[HN Gopher] Antique 4x5 camera creates 20 micron photolithograph...
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Antique 4x5 camera creates 20 micron photolithography masks [video]
Author : EvanAnderson
Score : 84 points
Date : 2020-03-29 12:41 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.youtube.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.youtube.com)
| splintercell wrote:
| Cringing it everytime he calls it an antique camera.
|
| This is like a millennial talking about an antique technology
| called 'VHS' tape.
| ginko wrote:
| I sorta agree. For me anything made after WWII isn't really
| antique. "Vintage" maybe. That Graphic View II he used was
| manufactured until 1967 and likely used professionally for many
| decades after.
| ipsum2 wrote:
| Definition of antique:
|
| > An antique is usually an item that is collected or desirable
| because of its age, beauty, rarity, condition, utility,
| personal emotional connection, and/or other unique features. It
| is an object that represents a previous era or time period in
| human history.
|
| Seems fitting to me.
| itgoon wrote:
| Applied Science is one of my favorite YouTube channels.
| canada_dry wrote:
| Ben Krasnow (a Googler by day) has one of the most incredibly
| interesting channels on youtube - and accompanying blog [1].
|
| The effortless way he is able to describe complex processes and
| techniques used in his experiments borders on being _Feynman
| like_.
|
| [1] https://benkrasnow.blogspot.com/
| ddingus wrote:
| I agree. He's a treasure, and I've learned so much. And learned
| it fairly easily.
| bkraz wrote:
| Hi. I'm the creator of this video. Let me know if you have any
| questions.
| GaryNumanVevo wrote:
| Just wanted to say thanks for all the amazing work you put up
| online. It's great to see all the science one can do in a spare
| garage.
| IIAOPSW wrote:
| I've been following you since you made your own aerogel.
|
| Now that you're working with thought emporium, are you worried
| you might one day be replaced with headcheese?
| angel_j wrote:
| Can you do videolithography next? Soft circuits of some kind.
| Then we can use machine learning to generate purposeful
| circuits--with CNNs, GANs, etc.
| IIAOPSW wrote:
| Oh there will be NN coming out of this project...in a manner
| of speaking.
| madaxe_again wrote:
| I used to travel with a crown graphic - pretty much the same
| camera as in the video, shooting colour positive. You can do some
| great stuff with them, and tilt-shift is trivial, if that's your
| thing. Quality on slow film is just crazy - I've a shot of an ex,
| she's half-frame, and you can see the second hand on her watch -
| you can get very fine focus with a loupe, and having a Polaroid
| back to do some instant tests was a godsend - but you can't get
| the film for it any more.
|
| I have no idea where he's finding film so cheap - I stopped when
| it was costing me PS5 per exposure.
|
| It also folded up into a very neat little box, which is
| irresistible to children - sadly one was handed it by a friend,
| who promptly destroyed it.
| piffey wrote:
| There are still photographers shooting 4x5 in DC professionally
| with the press core. One is David Burnett and the other I can't
| remember off hand, but he's been shooting 4x5 of the
| congressional hearings. You just can't beat the quality of
| large format. With Kodak releasing Ektachrome in 4x5 this last
| January I've been shooting more and more of it. It's expensive
| for chromes, but shooting HP5 sheets is pretty cheap for the
| quality of the output in the end.
| staticautomatic wrote:
| For color, I think it really depends on your willingness to use
| expired film. I've shot mostly expired film for about 15 years,
| and once you've tried a range of emulsions of various ages and
| provenance, it's not hard to figure out how what's going to
| perform well under what conditions. Even 20 year old color neg
| performs pretty well with only modest overexposure. B&W you can
| still get down to about $1/sheet if you're willing to shoot
| Arista.
| paulmd wrote:
| Impossible Project has brought back peel-apart 8x10 polaroid
| film. Currently $18 a shot, so not for the faint of wallet, but
| perhaps they will bring back 4x5 someday as well.
