[HN Gopher] What Happened When Tulsa Paid People to Work Remotely
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What Happened When Tulsa Paid People to Work Remotely
Author : vo2maxer
Score : 66 points
Date : 2020-03-01 18:39 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.citylab.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.citylab.com)
| leggomylibro wrote:
| Smaller cities and towns are fantastic, both in terms of
| community and cost. Remote work incentives like this seem like a
| great way to draw people to less populated areas.
|
| Honestly, I think that a lot of folks who feel stressed and
| cramped in metro areas like SF, Seattle, NYC, etc. might really
| enjoy living in a small town.
|
| But a lot of states in the Midwest still present serious cultural
| barriers to many such people. Racism and bigotry against LGBT
| folks is less common than it once was, but it's still prevalent.
| Communities are usually less secular, with religion playing a
| huge part in peoples' social lives; sometimes it's almost a
| prerequisite to "joining the community". Pot can get you serious
| jail time. Raising well-adjusted kids can be harder because of
| how insular suburban areas are. And so on.
|
| It's not like that everywhere, and most people are kind and
| empathetic at heart, but definitely spend some time in an area
| before you consider taking a stipend to move there. Places like
| Central Washington, upstate New York, and Eastern Colorado are
| hidden gems, but having spent a bit of time in Tulsa and speaking
| as someone with a slight countercultural bent, you would have to
| pay me a lot more than $10k to move there.
| thedance wrote:
| "Serious cultural barriers" undersells it. They're out there in
| Tulsa right now trying to figure out how many black people are
| buried in unmarked mass graves resulting from the deadliest
| race riot in American history.
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/02/03/tulsa-mass...
| datashow wrote:
| "Racism and bigotry against LGBT folks is less common than it
| once was, but it's still prevalent".
|
| "prevalent"? Like how? I think you are making up. Still exist?
| Definitely yes. Prevalent? No way. Unless you have a very
| different kind sense of "prevalent".
|
| Actually people in small towns in general are much nicer than
| big cities and usually they don't care about your skin color or
| whatever. And they in general appreciate "a slight
| countercultural bent", unless you have a different sense of
| "slight".
| pfdietz wrote:
| As you allude to there, a small city that is very LGBTQ
| friendly is Ithaca, NY, where I live.
|
| I recently read that a tourism survey here found that 20% of
| the visitors are in that classification, some four times the
| national average.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| I wouldn't mind living in a smaller city (though honestly Tulsa
| ain't that small), but yes there's the cultural issues you
| bring up, and other problems as well.
|
| For example, the US has generally awful land use/transportation
| setups even in progressive major cities, and in smaller/less
| progressive ones, it goes from generally awful to extra
| terrible. Walking for transportation is unpleasant and near-
| useless, biking is uncomfortable and dangerous, and public
| transportation is sparse, slow, and unreliable. Housing options
| are usually either a single-family home in a super low density
| area that exacerbates the above, or an apartment in a very ugly
| large complex in a neighborhood with terrible schools.
| Obviously generalizing here, but that's what you see most of
| the time.
|
| To demonstrate that I'm not using these superlatives for no
| reason: I can't find stats for Tulsa, but Oklahoma City's
| combined mode share for commuters who use walking, biking, or
| public transit is a massive 2.2 percent, and Tulsa's is
| probably similar. I find that people are pretty rational when
| it comes to day to day transportation choices; if that few
| people are doing something other than driving, there's a very
| good reason for it.
|
| Right now I live in the outskirts of Munich in a backyard
| duplex (there's a 6-unit complex up front), a type of housing
| option that largely doesn't even exist in the states. Plenty of
| people around here drive, but there's also a few different
| grocery options within easy walking distance (and a ton within
| easy biking distance), public transit is fairly dense and
| reliable (extremely dense and reliable by US standards), all
| three of those things feel safe even with kids. And Munich
| isn't some weird outlier in Germany, the other cities I've
| visited have felt quite similar overall. I wish US cities could
| stop being such a dumpster fire when it comes to land use and
| transportation, but there's so much cultural momentum there.
| tjr225 wrote:
| > biking is uncomfortable and dangerous
|
| I live in a college town in Michigan and work for a company
| in San Francisco.
|
| I don't find biking to be uncomfortable here whatsoever. In
| fact there are maybe a half dozen to a dozen coffee shops I
| can work from that are around two miles away from my house
| and I bike to them all the time- even in the winter if the
| roads aren't icy.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| There are definitely confident cyclists who profess to be
| comfortable in some areas of the US. Ask them if they'd be
| comfortable with a relative who's 8 or 80 biking around
| independently in the same area and they usually become a
| lot less confident. Then look at what the actual data
| shows: how many people bike there? The numbers are nearly
| always dismal: even supposed cycling champion Portland has
| half Munich's numbers, and Munich isn't even trying very
| hard. Portland is quarter-assing things _at best_ , and it
| goes rapidly downhill from there.
