[HN Gopher] MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the sem...
___________________________________________________________________
MIT moves all classes online for the rest of the semester
Author : ryeights
Score : 207 points
Date : 2020-03-10 21:15 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (web.mit.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (web.mit.edu)
| itronitron wrote:
| is this move to protect the students or the faculty?
| wcarss wrote:
| this is to protect the health care system and all of the
| residents of the region, by reducing the density of a very
| large very dense, externally densely connected and high travel
| community in advance of a serious epidemic that may (likely
| will) require more intensive care beds than the region has to
| provide.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Everybody, including those not on campus.
| aquova wrote:
| I can see why the university is taking the actions that it is
| doing, but on the other hand, if I were still and undergrad, and
| suddenly told that I had to pack up all my stuff and move within
| the next 3 days, I can only imagine the chaos that entails. Every
| student on campus now has to suddenly not only find a place to
| stay, but also a way to move everything on short notice.
| piannucci wrote:
| I think the idea is you leave stuff in your dorm room that you
| don't need right away, but yeah. Wow.
|
| (btw some of the MIT dorms have storage space in the basement)
| the_svd_doctor wrote:
| Ar Harvard (same thing happening) from what I've read on
| their website, you need to get rid of all your stuff like in
| an usual move out.
| neltnerb wrote:
| during midterms. with the expectation that either they or
| parents are rich enough to afford flights somewhere else on
| three day notice.
| londons_explore wrote:
| I'll be booking a greyhound bus to a far off place with cheap
| rent and good WiFi...
| jacquesm wrote:
| It's a very smart decision. You have to imagine the chaos that
| entails vs the chaos that could entail if they didn't. Err on
| the side of caution with this stuff.
| atomicUpdate wrote:
| > vs the chaos that could entail if they didn't
|
| A campus full of runny noses for a couple weeks? These are
| overwhelmingly young people of which the vast majority would
| be perfectly fine.
| jacquesm wrote:
| What's the typical age of MIT professors?
|
| What's the typical age of the students parents?
|
| What would happen if a good 5% of them have more than a
| runny nose, end up in intensive care and there is a
| shortage of beds?
|
| Go read up for a bit on what is happening in Italy, then
| check where your country is and advance 4 weeks. See if you
| still think 'runny noses' is a good analogy.
| chickenpotpie wrote:
| I don't know if it's fair to compare MIT to Italy. Italy
| has a very aging population and MIT is very young and
| Boston has some of the best healthcare in the country.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The question is whether or not you are willing to take
| that chance. The people responsible decided - rightly, in
| my opinion - that they do not want that responsibility.
|
| Risk = impact times likelihood.
| enitihas wrote:
| They would overwhelm the local medical system, making it
| impossible to care for the extreme cases.
| whymauri wrote:
| I'm by no means an expert, but...
|
| Is it a good idea to send a campus of young potential
| carriers from an emergency zone [0] to the rest of the
| nation, if not the world? MIT and Harvard may be setting a
| precedent in the world's largest college town that the status
| quo is to send thousands of travelers from a disease
| epicenter to lesser-affected areas. I'm genuinely concerned -
| not for my health as a student, but for how I might be
| impacting the health of the geographies I'm returning to. Am
| I misguided in this?
|
| [0] https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/03/10/coronavirus-
| latest-ma...
| jacquesm wrote:
| They're not potential carriers. They are potential _future_
| problems and concentrating so many people that are so
| mobile is currently a very large risk.
|
| Right now the chances of many of them being infected are
| still relatively low. Give it a few weeks and it is pretty
| much a certainty.
| chrisco255 wrote:
| Every report I've read shows the risk factor for young adults
| is extremely low, and probably no worse than the ordinary
| flu. Closing down the school for a whole semester seems like
| an overreaction.
| allovernow wrote:
| It's about containing the spread to spare risky populations
| and minimize hospital overload.
|
| Also the bit about being no worse than the flu is not true
| for any age group.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Young adults interact with people who are not young adults.
| Young adults that need not be ill might end up in an ICU
| unit that an older person with a weaker immune system could
| have used to their advantage.
|
| As long as there is no vaccine this is going to be a huge
| exercise in resource allocation.
| chrisco255 wrote:
| Wouldn't it make sense for high risk individuals to self-
| quarantine and for the rest of society to carry on? There
| may not be a vaccine for at least another year. They've
| never successfully produced a vaccine for any
| coronavirus, whether that's SARS or the common cold.
| xenihn wrote:
| Beats getting quarantined.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| They might still get quarantined. Given the state of testing
| in the US, who knows if few days from now they won't discover
| there was a carrier on the campus.
| grimjack00 wrote:
| > who knows if few days from now they won't discover there
| was a carrier on the campus.
|
| And by that time, most of the student body (with who knows
| how many asymptomatic carriers) will have been widely
| dispersed.
| avocado4 wrote:
| If I'm a poor student without a place to go I can imagine
| being quarantined in your dorm room with WiFi is not so bad
| at all.
| tekacs wrote:
| They're providing packing materials and helping with the move.
|
| Financially, they say:
|
| > We understand that being asked to leave campus may pose a
| serious financial hardship for certain individuals. Students
| will receive a follow up communication on this matter.
