[HN Gopher] The outsize influence of middle-school friends
___________________________________________________________________
The outsize influence of middle-school friends
Author : rainhacker
Score : 152 points
Date : 2020-02-13 05:41 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theatlantic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theatlantic.com)
| ineedasername wrote:
| Telling your child "you'll make new friends" seems to be about
| the least helpful and least sensitive thing you could say. As
| though friendships were some fungible substance of social
| interaction, none of any more value or special quality than
| another.
|
| Though I do wonder if the trauma of severed relationships is
| helped these days by social media, cell phones, video chat, etc.
| When I was growing up, even long distance phone calls were too
| much money for regular use to stay in touch. Moving away, or
| having a friend move away, was for all practical purposes similar
| to losing a friend to death. There was a very good chance you'd
| never see them again.
| ultrasounder wrote:
| My son who is on the autism spectrum always had difficulties
| making friends at school. Because, of sustained bullying in 6th
| grade we have kept him home and started home schooling. He loves
| the flexibility to learn anything he wants, and the lack of
| social anxiety. BUT, off late he has started interacting more
| with our neighborhood kids more and he is really starting to
| enjoy their company.They do a lot of outdoors things and they
| actually make things. SO, it does seem like kids(esp boys) tend
| to make more meaningful relationships right around middle school
| some of which tend to last a long time at least until they go
| separate ways after high-school. Just my own experience with my
| son.
| smoyer wrote:
| Lunch in middle school was absolutely the worst part of my life
| ... reading this article, I'm amazed that I didn't grow up to be
| a serial-killer. My family also relocated for my eighth-grade
| year and, returning in ninth grade was especially horrible. I
| like like the tag-line of the Mortified podcast - "We are freaks,
| we are fragile ... and we all survived". Now I'm wondering how
| many of my misfit acquaintances didn't actually survive.
| nck4222 wrote:
| Tangentially related to this article, but moving/uprooting
| children can have fairly large negative consequences that affect
| them the rest of their lives.
|
| Here's one article [1] that found:
|
| "Elevated risks were observed for all examined outcomes, with
| excess risk seen among those exposed to multiple versus single
| relocations in a year. Risks grew incrementally with increasing
| age of exposure to mobility"
|
| Examined outcomes consisted of "attempted suicide, violent
| criminality, psychiatric illness, substance misuse, and natural
| and unnatural deaths."
|
| There are many more studies if you search for them that show a
| range of affects including worse academic performance and one I
| found that included a higher rate of hospitalization in kids who
| moved (although the cause was unclear).
|
| It's a traumatic event.
|
| [1] -
| https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(16)30118-0/pdf
|
| [2] - http://theconversation.com/moving-home-can-affect-your-
| child...
| jobseeker990 wrote:
| How do they rule out the correlation that families that move a
| lot might not be as stable in general?
| wufufufu wrote:
| Shhh... let's just continue to self-diagnose traumatic
| childhoods when there are many potential confounding
| variables
| yhoiseth wrote:
| In the part about limitations, the linked paper says
|
| > Although several important confounders were adjusted for,
| the observed independent associations may nonetheless have
| been prone to residual confounding. This is because many
| salient adverse childhood experiences, including most
| instances of abuse and neglect, are not routinely registered.
| The underlying reasons for residential change, such as family
| dissolution, were also unknown. Furthermore, socio-economic
| trajectories among the cohort members beyond their 15th
| birthdays, which could have mediated the observed
| associations, were not examined. Selection of potential
| confounders was essentially restricted according to their
| availability, which is a common limitation of many studies
| conducted using administrative registers. An unknown degree
| of reverse causality bias may also have been present. Earlier
| unregistered problematic behaviors among older children and
| adolescents may have motivated some families to relocate to
| start afresh. However, it seems unlikely that these hidden
| biases could wholly explain the strong links observed between
| residential mobility in early/mid-adolescence and subsequent
| adverse outcomes. Finally, the findings may not apply
| universally beyond Denmark, although it seems likely that
| they are relevant to other western societies with similar
| drivers of residential mobility.
