[HN Gopher] Burnoutindex.org
___________________________________________________________________
Burnoutindex.org
Author : hernantz
Score : 300 points
Date : 2020-02-13 18:14 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (burnoutindex.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (burnoutindex.org)
| cagenut wrote:
| I have a working theory that basically all "devops engineer" jobs
| of the last 5ish years are more or less automatic/happens-by-
| default burnout traps. Hard to tell how much is that and how much
| is just we're all sliding into middle age, but man I have yet to
| see one that wasn't a steadily ratcheting wrench of pressure to
| keep all the old things running while doing the next new thing
| every month.
| pbrb wrote:
| Not to mention the ever increasing stack of tools and tech you
| need to keep up with.
| jlv2 wrote:
| My burnout index is 5/6. No surprise there.
|
| I'm more interested in why the site reloads the top portion of
| the page after the initial load. You can tell, because the top
| image changes from the person sitting on the left side of the
| table a flipped one where they are on the right side of the
| table.
|
| left
| https://images.ctfassets.net/z2g90m75le4q/5yT1ytvHM0WLTih13Y...
|
| right
| https://images.ctfassets.net/z2g90m75le4q/7kam7578mAMnVlgQTP...
| llsf wrote:
| hear you... got 5/6 and was thinking about improving the number
| of clicks on that questionnaire. Sigh... How did I get there?
| brailsafe wrote:
| I feel like one of the worst things you can do when you burnout
| or are on the way to burning out, is to get a new job. Imo,
| swapping in stuff where stuff wasn't good before is just a way to
| divert your attention in a way that doesn't let you redevelop
| your value system in a way that you really need to. Just stop for
| a while. Maybe a long while. Then see what you want to do.
| redisman wrote:
| Some workplaces are really bad though. I've had one that was
| complete insanity with bosses yelling etc. Better to get out
| sometimes.
| geoffbp wrote:
| My wife has helped me to put things in place to prevent burnout,
| mostly little things outside of work
| pinopinopino wrote:
| I am never sure about what a burnout really is. It is not in the
| DSM yet, but that doesn't really say anything. It shares a lot of
| properties with depression. Weird stuff.
|
| Test is bogus of course. With nine questiI got a high risk,
| because I scored a bit high on cynicism. But hey, I work in the
| advertisement business. I am not kidding myself that I add any
| value to this world at all.
| rezeroed wrote:
| Good site. This frog is boiled. I'll be returning periodically.
| maxk42 wrote:
| This seems to rank nearly everyone as burned-out. Reeks of
| agenda.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| And/or (cynical view), our industry in such a state that nearly
| everyone IS burned out.
| maxk42 wrote:
| No, I mean it literally ranks nearly everyone as burned out.
| As an experiment I chose the second-to-lowest burnout score
| for every question but one (for which I chose the lowest
| score). My risk of burnout was rated as high.
|
| That's ridiculous for answers that by any objective measure
| would be great.
| SkyBelow wrote:
| It would be possible with some questions that the answer
| between 0 to 1 is more meaningful than the answer between 1
| and 10. For example, "How many tires have you slashed?"
|
| 0 to 1 is much more of a jump than 1 to 10. If this was
| being used to rank some underlying characteristic, 0 would
| be low while 1-10 would be high.
|
| Now, does that apply to these questions? I don't think so.
| Theoretically I can see valid cases where answering
| anything above 0 goes straight from low to high.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| > _I mean it literally ranks nearly everyone as burned
| out._
|
| Yes, got that. My point is, it's exactly what you would
| expect IF nearly everyone ACTUALLY IS burned out.
|
| Not that I'm seriously saying they are, just pointing out
| that you are making that assumption, mainly as a way of
| saying maybe software is a profession with a relatively
| high burnout rate.
| [deleted]
| swalsh wrote:
| I burnt out several years ago, I was way past the point of return
| before I realized. I ended up changing jobs, and took a few
| vacations... even then recovery was slow. After that I returned
| pretty strong. Since then there have been a few times I
| recognized it happening again, but being cognizant of the signs
| goes a long ways towards preventing it.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| Same thing. I've never held a job longer then two years. Not
| because of incapable of the work but because I get so burnt I
| shoot myself in a foot and end up "dismissed" "fired"
| "redundant".
|
| I've been off work for three months now with little-to no
| money. For the past three months and I've only just felt myself
| get back on track. However I start work again next week and I
| know the novelty of the new job will tick well, but when that
| wears off.. I will start to burn out again.
|
| It's not stress, I can handle that fine. Its just so stale and
| no freedom.
|
| I want to run another operating system other than "CentOS".
| Screw it, lets run OpenBSD for routing instead of $$$
| DellForce9 where you have to pay $$$ to enable additional
| switch ports. But no, it's all got to be kept enterprise. I'm
| bored of it as a whole.
| jophde wrote:
| Mostly just getting tired of not having a quiet place to work and
| needing to grind leetcode so that I don't have to worry about
| being un-hirerable in my free time. Besides that I generally like
| being an SWE. I'm also pretty tired of private companies wanting
| me to value stock options equally to dollars.
| schwinn140 wrote:
| This is great. Any interest in expanding the Roles available in
| the drop-down menu to be more inclusive of other Roles within a
| tech company.
|
| Speaking for myself, a tech industry Marketer, I'm pretty damn
| burnt out!
|
| Thanks for creating a tool to help us visualize and keep
| reference of where we're mentally at.
|
| It might be a cool feature to have the ability to save your
| report and trigger repeat measurements over time. With that data,
| you could then 'map' the mindspace of the user and how they are
| hopefully working towards triggers and burnout.
| throwawayhhakdl wrote:
| I like this conceptually, but I don't think I trust it to be...
| a reliable opinion.
|
| I got 1.5 / 6. Apparently this means I'm at HIGH risk, which
| strikes me as pretty stupid. What are other people getting?
|
| (I am comfortable and pretty darn sure I'm not burnt out at
| all, answering several of these as "Never")
| ARandomerDude wrote:
| Meh. So much of these end up being self-fulfilling prophesies.
| Instead of telling someone they're at high risk for burnout, we
| should tell people to be reasonable with their work/life balance.
|
| Burnout is as much an employee problem as an employer problem. We
| all need to put our big boy pants on and take some responsibility
| for our actions and the consequences of those actions.