|
| Or if you want something more concrete to work with: how
| many mile lanes of protected bike lanes or off-street bike
| paths are there in your town? How does that compare to the
| number of mile lanes for sidewalks or general vehicle
| lanes? What percentage of controlled intersections use a
| protected design? How wide are the roads? What's the speed
| limit, and how fast do people actually drive? How common
| are pedestrian islands? How sharp are the curb corners? How
| many of the painted bike lanes in the door zone? How common
| are walk/bike cut-throughs? What percentage of intersection
| lights have a marker for bikes?
|
| Most cyclists who talk about how comfortable they are in
| the US don't realize just how bad it is there. Yes, you can
| still often get by; I certainly managed, in the bay area,
| and Seattle, and Utah, and even Alabama. But it was still
| total garbage compared to the places that take biking
| seriously (which is exactly why so few people do it in the
| states).
|
| We live in an area that is, by most Americans' standards,
| fairly dense, and yet we started having our son bike to
| school a mile away, by himself, when he was 7, and he
| started biking alongside us to a kindergarten 2 miles away
| when he was 5. He's 8 now, and he sometimes bikes himself
| to a friend's house, or a park, or a grocery store or
| bakery for an errand. That kind of thing is almost unheard
| of in the US these days.
| thedance wrote:
| Some of the smaller American cities are also the best for
| bicycling. Davis and Madison come to mind. Most mid-sized
| or large cities are outright hellscapes, including most of
| the cities in the SF area and even most parts of SF itself.
| A good way to identify a decent bicycling city it to find
| demographic data on mode share and break it down by gender
| and age. If your bikers are all 25-year-old males, it's
| probably not a great bike town.
| sev0 wrote:
| Ann Arbor is a bit of an outlier in that as far as Michigan
| cities go, it's relatively bike-friendly. It's still
| remarkably suburban in most areas, though; good luck biking
| to a grocery store that isn't out in Pittsfield Township.
| tjr225 wrote:
| I don't live in Ann Arbor. This probably speaks to the
| number of bikeable college towns, though.
| tomdell wrote:
| I would argue that smaller metros in America have a much more
| diverse housing stock than what you say here - while there
| are certainly plenty of houses in far-flung, low-density
| neighborhoods and ugly apartments in massive complexes, there
| are also typically more appealing urban neighborhoods in the
| main city (and often in the larger suburbs) with a good mix
| of businesses, community buildings, transit, small apartment
| buildings, townhouses and single-family homes all
| intermingling. Though these neighborhoods are often desirable
| as a result and it can take some waiting for an appropriate
| listing to go for sale, rentals are usually in high supply.
| jpindar wrote:
| In New England, what we call tripledeckers - three story
| buildings, usually with three or six apartments - are very
| common.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-decker_(house)
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Yes, New England is the biggest exception there,
| especially streetcar suburbs.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Well, that's not what I've seen. Townhomes and smaller
| (non-hideous[1]) apartment complexes -- missing middle
| housing -- certainly exist, but they're fairly uncommon.
| They make up a very small percentage of what housing stock
| is available.
|
| [1] To explain what I mean by this, here in Germany it's
| very common to have smaller, say 8-12 unit apartment
| complexes that are _not_ surrounded by a small sea of
| asphalt for parking; the parking is completely underground,
| so up front you have just maybe a small strip of greenery.
| And then they actually have a good-sized shared backyard,
| and the building itself _doesn 't_ look like it's trying
| its best to ape Soviet-era brutalist apartment blocks.
| standardUser wrote:
| I can't get over the cultural issues. Life's too short to spend
| my time around people who are devoutly religious or think Trump
| is great for America. Let alone the backwards attitudes on
| sexuality and gender.
|
| Maybe if I was married I could imagine it for a short time. But
| as a single guy I don't think I'd find the dating pool I'm
| looking for in a place like Tulsa. And I sure as hell would not
| raise children in that kind of community.
| fossuser wrote:
| I'd have a hard time moving back to a smaller city type place
| because of the negatives you describe, but also because I think
| it's like putting a handicap on development (not a great place
| to raise kids).
|
| I grew up in a nice suburb outside Buffalo in upstate New York
| and I had a pleasant childhood there, but it's a desert of
| ideas and a hard place to get exposure to smart people
| learning/doing things. Not impossible, but much harder. The bay
| area is on the other extreme end in terms of opportunity and
| being able to learn from people. I think you grow faster when
| you have more interaction with smart people, and in a place
| where there is a lot of growth there are a lot of opportunities
| for that.