| [deleted]
| dmos62 wrote:
| Personal experience and reading points to the opposite
| conclusion. Trivia: amongst successful actors a
| disproportionate number of them had parents who had jobs that
| caused the family to move around a lot (traveling salesmen and
| the like). Out of the people I've met, those who were moving
| around a lot as kids had a different quality in my eyes. They
| also often continued moving around in later life. When you grow
| up in a single environment you find it harder to differentiate
| what is a feature of this local culture, and what is a feature
| of the "wider world", because you're stuck with only one data
| point.
| alrs wrote:
| Successful actors are lottery winners.
|
| Millions of people are affected by problems in childhood.
| There are 500 people, tops, on the planet who have monetized
| the resulting personality disorder into some kind of mass-
| media fame.
| dmos62 wrote:
| Why do you think there are only 500? I'm not challenging
| the observation, just curious about the casaulity you see.
| reaperducer wrote:
| A lot of the more successful, worldly people I know were
| "army brats" who moved around a lot. It gave them a different
| view of the world and a greater sense of independence and the
| need to do things for one's self.
| ptero wrote:
| This might not be a fair comparison. One of the risks of
| moving during vulnerable age is being seen as an outsider
| and excluded from groups at every new place. But army brats
| tend to cluster as parents get deployed to a large base,
| and having other somewhat friendly kids in a similar state
| can be a big help with avoiding exclusion.
| champagneben wrote:
| Johnny Depp came to my mind as well reading that. Perhaps
| it's not such an opposite conclusion, though? I don't want to
| suggest most actors have personal problems, but having
| listened to a lot of the more successful ones it seems like
| there's often a void that's yearning to be filled by fame and
| adulation.
| nck4222 wrote:
| Anecdotes about personal experience, people you've met, and
| unsourced trivia don't disprove studies about populations as
| a whole.
|
| Celebrities may have a much higher rate of suicide (2.9%) vs
| the general population (.013% in the US): https://www.researc
| hgate.net/publication/13524696_Suicide_in...
|
| That doesn't seem like the opposite conclusion to me.
|
| I wouldn't be surprised to find out that moving could
| possibly give you skills, deficiencies, and desires that make
| it more likely you become an actor either, but that seems
| like a little more like speculation at this point.
| vumgl wrote:
| Depression is common among highly successful and/or popular
| figures. I read that depression was common among astronauts
| after they completed their missions. Virtually nothing that
| they (can) do later in life compares with the scope of
| their past missions, and that leads to depression or worse.
| These days, part of the astronaut training includes
| planning for their post-mission goals.
| dmos62 wrote:
| Don't discount anecdotes. World views, even if found to be
| supported by studies, are often rationalizations of inner
| state.
| zelly wrote:
| Ah yes another excuse to blame others, particularly your
| parents, for your problems. What would we do without the field
| of Psychology (tm) and the wonderful results of plugging and
| chugging high school stats formulas.
| wonjohnchoi wrote:
| Your comment suggests that you were fortunate enough not to
| experience frequent moves and social issues during your
| childhood. At the same time, you seem to lack empathy towards
| others' pain. I am sorry for people around you.
| davidw wrote:
| Thanks for those! It just so happens we're deciding right now
| whether to move our daughter into a school with a better TAG
| program, but it'd mean starting 7th grade in a new school.
| nck4222 wrote:
| I don't mean to suggest that moving is never the right
| decision, but yes those results personally give me pause in
| whether it'd a good idea to move. Also it seems in general
| more thought is needed around what can be done to help kids
| with the transition when moving.
| sct202 wrote:
| Are TAG programs a big thing in middle school? At the schools
| I went to TAG programs in elementary school automatically
| tracked you into the honors classes in middle school and then
| high school, but a lot of kids who weren't in TAG funneled
| into honors any way.
| davidw wrote:
| When I went to school, they were an elementary school
| thing. Apparently they go through middle school now; after
| that high school has a enough tracks to not need it, I
| guess. AP classes and such.
| californical wrote:
| How does your daughter feel about it? It's probably good to
| involve her in the conversation too
| davidw wrote:
| 'We' includes her, of course.
| plughs wrote:
| I put on a happy face when my parents asked if I wanted
| to move away in the 6th grade. I was a 'good kid' and
| didn't want to say no. But I didn't want to move, and
| moving was a complete wreck emotionally for me.
|
| So be cautious. How likely is she to say 'no' if she
| knows that you want her to say 'yes'?
| davidw wrote:
| Heh, not a risk in this case.
