[HN Gopher] Offshoring roulette: lessons from outsourcing (2016)
___________________________________________________________________
Offshoring roulette: lessons from outsourcing (2016)
Author : throwaway3157
Score : 107 points
Date : 2020-02-24 17:49 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.troyhunt.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.troyhunt.com)
| gentleman11 wrote:
| Lets assume that the situation changes over the next 15 years and
| these outsourcing places get really legitimately good at making
| software.
|
| What can we, the highly paid locals, can do to justify our high
| salaries at that hypothetical future point?
|
| (playing starcraft taught me a tremendous amount of respect for
| East Asian creativity and work ethic)
| inertiatic wrote:
| Most of the tech behemoths already have offices around the
| world.
|
| Maybe these offices are just following the great standards set
| by the people working at the HQ.
|
| Even then, there are a bunch of companies that have their
| engineering based in other countries.
|
| I personally worked for a few companies that are major player
| in their fields (although not unicorns) that have offices here
| in the Greece.
|
| Most of these companies have one thing in common, the
| leadership, everyone at the C level, work and live in the US.
| In fact, the companies I worked for had HQs in the SV.
|
| I don't think SV has a significantly better talent pool. My
| anecdote is that my local team has had more than a couple
| laughs looking at code written by our SV-based colleagues.
|
| But I think that building your business there certainly gives
| you a huge advantage.
|
| Your engineering doesn't need to be there.
| bilbo0s wrote:
| > _Your engineering doesn 't need to be there._
|
| and I'm fair certain engineering won't be there in the
| future. Probably not even in the US. Just the research-y type
| stuff might stay here longer to be close to the universities.
| But assuming the market is left to its own development,
| ginormous US based engineering teams will likely go the way
| of the Dodo bird in the future.
| inertiatic wrote:
| I don't know if I can make an informed prediction, but even
| if I could I don't think I would be that extreme.
|
| I would expect salaries to fall but I wouldn't expect
| software development to move entirely. It should make sense
| for a lot of companies to pay a premium to keep their
| workforce closer to their leadership.
| user5994461 wrote:
| What do you mean by highly paid locals? With the exception of
| the Silicon Valley or NYC bubble, developers in big cities in
| developed countries are approaching US and European salaries
| and they are increasing quickly.
|
| Well, truth be told they're already surpassed us. If you want
| cheaper, you might as well go to Spain or Italy or even France.
| bilbo0s wrote:
| That's not really true man. I've worked with devs from
| Argentina and Ghana, and let's just say we were all surprised
| at how much the managers at my company were paying to those
| consulting firms. Think devs getting USD350 to USD1500 per
| month while I knew for a fact that USD50 to USD225 per hour
| was being paid out.
|
| I think a lot of devs in the West would be almost shocked at
| the amount of money devs make in other places.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| What differentiates US (most big software names come from
| there) from the rest of the world is their ability to sell.
| There are already enough countries on this planet that can
| produce high quality software that could be sold as hot
| buns.What most of those countries don't have is the huge VC
| industry+ tons of people who know how and who to sell be it B2B
| or B2C. This, however is changing slowly and you can expect
| much more level field over the next 10-15 years.
| PeterisP wrote:
| The value that the role produces, and the growing demand for
| even more software. Currently the companies can make a profit
| paying the current high salaries and selling products, and they
| need more developers - so one can expect that as the price
| difference erodes, it will mostly be by the salaries of the
| Asian developers being brought up to current first world
| levels, not the first world salaries (for software - less so
| for some other jobs) being brought down to the global average.
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| Since no one answered your question the best thing to do is
| become very good at working with end users. BA work isn't the
| same as software development but it is harder to outsource. You
| usually need someone on site who can effectively communicate
| with project stakeholders to capture requirements and write
| them down in a way that developers at these shops can pick them
| up and run with. That is a much needed skill, I've seen many
| BA's make 100k+ at non FAANG companies in cities where the
| median household income is 45k.
| starky wrote:
| My experience with working with Asia off-shoring is with physical
| products, so this was interesting to see the software perspective
| where there are multiple programmers working on something in
| parallel, whereas my experience is more serial with the (English
| speaking) sales contact communicating with the various
| engineering teams as the project gets passed along.