|
| It's unclear what their solution is, but they seem to have
| thought about it...
| r00fus wrote:
| The unclarity is unsettling. I imagine many will want to fly
| back to their parents home but may be barred from doing so.
|
| Was evicting a large populace a good idea? Aren't there other
| options?
| ajross wrote:
| > The unclarity is unsettling.
|
| The _situation_ is unsettling. Realistically MIT made the
| right broad decision here, I think we can all agree on
| that. Classrooms (most of them) are an inherently remotable
| environment. Lecture halls and giant shared dormitories and
| shared meal facilities are just not a safe environment in a
| pandemic.
|
| They made the right call. Demanding that they do it with
| perfect bureaucratic finesse is a bit much. Over the coming
| months, _all of us are going to be asked to undergo some
| hardship_ , there is no getting away from that. And
| realistically that hardship not going to be distributed
| fairly. We all need to do the best we can and help where
| it's possible.
| rurp wrote:
| It would be nice if they had thought about it enough to offer
| some sort of concrete solution. I can only imagine how
| stressful and infuriating the situation MIT is imposing on
| its students must be for many of them.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| I think there's a limit to how well thought out you can
| expect the response to a global pandemic that's emerged in
| just a couple of months to be. Sorry it isn't perfect?
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| Taiwan seems to be handling it extremely well, but over
| there they had first-hand experience with SARS, and they
| had plans in place for when it was going to be back,
| because consensus was that it was going to be back.
| wegs wrote:
| To be fair, MIT tends to handle this sort of thing pretty
| well, and informally. I expect it doesn't have clear
| policies, but that it will try to do right by people on a
| case-by-case basis based on people's individual
| circumstances. I wouldn't take this quite so cynically.
|
| That's not to say the Institute isn't corrupt, evil, and
| horrible in other ways, but this is not one of the ways in
| which it's evil. The badness mostly starts with higher-ups
| and schemes in the many millions of dollars.
| loufe wrote:
| Can the headline be improved? I opened it as the title gives no
| impression of being temporary or linked to COVID-19.
| dang wrote:
| I've added "for the rest of the semester", which is explicit
| about being temporary and I suppose implies enough about
| covid-19.
|
| (Submitted title was "MIT moves all classes online, requires
| undergraduates to leave campus".)
| djaque wrote:
| I'm at Cornell and the admin just announced online learning for
| all undergraduates for the rest of semester.
| generationP wrote:
| > Undergraduates who live in an MIT residence or fraternity,
| sorority or independent living group (FSILG) must begin packing
| and departing this Saturday, March 14. We are requiring
| undergraduates to depart from campus residences no later than
| noon on Tuesday, March 17.
|
| This is strange. Isn't the travel they are forcing quite possibly
| a cure worth than the disease? And are they really expecting
| students (many of them international) to go home within a week,
| seeing that flights are getting cancelled all over the place?
|
| They do seem to have reasonable exceptions for students who "have
| concerns that they would not be allowed to return to MIT due to
| visa issues" or who "will have difficulty returning to their home
| country if it has been hard-hit by COVID-19" or who "do not have
| a home to go to, or for whom going home would be unsafe given the
| circumstances of their home country or homelife". I'm wondering
| how reasonably these will be implemented, though.
|
| In what way are dorms worse than personal homes for diseases
| anyway? Are they not trusting their students to prepare their own
| food? Why don't they just close the dining halls instead?
| chickenpotpie wrote:
| Isn't it way worse to make everyone travel? If any of the
| students had contracted the virus wouldn't it be better to keep
| it contained at the University rather than bringing it to where
| they're from?
| ct0 wrote:
| Its not about the virus, its about the liability. Everyone is
| looking out for them self here.
| a3n wrote:
| Gonna suck for foreign undergrads, or anyone who doesn't have a
| "home" to return to. I think student loans or similar would
| pay/contribute to dorm living and eating, but living out on the
| economy might not. ?
| keithnz wrote:
| maybe go back and read it in full where it talks about that?
| mherdeg wrote:
| Kind of missing some historical context here:
|
| * Has MIT ever suspended a semester before?
|
| * Have they ever run a shortened or extra class year? I seem to
| remember something unusual happened during WW2?
| macawfish wrote:
| Wait but they're gonna fly home that doesn't make sense either
| trhway wrote:
| probably MIT tries to CYA by "Doing Something" "out of
| abundance of caution". After all if people get infected while
| on campus some creative lawyer may probably sue whereis MIT
| would bear no responsibility for whatever happens as result of
| all those people forced to spread around the country and the
| globe. Such approach doesn't surprise me though giving that
| i've read over the years about MIT - Schwartz and Epstein come
| to my mind as the first associations with MIT administration.
|
| Some commenters mentioned that that is a preparation for
| possible outbreak there. Well, i'd think that preparation for
| outbreak would be making sure that various resources are
| stocked up, necessary personnel brought up and trained,
| "civilians" educated and all the travel and mass gatherings
| canceled/discouraged, quarantine procedures and checkpoints are
| established and ready to be activated, etc... That of course
| cost money and other resources. An alternative is to kick the
| can out to somewhere else.