| downerending wrote:
| This is a really hard call. My parents moved to a different
| district at about that time, and it quite beneficial overall
| for me. But, I wasn't really leaving many friends behind, so
| that was less of a question.
|
| As an adult, I somewhat accidentally ended up moving step-
| kids (a bit older), and I deeply regret it. They had far
| better educational/career opportunities in the new place, but
| I think they probably would have ended up happier hanging out
| with their goofball/stoner friends for a few more years.
| Tyr42 wrote:
| I moved to a better school for grade 7, and it really helped
| me, but I wasn't having a great time at the old one.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| I would fall into the category of kids who did not do well with
| this. I was moved a double-digit number of times when I was in
| single digits of age. Eventually, my parents thought to take me
| to a psychologist to solve the puzzling issue of why I wasn't
| making friends. The notes I requested from the psychologist
| decades later included a line from me that went something to
| the effect of that I didn't get to enjoy having friends, I just
| got to miss them.
|
| I absolutely missed some social developmental windows, somewhat
| like the kittens who, never exposed to horizontal lines during
| a critical point in the Blakemore and Cooper experiment, were
| unable to perceive them later on. Nothing I have been able to
| do in terms of reading, groups, exercises, and the like has
| been able to grant me the easy camaraderie that comes readily
| to others. Instead I am typically watchful and quiet, on the
| periphery of any group. Carnegie, Toastmasters, and all of the
| glad-handing can provide at best a kind of thin simulation that
| never takes root for me. I have faked it and been unable to
| make it, leaving me with a somewhat guilty fear that any charm
| I may have would be greasily like that of any garden variety
| psychopath.
|
| Perhaps the most "positive" thing to come out of it would be
| near-schizoid levels of self-reliance and an ability to acquire
| local accents to better fit in.
|
| Some kids get over it, some ... do not.
| 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 wrote:
| Similar experience: a different elementary school for each
| grade. It's hard to exactly describe the impact it's had on
| me, but let's just say I have no problem letting go of
| friendships. I was an introvert all throughout school, making
| only a handful of friends.
|
| Things finally changed for me in college, joining a campus
| youth group which functioned more like a spiritual
| fraternity. I was able to finally create life-long bonds with
| people. Weirdest of all was I actually became an extrovert!
|
| Now I have very little problems making friends. Generally I
| can chat up strangers. I do have to work very hard to
| _maintain_ friendships, but it 's something I work very hard
| at.
| throwawayhhakdl wrote:
| That's interesting. I switched ~4 times in the first 5
| grades. I've never really considered whether it affected me
| much, but have been highly self aware that I don't really
| care about letting go of people. I have a vivid memory of
| yearbook signing in high school, and just getting tired of
| it, and when people wanted me to write a personalized
| message, I just said... eh, and declined to do so.
|
| I wouldn't have thought this was disruptive, but I also
| recall manually learning how social behaviors work in
| 11-12th grade and had always assumed I was just a bit of an
| aspie
| nck4222 wrote:
| >something to the effect of that I didn't get to enjoy having
| friends, I just got to miss them.
|
| >I am typically watchful and quiet, on the periphery of any
| group.
|
| >I have faked it and been unable to make it
|
| I know other people who moved several times as kids, and
| these are very common sentiments among them (and many other
| people as well, who didn't move).
|
| I don't have much else to say, other than you're not alone
| and I hope you find peace with this.
| heartbeats wrote:
| Why would you find peace with being stunted and missing out
| on major parts of life? To be blunt, it doesn't sound like
| something to be enthusiastic about.
| mstromb wrote:
| Would being angry about it make anything better? Could it
| restore the missing parts, or go back in time and un-
| stunt a person?
|
| Being at peace with something is not the same thing as
| being happy about it.
| kossae wrote:
| Because the alternative is living your life in misery due
| to your past, constantly dwelling on something you can't
| change. People can overcome things to the best of their
| abilities, and it's normally good advice to at least try.
| downerending wrote:
| "But there is also a dark side to the social world of middle
| school, as anyone who has been through it will remember. Sixth
| graders who do not have friends are at risk of anxiety,
| depression, and low self-esteem. About 12 percent of the 6,000
| sixth graders in Juvonen's study were not named as a friend by
| anyone else. They had no one to sit with at lunch and no one to
| stick up for them when bullied."
|
| Very relate-able, unfortunately. In many ways, it set the tone
| for my life.