|
| Disclaimer: I don't supervise anyone.
| teddyh wrote:
| I am reminded of the "Free Personality Test"s which inevitably
| shows you have some grave personal problems which can only be
| helped by Scientology (and certainly not by those evil, evil
| psychologists).
| harshvladha wrote:
| I got 0.5/6
|
| and still it says "Your burnout risk is HIGH"
|
| I feel, it was because of little high Self-inefficacy.
|
| I experimented with different answers, once I got 0.6/6 and it
| said: "Your burnout risk is MID", but for that Self-inefficacy
| was LOW.
|
| It seems like Self-inefficacy has been taken as a high factor for
| Burnout.
| eanzenberg wrote:
| The quiz is at best propaganda and at worst psychologically
| damaging. Besides, you can't laugh at the optics of 1%ers
| whining about how hard their insanely profitable jobs are.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| Optics are real, of course, but burnout isn't necessarily
| whining. It can be seen as a kind of "business risk" for your
| career.
|
| Ignore it or otherwise fail to manage it, and you can end up
| stagnating instead of advancing, souring your relationship
| with your employer, or letting the situation build to a
| crisis where you must have relief and decide to chuck it all
| and mow lawns for a living instead.
|
| Also, every person needs to understand their own balance
| between the value they place on dumptrucks full of cash and
| sacrifices made for work. At some point the additional $50K
| in salary isn't worth it, or maybe it is. Or maybe $50K less
| in salary is a good trade-off.
| bfung wrote:
| I also ran the quiz several times and can reproduce your
| results. Science! I'm going to say the quiz is overtuned.
| redisman wrote:
| Honest question, is someone not mentally drained after
| programming(or just working) all day? That has been my experience
| for my 10+ year career every single day. Am I doing it wrong?
| default-kramer wrote:
| It depends where you work. Some places have very low
| expectations for their programmers. I have heard of places with
| very high expectations, but I've never worked at one yet. I've
| never felt mentally drained, but on occasion I have felt "keyed
| up" and I can't stop thinking about an interesting problem even
| when I go home. That is definitely less than 20% of the days in
| my 10+ year career though.
| notJim wrote:
| I immediately went to do this quiz, but then I couldn't help but
| wonder if this might be one of those Cambridge Analytica style
| "quizzes" where they're harvesting psychological data for unknown
| purposes. I'm not sure if this makes me sound savvy or insane.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| No personal information is asked, so the dataset will be pretty
| useless for monetization (you could just computationally
| generate a couple of thousand of responses and pretend it was
| the real deal).
|
| uBlock Origin blocked one weird tracker-like third-party I
| didn't recognize: fullstory.com. The rest were the usual Google
| analytics crap.
| marcossponton wrote:
| Marcos here, one of the members of the team behind this.
| Fullstory is to understand this project as a product and to
| see where it needs to be improved (because users don't
| understand or try to do things that we didn't considered,
| etc.). Only personal data (mail) is asked for those
| interested to stay in the loop in some way. The dataset
| without those emails will be on Github soon :)
| macu wrote:
| I finished the survey and clicked "get my personal results"
| - email is required to receive the results, but you can
| "Join" without providing an email.
| coleca wrote:
| Why ask the company name if the intent is to be anonymous?
| Many companies just the role name and company name is
| enough to identify the individual. Maybe there is only one
| CTO or Cloud Architect, etc. Or maybe gender + role +
| company is enough to identify.
| thrower123 wrote:
| It's simple enough to enter in "Noneya Business, Inc" for
| the company field.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Why not just add a link add the end or in a footer where
| users can submit suggestions and report bugs? When you are
| engaging users in mental health related questions, any
| tracking is suspect and creepy.
| Old_Thrashbarg wrote:
| In my experience, users don't report minor UX flaws.
|
| These kind of recording services can show, for example,
| users rage clicking what looks like a button for a couple
| seconds before finding the real button.
|
| For startups that don't have the resources to line up
| tons of user testing sessions where you watch the product
| being used, these can help make a less frustrating
| experience for users.
| sp332 wrote:
| They could use your IP address or some tracking cookies to
| link this data to a bunch of other data. Potentially.
| harshvladha wrote:
| - use incognito to avoid trackers
|
| - use proxy / vpn
|
| - resize your window if you are still scared
| patneedham wrote:
| What effect does resizing your window have?
| harshvladha wrote:
| a little help to bypass tracking by fingerprinting
| eeZah7Ux wrote:
| No. Use the Tor Browser. The manual hacks do very little.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| One nightmare / conspiracy theory scenario is they sell it
| to potential employers, recruiters, job search web sites,
| etc. and send them the signal "don't hire this person;
| they're burnt out".
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| But a job switch could help the burnout.
| eeZah7Ux wrote:
| The IP address (therefore city and country) and browser data
| already says a lot.
| adtac wrote:
| At this point, it's just 0.0.0.0/0 and Chrome
| IHLayman wrote:
| I caught that too. Good thing the test still worked with the
| trackers blocked.
| warp wrote:
| fullstory records your entire session, which can be really
| useful for developers and UX folks to investigate bugs or
| better understand how people are using your site.
|
| It's also super creepy.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Ew. Good thing uBlock Origin blocks it then.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Taking your comment into consideration, it seems like the quiz
| format could potentially shut out some of those it rather
| intends to help--its core audience even...how sad would that
| be.
|
| Imagine those who would elevate your reality-grounded concern
| (incorporating the current privacy culture context as it does)
| to the paranoia level, many of whom would do so simply because
| stress has so affected their judgment process.
|
| I know folks who work in tech for whom this would be a very
| quick and biting "no" due to such paranoia. But many of these
| same people urgently need to set boundaries and address
| destructive issues with their self-criticism circuits. They are
| burnt out.
| pizza234 wrote:
| A bit (quite a lot) simplistic (but personally, I appreciate the
| idea).
|
| In order to get a "low" index in each parameter, one needs to
| always set the best possible scenario, which is not realistic.
|
| Even in the best possible scenario _in real world_, one could be
| less than sympathetic with somebody else once a month. That
| doesn't mean they're at "mid" level of a burnout parameter.
|
| And not reaching the productivity potential at times is normal
| (and cyclical). Again, not a burnout parameter.
|
| I see "Based on scientific questionnaires created by psychology
| professionals", but I doubt it's professionally assembled.