| thulecitizen wrote:
| This kicking students out of dorms by MIT is insane! They are a
| being a terrible landlord. How is having thousands of students
| packing up their stuff better than them just staying put, in
| regards to the further passing on of the virus?
|
| Those dorms are going to be sitting empty after the students move
| out. Seriously, what is the logic behind this mess?
| akhilcacharya wrote:
| It's interesting that Harvard and MIT have done this. UW makes a
| little bit more sense, but the scale of the known outbreak in
| Cambridge isn't nearly as large at the moment (I live in Kendall
| Square and work next to MIT).
|
| Interestingly, UMass Boston still hasn't done this despite having
| a student confirmed with it a few weeks ago. I wonder if the
| administrations believe Columbia/Stanford/MIT/Harvard students
| deserve more protection or something - that sort of attitude
| wouldn't surprise me.
| saagarjha wrote:
| I think it's interesting that private schools made this
| decision earlier.
| JPKab wrote:
| One of my coworkers daughters is affected by this.
|
| The big question this begs:
|
| If there is no refund being offered for the content shifting
| online from in-person, why have in-person at all?
|
| Is room and board going to be refunded?
|
| If courses being taught online is an acceptable substitute, why
| have caps on admission at all? Edit: Understood that infinite
| sized classes aren't workable for human intensive grading,
| interactions, etc.
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| Making things wright when services promised and paid for are
| not delivered is something institutions in Massachusetts are
| very bad at (I call out the state specifically because I have
| lived in other states where this was not the case)
|
| People can hope for the best but the eventuality they should
| prepare for is one where MIT waves around a clause in a
| document that all the students signed as part of the enrollment
| process that exempts MIT from having to pay a cent.
| nostrademons wrote:
| > If there is no refund being offered for the content shifting
| online from in-person, why have in-person at all?
|
| There isn't really a good reason other than some people being
| more disciplined when there's a human instructor that they see
| face to face every couple days. Plenty of people self-teach
| from MOOCs, MIT OCW, or just buying the textbooks and working
| through the exercises and get just as good an education.
|
| When you go to an elite college, you're really paying for the
| degree. This is also why there are caps on admission: it
| creates scarcity value for graduates from that university. When
| there are fewer graduates with a credential, companies that
| want to employ them have to compete for a limited number of
| human resources, which drives up wages. Additionally, the
| university can impose selection bias on matriculating freshmen
| who will eventually receive the credential, which helps
| maintain the reputation of the university's graduates.
|
| If you don't maintain the selectivity of the institution, you
| end up with what's happening in the mid-tier for-profit
| colleges, where students take out massive loans for a degree
| but then it doesn't really improve their employment prospects
| much. If _everybody_ has a college degree, its financial value
| is basically 0.
| simonw wrote:
| "Plenty of people self-teach from MOOCs".
|
| Are there studies (not from the MOOC providers themselves)
| that demonstrate that this works?
|
| I got the impression that the MOOC thing wasn't working out
| as well as expected. The hype around them certainly seems to
| have cooled off since their peak a few years ago.
|
| My hunch is that it's only a small subset of people that
| thrive with MOOCs.
| thulecitizen wrote:
| To me what you write are great arguments for tuition free
| universities, like the ones in Sweden. It makes society much
| more equitable and egalitarian. This whole artificial
| scarcity thing is such a lose-lose for everyone in society.
| why-el wrote:
| > If courses being taught online is an acceptable substitute,
| why have caps on admission at all?
|
| Most assignments are not scored in an automated manner, and the
| number of staff is not unlimited.
| logfromblammo wrote:
| Given the usual university budget and the going rate for
| overqualified, part-time, and temporary adjuncts, the staff
| is less limited than one might think.
|
| Remote students and remote adjuncts--what do you need
| administrators for? Ah, yes, to collect the tuition, attend
| the luncheons, and issue the credentials.
|
| It would at least put a small dent in the oversupply of Ph.D.
| holders in some fields.
| nightfly wrote:
| At other schools the online offerings for courses can be more
| expensive than the in-person offerings.
|
| Online doesn't mean that you have unlimited capacity for
| students. You still need to grade homework and exams, offer
| virtual "office hours", answer emails.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| > At other schools the online offerings for courses can be
| more expensive than the in-person offerings.
|
| The school where I earned my master's degree had two
| programs, one online and one in-person. There were several
| differences, but the most salient one was that the in-person
| program conferred an academic degree while the online one
| conferred a professional degree, and the online one had
| significantly higher tuition.
|
| The fact that many state universities have policies limiting
| how rapidly academic degree programs' tuition can increase,
| but not the professional ones, is, I assume, just a
| coincidence.
| enitihas wrote:
| > You still need to grade homework and exams, offer virtual
| "office hours", answer emails.
|
| But all of the above can be done by TAs, and do not need a
| professor. Professor time is much more limited.
| BelleOfTheBall wrote:
| That still takes 'manpower', which is limited, and there's
| likely some stipulations that require the professors to
| actually do one-on-one time with students, not just always
| delegate to TAs.
| enitihas wrote:
| Yup, but it should free up professor time by a large
| amount. Manpower is still limited, but far more manpower
| is available compared to before.
| petschge wrote:
| I am at a (small) academic meeting right now and all of
| the professors in attendance fear how much extra effort
| this move to online-only classes will be and how it is
| going to cut into their research time.