| paulddraper wrote:
| Quite frankly, middle school sucks.
|
| I don't know of anyone who liked that time.
|
| Friendships are more mature than in elementary school, and no
| one has gained confidence enough to find their own place in the
| world.
| reaperducer wrote:
| This is going to be perhaps the least popular comment I've ever
| made on HN, but I will relate to you the advice my parents gave
| me when I was a socially awkward, introverted, bullied middle-
| schooler:
|
| Dad: Suck it up. Mom: Get over it.
|
| Being bullied in school doesn't mean you have to be bullied for
| life. As a kid, things can be stacked against you. You're
| surrounded by people who are older, stronger, more powerful,
| and more capable than you. But you don't have to be bullied as
| an adult if you don't allow it to happen. Adulthood is a much
| more even playing field than childhood. You have resources (HR
| department, change jobs, change neighborhoods, police, social
| services, lawyers, etc...)
|
| I know there are people who as adults are bullied. I know some
| of them. But in every case I've seen they've allowed a history
| of bullying to make them believe that they are powerless to
| change their circumstances. They're not. They choose to remain
| in that position because it's familiar, and change and
| confrontation are scary. But sometimes you've got to suck it
| up, act like an adult, and do adult things. And that sometimes
| means standing up for yourself.
| fullshark wrote:
| Doesn't "suck it up" mean to bear it and ignore it? That
| seems at odds with the rest of your post's advice which is to
| stand up for yourself.
| reaperducer wrote:
| No, suck it up means find a way to cope, which can mean
| suffer through it or make changes.
| compiler-guy wrote:
| The article explains the danger of this approach, with
| reasonable science. It seems to have worked in your case but
| is more risky than other strategies.
| kbutler wrote:
| I didn't see that in the article. Maybe we're interpreting
| it differently?
|
| It is critical for adolescents to learn to deal with hard
| things and to approach problems in positive ways. Love the
| martial arts training ididntdothis mentioned - increase the
| child's ability and confidence, then even without using the
| martial skills, the bullying stopped.
| Ididntdothis wrote:
| For me bullying stopped when I started martial arts. I still
| wasn't popular but people knew they shouldn't mess with me (I
| never had to fight but the bullies knew I could) and left me
| alone. If I had kids I would definitely try to get them into
| jiu Jitsu class or similar.
|
| This physical confidence still carries me until today even in
| professional circumstances.
| aguyfromnb wrote:
| > _For me bullying stopped when I started martial arts._
|
| This is so true. At the end of the day, we are primal
| animals, and _knowing_ that you can physically dominate (or
| can be physically dominated) has a huge influence in
| personal conflict. Not only that, martial arts are great
| exercise, which is one less thing you can be bullied about.
|
| It's obviously not a bullying "cure-all", but it helps.
| downerending wrote:
| I think this is good advice, though it never would have
| occurred to my parents (or me).
|
| Emotional bullying is a different problem. If I could
| advise my younger self, it'd be that when the line is
| crossed, you have to lay down the law: _This stops, or I 'm
| out of here._ And put on your adult hat and follow through.
| plughs wrote:
| "Hello dear, how was work?"
|
| "Oh you know, some of my larger coworkers pushed me down to
| the floor and told me how much they hated me. But I sucked it
| up"
|
| "That's great, get over it!"
|
| "I will - until tomorrow, of course, when it will happen
| again."
|
| "Just keep sucking it up and getting over it and it will all
| turn out fine!"
|
| I don't know how it is we think children should be able to
| deal with things that would be unthinkably intolerable for
| adults.
| paulddraper wrote:
| Compare shoving at age 2, age 12, and age 22.
|
| What makes these situations different is:
|
| A. Maturity. We expect developmental difference and if they
| don't happen, it indicates a problem. Normal but
| undesirable behavior at age 2 would sociopathic if done at
| age 22. Toddlers don't get arrested if they bite someone,
| while adults do; I would claim that is justifiable.
|
| B. Destructive potential. Mature people are faster,
| stronger, and smarter; a bar brawl has a greater chance for
| broken bones, concussions, etc. than a playground fight.
|
| ---
|
| That said, there are things in relationships you have to
| suck up and get over at work; they are different than for a
| middle schooler though.
