[HN Gopher] QEMU for iOS
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QEMU for iOS
Author : funkaster
Score : 120 points
Date : 2020-02-21 18:19 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| neilsimp1 wrote:
| This is cool, but I can't help but think that running a VM on an
| iPad or iPhone would be horrendously slow.
| throwaway55554 wrote:
| Why would you think that? Apple's processors are very powerful.
| akhilcacharya wrote:
| The iPad Pro is very impressive, here a video of one playing
| Half Life 1 in XP using UTM [0]
|
| [0]
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O19dNVTBCAs&feature=youtu.be
| hinkley wrote:
| Have you played Civ VI on an iPad? Except for being slightly
| harder to click on things (and no keyboard shortcuts) it
| plays the same as the desktop version. Same UI and graphics.
| anonsivalley652 wrote:
| Nice.
|
| _Printed on electrons from a cheap(er), used iPad Pro 10.5 "
| over 4G LTE_
| nfoz wrote:
| Sure but if it's to emulate a computer from 1985 with half a
| meg of RAM, it might not be so bad :)
|
| Edit: my bad, somehow I thought this was UAE the amiga
| emulator.
| machello13 wrote:
| serious question as someone who has an iPhone + iPad but isn't
| very familiar with emulation. What could you do with this? How
| feasible is it to run Windows and then install Steam or something
| like that?
| jsjohnst wrote:
| I ran Linux and Windows 95 on a first gen iPad using Bochs.
| Boot time was utterly terrible, but it was kinda useable after.
| Given the performance improvements in recent iPads, I'm hoping
| this will be better, but I'll let you know once I get home and
| try it.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| > "Since iOS 13.3.1, it appears Apple has stopped allowing free
| developer profiles to sign dylibs."
|
| A terrible decision. Users should always be allowed, at the very
| least, to build and sideload _their own code_.
| throwaway55554 wrote:
| I use and enjoy Apple products, but behavior like this is so
| annoying. My devices are _mine_ and this should _not_ be a
| restriction.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| IOS devices have never been your own. Apple justified this in
| the early days on the grounds that they were protecting
| mobile phone networks from hackers, but that argument fell
| through when the iPod touch (an iPhone without phone
| functionality) was equally locked down. The only thing Apple
| is protecting with this policy is their revenue stream.
| kccqzy wrote:
| I'm not very familiar with iOS but is this restriction a
| fundamental limitation or just a paper-cut style limitation
| that's just one more hurdle for developers to jump through?
|
| It appears to me that developers who are previously using
| dynamic libraries now have to invest in the effort to make them
| static libraries and link them to the main executable. So it
| seems like it can be overcome, but just more hassle. Am I
| correct?
| earenndil wrote:
| It is completely arbitrary, yes.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| > Users should always be allowed, at the very least, to build
| and sideload their own code.
|
| You barely can anyway. Unless you pay $99/yr for a developer
| account, any self-compiled apps you install will expire after
| seven days. If you want your app to keep working, you need to
| plug your phone into a computer and recompile every single
| week. That's just not realistically usable for anything other
| than simple testing.
|
| Yes, it should be allowed. But it's not. It's been this way for
| the entire history of iOS and it's awful.
| sigjuice wrote:
| Do apps from a $99/yr account last for a year or is there
| some other sort of time limit?
| NamPNQ wrote:
| The title lets me think about ios emulator run in qemu
| tjoff wrote:
| Not being in the apple world I wondered if this submission meant
| anything had changed regarding running stuff like this on iOS,
| but no:
|
| > _Why isn 't this in the AppStore?
|
| Apple does not permit any apps that has interpreted or generated
| code therefore it is unlikely that UTM will ever be allowed.
| However, there are various ways people on the internet have come
| up to side load apps without requiring a jailbreak. We do not
| condone or support any of these methods._
| anonsivalley652 wrote:
| Apple's control-freaking and exploitation of customers has
| reached peak unreasonableness. I don't think SJ would've been
| so focused on making trillions when some billions could be had
| with cooler, repairable, lasting products. Personally, I have
| one foot out of the door (hackintosh) regarding the Apple
| ecosystem. I'm going to let the iPhone 6S, iPad Pro 10.5 and
| Apple Watch 4 run however long they can, but that's probably it
| for me, I'll stick to repairable devices like my ThinkPad T480.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| It's ironic that Woz especially wanted to bring computing to
| the masses, not lock it down. Apple is the antithesis of its
| own founders' vision.
|
| Apple deserves to be disrupted.
| saber6 wrote:
| You can pay for a developer account ($99/yr) which allows you
| to get your builds signed by Apple for the purposes of you
| running either dev-builds locally or internal-only apps for an
| organization.
|
| That's what they mean by "no jailbreak required". Flipside is
| you gotta pay for a dev account to get your stuff signed to
| allow it to run.
| gruez wrote:
| You don't even need a (paid) developer account. Anyone with
| an apple id can sign ios apps with a validity of 7 days.
