payment". All you can do is pay the demand or live without a
| car which if you need to commute, your screwed.
|
| What you might own may be junk, it still has a value. When you
| lease, you get none of all that.
| berbec wrote:
| Sadly, most hardware being rented and not bought is already
| close to the truth.
| adamfeldman wrote:
| Found this for further context -- January 21 blog post:
|
| https://blog.sonos.com/en/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy...
| dickeytk wrote:
| To focus on one product: the original play:5 came out Nov 2009
| (which is impacted here). The replacement came out in Sep 2015.
|
| For a company that builds their brand loyalty on keeping existing
| customers happy with their purchases (via OTA updates and slow
| replacement frequency), 4.5 years isn't long enough in my opinion
| --hopefully there weren't a ton of play:5 buyers in that final
| year. Forever isn't reasonable either of course with how heavily
| cloud based they are. I think it should be closer to 10.
|
| It's a little hard to imagine 2010 devices keeping up in 2020,
| but I'm sure that 2030 will be kinder to 2020 hardware. In the
| same way a 1995 laptop is far less capable than a 2005 compared
| to 2015. I think they could make that commitment.
|
| I give Sonos a longer time I would others because they justify
| their price tag based on how unlikely you are to have to replace
| it. Rather--that's how I justified all of mine.
|
| And they should be up front with what that duration will be when
| you buy it.
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