| [deleted]
| heartbeats wrote:
| It doesn't seem as if the first reply to the top comment
| agrees with you.
| rpiguy wrote:
| I think it depends on the severity and nature of the
| bullying, the personality of the child in question, and the
| parents can be gentler in delivering the message.
|
| On the whole I agree with you. My parents were similarly
| tough on me (except the one time I was bullied by a teacher,
| as they recognized the difference between annoying peers and
| someone abusing their authority and I certainly appreciated
| it) - however, they were not as tough on my siblings and more
| protective of them because they had very different
| personalities and it would have affected them more than it
| did me.
| mjfl wrote:
| This is the most shit-tier advice I've ever seen posted on
| Hacker News, and I've seen a lot. Basically you are implying
| "fuck you for being bullied, don't come to me for advice or
| sympathy." And you are their parent. Isn't this how pent up
| rage develops? Are you trying to turn your child into a
| school shooter?
| curyous wrote:
| Sometimes as an adult you need to suck it up and provide for
| your family, working in a small industry, at a small
| business, getting bullied at work every day because unless
| you retrain, there are no their options.
| downerending wrote:
| I've been in a similar situation, and it does truly suck.
| Things can be changed, but it can take quite a while and be
| rather painful.
|
| One thing that's helped me some is the realization that I
| can simply walk away from almost anything. Kids are the
| primary exception, and I think as a parent or guardian, you
| have a deep duty to suffer whatever you must to try to give
| them a good start in life.
| reaperducer wrote:
| You are correct. I've been there. But these circumstances
| don't last forever. Life is constantly changing. Sometimes
| you can make the change. Sometimes you just have to wait.
| downerending wrote:
| Reasonable. Although I have been bullied some, it was really
| the overall quote that spoke to me.
|
| Everyone "wakes up" early in life and starts to realize the
| cards they've been dealt. It would be really nice if there
| were a lot of thoughtful adults around to help them to adapt
| to that, but the world just isn't like that. Some things can
| be improved, but in the end, as the ancients knew, life _is_
| ultimately suffering and sorrow.
| greedo wrote:
| Your experiences don't translate well to anyone I've know who
| was bullied. I was bullied in junior high. I was told to
| stand up to the bullies, to defend myself. I was 5'6",
| 125lbs. The bullies (three of them) were all 50lbs heavier
| than me, and were on the football team. I stood up to them
| once. Kicked one in the balls. The other two, beat my ass and
| held me down til the third recovered; he beat on me for a
| good ten minutes. This went on for several years until they
| got bored with me and discovered girls.
|
| Sucking it up and getting over it? Yeah, I sucked it up. But
| you don't get over something like that. At my current job, my
| boss is a type A manager who encourages "competition." I have
| a family to finish raising, so yes, I'm powerless to change
| my circumstances. I suck it up everyday for the paycheck,
| knowing that my kids are fed, my mortgage paid, and my
| retirement is being funded.
|
| But to blithely state that people should suck it up and get
| over it minimizes the cost of that type of treatment. I have
| few friends, I'm incredibly cynical, and I'm probably a bad
| coworker since I have a sense of snark that I frequently
| voice.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| > Adulthood is a much more even playing field than childhood.
| You have resources (
|
| > HR department,
|
| There to protect the company, not you and definitely not to
| admit any kind of abuse because that is a liability
|
| > change jobs
|
| Looks very bad on your resume if done after a short period of
| time or frequently
|
| >change neighborhoods
|
| Makes you look shady and like you are dodging responsibility.
| Ties with the previous point.
|
| > police
|
| Comprised by mostly ex-bulies. I'm sure that will go well.
|
| > social services
|
| Here you face real repercussions for what will be seen as you
| not accepting your lot in life.
|
| > lawyers, etc...)
|
| As long as you have money...
|
| > And that sometimes means standing up for yourself.
|
| Remember: Appeasement never works.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _> HR department, There to protect the company, not you and
| definitely not to admit any kind of abuse because that is a
| liability_
|
| If this was 1983, I might agree with you. But these days
| the vast majority of HR departments are there to protect
| the company from legal action brought by an unhappy
| employee or government agency acting on that employee's
| behalf.
|
| _> change jobs Looks very bad on your resume if done after
| a short period of time or frequently_
|
| Depends on your industry. In some industries, it's seen as
| climbing the ladder of success and that your skills are in
| demand.