| eanzenberg wrote:
| The quiz is at best propaganda and at worst psychologically
| damaging. Besides, you can't laugh at the optics of 1%ers
| whining about how hard their insanely profitable jobs are.
| jdkee wrote:
| Perhaps tech workers should unionize and demand better
| healthcare, 40 hour work weeks, etc.
| leftyted wrote:
| I think that burnout has more to do with existential questions
| and less to do with labor questions. If you don't have a good
| answer to "why am I doing this job?" then it doesn't matter if
| you work 40 hours and have excellent healthcare.
| dnautics wrote:
| Actually I think it's about missing your expectations of
| reward.
| etaioinshrdlu wrote:
| Not only is this politically impossible in the US, it would
| never be able to be equally applied across the industry.
| Startups would still give a raw deal to their employees.
| Startup culture in California practically worships extreme
| hours and periods without pay as "dedication" and part of the
| "grind".
|
| Furthermore the fact that programming can be fun enough for
| lone wolf hackers to do their open source projects for free
| means that unionization efforts would probably lead to a
| greater industry reliance on actual free work, not less.
| blahyawnblah wrote:
| My healthcare is 100% paid for and my work week is 40 hours 99%
| of the time.
| muchosandwich wrote:
| My work week is also 40 hours 99% of the time, including the
| community volunteering my work encourages me to do. I've
| never missed a milestone because they aren't crazy short and
| I'm allowed to push back during planning if they are. I think
| more companies should be like mine. Somehow I still got a
| 1.4/6 on this survey and my risk "HIGH"
| dmos62 wrote:
| What, and, like, have actual political power? Red scare!
| derision wrote:
| I've never had an issue with any of those things. Maybe people
| should move away from the valley into the rest of the country
| where the jobs are more humane
| sp332 wrote:
| You could still use your leverage to help other people get
| those things. Solidarity and all that.
| derision wrote:
| My point is people can get those things by moving away from
| the "cool" startups and work for the vast majority of other
| companies that already treat tech workers incredibly well.
| Compared to my peers outside of tech, I've always had
| better benefits and better working conditions than them.
| People need to realize that many of the "issues" they
| perceive with the industry are limited to certain coastal
| areas. It's the same with the "women in tech" issue. In
| every position I've held (I live in Cleveland, OH for
| reference) there's always been a balanced representation of
| developers from both genders.
| CaptArmchair wrote:
| You get downvoted, but you actually have a point.
|
| The problem with GP's statement isn't "unionization". It's
| "tech workers". What does that even mean? It's such a general
| term that can be applied to vast swathes of the workforce. Is
| someone who maintains complex VB scripted excel sheets a tech
| worker, for instance? Or is that label only reserved for
| those who work at a FAANG company?
|
| Many who have a so-called "technical" or "digital" role do so
| in industries whose main primary focus isn't producing
| digital software or services. Banks, Automotive, Health,
| Education, Food, Retail, Mining, Construction, Transport,
| Tourism,... And many of those industries do have long
| traditions of unionization and defending laborer rights.
|
| Many of those workers are already organized and do have many
| provisions for a sane workplace culture provided by their
| employers. Because the latter already went through the pain
| of worker conflicts.
|
| The trouble with the "Valley" is that it originates in that
| wild idea of bootstrapping your own company from your garage
| or kitchen table, taking the same mythical roads pioneers of
| computing took some 40 years ago.
|
| While many found unprecedented freedom in being able to
| bootstrap or work for a fledgling company, doing so was - and
| still is - a very risky proposition. You will work outrageous
| amounts of time without knowing if you ever will be able to
| cash out. You have to be okay with that.
|
| Today's FAANG companies originate from that narrative, and VC
| capital backed start up culture heavily projects that
| narrative. But Silicon Valley isn't a small community of
| computing enthousiast anymore. The Wild West doesn't exist
| anymore. It's a particular industry in it's own right and
| most sizable companies compare to well-established
| corporations who are just like any other traditional
| corporation.
|
| Yet, somehow, everyone still perceives these companies as
| pioneers and give them a free pass as to the ethical choices
| they make in how they treat the users of their products, and
| the workers who make those products.
|
| Breaking off from this tangent about Valley corporatism, it
| should be clear that the plight of workers in that setting
| isn't really comparable to all workers in other industries
| and fields that may provide better working conditions.
|
| Just recently, someone argued to me that working on "boring"
| technology is what gives you the most job stability (which
| isn't the same as security!). Like, doing Perl or Cobol for
| social security institutions, banks, transport, etc. With
| age, I've come to find that this person is likely right.
| skrebbel wrote:
| Better yet, there are _entire continents_ with more humane
| jobs than most in "the country".
| thrower123 wrote:
| I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order. We're in
| the goddamn catbird seat. We make a shitload of money, we
| actually do have good health insurance, and we punch keyboards
| in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal or working
| in the fertilizer plant from The Jungle.
|
| In this economy, if your work environment sucks, the door is
| open and there are greener pastures.
|
| The biggest problem is really that so much of what we do is
| boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless.
| fogetti wrote:
| Except that this is not true. The average salary of a
| software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly
| developed nations is only slightly better than let's say an
| accountant's. If we take the amortized hourly wage by
| considering unpaid overtime then it becomes even worse which
| is on par with an average high school teacher or alike. In
| some cases considering the unpaid overtime plus the unpaid
| self-studies it can get amortized to the level of a janitor.
| And this is a systematic problem across the industry.
|
| On the other hand the health insurance doesn't make any
| difference in these countries since it's the same for all
| citizens so I am not sure how is that relevant.
| luckylion wrote:
| > The average salary of a software engineer in Japan,
| Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly
| better than let's say an accountant's.
|
| I don't know. A quick search shows me accountants to start
| with 25-35k, while software developers start at 42k and
| peak significantly higher. Sure, depends on your definition
| of _slightly_ , I guess. If you're in Berlin, Frankfurt,
| Munich or Hamburg and you're not getting 50k, call a head
| hunter. And a lot of unpaid overtime? That's rare even for
| startups because labor law is pretty strict over here, so
| lots of overtime is a liability for the company, and, since
| it's pretty easy to find a new job if you're anywhere near
| a metropolitan area, companies do take care to not drive
| their employees away.