| enitihas wrote:
| Why should there be extra effort for online classes?
|
| My university had a course where an external professor
| would deliver a mixed online/offline course. Videos were
| available on institute website. Professor would hold a
| class every week to go through that week's contents and
| clarify student doubts.
|
| This saved a ton of effort on the professor's part.
| petschge wrote:
| Because nothing is set up for it yet.
|
| There is a reserved scheduled class room for the class,
| but there is no organized zoom meeting yet (or maybe not
| use zoom after all?).
|
| There is a mail box to drop of home work assignments, but
| nobody has figured out where students should email things
| for grading (the prof, the TA or a function account?).
|
| The prof has a set of notes that (s)he writes onto the
| white board, but not a set of slides to be emailed out.
| Or might have electronic slides, but they contain
| annotation that should not be sent out to students.
|
| Everybody has to figure out how to make sure that 200
| students can join the zoom session, but have their mic
| muted. And know how to unmute when they want to ask a
| question.
|
| Exams for the mid terms might be printed but now need to
| be (e)mailed. And how do you prevent cheating in an exam
| that was meant to be taken under supervision with
| pen(cil) and paper only. Of course you can create an
| open-book exam where google doesn't help, but that is
| extra effort. And does not prevent collusion between
| students.
|
| Somebody need to figure out how to replace lab courses.
|
| And the list goes on. All of that can be fixed. And after
| a couple of semesters an online class might be no more
| (or possibly even less, but that is not proven) work than
| the current offline course. But switching in the middle
| of a semester with ideally no downtime IS a lot of extra
| effort.
| enitihas wrote:
| Thanks for your detailed reply. This really puts things
| into perspective.
| lgessler wrote:
| For one thing, profs often teach some classes repeatedly,
| which means they dont have to put substantial effort into
| planning for subsequent offerings. If the planned content
| is somehow unsuitable for a different medium of delivery,
| this would take some planning that they weren't expecting
| at the beginning of the semester.
| neets wrote:
| Aren't undergraduate ivy league programs more about signaling
| status than actually becoming educated?
| [deleted]
| toss1 wrote:
| NO
|
| Perhaps for some, but everyone I knew while I was an Ivy
| undergrad was doing their level best to take advantage of the
| benefits of that amazing environment of smart, educated
| people, both the profs, the visiting speakers, and the other
| students. Since then, it has been what I've learned, not what
| signaling I could do that has helped me most (tho I'm not the
| most social person, so YMV).
|
| One thing I really learned there (among other places), is
| that it _really_ pays to learn from the best -- you have to
| go through a learning process, and best to learn it once
| going directly to the top level, vs. a watered-down version
| and then re-learning. (of course, you can 't instantly jump
| to the top level, but just getting the clues form those who
| work at the top levels as you work your way up the curve is a
| huge benefit).
| ericd wrote:
| The signalling is definitely a thing, but the bigger thing is
| just getting together with lots of smart people and working
| together to learn this stuff.
| narak wrote:
| MIT isn't ivy league and probably the least 'about signaling'
| school in the US...
| csallen wrote:
| Yes and no. It's been 10 years since I graduated, but I
| doubt much has changed. The curriculum is rigorous, the
| students are smart, and people are serious about learning.
| But nevertheless, going to MIT _does_ signal something much
| stronger than the vast majority of other schools, and MIT
| students are highly aware of that, as is the institution
| itself.
| TylerE wrote:
| _cough_ Media Lab.
| gumby wrote:
| I don't think anyone believes online is an acceptable
| substitute to a traditional MIT education, but it's a lot
| better than nothing, and better than continuing the in person
| teaching.
|
| I'm an MIT grad and know the benefits of being on campus. In
| fact I spent more time in the lab than I did in classes or my
| dorm and that just isn't possible online.
|
| My son's school (Courant) has sent everyone home too, with
| online substitute, but like MIT that only really works for
| undergrads.
| JMTQp8lwXL wrote:
| What about lab work that demands physical access to
| facilities and equipment? Not everything can be virtualized.
| colechristensen wrote:
| A university education is not a SaaS product.
|
| We are getting to the point where lectures should be mandated
| to be recorded and put into the public domain, and the
| University's value proposition in admission, tuition, and
| residence should be the _everything else_ involved which could
| raise the focus away from re-doing the same lectures over and
| over.
| rifung wrote:
| > We are getting to the point where lectures should be
| mandated to be recorded and put into the public domain
|
| Does that really make sense? I thought MIT was a private
| institution. The _research_ is often publicly funded but I
| don 't believe that's the case for the tuition.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| There's a lot of value in running through the lecture live
| with a new class. Different students, different needs.
|
| If my undergrad CS Theory prof had used recorded lectures, it
| would've been great for 5 of us, and terrible for the other
| 30 or so. There were sections that they just did not get and
| needed repetition or clarifying examples. What's more, the
| students often don't know what they aren't understanding
| (sometimes they do, but often not). So they don't know how to
| ask for clarification because they don't know what needs
| clarification.
|
| Waiting for test, quizzes, or homeworks is often too late.
