[HN Gopher] Chelsea Manning ordered to be released from custody ...
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Chelsea Manning ordered to be released from custody [pdf]
Author : pera
Score : 202 points
Date : 2020-03-12 21:36 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.courtlistener.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.courtlistener.com)
| [deleted]
| ohyeshedid wrote:
| It's a shame lamo didn't make it to see this. I know it really
| fucked him up to out her. That would be such a nightmare
| situation to be in.
| [deleted]
| autonoshitbox wrote:
| This is fantastic news.
| ci5er wrote:
| Why?
|
| I'm not familiar with the facts of the case.
|
| And, I further realize that facts are almost completely
| immaterial to motivated reasoning about the case, but...
|
| ... assuming that you (or someone) is a straight-shooter, why
| is this "fantastic news"?
| whatshisface wrote:
| Manning was being squeezed to get at Assange, who most people
| on HN agree is himself only being squeezed for geopolitical
| reasons. Nobody is happy to see the justice system abused for
| geopolitical goals, so any step away from "jail all of the
| dissenters and all of their supporters" is good to see.
| ci5er wrote:
| I am baffled that no matter how many times Assange (and a
| fair number of NY State Fed LEOs) say "It wasn't the
| Russians", that the "system" nor the "media" nor the
| "people" seem to be able to take him at face value: It
| wasn't the Russians. (Even CrowdStrike seems to be backing
| away from those claims in this last week)
| lawnchair_larry wrote:
| What are you talking about? It was Russians (at least two
| independent Russian groups even) and CrowdStrike has only
| reiterated that. CrowdStrike is also not the only source
| of that intelligence.
|
| It doesn't matter what Assange said, the only thing he
| could possibly know is who gave it to him. He doesn't
| know where his source got it, even if his source was not
| Russian.
|
| I'm also pretty sure that no LEOs said any such thing.
| monocasa wrote:
| Do you have a link to crowdstrike walking back their
| statements?
| codezero wrote:
| Can you link to where Crowdstrike is backing away from
| this claim?
| jlgaddis wrote:
| Because she is being released from incarceration!?
| ci5er wrote:
| Uhhhh, yeah. I was curious about why this is a "good
| thing". I think I got a response that tries to respond to
| that more specifically up-thread. Thank you.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| She is in jail for refusing to testify in front of a
| secret jury. The grand jury is essentially a politically
| motivated persecution of Julian Assange. She has already
| spent 7 years in jail for her part in the Wiki leaks mess
| and then they threw her in jail again. She released tapes
| to Assange documenting US killing of civilians. She is
| clearly a psychologically damaged person and now they are
| just trying to break her.
| umvi wrote:
| Well, there are many different... idealogical alignments
| in America.
|
| Some believe Manning is a hero who followed her
| conscience and leaked classified information in order to
| inform the public of secret crimes the
| government/military committed.
|
| Others think what Manning did was incredibly reckless and
| treasonous, tantamount to selling secrets to the enemy
| (just without the "selling" part)
|
| So to answer your question, people in the first camp see
| news like this as a good thing.
| _ph_ wrote:
| I don't think this should be reduced to her original
| actions. She was sentenced as a consequence of them, she
| served 7 years until the rest of the sentence was
| communted by Obama.
|
| So the real question is: was it appropriate to throw her
| back into prison, under very harsh conditions, just to
| force a statement from her. I think there is very good
| reasons to doubt that, independant of the stance about
| her original actions. From that perspective, I think her
| release is good news.
| karthikshan wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning
|
| tl;dr she was a whistleblower facing the wrath of the people
| she outed
| ci5er wrote:
| I think she was being compelled to testify here in the
| Assange case, no?
| jswizzy wrote:
| Manning was never a whistleblower hence the espionage
| charges.
| kick wrote:
| She was a whistleblower, hence everyone with a hint of
| credibility saying she was.
|
| Also, it's customary on HN to point out when you have a
| conflict of interest. You work for a military contractor
| & used to work for the government, and probably should
| disclose that when talking about a subject so closely
| tied to your work.
| SlowRobotAhead wrote:
| Can you help me understand the difference between leaker
| and whistleblower?
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| The gun camera footage, maybe, but the state dept. cables
| were not blowing any whistle.
| austincheney wrote:
| A more precise term would be _leaker_ , as somebody who
| commits a data breach or spillage (military term). Manning
| did release evidence that appears to constitute a
| potentially criminal act, however the quantity and material
| subject of information leaked greatly exceeded any single,
| or collection of, criminal acts at 750,000 unrelated items.
|
| A whistleblower is a subset of leaking with the limited
| intention of exposing something specifically nefarious.