|
| Definitely agree with the can-do attitude of China. Sometimes I'm
| pleasantly surprised, other times a vendor thinks they are doing
| us good and screw us over by completing work before we have
| agreed to it. This is mostly a temporary issue until you build a
| relationship with the vendor (in China, relationship is
| everything) and know each other's expectations.
|
| While I've never worked with an Indian vendor directly, it is
| interesting to hear about how people there have very narrow
| knowledge bases. This is something I've noticed with people I've
| interviewed that are recent immigrants, they know their area, but
| when asked about the rest of what we would be asking them to do
| they have zero clue. This is also (lesser so) a case with recent
| Chinese immigrants. Not great when we are essentially hiring a
| mechanical equivalent of a full stack engineer.
| anthony_barker wrote:
| He misses some stuff.
|
| 1) 4 hours of time overlap rule - you need to have overlap of 4
| hours between teams
|
| 2) Requirements need to be much tighter with outsourcing. Often
| you need a full BA whereas with some devs you can work without a
| formal spec but some wireframes etc
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| No, Troy specifically mentions differing requirements depending
| on the country that the ousource firm is located in.
|
| >Another pattern I found time and time again when outsourcing
| to India was that they'd want really detailed documentation.
| This is always going to be a contentious issue and there are
| many different views of how much should be done under what
| circumstances. But more so in India than the other two
| locations I'll talk about shortly, detail was important to
| them. There were many occasions where we would make assumptions
| that a feature requirement clearly implied certain things only
| to later discover they was deemed "out of scope". Now that can
| happen in any project in any part of the world, but it was
| extremely prevalent in India.
|
| > On the plus side for China though, one of their strengths
| (particularly over India) was the ability to get down to work
| with minimal documentation.
| Ididntdothis wrote:
| I really don't understand why US companies are outsourcing to
| India. The time difference alone pretty much sets you up for fail
| unless people want to be working at midnight all the time. I find
| it much easier to work with Costa Rica it South America where you
| can quickly make calls during the day. Especially with
| outsourcing you need to do a lot of handholding to get things
| going so you need good direct communication.
|
| The whole idea of sending a big pile of requirements and then
| getting something useful back simply doesn't work. You need
| direct communication without middlemen.
| lowercased wrote:
| worked at a place in the south (think Georgia) that opened an
| Indian office. about ~40 devs in the US office, they brought
| in.. 5? to the Indian office. It was primarily for the time
| difference, and their primary role was to triage and research
| issues during the 'off hours'. Anything they couldn't figure
| out bubbled up to the US, usually after several hours of
| initial research. It wasn't a horrible approach, and I think it
| worked OK because it was intentional.
| thrower123 wrote:
| I do a lot of work with a few of the big outfits, as we often get
| pulled in to help setup a software product that they resell to
| Fortune 500 companies as part of their package contracts.
|
| I have never seen a case where they actually add value; it would
| always be much easier if we could just get directly connected
| with the end-customer.
| discreteevent wrote:
| On India: I worked on a project outsourced to one of the big
| companies. A senior engineer there said that when people
| offshore, the person making the decision is a bean counter. So
| they only look at price. They take the cheapest and they get what
| they pay for.
|
| But if they would pay twice that (still at most half their normal
| cost) using a smaller higher quality company they could get a
| much better job done.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Cost can be reported as a simple scalar. Quality cannot. This
| is why at most companies, cost counts far more than quality.
| macjohnmcc wrote:
| The company I formerly worked for outsourced to India and we
| found a lot of accounting irregularities where we were be
| charged twice for the unnamed senior developers and later find
| out that it's the same person and that that person was not even
| spending 100% of their time working on our project. It wasn't a
| complete loss as some people really did a fantastic job but
| overall I'd never recommend it to others.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| > But if they would pay twice that (still at most half their
| normal cost) using a smaller higher quality company they could
| get a much better job done.
|
| The whole problem is nobody can hope to spot the real "smaller,
| higher-quality companies" in that chaotic, offshoring-driven
| environment. Race-to-the-bottom is the equilibrium outcome.