| What worked out well for my classmates was the help of the
| professor and a couple of us who got the material faster. The
| three of us could observe the class and identify what
| material (by non-verbal reaction or by questions) needed to
| be delved into more. Try doing that with a set of recorded
| lectures.
|
| In the end, perhaps you have a sufficiently complete set of
| recorded lectures that cover everything. But you still have
| the challenge of identifying what students need help with and
| helping them _immediately_ , instead of failing a large
| portion of a class and hoping you do better the next time.
|
| I mean, this is literally the waterfall vs agile debate.
| Classrooms are agile and responsive to student needs,
| recorded lectures are not.
| sarbaz wrote:
| This sounds pretty silly. There's bound to be a way to make
| online (or semi-online) learning agile too. Distance
| learning is basically a solved problem and has been done
| for hundreds of years.
|
| How about recorded lectures and in-person small group
| recitations? Or longer office hours? Obviously you have to
| change the methodology of learning a bit, but I'm sure it
| can be figured out.
|
| In any case undergrad level science lectures are basically
| a one-sided info dump where the lecturer is lucky to get so
| much as an ACK that someone is listening.
| petschge wrote:
| Completely solved problem? What about lab courses?
| jcranmer wrote:
| How do you handle things like chemistry labs? Vocational
| training and art curricula are also going to be very
| difficult to do remotely, since you're probably not going
| to have requisite materials at home.
| smacktoward wrote:
| These are good questions, but nobody is going to have good
| answers, at least not yet. We're in an unprecedented situation,
| which means that over the next few weeks just about every
| institution out there is going to be doing a whole lot of
| improvising. It sucks, and it's highly unlikely that everyone
| who has to make sacrifices will ever be completely made whole.
| All that can be said is that it beats the alternative.
| droithomme wrote:
| > If there is no refund being offered for the content shifting
| online from in-person, why have in-person at all?
|
| Most MIT undergrads pay no tuition, even though tuition is
| something like $70,000 a year there. They have a massive
| endowment and are thus on average one of the lowest cost
| colleges in the US, though not as low cost as Princeton. What
| refunds could they give?
|
| > Is room and board going to be refunded?
|
| Undoubtedly.
|
| > If courses being taught online is an acceptable substitute,
| why have caps on admission at all?
|
| Most of MIT's undergraduate course work is on line and free for
| anyone to take. Many take advantage of that. They also have a
| Masters program, the first year of which anyone who wants to
| can take it for free. Those who do well are admitted to the
| second year.
|
| MIT's way ahead of other universities on online education and
| does extremely well with it. The main "problem" is that MIT is
| in the top two engineering schools in the world, their classes
| are extremely rigorous and it simply is not for everyone. 99%
| of the world population, to be blunt, are not intelligent
| enough to do well there. And MIT has no intention of dumbing it
| down to be more "fair and equal" in accordance with the
| democratic ideal of minimal expectations.
|
| But yes, there are effectively no caps on admission if you want
| to take online classes there. You won't get an MIT diploma, but
| you will learn the material and what you do with it is up to
| you.
| whymauri wrote:
| I've been told there are currently meetings to discuss the
| process for partially reimbursing room and board.
| viraptor wrote:
| > If courses being taught online is an acceptable substitute,
| why have caps on admission at all?
|
| Mit was probably the first offering serious online courses with
| recognised certification. You can do their micromaster if you
| want:
|
| https://micromasters.mit.edu/
|
| So it's not like they don't offer the option. They also
| published opencourseware if you don't need the paper itself.
|
| I'm not saying they don't provide value locally, but they do
| push for online education themselves and literally provide you
| resources for free.
| samatman wrote:
| Most of the value of an elite education is signaling: it proves
| the student had what it takes both to get into MIT, and to
| graduate.
|
| If MIT switched to an online-only format, that would erode the
| value of the latter (which, remember, is social proof, not
| something which is notoriously rational), while open enrollment
| would obliterate the former.
|
| A semester of remote teaching won't damage the brand.
| the_svd_doctor wrote:
| Same at Harvard, undergrads have to leave their dorms
| https://dso.college.harvard.edu/coronavirusfaq
| PureParadigm wrote:
| I think large decisive moves like this may seem to some to be an
| overreaction, but it will prove to be the correct decision in
| hindsight (like the early travel bans). Exponential growth is
| real, and anything we can do to slow the rate of infection will
| save lives.
|
| As a current undergrad at UC Berkeley, they've moved all classes
| here online [1], and exams are either being postponed or
| converted to take-home assignments. I'm currently accessing
| lectures through Zoom.
|
| [1] https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/03/09/as-coronavirus-
| spreads-...
| smallgovt wrote:
| Actually, I think it's likely going to be seen as an
| overreaction in hindsight by the general public (even though it
| may not be).
|
| If these actions are successful in curbing the virus' spread,
| most people won't appreciate how bad things could have really
| gotten.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| So a Y2K style hindsight? I wonder if there is a phrase for
| that type of thing.
| chrisco255 wrote:
| So what do we do if this virus festers for another couple of
| years? We can't shut down society forever.
| pbourke wrote:
| Yeah, I've been thinking something similar.
|
| In the American context, a successful response would be seen
| by the uninformed as an overreaction. The administration
| responsible (federal or state) would be blamed for the
| economic damage and voted out.