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_breach
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spillage_of_classified_info
| rma...
| sp332 wrote:
| Did something in particular change so they no longer needed her
| testimony, or did they finally accept her argument that she
| already told them what she knew and had nothing more to say?
|
| Edit: Oh I didn't see that the Assange grand jury was dismissed
| today!
| ci5er wrote:
| She attempted suicide and a judge decided that she need not be
| incarcerated to compel her to be a witness.
| tjohns wrote:
| That is most definitely not what the court order says.
|
| She was dismissed because the Grand Jury had concluded today,
| and therefore her testimony was no longer required.
|
| The suicide attempt wasn't even part of the discussion.
| callahad wrote:
| That's not _at all_ what the court order says.
| ci5er wrote:
| It also makes the reasonable point that the Assange grand
| jury had been dismissed, but IIRC (and it's only been two
| or three hours) the court's statement was clear that
| incarceration to compel was not necessary. (Probably
| motivated more by the grand jury's conclusion than the
| suicide), but if you'd like to tell all of us what you
| think they said, that would be super!
| jlgaddis wrote:
| As the order states, the Grand Jury is no more and, as a
| result, her testimony is no longer needed.
| MBCook wrote:
| "the court finds Ms. Manning's appearance before the Grand Jury
| is no longer needed, in light of which her detention no longer
| serves any coercive purpose."
| whatshisface wrote:
| Looks like they are still fining Manning $256,000.00.
| gargarplex wrote:
| Where's the GoFundMe? I have a spare $1 to jump start the
| effort.
| sp332 wrote:
| https://actionnetwork.org/fundraising/chelsea-manning-
| needs-...
| gargarplex wrote:
| Contributed $10.
| [deleted]
| wideasleep1 wrote:
| Her attorneys recently said 'half million' in fines...so I'm
| confuzzled.
| wideasleep1 wrote:
| "..more than a half million dollars in fines..."
|
| https://www.npr.org/2020/03/12/814974205/chelsea-manning-
| rec...
|
| edit: downvoted why? It's an article from today, 1:44pm...
| monocasa wrote:
| There's been two distinct grand juries, each of which have
| caused her to be reincarcerated. Maybe she still has fines
| form the first one?
| jessaustin wrote:
| Even if those have been paid, it's still worthwhile to
| consider the full scope of injustice inflicted upon her.
| eatbitseveryday wrote:
| The last page states she will owe $256,000 in fines and the
| motion to dismiss them was denied. Really?
| Zenst wrote:
| With a law degree going to cost you near on $150,000 in student
| debt, you start to think of limited options and
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage has many forms.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Really. The validity of the contempt wasn't undercut, the grand
| jury was dismissed which terminated any basis for additional
| contempt sanctions not already incurred (unless criminal
| contempt charges are filed, but that's a separate bucket of
| consequences.)
| anthm1988 wrote:
| Scumbag judges should be thrown off for this.
|
| Completely bullshit. They held her in prison for a year with no
| charges and now they want her to pay a quarter million in fines?
| Fuck off.
| bosswipe wrote:
| TLDR; the Assange grand jury was dismissed today so Manning is
| ordered released but she still owes the coeercive fines which
| amount to $256,000.
| ineedasername wrote:
| That is obscene. I can just about understand contempt of court
| incarceration for not testifying (though I have extreme
| reservations on the practice) but such punitive and life-
| debilitating fines strike me as purely malicious.
| wl wrote:
| I'm sure her representation, who likely are working pro bono,
| will challenge the fines.
| smsm42 wrote:
| I understand they already did (the same order mentions it)
| and they were denied. Of course, they could appeal I
| presume.
| iandanforth wrote:
| They did, as part of that order those challenges were
| denied. No idea if they can appeal that bit. IANAL.
| jlgaddis wrote:
| If anyone knows of a (legit) way to donate or make a payment
| towards her $256,000 in fines, please do share the details.
| sp332 wrote:
| Her lawyer (https://twitter.com/chasestrangio) retweeted a link
| to https://actionnetwork.org/fundraising/chelsea-manning-
| needs-...
| mindslight wrote:
| Why would you throw away money paying an illegitimate debt?
| Donate to a trust that will take care of her instead.
| ohyeshedid wrote:
| I imagine it's going to be hard for her to find employment,
| and if she doesn't pay those fines she'll eventually end up
| in custody with even more fines.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| It's generally hard for trans people to find employment,
| period -- and I doubt she has meaningful job skills given
| her extended imprisonment. That said, trans people rally
| around our own so she shouldn't have trouble surviving; but
| whether or not that life is existentially fulfilling is
| another question...
|
| Also, I don't think it's legal to jail someone over unpaid
| debt (though many states will certainly try). They can do
| all sorts of things like garnish your wages, but federal
| courts don't throw people in jail for being poor.
| resters wrote:
| It's so sad that one of the most courageous soldiers in the
| history of the US military has been treated so horribly by the
| government.
| pstuart wrote:
| The US Military has no real oversight, and to question it is to
| have one's patriotism questioned. It's beyond vexing.
| epx wrote:
| At last some good news today.
| Zenst wrote:
| I'm wondering if jail is a safer or less safer place in light of
| the current pandemic.
|
| Let's face it, if you got your freedom after so many years only
| to be handed a facemask on your way out and told - you will need
| this. Has to suck at some level.
| [deleted]
| elihu wrote:
| If I remember right, Iran was recently forced to release a lot
| of prisoners because of COVID-19 outbreaks in their jails. (The
| inmates are expected to return to jail when conditions are safe
| to re-open the jails.)