| bradknowles wrote:
| I remember being brought in to operationalize the first version
| of Norton Anti-Virus for Internet E-mail Gateways (NAVIEG) that
| would run on Solaris (this was in 1996). It was outsourced to
| an Indian company because no one in Symantec understood the
| first thing about programming on Unix. Turns out that the guys
| in India didn't understand programming on Unix, either.
|
| The Indian developers basically just transliterated the Windows
| code to Unix, and got it to compile. Then they shipped it.
| That's when the real problems started, and I was brought in.
|
| Now, I've never claimed to be a developer. At the time, I was a
| consultant and Unix sysadmin, but the concept of "DevOps" had
| yet to be born.
|
| What I could tell them was that, in 1996, basing your Unix
| implementation on Solaris 2.5 (not even Solaris 2.5.1) was a
| bad idea, because there was a whole host of things wrong with
| that ancient version of Solaris, and if they wanted to be on
| that platform then they needed to be on a much more modern
| version.
|
| Secondly, threading on Unix at that time was ... problematic
| ... and that was true even on the most modern versions of Unix
| that were available at the time. Multi-process programming
| worked well, however. On Windows, the reverse was apparently
| true. So, naturally the outsourcing developers used threading,
| and they used threading on an ancient version of Unix that had
| about the worst possible implementation of threading. Oy.
|
| Of course, learning these things at this stage didn't help
| Symantec. They had already outsourced their aircraft and gotten
| an Albatross back in return.
|
| I did help them develop a testing regime that could relatively
| accurately simulate a real-world distribution of mail message
| sizes and types, with a real-world distribution of supposedly
| infected messages, and then beat the holy living crap out of
| the server trying to push that volume through as quickly as
| possible.
|
| And I did get called back to teach a class on Unix to the lead
| QA team in Denver, so that they could try to support NAVIEG on
| Solaris 2.5.
|
| But so far as I know, the consulting company I worked for never
| got called back to help them actually fix their design problems
| with the code, and I think that project probably died a pretty
| quick and vicious death.
|
| Also, so far as I know, no one at Symantec ever again tried to
| develop or support any code that would run on any flavor of
| Unix or Unix-like OS.
| mathattack wrote:
| Sometimes the math is "We can do it twice in India and still
| save 50%"
|
| Anyone who has worked with the big vendors knows that the
| correlation between quality and price is very loose. The lowest
| cost provider is rarely great, but the high cost provider can
| also be selling you a lot of juniors.
| raincom wrote:
| Exactly this. Usually, they have a couple of guys who are
| really good in that team, along with lots of juniors who are
| there for billable hours.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| That's pretty much the model amongs most vendors. Just so
| recently we were implementing a new system. Our account is
| small,so obviously we don't get the level of people some
| big corp would do. A junior,yet capable, consultant was
| working on the majority of the project. However as soon as
| we started having some more serious technical issues, it
| was like 'emm, I'm not sure'. Then we end up on a
| conference call, 8 people in total. Bloody hell,I thought
| I'll pull all my hair at the end of the call. Absolutely no
| value or capabilities to explain how we get out of this
| situation. Eventually, after our CEO suggested we drop this
| thing all together, we did get some senior person involved.
| Honestly, if I'd ever had a business,I'd hire on spot.The
| ability to talk to different business people in a way they
| could understand, technical knowledge and business acumen
| was fantastic. Shame all companies only have one or two of
| these people...
| ta1234567890 wrote:
| Sounds exactly like law firms.
| mc32 wrote:
| They demo the skilled people and once they have the account
| they turn it over to the juniors...
|
| But that probably works in most cases/places anyway.
| makr17 wrote:
| Yeah, but so does every US-based consulting outfit I've
| ever seen... IBM, Oracle, Accenture. The knowledgable
| Senior Dev answering your questions during the bid goes
| away _quickly_ once you sign. They're off to convince the
| next sucker...
| bradknowles wrote:
| That's why you write the contract to the outsourcing
| company so that you lock in those experienced people for
| an extended period of time -- like years.
|
| But then the price mysteriously increases to the point
| where you might as well have hired them on-shore and
| you're not saving any money.
|
| So, do you want to save money by offshoring everything,
| or do you want to get good people to actually do the real
| work that needs to be done?