| snazz wrote:
| Not dynamically loaded libraries after 13.3.1, however.
| jscheel wrote:
| General consensus is that this is a bug though. Apple has
| not come out with any announced change.
| dahfizz wrote:
| You need to pay a subscription to run your own code on your
| own device? Why anyone puts up with Apple's anticonsumerism
| is beyond me.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| Security. Privacy. Long term support of hardware
| (environment). No carrier crapware.
| dhosek wrote:
| I'd imagine most of those who would have need/interest in
| running this would probably have a developer account and could
| just compile and install it themselves.
| [deleted]
| trasz wrote:
| This is just not true. There are many emulators in AppStore,
| from i48 (which runs HP 48's native Saturn ROM), to ZORK, which
| runs PDP-11 binary of said game underneath, along with emulated
| RT-11 (or was it RSX-11?).
| rgovostes wrote:
| > 2.5.2 Apps [may not] download, install, or execute code which
| introduces or changes features or functionality of the app,
| including other apps.
|
| The rule changed, I think around the time that Swift
| Playgrounds came out, to add:
|
| > Educational apps designed to teach, develop, or allow
| students to test executable code may, in limited circumstances,
| download code provided that such code is not used for other
| purposes. Such apps must make the source code provided by the
| Application completely viewable and editable by the user.
|
| There are probably plenty of apps that do interpret downloaded
| code (the Frotz app to play old text adventures comes to mind)
| and fly under the radar. But Apple would surely be on the
| lookout for any kind of emulator, due to the legal risk.
| rlyshw wrote:
| You can run seemingly unrestricted python code on your iOS
| devices with Pythonista [0]. I'm using it right now to proxy
| my hotspot connection through my iPhone.
|
| Not sure how they're allowed to exist on the app store, but
| it's been solid for me for a while now.
|
| [0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pythonista-3/id1085978097
| tech234a wrote:
| Pythonista has been featured by Apple several times. As
| others have pointed out, only pure-Python modules can be
| used unless they are precompiled and included with the app.
| ericlewis wrote:
| it is categorized as a learning application, but I am quite
| curious how you made a proxy with it.
| dwheeler wrote:
| There's no legal risk. Microsoft allows people to install
| emulators on their OS without issue.
|
| The issue is that Apple wants a big profit cut on each app.
| If you were allowed to download & run applications on your
| own computer, then Apple wouldn't get its cut.
| rgovostes wrote:
| That may be _one_ factor, but it certainly isn 't the only
| one. There are plenty of remote desktop apps on the App
| Store. But Steam Link was held up in review because Apple
| did not want people being able to buy games without getting
| a cut.
|
| Microsoft "allows" people to install emulators in the same
| sense that Apple "allows" it on macOS, but a quick search
| confirms that Microsoft does not allow emulators on their
| app store, nor does Google. (These policies may
| specifically be for video game emulation, which is mostly
| what the legal grey area covers.)
| tyfon wrote:
| Google play has emulators, here are some examples [1] [2]
|
| It even has Bochs [3]
|
| Or am I misunderstanding something?
|
| [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.exp
| lusalph...
|
| [2] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mup
| en64plu...
|
| [3] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.sou
| rceforg...
| rgovostes wrote:
| Yeah, could be allowed. I did a fast search and there
| were records of apps such as SuperRetro16 being kicked
| out. But I don't know if it's a policy that is poorly
| enforced, or the removals were for some other reason.
| rhodysurf wrote:
| Interpreted code is fine for most cases, but compiling is a
| big no no. Which is unfortunate and limiting
| frabert wrote:
| > "Fast native graphics through para-virtualization thanks to
| SPICE"
|
| I'm assuming the SPICE referred to here is not the SPICE I know,
| unless they've gone the full video circuit emulation route, which
| I don't imagine being fast at all :)
| detaro wrote:
| probably :D
|
| https://www.spice-space.org/
| anonsivalley652 wrote:
| A different kind of "circuit." ;)
| hamiltonkibbe wrote:
| Hah, having parameters like --vga-cable-length --ambient-
| temperature --psrr would be fun though
| jasoneckert wrote:
| Has anyone used this? What is the performance like?
| lwb wrote:
| > Apple does not permit any apps that has interpreted or
| generated code
|
| An interesting exception to this is Expo, an app that lets you
| load React Native apps built by other developers over the
| internet. Expo gets around this on Apple by forcing you to sign
| into that developer's account before downloading their app, so
| that it's plausibly "yours". I've used to distribute early builds
| of a React Native app really easily.
|
| All of this to say, I wonder to what degree Apple's policy
| applies when it's "your" app, or you are the developer, or
| whatever. I suspect Expo, as a venture backed startup, has some
| kind of a working relationship with Apple that affords them a
| tiny amount more leeway than the average Github user.