|
| _> change neighborhoods Makes you look shady and like you
| are dodging responsibility._
|
| I have no idea where this comes from. Maybe you're from a
| small European town? I've seen estimates that 30% of
| Americans move each year. I've lived in almost two dozen
| homes in 15 cities in a dozen states in my life. Everywhere
| from small towns under 3,000 to New York City. The longest
| I've ever lived anywhere is four years. Most often, I would
| move each year. I never heard anything along those lines
| from landlords, neighbors, or employers. I moved just a few
| months ago and all the landlord cared about was whether I'd
| filed for bankruptcy in the last 18 months, if I'd been
| evicted in the last four years, and the size of my
| paycheck.
|
| _> police Comprised by mostly ex-bulies. I 'm sure that
| will go well._
|
| Now you're just grasping at straws. But it's OK, I
| understand. People who are being bullied will grasp on to
| any excuse they can to keep themselves from changing their
| lives. It's normal. But you have to understand the
| difference between _reasons_ and _excuses,_ and how making
| excuses for your situation in life can prevent change.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| >Now you're just making things up. But it's OK, I
| understand. People who are being bullied will grasp on to
| any excuse they can to keep themselves from changing
| their lives
|
| Nice ad-hominem. I'm not being bullied but I've seen many
| of these scenarios playing out in real life.
|
| Your victim blaming is now here in full display for
| anyone to see.
| JDiculous wrote:
| He didn't mention bullying actually, he was just referring to
| not having friends due to "anxiety, depression, and low self-
| esteem".
|
| I can relate. I wasn't bullied in middle school, but I had no
| social skills and no confidence, so I didn't really have many
| friends. Telling a kid like that to suck it up obviously
| doesn't change anything. I do however agree though in the
| context of being bullied.
| admiral33 wrote:
| Learning to stand up for yourself is more than "Suck it up".
| I think your comment is in good faith, because sucking it up
| is the correct response... for someone that is able to do it.
| But before then a change of mindset is required, and that can
| be a large undertaking for some people.
|
| What that helped me: - Fitness (starting with _simple_ yoga
| to learn appreciation for my body, then progressing with
| weights) - Stoicism, Letters from a Stoic Seneca, Meditations
| Marcus Aurelius - Committing to memory basic social skills
| and nuances, The Charisma Myth - Hypnosis and self
| affirmations
|
| Also I think I prefer "Onward" rather than "Suck it up". If
| you have any resources that helped you, particularly in
| social skills, I am always looking for more resources.
| JackFr wrote:
| It's sounds like a cop out, but everyone's experience is
| different. Being bullied in middle school can be vastly
| different experience if your home life is pleasant and
| supportive vs. unpleasant or unstable, if you're
| academically gifted vs. prone to struggling academically,
| if the school is well staffed and safe vs. otherwise.
|
| I grew up in a loving home and attended good public schools
| in a fairly upper middle class school district. Both my
| brother and sister were subject to some serious bullying,
| and there is no question that it made their school life
| miserable for a time, but it was not the formative episode
| of their youths.
|
| On the other hand, its not hard to see in a worse situation
| how easily it could be.
| dlivingston wrote:
| I'm sorry to hear that. I was relatively well-liked in my
| school and college years, yet as an adult it has been very,
| very difficult to make friends.
| tayo42 wrote:
| > yet as an adult it has been very, very difficult to make
| friends.
|
| Isn't this a common experience for most people now. I feel
| like I frequently articles highlighting loneliness in adults.
| I've had the same experience.
| chubot wrote:
| I think it's very common, but in my experience living the
| city helps a lot (San Francisco in my case, compared to say
| the south bay).
|
| There's a selection effect where people who live in dense
| areas are more open to meeting new people. (There's also a
| culture of drinking which I'm mostly over, but it's still a
| net positive IMO.)
| downerending wrote:
| Thanks. Must have been nice, but I suppose the cost was
| experiencing the change to the way things are as an adult
| (which I think is a very common experience). In my case, I've
| long since adapted to a near-solitary existence, and I'd say
| it doesn't particularly bother me anymore.
| dlivingston wrote:
| Indeed, that may very well be true. Ironic, isn't it, that
| we are more connected than ever and yet lonelier than ever.
