[HN Gopher] Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines lead...
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Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus
monitoring
Author : imartin2k
Score : 97 points
Date : 2020-03-23 20:10 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| lwansbrough wrote:
| Good thing phones are embedded into us and can't simply be left
| at home.
|
| Joking aside, and I suppose privacy concerns aside, this measure
| is better than nothing and is also less draconian than the
| physical enforcement by police that was seen in mainland China.
| lanewinfield wrote:
| Fifth paragraph: "Officials also call twice a day to ensure
| people don't avoid tracking by leaving their phones at home."
| jiveturkey wrote:
| good thing phone forwarding isn't a thing
| mattkrause wrote:
| The threat here is more "I'll just run to the store real
| quick; nobody will even know" than "We need to thwart
| determined criminal masterminds."
| jiveturkey wrote:
| yes, of course.
|
| i was just responding in the tone of the thread
| [deleted]
| notRobot wrote:
| > The system monitors phone signals to alert police and local
| officials if those in home quarantine move away from their
| address or turn off their phones. Jyan said authorities will
| contact or visit those who trigger an alert within 15 minutes.
|
| > Officials also call twice a day to ensure people don't avoid
| tracking by leaving their phones at home.
|
| I'd hate this so much. I get why they feel it's necessary, I do.
| But I still absolutely hate this.
|
| I hope stuff like this doesn't get nomralized. Especially in
| other non-first-world countries
| robocat wrote:
| > other non-first-world countries
|
| Taiwan has been first world since the 1950's (just to clarify
| to others reading the thread).
| blululu wrote:
| Taiwan has been a well run country for a while, but the 50's
| were still difficult times for Taiwan. The civil war
| concluded in '49 and there were a lot of refugees. Based on
| the opinions of relatives, Taiwan really only hit 1st world
| status (good sewage, garbage and drinking water) in the 80's.
| cycrutchfield wrote:
| Yeah, what the hell? Maybe the guy got Taiwan confused with
| Thailand?
| javagram wrote:
| Many people don't know what first world means and think it
| means "Europe and the US"
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Very few people know what the second world is!
|
| Hint: or was.
| gruez wrote:
| >Taiwan has been first world since the 1950's (just to
| clarify to others reading the thread).
|
| In the technical sense, yes. By the same token, Ireland and
| Sweden are also "third world".
| mmhsieh wrote:
| more like the 1910s. Taiwan was fully electrified with flush
| toilets everywhere even before the U.S.
| shadowgovt wrote:
| We also hope the kind of isolation we're currently living under
| to avoid COVID-19 spreading doesn't become normalized. These
| two special circumstances could probably remain tied together.
| RivieraKid wrote:
| I would be ok with this variation: lower physical check
| frequency, bigger fines.
| Noumenon72 wrote:
| That approach doesn't comport with human psychology. A higher
| probability of getting caught is far more deterrent than a
| higher punishment. This is why the parole system needs to be
| reformed to be "swift, certain, and fair". https://www.bloomb
| erg.com/opinion/articles/2015-09-09/-swift...
| ShorsHammer wrote:
| People love it. The amazing shift in online rhetoric that
| praises authoritarianism is scary.
|
| Imagine this being rolled out for the flu.
| vkou wrote:
| If the flu caused the kind of havoc to our medical systems
| that COVID is causing, I'd want this rolled out for the flu,
| too.
| jcims wrote:
| The flu is no slouch. I'm cherry picking a bit but for the
| US in 2017-2018:
|
| "CDC estimates that the burden of illness during the
| 2017-2018 season was high with an estimated 45 million
| people getting sick with influenza, 21 million people going
| to a health care provider, 810,000 hospitalizations, and
| 61,000 deaths from influenza."
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden-averted/2017-2018.htm
|
| The panic is at least in part responsible for the _present_
| havoc that has been caused to the healthcare system (again
| in the US). Forecast havoc is all disease.
|
| Interesting side effect of the social distancing is that it
| has materially reduced influenza numbers as well. Take a
| look at some of the recent stats at
| https://healthweather.us. Many states are dropping below
| average fever counts.
|
| Except Florida.
| dekhn wrote:
| flu already was wreaking massive havoc, it's just a cost
| we've internalized. Like driving.
| chillacy wrote:
| Part of that is having the hospital capacity for seasonal
| flu and accident victims. We're prepared for that.
| Coronavirus adding more cases will soon overwhelm
| hospitals in major US cities, at which point they will
| have to start triaging patients like they are in Italy.