| japhyr wrote:
| Being confined in an unhealthy space is a very bad place to be
| right now. This would be a great time to release nonviolent
| offenders.
| Zenst wrote:
| Only if they have somewhere to live, so they can isolate
| themselves if they need or want too. Adding to the homeless
| would be placing them at greater risk with less medical and
| people to look out for than any prison.
|
| Homeless people are overlooked at the best of times, at the
| worst, they can't isolate, they live day by day. We should be
| focusing in assisting them as by helping them, we also help
| everybody else as nobody wants to be spreading this and some
| won't have that choice.
| jMyles wrote:
| > I'm wondering if jail is a safer or less safer place
|
| It is so much less safe that a global pandemic isn't nearly
| enough to tip the balance, even if prisoners were 100% immune.
| Cyberdog wrote:
| Sometimes freedom and safety are at odds with each other. I
| will always side with freedom, and take my odds against a
| pandemic.
|
| But of course this is an academic exercise pretending that
| prisons, or especially jails which have a higher rate of people
| coming and going, are impermeable to an infectious disease. The
| truth is that once it's in there, it's in there, and only the
| (further) inhumane act of locking the inmates up in their
| individual cells 24/7 (so no social time, no visits to the
| library, etc) will stop it.
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| _> BREAKING: NYC Defenders call for immediate release of
| vulnerable incarcerated New Yorkers in response to #COVID19.
|
| "A coronavirus outbreak in our overcrowded, poorly maintained
| jails and prison facilities would be devastating, swift, and
| deadly."_
|
| https://twitter.com/LegalAidNYC/status/1238218556610940929
| wyldfire wrote:
| Can Manning avoid the fines by declaring bankruptcy?
| andy_ppp wrote:
| I've said it before but the idea of secret courts trying to
| coerce people into doing things seems extremely backwards and
| regressive. Maybe I don't understand this system but it doesn't
| seem to be about getting justice. If there is testimony already
| given as well it seems doubly wrong, inconsistent and hateful.
| LiquidSky wrote:
| >secret courts
|
| This was a normal public federal district court, not the FISA
| court or the like. Or did you mean the concept of grand juries?
|
| > trying to coerce people into doing things
|
| If people aren't voluntarily complying with orders and
| subpoenas, what would you suggest be done?
| andy_ppp wrote:
| The concept of grand juries.
|
| I would actually say it's almost impossible to compel people
| to be witnesses. If the witness believes the court to be
| politically motivated (which you can't believe it isn't) then
| morally of course it's the correct decision not to testify. I
| for one wouldn't give a shit at this point, I'd say just
| about anything to make these people leave me alone. Another
| problem with the coercion aspect of this, my testimony
| couldn't be trusted...
| causality0 wrote:
| Courts have as much to do with justice as HR departments. Both
| exist only to protect the higher-ups. It's not about protecting
| people; it's about protecting power and those who wield it.
| Ididntdothis wrote:
| That doesn't make sense. Courts are independent (in theory)
| whereas HR is directly paid by and depending on the company.
| cfqycwz wrote:
| There _is_ a slightly looser coupling than an HR
| department, but the judges are still appointed and
| confirmed by politicians with pretty clear material
| interests. It's not so much a case of being "paid to rule
| the right way" as being chosen _because_ of an inclination
| to rule the right way
| lostcolony wrote:
| Independent in operation, but not able to perform their own
| hiring. The temptation to appoint sycophantic justices who
| have espoused opinions in line with the dominant party is
| high.
| komali2 wrote:
| > Courts are independent (in theory)
|
| In the last couple years the {in practice} part has made
| this independence completely untrue.
| Angostura wrote:
| > completely untrue.
|
| That would explain why the government _never_ loses in
| court ever, ever, right?
| CriticalCathed wrote:
| One could argue that it's merely another government
| faction. Ala conflicts between the aristocracy.
| saghm wrote:
| I don't necessarily agree with GP, but don't judges get
| government salaries?
| Ididntdothis wrote:
| The government consists of three independent branches of
| which one is the judiciary. You can't compare this to a
| company which is basically a dictatorship.
| clairity wrote:
| > "Maybe I don't understand this system..."
|
| sounds like you understand the system pretty well. the US is
| grounded in a limited federal government and the right to
| vigorously oppose it (short of, say, revolt) without
| persecution (see: bill of rights).
|
| holding manning in jail for so long was persecutory and unjust.
| sudoaza wrote:
| Manning and Assange must eat the stick so the rest of the
| people learn not to mess with the Authority. Must make sure
| that no journalist dares to even touch any future leak. Dare
| I remind that Greenwald has a capture order in Brasil.
| acqq wrote:
| I also don't understand. I've tried to find more material about
| what was going on, especially re. dismissal of Grand Jury
| mentioned:
|
| https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/15788218/united-states-...
|
| And I don't understand if it is actually accessible (the
| meaning of "sealed" there).
| fallingfrog wrote:
| Thank god. It's a mockery of the idea of America as a land of
| freedom when we have political prisoners who we abuse in this
| way.
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(page generated 2020-03-12 23:00 UTC)