|
| It would take a very strong leader who was willing to act
| without thought to reelection to really meet the crisis head
| on. That would be ... rare.
| whyenot wrote:
| It should be noted that they have not moved lab classes online.
| For someone in the sciences, much of your classroom time is
| spent in lab classes. Unfortunately, there isn't a good way to
| teach students how to run a gel, or do a titration, or identify
| minerals, etc. without in-person instruction.
|
| There are students who are graduating this spring and the
| skills they learn in upper division or capstone lab classes are
| some of the most important skills they will learn at school.
| You can't just cancel the classes (or those students won't
| graduate), you can't do a very good job at all teaching them
| online... What can you do? We haven't figured it out here at my
| institution, and it looks like nobody else has figured it out.
| better_names wrote:
| > _to slow a spreading virus like COVID-19_
|
| The naming of this thing is such a disaster, even MIT can't get
| it right.
|
| - the virus is called SARS-CoV-2 (like HIV)
|
| - the disease it causes is named COVID-19 (like AIDS)
|
| - pretty much everyone calls both the virus and the disease
| coronavirus
| chrisco255 wrote:
| That's because COVID-19 looks like a JIRA ticket, and people
| shudder a bit when they type it out.
| pbourke wrote:
| https://xkcd.com/2275/
| mumblemumble wrote:
| The "empty out campus" bit seems a bit overmuch to me. What's the
| epidemiologists' take on something like this?
|
| I can see asking students who left for spring break not to come
| back. But asking students currently on campus to leave, and even
| demanding that they travel internationally, seems like it might
| just increase everyone's risk of exposure, and spread it around.
| Especially considering that, at least according to the stats they
| post on their website, about 75% of their international students
| are from Asia or Europe.
| wegs wrote:
| Not an epidemiologist, but a Boston resident. Generally, people
| under 30 completely ignore anything about the coronavirus here.
| You have people hitting a different nightclub each night, going
| to parties, and that sort of thing.
|
| A college town full of students who see their risk as 0.1% is
| not what you want right now.
|
| Now, a more sensible thing might be to close the nightclubs,
| bars, and parties. But the city hasn't done that. Patient zero
| will probably infect hundred here.
|
| And the people who will die will be the elderly (which includes
| a lot of faculty too).
| adrianmonk wrote:
| Yeah, this sounds like a local optimization that is going to
| make things worse overall. Even if international students get
| to stay, you're still giving people a lot of reason to travel.
| Twice. A lot of people are going to go home and stay with Mom
| and Dad, I would expect.
| chickenpotpie wrote:
| Oh god, I didn't even think about how someone with Corona is
| going to go from spending all day around young, healthy
| individuals to their aging parents.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| There is an exception for some international students as stated
| elsewhere in the thread, but yes I still agree. Even the
| domestic churn of thousands of schools from various schools
| going home is no good. Massachusetts surely has one of the
| highest hospital densities in the country, too.
|
| I would cancel classes, but allow everyone that wants to to
| stay put.
| the-dude wrote:
| You want to know what is going to happen? They will party all
| night long.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| I am skeptical of these things. I would have cancelled classes
| but left everyone in their dorms. All the travel is no good, and
| high density but young and healthy people (watch their health
| improve with no crushing amounts of homework!) I wouldn't expect
| to speed up an epidemic as long as they aren't traveling.
| saagarjha wrote:
| My university (UC Santa Barbara) just cancelled all in-person
| classes minutes ago. I would expect students to start leaving
| campus soon, but it's not required so I guess it's better than
| this...
| CodesInChaos wrote:
| I never understood why US universities have so many more rights
| over their tenants than other landlords. Why do they have the
| right to terminate what's effectively a rental agreement with
| only a week's notice?
| [deleted]
| smacktoward wrote:
| In contract law, there's a concept called _force majeure_
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure), which comes into
| play when the normal circumstances under which the contract was
| signed are changed by a sudden, unpredictable event -- the
| proverbial "act of God."
|
| Most contracts have a _force majeure_ clause, that either
| releases the parties from their contractual obligations in such
| an event, or substantially relaxes the penalties for failing to
| meet those obligations. The idea is, nobody could have seen
| these circumstances coming, so it 's unfair to hold either
| party to obligations they suddenly find themselves unable to
| meet.
|
| I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not privy to the precise language in
| the contracts between universities and students for residential
| housing. But I feel pretty confident that they have a _force
| majeure_ clause in them. And seeing as how Massachusetts
| declared a state of emergency over the coronavirus today
| (https://www.boston25news.com/news/mass-gov-declares-state-
| em...), it seems like universities in that commonwealth would
| have a reasonably strong legal argument for exercising them.
| chickenpotpie wrote:
| I don't get it either. It was especially irritating at my
| university because the dorms were several thousand dollars a
| semester more expensive than larger, better apartments nearby,
| but they were the worst landlords I ever had. They would kick
| me out all the time, while still charging me rent. During
| finals week you had to be gone within 24 hours of taking your
| last final or be fined. If schools in the US aren't going to be
| free, they should at least be held to the same laws that other
| institutions that provide the same services are.