| Grimm1 wrote:
| Edit: I'm going to put this here because it clearly rubbed
| some people the wrong way, HN and YC were historically US
| focused they have since expanded but this site still has a
| large US population that view and post on it and with that
| come a bias for this group, including myself, to think in
| terms of the US market. My below statement, which to me is
| entirely benign, is basically saying that's what we do. Is
| it right? I don't know but frankly I don't know anything
| about non US markets in terms of software engineering jobs
| and I wouldn't attempt to make a statement in terms of
| those markets because I don't know them. I do know my own
| market though and thus you'll get posts from me in terms of
| that market and I'm not particularly sorry about that.
|
| So first off this has traditionally been a US centric site,
| so you'll have to excuse that most things take a US centric
| view and we do make a lot of money in the US software
| industry.
|
| Second I have never once worked a job like that and every
| time I see people talk about this like its the industry
| norm I kind of become incredulous to the fact. The US
| market is so good you can turn down jobs like that.
|
| I can't help but thinking the overtime you take on is more
| about you and not pushing back but again maybe this is
| different outside of the US. Here in the US at least, what
| are they going to do fire you? Cool, if they do your salary
| probably just increased by 10-20k USD as you find a new job
| in < 4 weeks.
|
| I get that what you're saying is your reality but it
| certainly hasn't been mine and if you push back on things
| more you'll maybe find it doesn't have to be yours either.
| It's our market and we have high leverage because how
| desperate jobs are for Devs of all flavors.
| ohN8eeohtai2 wrote:
| > you'll have to excuse that most things take a US
| centric view
|
| No, you are not excused. This is not an US-only website.
| Please respect other people.
| Grimm1 wrote:
| Excuse in the sense of "forgive" that people have a US
| bias. I agree with you and you read something from that I
| didn't intend sorry about that.
| fogetti wrote:
| This is right from the website: "Join the Global IT
| Burnout Index"
|
| And then there is a form to select my country. So even if
| HN is a US centric site, which I dispute actually, still
| the website in this post has nothing to do with the US.
|
| And I get that it's different in the US, but I doubt that
| people don't care if they get fired. I very much doubt
| that.
| Grimm1 wrote:
| First off I said "traditionally US centric" which it was.
| I maybe should have said "historically US centric" which
| would be more in line with what I was trying to get
| across. I don't think it is anymore.
|
| And second I certainly didn't say they don't care, what I
| am implying though is they shouldn't care as much, the
| consequences right now are minimal and potentially
| largely beneficial.
| ohN8eeohtai2 wrote:
| > I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order.
|
| Stop minimizing mental health issues. It's profoundly
| harmful!
|
| Thousands of people in the world jumped off some bridge after
| being told "you have a good life, take it easy" one time too
| much.
|
| > We're in the goddamn catbird seat.
|
| A lot of developers have very undeserved jobs, yes.
|
| > We make a shitload of money
|
| Not everybody has the sheer privilege of being born in the
| right country. In most lands developers are quite underpaid.
|
| > we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not
| mining coal
|
| If you are talking about modern coal mining - it's done by
| pressing buttons while sitting in a heated steel cabin.
|
| If you are talking about mining with a shovel - that's some
| dishonest cherry-picking.
|
| On top of that, burnout and suicide rate strongly correlates
| with feelings of doing a pointless job.
|
| When cooking or building a house or mining coal people can be
| get a surprisingly amount of satisfaction from their output.
| katetoss wrote:
| Throwaway, here.
|
| If you can't afford to buy a house on a single-income where
| you live you aren't making a shitload of money.
|
| Tech is a small club. There is a blacklist. There are
| backchannel lines of communication. Piss off the wrong people
| and it will follow you for years.
| thrower123 wrote:
| The Bay is not the world. Most of it is not anywhere near
| that kind of pathological situation.
| twoquestions wrote:
| Which is why it's important to strike while our iron is still
| hot. Grab collective bargaining power _before_ we absolutely
| need it, like so many other industries do these days.
| caconym_ wrote:
| > We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good
| health insurance, and we punch keyboards in a heated office
| at a desk.
|
| What's the point of any of that if you're miserable the whole
| time? Burning through the prime years of your life, no less.
|
| There are valid answers to that question, but I think a lot
| of people haven't even asked it. In the words of a
| particularly edgy Radiohead song: "A pig, in a cage, on
| antibiotics."
| [deleted]
| leto_ii wrote:
| > We make a shitload of money
|
| Not exactly true outside certain areas, mostly in the US. In
| The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty
| good pay.
|
| > so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme
| of things, pointless
|
| This I would say is actually quite a big problem, one that
| can lead to burnout in the longer run.
| luckylion wrote:
| > In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered
| pretty good pay.
|
| More than twice the average income? I don't know whether
| that qualifies as "shitload", but it's not that far away,
| no?
| leto_ii wrote:
| Well, in the US the equivalent would be around 200k USD.
| You should also take into account the marginal tax rate
| of 52%, which yields a net income of a bit below
| 4k/month.
|
| I'm not really complaining, mind you. It's nice to live
| in a country where basically nobody sleeps on the street,
| medical assistance is available (if you really need it)
| and basically free, the infrastructure is great etc.
| nly wrote:
| EUR80K in the Netherlands puts you in the top 1.5% of
| _household_ income[0]
|
| That said, it's possible to be in the top few % in a major
| metropolis anywhere in the world and still feel 'average'
| simply because the cost of living is so great and you're
| spending >50% of your income on housing.
|
| [0] https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-
| distribution
| leto_ii wrote:
| I'm not really saying that 80k is a little - it's not.
| It's more than fair - just not a shitload.
|
| Note however that the chart shows disposable income,
| which I'm pretty sure is the one after tax. 80k gross is
| more like 48k after tax.
| commandlinefan wrote:
| > the door is open and
|
| - you can easily find a job that devalues you in the exact
| same dehumanizing way your current job does.
| bla3 wrote:
| You can burn out no problem with great healthcare and 40 hour
| work weeks.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Right, but the velocity is probably slower.