| detaro wrote:
| > _Anyone who has worked with the big vendors knows_
|
| Probably why parent mentioned finding a smaller company. I
| don't know about the Indian outsourcing market specifically,
| but in many sectors it seems a few mid-sized companies are
| the best for this sort of thing.
|
| Which also means you need to find the right one for your
| problem, your purchasing department won't be set up with
| them, and you won't be able to just order as much capacity as
| you want, so getting there is hard.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.techspot.com/amp/news/79848.
| ..
| markkanof wrote:
| This isn't exclusively an Indian outsourcing issue. I used to
| do work for a small US based contracting company. At the time
| I was mid to senior with about 10 years experience. On all
| projects they would present me to the client as the level of
| developer that would work on their project, but would then
| also assign a few just out of bootcamp devs to work on the
| project and we were all billed out at the same high rate.
| iamsb wrote:
| It is quite interesting to re-read this after the zoom ipo. Zoom
| built a huge team in China, effectively outsourcing most of the
| development to lower cost countries, that gave them leverage in
| terms of being able to deploy capital more efficiently.
|
| There are certainly ways to work around most of the problems the
| author outlines. They are definitely real problems, same as
| spending 5x for onshore resources. Ideally you should build
| onshore teams, if you can spend the money. But if you can not,
| then do not get discouraged by these problems. Employee churns
| are not that difficult to mitigate, just matter contracting
| properly with the employees and providing enough consideration in
| the contracts.
| throwawayesteu wrote:
| How to do the outsourcing business if you want to provide premium
| service? Even if the field requires specialization, say machine
| learning / data engineering, it's hard to justify the price that
| is 40% more than average for the area (say Eastern Europe).
| Example: I work for a company that does ML/DE services, and I
| believe that everyone in the company (we're small company in
| Eastern Europe) tries their best to do the great job and do what
| is best for our clients; plus seniority and talent is way above
| average for the market (mostly due to specialization). But we're
| still having hard time increasing our hourly rate.
|
| What is something that we can do that would say "these people are
| worth it, let's go with them even though they are more
| expensive"?
| cosmodisk wrote:
| Higher prices!= higher quality. Here's how your post reads: we
| have senior devs+ we try charge 40% more,yet clients don't buy
| in. You know what? Every shop in town has senior devs and most
| of them are passionate. Depending on which Eastern European
| country you are based in, even the entire team full of PhDs in
| ML with 10 years experience may not sound that extraordinary.
| You need to find the reason why you are ACTUALLY better than
| your competition.Do you have tons of white papers or cases
| studies on your website that clearly show how and why you are
| solving these problems? What are you doing differently compared
| to the guys from the shop across the road? You need to be very
| very comfortable with saying " fuck yes, we are 40,50 maybe
| even 100% more expensive than any other company you'll be
| speaking, but here's 25 reasons why you search for ML experts
| stops here". These things are learnable, however if there's no
| strong sales culture in the business,I'd advice to start
| looking for someone who could deliver these messages to your
| prospects.My experience: work for a company that operates in a
| low entry, saturated market and sells services almost 3 times
| the average price in the country.
| shruubi wrote:
| I just came out of being forced into running an offshore team
| from the Phillipines for roughly six-ish months, my experience
| was that they were very affable with good english skills and
| worked hard, there was a noticeable problem with technical skill
| which caused a number of bugs to occur to the point where I would
| just spend the time fixing them myself than throw them back at
| the team where they would cause more problems.
|
| The biggest problem however, was that no matter how many times I
| asked or provided documentation/feedback, they would ignore
| established coding standards and established processes and just
| do things their way, and when I would ask about this, I would
| just get shrugs.
|
| Finally, we got saddled with a "Project Manager", which I put in
| quotes as their contribution to the process was giving daily
| excuses as to not turn up to our daily progress calls, and the
| ones he did turn up to, he would visibly fall asleep. When I
| eventually pulled him up on this his response was that "he wasn't
| directly paid for but an included part of the cost so you can't
| complain about what you get."
|
| Admittedly all of the above is rather negative, but I think this
| highlights the "get what you pay for" aspect of offshore
| outsourcing.
| cbg0 wrote:
| I work remotely from Europe for a North American company, so
| here's my two cents on this topic:
|
| Having cost as the reason for going with remote devs is a very
| bad idea in my opinion, and it should only be seen as an added
| benefit. You don't want to hire cheap devs because they usually
| suck, and great developers will cost you quite a bit regardless
| of where they live.