|
| Though there are risks to any ideological bubble (and SF tends
| to have cultural issues that can lean similarly extreme to a
| small town) - that seems generally contained. There's still a
| lot more opportunity to learn from people building things here,
| and growing up here it'd be easier to learn more, faster.
|
| It's also nice not having to waste time on things like
| religious discussions, the bar of interesting is generally set
| higher because there's already pretty good consensus. When the
| base-line is more of a rational/scientific world view you can
| tackle more interesting problems (and conversation).
|
| Housing is extremely cheap where I grew up, but it's not worth
| the trade-off. Another benefit of being in an intellectual and
| economic hub is that there's a feedback loop that continues to
| attract more people all the time. This also means your kids are
| more likely to stick around (everyone I was friends with that
| went on to do interesting things left Buffalo). Though if local
| communities continue to refuse to build housing this may become
| less true over time.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| > Another benefit of being in an intellectual and economic
| hub is that there's a feedback loop that continues to attract
| more people all the time.
|
| I get what you mean, but hoo boy, as a bay area native, this
| most certainly has _not_ happened there. Almost everyone I
| knew growing up that doesn 't work in tech themselves now has
| long since left (as well as a fair number who do work in
| tech, like me).
|
| What you're saying is accurate, but if the area chooses to
| fight its own growth, like what the bay area has done, it
| makes it much harder for people to stick around.
| fossuser wrote:
| I think it actually has happened here, but now instead of
| being able to own a house or live in our own place we live
| with 3-4 roommates in shared housing or apartments.
|
| There's still a lot of people moving here, but I think
| you're right - it's in spite of all of the bad housing
| policy trying to prevent it.
|
| I also think you're right that it's selected out anyone who
| can't command a high salary.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| > I think it actually has happened here
|
| > it's selected out anyone who can't command a high
| salary.
|
| Yeah, see, these can't both be true at the same time.
|
| What's happened is that the bay area _is_ an attractive
| place to live and stick around...except that the insane
| housing costs mean that people can 't really afford it
| unless they live the college student lifestyle
| indefinitely. So that one single issue effs up the whole
| thing.
| walshemj wrote:
| the quote "With its vaulted ceilings, rows of elbow-to-elbow
| workbenches"
|
| Would make me run away screaming.
| smelendez wrote:
| Tulsa should be on more people's radar as a vacation destination.
| It's a fascinating city with good museums, galleries (including
| contemporary Native American art) and parks, a welcoming
| population and very interesting architecture (art deco downtown
| and Oral Roberts University's gonzo Christian version of
| midcentury modernism).
|
| There's a strong local music and bar scene and good vintage
| shopping, and some great barbecue, kind of an Austin alternative.
| texasbigdata wrote:
| Having been a few times.... This is a wild exaggeration.
| hoten wrote:
| Which internet stranger am I to believe?
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| The one that actually lived there.
| iso947 wrote:
| Surely the opinions of visitors are more important when
| looking to visit somewhere.
|
| I wouldn't ask tourists what it's like to live in NY, but
| I wouldn't ask someone from Queens of its worth visiting.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Some people are perpetual tourists who go to museums and
| the like while living someplace for a few years. Such
| people tend to have more familiarity with touristy stuff
| than either one-time visitors or regular/typical
| residents.
| smelendez wrote:
| You need to dig a bit but I spent a month there and was never
| short of things to see and do.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| I mean this is probably true of literally any city medium
| sized and bigger, as long as you're not too picky.
|
| In the modern age, a city with 200,000 people is considered
| not major, only medium sized, but if you think about it
| that's still a _shit-ton_ of people! So of course there 's
| still a lot of things to do around. Middle Ages London
| wasn't that big!
| Xcelerate wrote:
| I wonder if the trend toward remote work is temporary, or if it
| will continue long-term. The plot in that article shows that the
| percentage of remote workers employed full time seems to be
| increasing fairly quickly.
|
| If this is a real trend, my second question then is whether it
| will have an effect on the current migration away from rural
| communities toward cities. There are many beautiful places around
| the world that I think people would prefer to live in if they
| could work remotely. (Environmentally speaking though, I'm not
| sure it would be great to have huge numbers of people moving to
| all of the most beautiful spots on earth).
| tjr225 wrote:
| > Environmentally speaking though, I'm not sure it would be
| great to have huge numbers of people moving to all of the most
| beautiful spots on earth
|
| I think you'd find the opposite to be true. People would live
| closer to their families while also tapping job markets that
| are only available far away.
|
| Now that I live closer to family nobody needs to fly to visit
| each other. It has probably cut down on demand for over 6 cross
| country flights per year which I would think is very good for
| the planet.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| > (Environmentally speaking though, I'm not sure it would be
| great to have huge numbers of people moving to all of the most
| beautiful spots on earth).