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| I think burnout happens when you cannot see the light at the end
| of the tunnel, when every week is darker than the last.
|
| My last job offered unlimited vacation. But if I ever took any
| vacation I'd get a message from my boss the night before I got
| back with a laundry list of the things that need attention ASAP -
| I couldn't really finish relaxing before I was vacuumed back into
| the soul sucking darkness.
| monksy wrote:
| There should be an option for "fuck, I'm far past on being
| worried about this." (I.e.: the option of do you worry about your
| emotional state)
| vanusa wrote:
| Massive, built-in selection bias.
|
| People who have time for (or need the distraction of) surveys
| like these tend to be, of course... the already burnt out.
| bagacrap wrote:
| When I joined the tech industry in my early 20s and for years
| after, I noticed that many in their 30s or older seemed burned
| out. It didn't make much sense to me, because to become a tech
| worker takes drive and ambition and how would you just lose that
| one day? Now, 12 years on I can definitely see how burnout is so
| prevalent.
|
| It's like living in the desert and hearing about people drowning.
| You'd ask yourself, "how is that even possible?" But now I feel
| as if I've moved to the beach, and can easily see the waves and
| how it's a real problem. I don't think I'm burned out, but I'm
| conscious enough of the possibility to keep an eye on the tide.
| monktastic1 wrote:
| For me it's a bit similar to how I felt as a kid playing with
| legos. Who _wouldn 't_ want to play with legos many hours a
| day, most days every week? It never occurred to me that there'd
| come a point where I wanted to know that my work genuinely
| improved lives. It turns out that being good at something and
| getting paid for it isn't always enough. It's hard to avoid the
| question of meaning forever.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| The drive and ambition have a funny tech-related spin to them,
| too. Emotional or relational problems are cast in technical
| terms as if the solution is to file a bug report on one's own
| software, even in cases where it makes most sense just to get
| together and push back on the project / boss / client.
|
| Plus you can only hear about e.g. responsiveness concerns like
| latency so much from the same team / project before you
| realize: The people themselves are attempting to work more
| like, and to become more like, machines. They are also thinking
| about "my latency" as a way of becoming as responsive as
| possible. If that's true of the group, you're lucky if the
| burnout isn't already so well entrenched as to be celebrated.
| redisman wrote:
| I'm also at 12 years now, extrapolating to 25 years in the
| industry is actually pretty difficult to imagine.
| wjp3 wrote:
| Same here, and your analogy was great.
|
| Also, thanks for the laugh re: your username.
| el_dev_hell wrote:
| I had the exact experience.
|
| My tech career started at around 22. Everyone past the 28 mark
| seemed to have a generally apathetic vibe to work (compared to
| my 22 year old excitement). I had no idea how that could
| happen. Tech was awesome!!!!!!
|
| I'm almost 30 now. Fuck tech. Fuck clients. Fuck management.
| And especially fuck 22 year olds. I want to put on my
| headphones, finish my 8 hours of sludge, and run for the exit.
| Mandatum wrote:
| I burnt out 3 years in - just wanted too much, too soon instead
| of enjoying the process. May have come down to the employers.
| Have taken it easy these last 5 years, working not for a FAANG
| but very close and I've never been less stressed. Lucky my
| employer was acquired, because it sounds like the culture pre-
| acquisition was much, much more toxic.
| gowld wrote:
| 8 question survey (followed by a summary that explains the
| questions, but if you use browser navigation buttons it's
| irrevocably lost).
|
| 1. I find it difficult to relax after a day of work
|
| 2. After a day of work, I feel run-down and drained of physical
| or emotional energy
|
| 3. I feel less and less connected and engaged with the work I do.
|
| 4. I do not have a clear idea of the value and purpose of my job
|
| 5. I am harder and less sympathetic with people than perhaps they
| deserve
|
| 6. I am worried this job is making me harsher emotionally
|
| 7. I feel that I am achieving less than I should
|
| 8. I feel that I do not have time to do many of the things that
| are important for doing a good quality job
| chrshawkes wrote:
| I feel this industry is burned out due to the fact that the magic
| doesn't feel like it's there anymore. If we want a salary we're
| forced to sign NDA's & NCA's and forego all our personal
| ambitions to the company.
|
| We have endless pointless tooling for basic shit like writing
| CRUD apps. Need to make a web app? Install Node to use NPM to
| install a million and a half packages to write a Hello World
| example. It's cool though, this project was made by so and so,
| even though the creators themselves aren't using it in
| production. God forbid you're writing an SPA, that will be 2
| million dependencies. So many noob's entering the work force
| every day trying to be the next Mark Zuckerberg, constantly
| cheer-leading the latest worthless framework which is built upon
| the same old logic used for the past 40 years.
|
| Managers and tech leads suffering from blogitis reading some dumb
| ass opinion on why he chose React etc.. and pushing the entire
| team and company in that direction. As far as I can tell, our
| webapps are still a broken pile of patches just the same as they
| we're 10 years ago. Only this time around, they're much more
| difficult to write and maintain.
|
| On top of that we have endless meetings all day, arbitrary 1 - 5
| ranking systems, biased promotions and endless arbitrary
| deadlines. Not to worry though, Agile and all it's pointless
| complexities to the rescue.
|
| Finally, we have smug spoiled people all over this industry
| talking down to us about the tech we use and how much smarter
| they are because they hit the jackpot due to mommy and daddy's
| connections etc...
|
| It's not the wild west anymore and tech isn't nearly as fun or as
| competitive for the individual. It's just a choice between the
| corporate grind or starving startup hipster.
| glenf454 wrote:
| CONTACT US FOR ALL KINDS OF HACKING JOB @ glenfthomas@gmail.com
| TEXT ON (770) 824-6784 We offer professional hacking services
| whalesalad wrote:
| My mind immediately went to the other kind of burnout where you
| shave a few 32nds off your tires.
|
| Might need to do a few of those because I scored a 5.6.
| skrebbel wrote:
| I love the illustration
| sz4kerto wrote:
| Be really careful with these surveys.
|
| The problems of these, among other things:
|
| - mixing up burnout risk with burnout
|
| - mixing up burnout with physical or mental fatigue
|
| - not serving any purpose (i.e. not providing good directions)
|
| Burnout is primarily a negative change in perception, and it's a
| spectrum, obviously. You get burned out when your perception of
| the same situation gets progressively worse. This can be caused
| by various factors -- exhaustion, doing stuff that doesn't match
| your values, etc. It can also be prevented in various ways; i.e.
| you can do very exhausting work and not get burned out.