|
| Presumably if this became the new norm then we would up
| our hospital capacity to match and then re-adjust our
| life expectancy numbers as well.
| dekhn wrote:
| we don't have the hospital capacity for seasonal flu
| victims.
| vkou wrote:
| Nobody who is working in the ICUs in the outbreak areas
| shares that opinion. It's not a normal flu season for
| them. It's not business as usual.
| dekhn wrote:
| I never said it was a "normal flu season". I just said
| we've sort of factored-in the costs (in our heads) about
| flu.
|
| I think what folks working in ICUs think about flu is
| probably more complex than what they are saying right
| now; most people in ICUs are dealing with clear and
| present dangers with the technical systems that they
| have. What matters more is researchers and folks who do
| aggregate analysis of costs on a countrywide or larger
| basis, averaged over longer times, and considering
| second-order effects.
| RivieraKid wrote:
| Of course they love it, the inconvenience it causes is
| nothing compared to the economic and health impacts of the
| virus.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| The really strict lock-downs have only been happening for
| the last week. People love it because they imagine this is
| only going to last a few weeks. Tell them that in order to
| be effective we're going to need to stay shut down for a
| year or more. Then let's talk about how much people like
| it.
| RivieraKid wrote:
| The plan is to lift the lockdown after a few weeks when
| the number of new cases is low enough for targeted
| interventions - thorough contact tracing and
| quarantining.
| jschwartzi wrote:
| Authoritarianism is occasionally useful when collective
| action is necessary to prevent a major disaster. Individual
| people have a tendency to take everything they can, like in
| cases where entire stores have been bought out of meat or
| toilet paper or cleaning supplies. An authoritarian approach
| of dictating what a person can and cannot do at a very fine-
| grained level can prevent these things from happening. For
| example, rationing is currently very popular as a way to
| maintain stocks of toilet paper for people who need it.
|
| The key here is that we understand it to be for the common
| good. Whereas most authoritarianism is to force people to fit
| the same mold, here it has an application in keeping people
| from hurting each other by their actions.
| ghaff wrote:
| The thing is that I suspect that the problem is mostly not
| (yes, with some widely publicized exceptions) that you have
| people individually buying hundreds of rolls of toilet
| paper or dozens of eggs, but LOTS of people figuring that a
| bit of buffer stock in the house can't hurt because who
| knows what the future will bring.
|
| I know in my case I did a couple shopping trips before the
| panic buying started. I bought nothing at all out of the
| ordinary but I did stock my house up a bit more than
| average on various things. You multiply that by the
| majority of people and it's not hard to clear out a store.
| [deleted]
| dekhn wrote:
| Generally, in the case of truly existential risk (IE,
| "everybody in the world will die if we don't do this thing")
| people accept the idea that authoritarianism (or rather,
| strong political powers overriding normal privacy concerns)
| are generally considered acceptable. covid itself is not an
| existential risk (nobody believes it will kill everybody, or
| kill enough people to make it impossible for the surivors to
| live), but the effects of long-term economic shutdown could
| pose a very serious risk.
|
| What we want to avoid is _stupid_ responses; for example, for
| all the people complaining that you needed an ID to travel on
| an airplane domestically in the US after 9 /11, the real
| problems were the increased security theater- unnecessary
| changes that mainly existed to make people feel confident
| while travelling.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Using force in the protection of the public good is the
| legitimate reason for forming a government in the first
| place.
|
| Even strict libertarians believe in having a government to
| deal with crime, war and epidemics.
|
| "Authoritarianism" is something else.
| sailfast wrote:
| Why would such a mechanism of control incentivize those that feel
| sick to report their symptoms? Why would one submit to control at
| this level?
|
| This sound similar to ankle-bracelet-level Parole / house arrest
| structures. In fact, I'd prefer that because it would only be
| providing a single source of sensor data to the government
| instead of possibly making my entire phone and location history
| accessible.
| alkonaut wrote:
| It works well enough if everyone considers the best of their
| society as more important than their own freedoms. So it's
| pretty easy to extrapolate where this might work and where it
| would be fruitless.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| The libertarian types who think the gov't shouldn't exercise
| this kind of authoritarian power also think their plan is the
| best for society.
| zajio1am wrote:
| Agreed, ankle-bracelet is less intrusive as one is not bothered
| by check-in phone calls.