|
| While it may be difficult to compete with the huge corporations
| in places like SF, NYC, Seattle, where these competing
| corporations offer huge salaries, great benefits and have brand
| recognition, there's quite a lot of value to be had with setting
| up shop somewhere remote, where there's lower competition and
| where you can offer above average salaries to attract top talent
| in the area. Ultimately, every company says that they only hire
| the best, but unless you're paying top dollar in your area,
| you're most likely not hiring only the best.
|
| I believe that most good developers will want to be part of a
| stable company that is actually building amazing things, instead
| of being part of an outsourcing company where they get passed
| around from project to project, and their resume will perpetually
| read "Software Engineer at Outsourcing Company Ltd." - most would
| trade that in a heartbeat for one of the FAANG companies.
|
| If you want to have the best kind of success with remote devs,
| don't outsource, invest a bit more and set up an actual office
| and hire the people directly, people that want to have a career
| with your company, and not a contract for an unknown period of
| time, which they likely won't be able to put on their resume.
| numbsafari wrote:
| I think this is a really valuable perspective. Would be curious
| to hear from more folks on "the other side" about their
| experiences. I've often considered doing the expat thing and
| trying to work in or setup such a shop.
| british_india wrote:
| Exhibit A for the dangers of outsourcing software development:
| Boeing's offshoring of the 737 MAX software.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Hiring good offshore developers directly as remote employees is a
| much better option, in my experience.
|
| It requires more up front work to identify, hire, and retain the
| remote employees, but you need far fewer developers when you can
| appeal to the best developers who know what they're doing.
|
| This doesn't work if your company has any attachment to
| headcount, though. It can be a tough sell to hire 3 remote
| employees for the price of a cheap team of 10 from an outsourcing
| firm if your company only looks at the numbers.
| MarkMc wrote:
| > It can be a tough sell to hire 3 remote employees for the
| price of a cheap team of 10 from an outsourcing firm if your
| company only looks at the numbers.
|
| Can you expand on this? I would have thought it was cheaper to
| hire the remote employees directly than hire the outsourcing
| company...
| chii wrote:
| The premise is that an excellent developer can command a high
| price, whether remote or not. Some developers place a premium
| in remote friendliness, and thus allow a slightly lower
| salary for it, but only up to some amount.
| ska wrote:
| I suspect the argument is that workers are just not fungible,
| but the outsourcing approach sort of assumes they are.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| Pretty much my experience re Indian outsourcing. What I used to
| find most annoying is that 'manager' mentality: I appreciate a
| lot of people like to boss people around and,as the author
| states, it's kind of safer (and better paid) step on a corporate
| ladder, but boy some of them are useless.. You talk to the guy,
| he agrees to pretty much anything,even If I'd ask to build a lift
| to mars.Then eventually he comes back with dev's questions.I
| provide very detail and explicit info on what I need(For anyone
| who has any knowledge in the tech they used it would almost be
| like asking to write a couple of loops).Again lots of
| yes,yes,yes.Then silence and again even more questions. Manager's
| function is absolutely useless in this case. Also, if the churn
| rate is low, the companies usually have very capable people who
| tend to know their shit.
| crystaldev wrote:
| It's probably because engineers are not good at dealing with
| customers.
|
| Edit: Apparently nobody gets this reference anymore, and I'm
| old.
| bradknowles wrote:
| No, we're not.
|
| And don't you even THINK of stealing my red stapler. ;)
| alatkins wrote:
| Take my upvote fellow oldie. Office Space can't be mandatory
| school curriculum any more :-)
| inkeddeveloper wrote:
| I'm a people person, damnit!
| specialp wrote:
| I think too they tend to give you their worst teams to start to
| see if they can get it done. We had a team from India yes, yes,
| yes us all the time, and then ask loads of questions 36 hours
| later that showed they had no idea of what was going on and had
| no hope of delivering. It would continue like this as it seemed
| like they always wanted to have the ball in your court and wait
| on you. The day + latency was killing us too and eventually we
| were a week from deadline and I thought they'd never get it
| done.