|
| A really simplistic, but fun/useful way of detecting burnout (not
| the risk): if you regularly think that you and your
| team/company/environment work hard, but your customers/broader
| company/other teams are stupid/not intelligent/not constructive,
| then that's the first phase ('us vs them'). This can progress to
| the next phase, where it's more like 'me vs them', so you despise
| most of your environment. This is when people tend to leave. The
| last step is apathy, people rarely end here.
|
| It's not really possible to move backwards on this scale without
| changing roles/work/colleagues.
| TopHand wrote:
| The major part of burnout is thus caused by HR. HR directs that
| the way teams are evaluated is that they are compared to one
| another, and it is mandatory that one team be rated over
| another team which creates an us vs them mentality. Then
| members of the team must be evaluated against one another again
| with one person rated above another which creates a me vs them
| mentality. If you are rated down, your going to believe that
| the person doing the rating either can't see that you or your
| team is working smarter and harder than the rest. They got
| rated up because they somehow cheated the system and the person
| who rated them is as stupid as they are. If you or your team
| are rated first, then obviously they don't work as hard or as
| smart as you.
| kortilla wrote:
| This is not how HR departments behave in many companies.
| rpastuszak wrote:
| This resonates with me a lot, but are these just your own
| observations or conclusions supported by directly research? (if
| so, any chance you could share the sources?)
| tpjoynt wrote:
| The book "Tribal Leadership" summarizes that scale nicely.
| ghostbrainalpha wrote:
| Wait.... "apathy" is rare?
|
| I thought that is the step where most of us have been hanging
| out.
|
| I have been waiting for the "real burnout" to kick in when I
| dropped another level or two.
| gowld wrote:
| Apathy at work is only possible if you have a nothing-
| required job where you can't get fired for not working. It
| happens, but commonly employers will notice and fire such an
| employee.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| To quote office space:
|
| "That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled, that
| and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will
| only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired."
| sz4kerto wrote:
| Apathy is comparatively rare, yes. (Sorry for the HN crowd
| for not getting into the data here, not enough time right
| now.) That's because the previous level is usually so painful
| that people end up changing something. Especially in
| engineering the market is so much better than in practically
| any other field that people who don't move out from the
| previous phase ('I hate everyone around me') mostly do this
| because they have something else going on in their lives.
| This, however (other things going on) is something that
| _prevents_ further burnout, because one of the best burnout
| prevention method is _purpose_. Example: working in a call
| center is mostly extremely stressful. Having a purpose like
| 'I do this to so that I am able to finish my degree' is an
| useful thing to prevent burnout. Working hard like hell on a
| startup for 6 months with a clear purpose usually doesn't
| cause a burnout (can cause other problems tho').
|
| People who end up in the 'apathy' phase usually do so because
| they somehow lacked the purpose, the means of changing their
| situation and also the realization that things are going very
| badly. If you think that you're in the apathetic phase then
| you're likely not, because you still have some self-
| reflection.
| milesvp wrote:
| Can confirm. I don't have the luxury of burnout, as the the
| primary breadwinner for a larger than anticipated family
| (yay twins!). So I hover just above breaking point, and
| only occasionally dip my toes in no longer having any F*s
| to give.
|
| On the flip side, if I didn't have the family with young
| children, I'm positive my life would be so much less
| stressful, that burnout risk would be slim to none...
| hug wrote:
| It depends on what you mean by apathy. I'd look up the
| definition for you, but honestly I can't be bothered. Hyuk
| hyuk.
|
| Anyway: I am incredibly productive in my ops job, where I
| feel like the platforms I support are largely meaningless and
| do nothing but drive efficiency to achieve nothing important
| for no one in particular.
|
| I feel I am driving 'value creation' for people whose wealth
| is already immeasurable, in a way that it's like it's without
| beginning or end and perhaps does not even really exist.
|
| Running thousands of watts worth of automated infrastructure
| capable of serving gigabytes of traffic at sub millisecond
| latency, over multipath anycast triple redundant n-tier
| software defined fuckin' whatever, so that your loading
| spinner shows up bit faster.
|
| Like a literal hamster wheel.
|
| And all that said I am neither unhappy nor close to burn out.
| I have absolutely no passion for my job, but I do for the
| things that it allows me to do. Work is always, for everyone
| involved, a means to an end:
|
| For the company, that end is whatever it is producing,
| widgets for the widgetless, convincing people that
| widgetlessnes is terrible, tracking widget purchases to
| better market more advanced widgets to those that desire
| them, or whatever.
|
| For me, it is my salary: The thing in life that grants me the
| affordance to do what it is that I actually want to do. That
| which I have pathos for, it could be.
|
| Honestly, a _lot_ of people I deal with are the same: If they
| could leave their nine-to-five in tech and make an equivalent
| living doing interpretive dance or painting while doing
| handstands or competing in spoken-word free-verse poetry
| competitions, y 'know, the thing it is that they want to do
| that is worth absolutely nothing to anyone else, they
| probably would. I would write bad novels from the back corner
| of a dimly lit cocktail bar.
|
| I can't do that for a salary anything near like what I make
| now, so I do it in my free time.
|
| Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
| baumy wrote:
| This isn't on topic, but assuming you were serious about
| writing novels in your free time - I enjoyed this comment
| so much I read it several times, and probably will come
| back and read it again at some point in the semi-distant
| future. You have a wonderful way with words.
| hug wrote:
| I was serious about the writing _and_ the cocktail bar.
|
| I owe you a heartfelt thank-you: It plainly and honestly
| brings me an incredible happiness when people compliment
| my writing.
| _jal wrote:
| > I have absolutely no passion for my job
|
| Are you talking about the job itself, or the thing being
| produced?
|
| I don't care about the products my company makes, and I
| think that's a good thing, at least for me. When I've cared
| deeply about the actual thing being made in the past, that
| led to emotional attachment, which sucks when your idea
| doesn't win. It also led me to tend to bias effort towards
| my own particular hobby-horse, instead of what the data or
| the plan told me.
|
| Now, the job itself is different - I care what activities I
| spend my time doing and who I do it with. Make me do things
| that bore me, and I will eventually do a bad job, because
| I'm a bit undisciplined. And shitty or incompetent people
| will chase me off faster than anything else except obvious
| management disfunction.
| RangerScience wrote:
| Nah, sounds like you're doing fine.