|
| Here's an idea for a founder looking for a startup: a
| Tinder-esque platform for meeting and making friends with
| similar interests. I'm sure this has been done before but
| certainly hasn't become mainstream.
| bagacrap wrote:
| There are ways to get out of this rut. I suggest therapy and/or
| therapeutic brain drugs.
| kstenerud wrote:
| "Friendships take place in this larger context where there's a
| status hierarchy," she told me. "Kids know very well which kinds
| of kids are friends with one another and where they stand in that
| overall status hierarchy."
|
| Huh. I never knew such a thing existed.
| WhompingWindows wrote:
| Even monkeys and primates have it. Humans definitely have it,
| there are cliques, in-groups, out-groups, trying to get into
| various groups...it's obviously a culture at each school, but
| since it's observed in monkeys and primates, we know it's
| somewhat natural for humans.
| downerending wrote:
| That's a very insighful comment. One of my ex's (who was
| otherwise a rather terrible person) absolutely poured herself
| into making sure that her daughters were well-liked and did
| well in this game. I think it's one of the best things she's
| done.
| throwawayhhakdl wrote:
| I had a male friend with a mother that did that. As a child I
| didn't recognize it, but as it was explained to me in
| adulthood, the reason he played guitar, got quarterback
| lessons, and started to hang out in groups with cooler kids
| (or at least larger and larger groups of kids) was because
| his mother was orchestrating the whole thing to make him more
| popular.
|
| I'm pretty sure that put enormous pressure on him and filled
| him with anxieties. Last I heard he dropped out of undergrad,
| and his sisters all look like they have eating disorders.
|
| I wouldn't try to touch my kid's social status with a ten
| foot pole, aside from perhaps ensuring they have at least an
| average level of wealth relative to their peers. If anything
| popularity needs to be downplayed
| sjg007 wrote:
| Happened to me. My best friend went to the private school and I
| had to go to public school. It definitely impacted my grades. I
| had asked my parents to send me to the private school too but it
| wasn't in the cards. And by best friend I mean someone who was a
| peer with similar work ethic and intelligence so we learnt from
| each other. That was traumatic. I had made that friend after
| moving to a different state in the 5th grade. I remember leaving
| my friends as being somewhat traumatic but not as traumatic as
| the different high school thing. I sort of owe my career to him
| and his family since they were software entrepreneurs in the 90s.
| riazrizvi wrote:
| So by Middle School, your social persona has ripened and you
| spend more effort on socializing than non-social play. And
| because of the bias we give first impressions, we form the
| strongest opinion of how we fit in socially during Middle School.
|
| Makes sense from personal experience. I went into Middle School
| with some asocial traits, which ultimately lead to very painful
| 'friend' betrayals... and the next 40 years I spent minimizing
| the importance of friends.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| > and the next 40 years I spent minimizing the importance of
| friends.
|
| Do you regret that now?
| [deleted]
| beat wrote:
| My middle school years were pretty miserable due to family drama
| stuff. I'm only in touch with two friends from that era (via FB).
| I contrast this to my kids, who went to a really great charter
| school from grades 7-12. Their core social groups are still made
| of their junior high and high school friends - my daughter (age
| 25) was just an attendant for one of those friends' weddings, and
| another one of their jr high friends was also an attendant. For
| someone in their mid-20s to have a whole social network of
| friends they've known half their life amazes me.
| iovrthoughtthis wrote:
| Same boat for me. Solidarity.
| compiler-guy wrote:
| "I never had any friends later on like the ones I had when I was
| 12 - Jesus, did you?" --Stephen King in his short-story "The
| Body" (which became _Stand by Me_ the movie.)
|
| Totally relate to that.
| plughs wrote:
| Relating to the article, that quote always makes me sad. I
| moved at 12, I didn't have friends. I feel like I missed
| something I can never get back.
| greedo wrote:
| Growing up I had problems fitting in and also experienced
| this sense of loss; not having the same shared experiences as
| people around me. I wonder now how other kids who "didn't fit
| in" for whatever reason (orientation, intelligence, economic
| status) feel? Or is everyone alienated to some extent, and
| just hides it?
| the_af wrote:
| As an aside, I consider this a strength of Stephen King's best
| stories. The boys, their friendship and the kid-logic they
| employ in stories like The Body and It. By the time he wrote
| Dreamcatcher it had become a little hackneyed, but still.
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