| JMTQp8lwXL wrote:
| If you stay past your lease date in a regular apartment, you
| will typically be fined as well.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Surely they had better things to do than to try to figure out
| when people had their finals and check door-to-door every day
| to make sure people left when they should?
| chickenpotpie wrote:
| That's exactly what the RAs did
| dumbfoundded wrote:
| I have a hard time believing this is legal. Like 50% of MIT
| guys live in fraternities. At least my fraternity was owned by
| the alumni board so I don't know how they can force people out.
| Especially for the Boston-side fraternities, I can't imagine
| them enforcing this.
| smallnamespace wrote:
| Many universities are either municipalities in their own right,
| or have delegated municipal powers from the city government.
|
| Universities are their own small towns - they provide food,
| housing, have police forces, a large staff, etc.
|
| Put it the other way around, does it make more sense for a city
| official to be calling the shots, when campuses have their own
| special context?
| JMTQp8lwXL wrote:
| Universities also have their own judicial systems under Title
| IX as well.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > have police forces
|
| Literally their own police forces? How does that work? Where
| do they get the authority to be police from? Who are they
| sworn to?
| dvtrn wrote:
| Aren't tenant/landlord laws typically set by the state,
| though-Using your analogy or do I have it backwards? Aside
| from local zoning laws I don't quite see the comparison to
| how a municipality would be able to "call the shots" on
| something like eviction rules.
| enitihas wrote:
| Where will students go?
|
| 1. Students with financial difficulties or out of state students
|
| 2. International students
| StevenWaterman wrote:
| 3. Care leavers
|
| 4. Estranged students
| icegreentea2 wrote:
| The letter says contact administration and it will be handled
| on a case by case basis.
|
| _shrug_ , probably the best thing to do.
| enitihas wrote:
| Ok, as mentioned by another commenter, they seem to have
| thought about these issues. Quoting here
|
| - International students who have concerns that they would not
| be allowed to return to MIT due to visa issues.
|
| - International students who will have difficulty returning to
| their home country if it has been hard-hit by COVID-19.
|
| - Students who do not have a home to go to, or for whom going
| home would be unsafe given the circumstances of their home
| country or homelife.
| whiddershins wrote:
| There are an overwhelming number of comments here assuming this
| policy is enacted in such a way that it ignores the challenges of
| underprivileged students.
|
| Who are these commenters. Why do they assume this.
|
| What is going on.
|
| MIT (and many other higher education providers) seem to be trying
| to preempt the spread of a disease.
|
| If someone has specific, concrete, information about someone who
| is harmed by this and whose difficulties are ignored by
| administration, of course, comment!
|
| But all this hypothetical speculation feels mean spirited.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| I expect to see this at more and more universities in the US over
| the next couple of weeks. I have friends who work in the higher
| education technology space, and they mentioned that many schools
| are starting to plan for this.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| This seems like its likely to have dramatically more serious
| consequences for the less privileged students.
|
| Lots of people don't have a place other than school they can live
| & be successful.
| pkaye wrote:
| Do you mean less privileged MIT students? I though MIT is
| pretty good about giving scholarships and grants to those who
| are admitted. If your family income is below some threshold
| they fully cover the costs.
| whymauri wrote:
| Flights may be reimbursed to go home for low-income students,
| but not all students have a safe home to go back to. A common
| issue could be homophobia or transphobia. Some students are
| also highly reliant on on-campus jobs for income that makes
| gives them a living wage. This whiplash relocation may make
| finding new sources of income really hard for certain
| geographies/students.
|
| The list of complications just goes on... and let it be known
| that there are still some classes that haven't canceled exams
| or other large milestones through this Friday.
| pkaye wrote:
| Okay didn't realize they have to leave the dorm also when I
| first read it. But it looks like they can make exceptions
| for...
|
| > Students who do not have a home to go to, or for whom
| going home would be unsafe given the circumstances of their
| home country or homelife.
| prostheticvamp wrote:
| That doesn't mean they have somewhere they can go home and
| still commit to studying.
|
| Some folks will go home to places with their own bedrooms, or
| even a family study, or a good local library.
|
| Some will go home to nothing like anything of the above.
| teachrdan wrote:
| I think the point was, what happens to working class or poor
| students who don't have a stable home--with broadband,
| adequate study space, food, etc--to go back to? Those needs
| were covered by MIT while the students were on campus; will
| they be covered by MIT now that students are forced to leave?
| If not, it seems like this is a ham-fisted response that
| ignores the needs of students who don't come from comfortable
| backgrounds.
| pkaye wrote:
| The can make exceptions to allow students to stay:
|
| > Students who do not have a home to go to, or for whom
| going home would be unsafe given the circumstances of their
| home country or homelife.
| rurp wrote:
| That exception only specifies students with an "unsafe"
| home life. It doesn't say anything about students who
| aren't in danger at home but nevertheless will lose the
| income from a part time job, access to quiet study areas,
| good study partners, and many other significant
| downsides.
| varenc wrote:
| The letter explicitly calls out that undergrads may request an
| exemption so that they can stay on campus. -
| International students who have concerns that they would not be
| allowed to return to MIT due to visa issues. -
| International students who will have difficulty returning to
| their home country if it has been hard-hit by COVID-19. -
| Students who do not have a home to go to, or for whom going
| home would be unsafe given the circumstances of their home
| country or homelife.