|
| I'd point out that (IMO) you feel like you DO provide
| value, that you are good at what you do, recognized for it,
| and there aren't active negatives in your work environment.
| All that's lacking is a meaningful "greater purpose" that
| results from the value you provide. Which is fine, although
| may eventually transition to less than fine.
| ChefboyOG wrote:
| Our common idea of burnout largely comes from Christina Maslach
| --the Maslach Burnout Inventory is more or less the standard
| tool that psychologists use to score and diagnose burnout now--
| and interestingly, it diagnoses burnout as three related but
| independent subscales:
|
| Exhaustion - somewhat self-explanatory
|
| Professional Efficacy - your view of your performance
|
| Cynicism - a distancing of yourself from your job
|
| Though you may come across different names in different
| writings. It's interesting how the subscales impact each other.
|
| I don't know if I fully buy into the framework 100%, but it
| makes for interesting research nonetheless.
| soneca wrote:
| The first time I heard about burnout was from a colleague that
| was just trying to go back to a job after about two years being
| mentally unable to do any job. It started when one day,
| arriving at the work, they just froze and started crying
| uncontrollably.
|
| It was a diagnosed condition. I am always unsure of what people
| are talking about when they talk about burnout. Is this panic
| attack that makes someone temporarily incapable of working or
| is a strong stress feeling that might be solved just by
| changing jobs?
|
| The spectrum idea makes sense, but the situation, consequences,
| and ways to help are _very_ different on different parts of
| this spectrum.
| [deleted]
| dunkelheit wrote:
| I think the term burnout was first applied to social workers.
| Just imagine the situation they are in: a steady stream of
| people with serious problems in their lives comes to you and
| you are supposed to help them. But you have so little time
| and power to help any particular case that you hardly seem to
| make any difference. And no matter what you do that stream
| never ends. No wonder that feelings of sheer helplessness,
| ineffectiveness, meaninglessness of your work, cynicism,
| ennui, and extreme aversion to the work can appear. That's
| burnout. I don't think it is specifically associated with
| panic, aside from the panic that if you start working you
| will experience all the negative emotions that you associate
| with your job.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| > ineffectiveness, meaninglessness of your work, cynicism,
| ennui, and extreme aversion to the work can appear
|
| Jobs in corporate software development can feel pretty much
| like that, at least for me. Startups are better, but, on
| the other hand, they work you harder.
| dunkelheit wrote:
| Yeah, exactly.
|
| My own totally unscientific theory of burnout is that
| with scarce positive reinforcement and lack of progress
| towards some higher goal your lizard brain just stops
| understanding why on earth you continue to expend energy
| on this job thing. Of course your job pays the bills but
| this may be hard for the lizard brain to understand (and
| in case of volunteers where even this positive
| reinforcement is absent, burnout hits them especially
| hard).
|
| Many corporate jobs share this dynamic. Support,
| obviously. But every position where there is a lot of
| routine maintenance and lack of any kind of satisfying
| milestone ahead carries the risk. Also, opensource
| maintainers (Unpaid? Check. Never ending stream of
| maintenance work? Check. Lack of some higher goal? Well,
| their project is already popular, there may be no other
| definite goal.)
|
| Startups are better in this regard because growth
| provides positive reinforcement and the possibility of an
| exit provides a higher goal. But what if growth stops and
| the satisfying exit never materializes? Burnout will hit
| you like a hammer.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > Jobs in corporate software development can feel pretty
| much like that, at least for me. Startups are better,
| but, on the other hand, they work you harder.
|
| You might be confusing cause and effect; you feel those
| things after being burnt out. Once upon a time, I worked
| at a start up doing very rewarding, high-impact work with
| cutting edge technology...just too much of it. I could
| feel burnout creeping up[1] and I asked my boss for time
| off, he agreed, but feared I would not return after my
| break and pressured me to finish the project before
| leaving by working at an even faster pace - you can guess
| what happened next. I walked in one morning, sat and my
| desk and I discovered I no longer had any gas left in the
| tank: I was completely _empty_ inside, no motivation, no
| interest in any doing anything work-related, all I could
| do was browse web comics all day, and even this didn 't
| bring me any joy at the time.
|
| I took my break and switched employers soon after (which
| wasn't my plan initially), fortunately the new
| organization had a much slower pace, it took me months to
| get close to my previous level of productivity. Never
| again.
|
| 1. When weekends doesn't feel like enough time away from
| work, you might be on your way to burnout
| thdrdt wrote:
| It's like a rubber band. You can stretch it far, but then it
| reaches the limit.
|
| That's why people who are burnt out can suddenly freeze and
| are unable to continue what they were doing.
| tpetry wrote:
| Freezing and starting to cry without any reason was the exact
| same moment for me i recognized i hat do change. I made three
| weeks holiday without any technical equipment just to slow
| down life very drastically. A few weeks more of just working
| half days and much sport and i was back to normal. Never
| again!
| mk89 wrote:
| Thanks for sharing your experience! Much appreciated.
| CrankyBear wrote:
| I don't buy it. With a very low score--hey I like what I'm doing
| --I'm still at a high-risk of burnout. I Don't Think So.
| [deleted]
| richardlblair wrote:
| This misses so many nuances it's not even funny.
|
| I'm mentally and physically exhausted, yes. However, I'm
| exceptionally happy. I enjoy what I do. I want to do it all day
| long.
|
| We're working on something I think is useful, I think people need
| it, and I want them to have it sooner rather than later. This
| might mean I burn out and need a weeks rest come like... June,
| but fuck, I'm running straight towards that and I'm so happy I
| don't care.
| brailsafe wrote:
| A few weeks rest!? You certainly might need that, but it ain't
| burnout--and yes I'll gatekeep it, because burnout is a
| different degree. I genuinely hope it doesn't happen for you,
| and getting out while you're happy is probably a great way to
| mitigate, but it's risky. One of the things about burnout that
| is so deceiving, is that combination of feeling great about it
| and sacrificing so much personally or investing too much
| personally, then you get hit hard when your expectations stop
| aligning. Could be anything, like you thought based on your
| work that you were way more valued, then someone new comes in
| and fires you or changes direction and all of a sudden the last
| two years are tossed in the garbage. That 3 weeks you would
| have spent relaxing turns into 2 years spent figuring out wth
| you were thinking and what to do next.