|
| This could actually be an incredibly useful application that many
| people pay lots of money for if were ever allowed on the market
| -- think of the combination of iPad + keyboard + Windows Remote
| Desktop. Really sad that Apple makes their platform so
| restrictive. (Yes, security issues, but still, seems like a good
| enough sandbox could overcome the danger of remote execution.)
| jsjohnst wrote:
| > iPad + keyboard + Windows Remote Desktop
|
| Why not just install the free Microsoft RDP client for iOS?
| Seems like extreme overkill to use an x86 emulator with a full
| OS installed to do something that's available for free in the
| AppStore.
| anonsivalley652 wrote:
| That's not much different than TestFlight (acquired by Apple)
| or MS AppCenter (acquired as HockeyApp).
|
| PS: I'm using an iPad Pro 10.5 over LTE right now with an
| original Apple Wireless Keyboard 1 with proper arrow keys. I
| use Vim on it and can save to shared services. Heck, you can
| even fire-up the embedded python with _:!python3 <enter>_ It
| also redirects phone calls from my vintage unlimited data plan,
| so I don't need a phone... but it looks goofy talking into my
| iPad John Oliver-style. ;)
| lwb wrote:
| The important difference is the turn around time -- with Expo
| I can make a change locally and see it with my testers in
| less than a minute, whereas with TestFlight everything has to
| be manually reviewed for 2-3 days after a heavy-handed
| submission process.
| jsjohnst wrote:
| I routinely do TestFlight builds without manual review and
| fast turnaround from build -> running on beta user devices.
| rhodysurf wrote:
| Expo is also completely different and within the rules. They
| arent installing apps, they are simply loading JS and running
| it like any RN app could do. They just make it easy by pre-
| bundling deps so that they can be loaded on the fly. Its
| literally just downloading JS and assets from a server and then
| executing the JS with JSC on ios.
|
| They also get around the limitation of having half the screen
| showing the executed code by not letting users modify the code
| through their app.
| lwb wrote:
| Right, but the QEMU project is also simply loading X86 (or
| other) assembly code and interpreting it in a virtual
| machine... unless I misunderstand this project and it does
| something more sophisticated.
|
| > the limitation of having half the screen showing the
| executed code
|
| I'm not aware of this limitation, could the QEMU port use
| this to show the ASM that's being executed to get around
| this?
| ericlewis wrote:
| the largest difference is that Expo uses JavaScriptCore, a
| framework provided by apple for use by any application that
| wishes to execute javascript code. Since it is their own
| interpreter it is fine.
| rhodysurf wrote:
| IDK about virtual machines and why this isnt allowed. But
| related is how this app works that is a c compiler for iOS
| and is in the app store: https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgra
| mming/comments/dr5bxi/app_...
|
| It basically does the same thing Swift Playgrounds does
| where is compiles to LLVM machine code and runs it will
| LLVM compiled for iOS. And it is on the app store so IDK
| the rules at all apparently and why QEMU wouldnt be
| allowed.
| kick wrote:
| Apple's really loose with the interpreted code policy. Not
| going to mention some of the apps I use that do so if nothing
| else because HN has dozens of Apple employees.
| [deleted]
| osy wrote:
| Hi, author here. I'm here to answer any questions but also I want
| to advertise the fact that it would be really really awesome if
| interested devs can join the project. Currently it's just me
| doing this on my spare time for the past year. Specifically I'm a
| complete newbie at UI/UX stuff and the project could use a real
| designer/front end developer.
| lazerl0rd wrote:
| Thanks for the amazing work, I thought about this a while back
| when I saw WINE Hangover for Android but this is even better
| (in some ways, at least). Sadly, the iPadOS/iOS 13.3.1 issue is
| a headache and the certain jailbreak tools which usually get
| around IPA signing aren't working either.
|
| Whilst most people are saying it's a bug on Apple's side I'm
| worried it's more than that. The removal of signed iPadOS/iOS
| 13.3 from their servers, along with the returned ability of
| flashing static lib'ed packages after all being blocked for a
| while seems more "on purpose" from Apple rather than "by
| accident". We gotta just wait and see, I guess.
| osy wrote:
| I think the jailbreak IPA signing isn't working because it
| needs the `get-task-allow` entitlement which idk if every
| tool is aware of. This entitlement is only given out in
| development profiles and not any distribution profiles so I
| can't upload to TestFlight either. If Apple locks down what
| you can do with `get-task-allow` in the future then a
| jailbreak would be required to run this.
| lazerl0rd wrote:
| Would you by any chance consider TestFlight to distribute
| UTM? iSH (a usermode Linux "terminal" emulator) has been
| for quite some time, and I can't see why you shouldn't be
| able to.
| osy wrote:
| > This entitlement is only given out in development
| profiles and not any distribution profiles so I can't
| upload to TestFlight either.
| jsjohnst wrote:
| iSH works differently. It's not running "Linux" and it
| isn't virtualizing hardware either. Anything you run has
| to be compiled for ARM already and the syscalls are
| emulated, there is no Linux kernel in iSH.
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(page generated 2020-02-21 23:00 UTC)