|
| (just cutting down the dorm population by 90% will have a huge
| effect at slowing the disease, so I imagine there'll be plenty
| of room to give exemptions for students without safe/stable
| homes to return to)
| akhilcacharya wrote:
| There are probably only a handful of MIT undergrads that are
| actually underprivileged per year (its unlikely enough with a
| middle class upbringing). I doubt this will be much of an
| issue, at least as much of an issue as it would be if my alma
| mater did this. They'll be fine.
| 909832 wrote:
| Some data on the economic background of MIT students:
| https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-
| mobilit...
| akhilcacharya wrote:
| This is interesting data I hadn't seen, thanks. Intuitively
| its a little bewildering to see the Median family income of
| someone from MIT be around the same as someone from UNC (a
| school I got into) - I wonder how the median incomes of
| international admits factor in.
|
| The bottom 20% of US incomes is between $0 to $25k a year
| for a household - call me a skeptic but I think its
| unlikely ~58 (938 x 6.2%) people came from backgrounds like
| that in America,
| whymauri wrote:
| There are students at MIT/Harvard that will temporarily be
| rendered homeless. Some are depending on the generosity of
| local friends/classmates to find temporary lodging.
|
| It's getting kinda wild.
| capkutay wrote:
| can you please not spread misinformation. there's obviously
| exceptions in the policy for such cases. they're not going to
| toss students to the street. the goal is to drastically
| reduce the number of students living on campus and sharing
| dorm space (rooms, bathrooms/showers, eating halls).
| whymauri wrote:
| This is not misinformation. The methods and procedures for
| appealing are not clear yet (we leave in seven days!) and
| there are students who are moving into local houses with
| friends. If you think MIT won't "just toss students to the
| street" you haven't been paying attention to the closures
| of Bexley Hall, Senior House, and the upcoming closure of
| Eastgate (which was only recently amended to be slightly
| better).
|
| The source is that I am currently here and it is unfolding
| before my eyes and in my community.
| IAmGraydon wrote:
| The real reason behind such a move is the culture of litigation
| in the US. Someone made your coffee too hot? Sue them. Someone
| stepped on your toe? Sue them. In this case, everyone is ducking
| for cover because they don't want to be the focus of a lawsuit
| that claims they didn't do anything to prevent the spread of the
| disease. The people who make these decisions at MIT are not
| unintelligent. They have all the resources and risk models at
| their disposal. They have obviously found that the financial risk
| to the school is greater if they don't send all the students away
| vs if they do.
| simonw wrote:
| I'm certain that's not the case here. This isn't about avoiding
| litigation. It's about Flattening the Curve.
|
| https://www.flattenthecurve.com/
|
| Universities are taking this extremely disruptive step because
| they have a very large influence on how quickly this disease
| spreads, and they know it.
| Tomte wrote:
| The Truth About the McDonald's Coffee Lawsuit
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9DXSCpcz9E&feature=youtu.be
| solbloch wrote:
| At my university, Syracuse University, we just learned that
| school will be online preliminary for one week after our spring
| break ends. (Finish this week of school, spring break, then
| online for a week after)[0].
|
| Not sure that all my peers going home is the best idea. Also, we
| on campus have watch those from the Florence Abroad Program come
| back to campus and attend events. Not too likely to have been
| infected, but I'm worried about all our parents and grandparents.
|
| I wonder, what will my Korean or Chinese friends do? If they are
| expected possibly to have to be back on campus in a month, they
| can't go home and come back, they can't stay here, so they have
| to pay for an apartment for a month?
|
| [0] https://www.waer.org/post/syracuse-university-cancels-
| campus...
| narrator wrote:
| Speaking of the underprivileged kids. Here in S.F where we have
| some really high rents, I heard a story from a friend that there
| was a student who was living in a van and spent most of his time
| in the lobby of the student center. I wonder if the MIT gang will
| start living in their cars. This could be the beginning of a new
| hyper mobile tech road warrior culture... Like all the MIT kids
| will meet up in random spots around the country and somebody will
| drive up a box truck with whatever laser or experiment they're
| working on. Total Bruce Sterling novel in the making here...
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| /notfunny. Student homelessness is real, as is student food
| insecurity.
| icedchai wrote:
| This sucks, but it's better to get the students out now before it
| becomes impossible due to travel restrictions. They must've
| thought about this carefully, weighed the pros and cons. This is
| just getting started in the US.
| gravelc wrote:
| Sensible precautions. Multiple cases of people arriving from the
| USA to Australia with COVID19 suggest the virus is much more
| widespread than admitted by the government[1]. Large gatherings
| of any sort should be curtailed to prevent a similar crisis to
| what is occurring in Italy.
|
| [1]https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-11/coronavirus-
| infection...
| simonw wrote:
| From that link: "Undergraduates should not return to campus after
| spring break."
|
| Harvard have announced the same thing:
| https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/3/11/harvard-coronav...
| philipkiely wrote:
| My college is doing the same right now. It's a small residential
| college about an hour's drive from the nearest confirmed case.
| Campus mood is indescribable. I think the move is for the best
| but as a graduating senior it's a very emotional time.
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