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| Tracking like this has been one of the reasons for Singapores
| success to curbing the virus.
|
| https://www.therakyatpost.com/2020/03/23/what-malaysia-can-l...
|
| ""If people don't have symptoms, they're put in home quarantine.
| And home quarantine is very strict. A couple times a day, you'll
| get an SMS and you have to click on a link that will show where
| your phone is.
|
| In case you cheat and leave your phone at home with someone else,
| the government has people knocking on doors now and then. The
| penalties are pretty harsh. ""
| refurb wrote:
| There was a Chinese person in Singapore who had PR and refused
| to follow the quarantine order.
|
| They took away his PR status.
| ValentineC wrote:
| Not only was the person's Permanent Residency revoked, but he
| was barred from re-entering Singapore even as a tourist: http
| s://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid19-coron...
| cma wrote:
| PR?
| [deleted]
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| Permanent Residence
|
| thats good. Rules are rules, especially in these times.
| jordwest wrote:
| Yuval Noah Harari (author of Sapiens) wrote a piece [1] on how
| we're now facing a choice between authoritarian surveillance and
| citizen empowerment, and how a decision made in this crisis could
| set the standard for the future.
|
| [1]
| https://www.ft.com/content/19d90308-6858-11ea-a3c9-1fe6fedcc...
| twomoretime wrote:
| >and how a decision made in this crisis could set the standard
| for the future
|
| This here is really the problem, none of these emergency
| changes should necessarily become permanent. Income tax started
| out as a war fund some one or two hundred years ago...
|
| But I sense we are fighting human nature.
| state_less wrote:
| And if not permanent, more common. Authorities might say, "We
| did it before and this flu is half as dangerous, so just to
| be safe, let's put everyone on the digital leash again." This
| sort control comes with its own costs.
|
| Personally, I'd rather take my risks and live free.
| wahern wrote:
| > Income tax started out as a war fund some one or two
| hundred years ago...
|
| Prior to industrialization almost all profit surpluses
| accrued to the elite, who always _were_ taxed quite heavily.
| Industrialization meant the rise of the wage-earning middle-
| class and a shift in wealth (not to mention expenditures),
| thus the income tax.
| njarboe wrote:
| The revolution in the US from England started with a tax
| revolt. The founders hoped to create a new nation where the
| government didn't try and maximize its tax on citizens and
| just tax enough to maintain the functions of government.
| The wealthy were not taxed at high rates in the US and
| Federal revenue was around 3% of GDP until the income tax
| was implemented. One could hope for a governing class that
| would let people live with low tax burdens, but that seems
| to be a difficult thing to sustain.
| endymi0n wrote:
| A fascinating counterpoint to this is the German government,
| who not just as probably the first country did something
| distinctly different to quarantine (it's called contact
| prohibition and you can go anywhere you like as long as you
| don't meet with more than one person not from your household),
| but also rejected mass cell phone surveillance plans by a large
| margin.
|
| People here are mostly calm, cautious and despite a few
| outliers have largely high compliance rates from everything I
| see on the streets.
|
| More authoritarian governments have the clear upper hand in
| fighting COVID-19, but I'm very curious how this will play out
| and if we can weather this situation just as well as a free and
| privacy-sensitive liberal democracy.
| mmhsieh wrote:
| Taiwan doing this = effective. china doing this = creepy.
| however, probably necessary in both cases. perhaps a rhetorical
| cease-fire globally would benefit us all.
| twomoretime wrote:
| One of those countries is an authoritarian "communist" state
| with a well oiled dissent suppression machine.
| [deleted]
| alkonaut wrote:
| > Taiwan doing this = effective. china doing this = creepy
|
| That's the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy.
| You can have at least a little trust in a democracy to do the
| right thing when it does the necessary evil.
|
| This pandemic isn't a reason to take the pressure of china when
| it comes to human rights. Quite the opposite.
| [deleted]
| perennate wrote:
| It is probably both effective and creepy in both countries. The
| article even talks about how some find it creepy:
|
| > Taiwan's electronic fence has drawn some complaints for its
| intrusiveness.
|
| > "It's creepy that the government is teaming up with
| telecommunications companies to track our phones," said a
| flight attendant in Taipei who was put under 14-day quarantine
| after returning from Europe in mid-March.
|
| > The woman, who identified herself as Xiaomei, said she was
| scolded by a local administrator after failing to pick up a
| check-in phone call in the morning when she was asleep.