|
| Then they must have brought in the SEAL team six of Indian devs
| and just got it done with no further questions asked. I was
| really surprised.
| reaperducer wrote:
| There just seem to be some cultures where saying "no" is
| difficult or taboo.
|
| I've never worked with Indians, but I've had it happen to me
| with people in both Thailand and Austria. The Austrian one was
| particularly bad because it involved the movement of people and
| physical goods. Everything was "yes, yes, yes" until the day of
| execution, when it was radio silence.
| dfcowell wrote:
| I can highly recommend "The Culture Map" which I'm about half
| way through right now. Really helped me wrap my head around
| this, and other cross-cultural communication pitfalls.
| admn2 wrote:
| I heard Argentina as a popular place for "near-shoring", which
| likely wasn't very popular when this was written 3 years ago.
| Anyone here been using Argentinian tech talent?
| numbsafari wrote:
| When I worked as a consultant, mostly remote, working from
| Argentina was awesome. Buenos Aires is a great city, and the
| time difference is perfect for the lifestyle, as you are
| generally slightly ahead of the US, so you can play late and
| sleep in a bit while still getting a normal business hours day
| in.
| blaser-waffle wrote:
| My org has a lot of talent in LATAM. Argentina is onerous due
| to the ever changing financial situation (taxes, regs,
| currency, etc.). We do have a few bodies down there, though,
| and general consensus is they're competent.
|
| Chile and Mexico are generally more stable, and both the
| Chilean and Mexicans I've worked with remotely have been solid.
| We had a technical (data center) team in Mexico that only had 1
| English speaker but still got stuff done quickly and timely.
|
| Also heard good things about the Zona America in Uruguay. No
| direct experience with it, however. Part of me thinks about
| sneaking away down there for a few years...
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| I've worked with a number of Argentinian developers through
| using Avanade and Accenture on projects. The developers were
| great, even spoke decent English, but since it was through
| Avanade or Accenture, after 3 years of the managerial-
| interference, overhead, cost overruns, and contract disputes
| with what is considered in-scope/out-of-scope, the projects
| were eventually canceled. Had we just been able to hire the
| developers on an hourly basis, everyone would have been
| happy... well except the sales managers, delivery managers,
| development managers, and project managers.
|
| That said, I didn't care for the way that our company was
| billed $75-150/hr for a developer that makes $350-1200/mo, and
| that the developers made so little when their managers were
| billing so high.
|
| Early in my career, I was livid when I found out that my time
| was billed to the client 3x what I made, so I cant imagine how
| demoralizing it would be knowing you are paid 20x less than you
| are billed out.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| This, sometimes has very interesting consequences. A friend
| worked for a company that basically moved parts of
| sales/customer service to a Northen African country.They
| hired people on a few hundred dollars a month(if that much)
| to sell high ticket hotel bookings sometimes going for
| thousands/day.The team struggled to comprehend that anyone
| could get a room that costs 10 times more their monthly
| wage.This highly affected their ability to service/sell.
| Eventually the entire thing got canned and moved to Europe.
| Ididntdothis wrote:
| Pen testers. They were very good and the time zone makes things
| much easier compared to India.
| powvans wrote:
| I'm based in the US and worked with a remote team in Argentina
| from 2013 to 2015. They were fantastic. Most of the team was
| based out of the company's office in Cordoba, but we also had
| some remote devs who lived in Buenos Aires rotate into the
| team. The offshore firm took great care to make sure that
| everyone on the team was well trained on the specifics of our
| project and general development processes.
|
| Last I heard they were purchased by Mercado Libre in what I'd
| assume was an acquihire.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| I worked very briefly at a place (which was run poorly, btw,
| which is why I left), that used Argentinian devs for some of
| the work. The devs seemed good, and the similarity in time-
| zones compared to U.S. helped a lot with communication and
| coordination.
|
| I did hear, however, some discussion in the office that there
| was a strong suspicion that the Argentinians were working on
| other customers' projects during the time they were supposedly
| 100% on our project.
| dang wrote:
| Discussed at the time:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12923925
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| The worst I've ever seen: Not only did the contractor deliver a
| buggy, half-finished product, he also used our printer to print
| out an offer to a competitor to sell them our source code!
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2020-02-24 23:00 UTC)