|
| Nailed it. People often move to rural areas because they love
| nature, but ironically this is actually a terrible thing _for_
| nature.
|
| Not saying everyone has to live in skyscrapers, but denser
| urban living is definitely better for the environment, most of
| the time, due to both energy efficiency and reduced need for
| land.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| If they can work remotely, people also move closer to family
| once they have kids, not everyone moves to Barcelona or
| Thailand.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| I'm not sure what this has to do with my comment about
| people moving to rural areas because they love nature.
| finphil wrote:
| Good read!
| vermooten wrote:
| I Tulsa. Shame I live in UK.
| Keverw wrote:
| hmm paying people sounds interesting way to combat the brain
| drain problem. Kinda shameful though tech seems to only be in a
| handful of tech hubs. Seems like if I had a startup going, I'd be
| more likely to be funded in Texas or California than where I'm
| originally from. Seems like a lot of areas have leaders that
| don't even care about startups or tech... or maybe just
| statistically they don't think they can attract tech maybe?
|
| Was watching a news segment about startups in Cleveland a while
| back and one of the big things is the lack of investors, so
| people are forced to leave their family and community to go
| elsewhere if they want to be successful. Not from Cleveland but
| it sounds like a similar story in a bunch of places.
|
| Then probably smart people feeling disconnected or lonely because
| of the lack of resources and startup/tech culture. The census I
| think is going to be a big blow for places like Ohio and other
| places, no wonder younger people are moving for better
| opportunities, and then when they are ready to start their own
| families, wonder if their kids and future kids will stick around?
| Sounds like then Cities are losing generations of people, so long
| term this is going to compound and hurt cities and states even
| more for their inaction. Plus I think weather plays a bit of a
| role too, not all just economics - but then again there's a lady
| I know from Texas who wants to move to Ohio because she likes the
| cold, while I rather like the warm so sounds like we rather just
| swap places haha...
|
| Plus people are anti-tech. Some people like their quiet small
| towns, and affordable houses. Tech money flows and then the rents
| and house prices go up. and then people stereotype tech people
| too. So sorta like a not in my backyard thing too. Not everyone
| wants tech I guess, so maybe it's easier to just move elsewhere
| than trying to turn your own community into the vision you have.
| Then people don't trust tech, I used Apple Pay at like one of the
| only places that take it and the lady commented on it about not
| trusting it. Then I was listening to a podcast segment and I
| guess some college in Michigan installed Apple Pay to pay for
| things and found sales went up, I mentioned that I thought that
| was cool and someone said they wouldn't trust their credit card
| with a vending machine... When I think it's, in fact, more secure
| than an actual credit card, but then again even the basic idea of
| public-private key cryptography goes over people's heads.
|
| I kinda feel like if I grew up and lived in a better area for
| tech, I'd probably be more successful personally, meetups and
| networking with other like-minded people I think would help. Plus
| I kinda feel like I have trust problems, people online I was
| going to work on projects with me but some people are so flakey
| or just disappears instead of staying committed. Like wanted to
| do something media related years ago, and the person just
| disappeared on me. Then was doing another project where someone
| was going to focus on sales, and agreed to give them a % of the
| company but can't seem to get ahold of him(But I know now that's
| what vesting is for). So seems like a recurring theme I always
| get flaky people. So I feel like real in person could be a
| benefit too in that regard. It seems more real too, and plus
| people try to read emotions and stuff in between the lines - but
| even then there are stories of people working offline and it not
| working out too... So I guess that's why it's important to get
| the right structure, and contracts and stuff in place. Focusing
| on the tech part for my own project first on my own but hoping to
| take Startup School and pick up on things before I involve others
| just because I don't want to get burned. But personally I think I
| rather just bootstrap and own 100%, and then pay contractors or
| employees when profitable to work on features I don't want to
| personally do, so less conflicts and not slowing down making
| decisions, could consult people for advice but I'd have the final
| say.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Network/agglomeration effects are a natural thing for many
| industries, especially creative/information workers. And while
| remote tools are improving, it's still hard to beat on-site
| collaboration for coordinating teams.
|
| If Google or Amazon or whoever could get enough skilled people
| to move to random other cities, they would, because that would
| obviously save them a lot of money, both in salaries and office
| rent. The fact that, for the most part, they stubbornly stick
| to pricey tech hubs is itself quite telling.
| ummonk wrote:
| As an atheist Indian-American who spent some of his childhood in
| Oklahoma, there is no way I'd move to Tulsa. Despite being rather
| socially conservative, I just would not fit in in Tulsa as well
| as in a liberal cosmopolitan place. And then you add in a lack of
| intellectual stimulation and it is even more dreary.
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