| wcunning wrote:
| I got a 2.1/6, which is less than 50%. Apparently this is a
| "high" risk of burnout... Why not replace it with a button that
| says "Do you work in tech?" Yes -> High Risk of Burnout, since
| that's the vibe they're going with.
| hinoki wrote:
| I got 0.6 / 6, and it said the same. Is it possible to not be
| at high risk of burnout according to this survey?
| almost_usual wrote:
| I got a 'mid risk' at 1.3. All of my ratings were low except
| 'exhaustion' which was a mid.
| fattire wrote:
| As a test, I answered 0 for most choices. 1 for like two or
| so.
|
| Result: .6 of 6, "high" burnout risk.
| MrZander wrote:
| This thing is trash. I put "never" on everything and then "a
| few times a year" on one and I was still "mid" risk at 0.3/6.
|
| Putting "once a month or less" on one thing made it "high" at
| 0.5/6
|
| So basically 0.0 = LOW, 0.1 - 0.3 = MID, 0.3 - 6.0 = HIGH
|
| Basically everyone who isn't in their dream job is at high
| risk of burnout. Pointless quiz.
| tubbs wrote:
| I was surprised when my 1/6 gave me high risk. I am very
| thankful for what I do and I enjoy going to work.
|
| If you answer "None" to everything, your burnout risk is low
| (0/6).
|
| Answering a single question with 1 (A few times a year or
| less) puts you at .1/6 (Mid), which goes up to .5/6.
|
| I find the results reporting of this to be rather
| sensationalist and the whole thing pretty useless. If you're
| burnt out, you probably don't need an online quiz to tell
| you.
| almost_usual wrote:
| Think it depends on the category. I scored a 'mid' with a
| 1.3.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Odd, I just popped 3 in everything to get 3/6 and it gave
| "mid" https://i.imgur.com/0YSLoyP.png
| csomar wrote:
| I guess you give them your email address and then find out?
| hug wrote:
| And they have the balls to tell me that my cynicism level is
| high.
|
| I mean, they're not wrong, but _gosh_.
| runawaybottle wrote:
| I agree burnout is real, but I have never run into a someone
| working that doesn't make a fuss about how 'busy' they are. I
| feel the results are going to be 'yep, everyone is burnt out'.
| huebomont wrote:
| I'm not busy, and still burnt out. Not having enough of value
| to do can also burn you out.
| sint762 wrote:
| what a dumb survey
| samatman wrote:
| This is useless, unfortunately. I answered it honestly; I'm
| someone with a low-agreeableness personality, and some health
| problems (which have been improving, but nonetheless) which leave
| me pretty drained of energy at the end of the day.
|
| This test doesn't even try to account for those things, and
| offers me a high risk of burnout despite low-to-perfect scores
| for everything else.
| cryptozeus wrote:
| This is total scam covered with nice UI. All the results indicate
| burn out is high if you select tech industry.
|
| Do not take the survey.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Maybe I'm not burning out. Maybe I'm just tired and
| intellectually drained after 8 hours of intellectual stimulation.
| And maybe that's totally normal.
| janee wrote:
| I'm a sucker for questionnaires, but this just seemed to
| simplistic. I'd say you might as well replace the questions with
| a single "how burnt out do you feel" input.
|
| Would love to see how different industries compare on some of
| these scores.
| unixhero wrote:
| Works fine for me. Great little tool this.
| tempsy wrote:
| I don't think burnout is really about overwork so much as
| spending even 40 hours a week doing something that is contrary to
| your own personal values. I suspect a lot of people work on
| things (ads, selling more crap, getting people in more debt,
| etc.) that they ultimately don't think really matter or are a net
| benefit to society.
| acrefoot wrote:
| I think it's possible to burn out working on things you think
| are important but that are chronically underfunded or ignored.
| For example, I can imagine working on cleantech or green NGOs
| only to be consistently frustrated that people don't want to
| pay for better recycling and cleaner energy, or want to reduce
| their water usage.
| dnate wrote:
| Also, that theory does not work with the fact, that a lot of
| burnout victims are social workers.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| Exactly. Burnout can happen because you have a cynical
| malaise about your mission. But it can also happen because
| you are so passionate about your mission that where a
| normal person would understand reasonable boundaries
| between work and life, you can't resist the temptation to
| push right past them. (Which violates the principle of
| taking care of yourself first, so that you can take care of
| others.)
|
| Sorry to bring up religion in polite conversation, but an
| interesting theory I've heard about church pastors is that
| sometimes they have extramarital affairs (partly) for an
| unusual reason. They feel called to do their type of work,
| but it's all-consuming, so they end up feeling conflicted.
| Part of them wants to quit, but another part cannot justify
| it. So instead of quitting, they do something which might
| or might not get them fired. It's a moral failing, but less
| of a moral failing than abandoning your mission.
| (Ultimately, it's just a way to not take responsibility for
| your choices, but that's human beings for you.)
| brailsafe wrote:
| I feel like the cynical malaise is maybe more healthy to
| go in with, and also what your impression of everything
| turns into after getting burned out because you went in
| with a ton of personal investment (passion or whatever)
| jamil7 wrote:
| I've worked on and around volunteer and open source projects
| for social and environmental causes and burn out is an issue
| there too. Often for some of the reasons you mention, other
| factors are also lack of resources and an inhibility to come
| to quick decisions and move a project forward, it can feel
| like you're going nowhere and having the same conversations
| over and over.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| Reminds me a friend quit tech went to work for the state
| doing utility grade solar permitting. About 80% of the work
| he was doing for two years was just trying to nail down the
| proper process because people are going to sue. Including
| organizations you think of as allies, like the sierra club.
| And then the project he was working on was canceled.
|
| badup bumm.
| op00to wrote:
| I burned out because I found I was covering for higherups and
| enabling their further abuse and bad behavior. Can't do that
| forever...
| eeZah7Ux wrote:
| That's exactly one of the main reasons. Burnout has little to
| do with overwork.
| the_cat_kittles wrote:
| this is so central. and i almost never see it mentioned here on
| hn. i feel seen lol
| cbanek wrote:
| With my luck, I found a bug. If you press one button for an
| answer, then press another one, I find that the button is not
| selected, but the length of the button is shortened. It's
| strange. After clicking again it seems fine.
|
| Other than that, cynicism checks out on the results. 5.1.
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