|
| > "They said the police will come to me if I missed another
| phone call," she said. "I'm treated like a prisoner."
| [deleted]
| nerdponx wrote:
| It's creepy in Taiwan too. Maybe necessary in the short term,
| but how do you get the government to willingly relinquish this
| kind of control once the need has passed? They will just keep
| making up reasons to keep it going, and eventually it will just
| become normalized and nobody will care that the government is
| literally tracking them 24/7 like Big Brother.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| I wouldn't feel comfortable being stripped of the right to have
| no phone.
| alkonaut wrote:
| It's good that everyone sees and learns what these systems are
| and what they can be used for. Hopefully everyone can figure out
| what they can be used for, if used for the wrong purposes.
| dmix wrote:
| > Quarantine violators can be fined up to T$1 million ($32,955).
|
| Today Taiwan fined a guy $33k USD for breaking quarantine by
| going to a nightclub (not a positive COVID case just a mandatory
| isolation due to travelling):
|
| https://asiatimes.com/2020/03/heavy-fine-for-taiwan-man-for-...
|
| They aren't joking about the fines.
| friedman23 wrote:
| > which has reported only reported 108 cases of the virus
|
| absolutely amazing
| ndiscussion wrote:
| hahahahahahahhahaaha thank you for this
| RaoulP wrote:
| I'm in precautionary quarantine in Taipei right now, after
| arriving from a Level 3 country some days ago.
|
| As a tourist, I had to provide a phone number of a contact person
| in Taiwan upon my arrival. They call the number and confirm it
| works before you even leave the CDC checkpoint at the airport.
| You also self report your health condition. I then stood in line
| for 4 hours to get a special taxi to my place of quarantine.
| Taking public transport is forbidden. Before finally getting into
| the taxi, I was sprayed all over (including the bottom of my
| shoes) with with I presume was disinfectant.
|
| I was later requested to add a police officer on the social media
| platform Line, through which I'm now asked daily how I'm feeling,
| and offered help if I need anything. However I don't think they
| can track my position through it.
|
| There's a stall selling cheap SIM cards for tourists at the
| airport, but it's past the CDC checkpoint, so no tourist has a
| local number to provide. Perhaps they should move it upstream
| (and just provide the cards for free), if they want this
| "electronic fence" to be watertight. I'm not sure but I think I
| could technically go wherever I pleased right now.
| bogomipz wrote:
| I'm curious as a tourist what happens if you don't have a local
| contact? What happens if one has nothing but a hotel booking
| for accommodation instead of a home? I'm guessing that wasn't
| your case but were there others you heard or saw who were just
| regular tourists?
| RaoulP wrote:
| Actually my local contact was simply my Airbnb host. I had
| arranged the Airbnb only earlier that day, In response to the
| new travel restriction.
|
| Other passengers provided the number of their hotel. The CDC
| called the hotel and (I believe) checked whether they were
| aware that these passengers were about to self-quarantine
| there.
|
| Edit: even if you arrived without having anything booked at
| all, you can pay to stay at a designated quarantine hotel,
| though that is more expensive.
|
| Also note that Taiwan doesn't grant the "visa exemption"
| usually granted to tourists, when they now arrive from
| countries assessed as level 3 (requiring home quarantine). I
| was able to enter during a short window of time where home
| quarantine was instated but the new visa rules were not yet
| in effect. So I think it isn't usual for the situation you
| described to occur.
| lifeformed wrote:
| I'm in Taiwan in day 6 of home quarantine right now. We get a
| call every morning to check up on our health. I don't mind it,
| it's a simple and effective method and it gives me confidence in
| the government and society, knowing that everyone is taking the
| situation seriously. Once I'm out of quarantine, I can feel
| comfortable being outside living a normal life, knowing that all
| known potential carriers are contained.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I personally am in the set of people that prefer proactive
| measures like that rather than waiting. I think confinement
| anxiety would become zero in your context.
| bobbyd3 wrote:
| How did they get your information for the daily call? Just
| curious. Is everyone required to submit contact information? Or
| did they already have the required contact info for daily
| health checkups?
| [deleted]
| RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u wrote:
| When you enter, you're required to fill out a health
| declaration form, which asks for your contact info. IIRC,
| it's not cross-referenced with immigration database.
| Naturally, some were not filled out correctly, maliciously or
| not.
|
| Of the reported cases, police got involved to track down said
| persons, and they were fined depending on the severity of the
| infraction. I don't know if the form DB is now cross-checked
| with the immigration DB.
| bobbyd3 wrote:
| Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
| barkingcat wrote:
| There is a national registry - if you have a birth
| certificate, if you have a passport, if you file taxes, if
| you've used a government service (ever), if you visited
| dentist/doctor at any point in your life, they have linked
| those records.
|
| If you are visitor and if they need to, within a few hours of
| landing at an airport and arriving at your destination, you
| will get a phone call at your destination location/hotel, etc
| if the government needs to find you -
|
| Have you ever wondered why you fill out those landing /
| immigration cards that they give you on the plane? For the US
| and Canada, those are only formalities. For Taiwan, the cards
| get scanned in and then the authorities will call the number
| you put on that card to see if you're there or if you've
| checked into the hotel, for example.
|
| In regular times, this system is mostly used for things like
| catching overseas males dodging conscription for example, but
| the system is active already for times like these when it's
| critical to know where a person has gone after they leave the
| airport.
| bobbyd3 wrote:
| Thank you for the thoughtful reply. It definitely helps to
| fill my knowledge gaps due to limited travel outside the
| US.
| x0ul wrote:
| My Taiwanese friends told me about this a few weeks ago, they
| said that the cell phone is issued by the government.
| RaoulP wrote:
| > Once I'm out of quarantine, I can feel comfortable being
| outside living a normal life, knowing that all known potential
| carriers are contained.
|
| I feel mostly the same. That's what I'm looking forward to
| after this quarantine. I'm on day 6 as well - The lack of
| exercise or movement is the worst part.
| beefok wrote:
| That sounds like the way forward, I wish things were working
| out that way here! (USA)
|
| Off-topic but, I just discovered your music on spotify a few
| weeks ago and can't stop listening to your albums, amazing
| stuff man!
| bobbyd3 wrote:
| For instance... do you need a government issued ID to get a SIM
| card for a cell phone?
| RaoulP wrote:
| No, you don't. As a tourist I could get a 30 day (unlimited
| data) SIM card with a phone number, over the counter.
|
| I detailed my experience in another comment.
| huangc10 wrote:
| Like other people are saying, there's definitely ways around
| this. The only reason why Taiwan has been so successful in
| battling Coronavirus is that there is national pride in acting as
| a whole and doing what's best for society. There is huge shame to
| the family for people who defy. Taiwanese people generally know
| what helps society and when to listen. It is the cultural
| influence/mix of Chinese and Japanese governments which are
| deeply ingrained. Source, I am Taiwanese.
| impendia wrote:
| I envy you.
|
| I am American. I live near, and teach at, a large state
| university -- which has closed for the spring semester and
| moved to online instruction.
|
| This past Friday there was a house party across the street --
| presumably all students. Usually I am very chill, but this time
| I called the cops.
| hanspedah wrote:
| That behaviour reminds me of dark age where neighbours spied
| on each other and reported them to the government. And the
| thing that frightens me is that you and several others are
| doing this voluntarily.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| there is absolutely no shame in reporting people to the
| government or the police who threaten the health of others
| by throwing a house party in the midst of a full blown
| pandemic, and to compare it to Stasi surveillance or
| whatever is disingenious and ignorant.
| candu wrote:
| ...except that, in said dark ages, that got people executed
| for treason or witchcraft or what have you.
|
| Here, it could very well save lives. Many democratic
| governments have tried voluntary restrictions - some people
| are complying, but others don't seem to care. What else is
| there but to enforce those restrictions via previously
| existing channels (e.g. Quarantine Act in Canada)?
|
| IMHO, this is similar to reporting someone for smoking near
| a public building, dangerous / drunk driving, or any of a
| number of public health / interest infractions.
| ambicapter wrote:
| People in the US have called the cops on parties since time
| immemorial. I would say it depends 90% on how old your
| neighbors are.
| landryraccoon wrote:
| I don't think it's only culture and this just happened by
| itself. The leadership of President Tsai Ing-wen (Cai Ying Wen
| ) surely was a factor as well.
|
| Culture works in conjunction with good policy and leadership. I
| would be wary of attributing too much to the relatively
| immutable and hand-wavy notion of culture.
| autojoechen wrote:
| Their VP is also an epidemiologist by training, a public
| researcher, and was the health minister during the SARS
| epidemic [0] so definitely the right person in the right job
| at the right time.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Chien-jen
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(page generated 2020-03-23 23:00 UTC)