| ngcc_hk wrote:
| Expensive roller to "develop" it though.
| lokl wrote:
| If you want cheap film for large format, shoot x-ray film.
| foldr wrote:
| Are you sure you mean a Crown Graphic? A Crown Graphic is about
| as different as it's possible to be from the camera in the
| video while still being a 4x5 camera
| (https://vintagecameralab.com/wp-content/uploads/graflex-
| crow...). It also doesn't make tilt-shift movements as easy as
| you're suggesting.
| Finnucane wrote:
| The camera in the video is a Graflex Graphic View, so made by
| the same manufacturer, but yeah, totally different in use. A
| Crown does not have the same level of movements. But they
| [Graphic Views] are relative bargains for view cameras if you
| can find one in decent shape.
| poooogles wrote:
| >I have no idea where he's finding film so cheap - I stopped
| when it was costing me PS5 per exposure.
|
| Ilford is PS1.50 a shot + chemicals. Rodinal is pretty cheap
| and if you're printing then the fixer cost is negligible.
| foldr wrote:
| OP mentioned color positive film, which can go for around PS5
| a sheet.
| klodolph wrote:
| Going to admit that I only scanned through the video.
|
| More so than in smaller formats, B&W is cheaper. Older style
| emulsions (cubic grain) are also cheaper than newer style
| (tabular / shell / whatever). Litho film is cheaper still.
|
| B&W is USD$1-$3 per shot in 4x5, and if you process yourself
| you're only paying for your own time and consumables. Newer
| styles like Delta, T-Max go for $2-$3. Older styles like HP5,
| FP4, Tri-X go for $1.50-$2.50. Budget lines like Arista can be
| found around $1/sheet.
|
| Ortho litho (what is being used in the video) has always been
| dirt cheap by comparison. It's like $0.30 per sheet. Basically,
| all of the technical innovation that has gone into modern film
| is simply not used in ortho litho. You just need high contrast
| and resolution, that's it. So you don't need complicated
| sensitizing dyes or anything of that sort.
| Palomides wrote:
| I literally just bought a box of the film he's using here, it's
| a high contrast red-insensitive film, $15 for 50 sheets,
| https://www.freestylephoto.biz/531345-Arista-Ortho-Litho-Fil...
|
| developing it for normal contrast images is more difficult but
| not impossible
| tecleandor wrote:
| Seems similar to xray ortho film, green or blue sensitive,
| and is pretty cheap.
| staticautomatic wrote:
| I've shot a ton of Kodak Ortho film in 4x5 at EI 3, 6, and
| 12. It's actually super easy to develop. I recommend stand
| development in 1:100 HC-110 with occasional agitation. The
| developer basically exhausts after 10 or 12 minutes depending
| on the temperature, which happens to be pretty much exactly
| the right development time, so it's pretty much impossible to
| over-develop.
| chongli wrote:
| This is so cool! Questions for engineers:
|
| How much work would it take to go from this process to producing
| a working chip in his garage, like a 6502 or something? Would it
| be at all feasible? He did point out a ton of defects in the
| final product, probably due to dust or scratches in his
| equipment/materials. Would it be possible to clean this up enough
| to get 1-2 usable chips from a single sheet of 4x5 film? Without
| turning his garage into a clean room?
| Cerium wrote:
| Here is a blog on home IC production:
| http://sam.zeloof.xyz/first-ic/
|
| Having done some work in a university lab, I have no desire to
| be involved in silicon work in a home environment. It requires
| dangerous chemicals, and lots of equipment and dedication.
|
| A short list of what I remember: - Spin coater - Some solution
| of exposure of masks - Various chemical baths (HH, piranha,
| etc) in a dedicated area. - Inspection microscope - Tube oven -
| Vapor deposition - A way to measure film thickness
| bkraz wrote:
| Sam Zeloof (also on YouTube) has already done it!
| https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7E8-0Ou69hwScPW1_fQApA Check
| out all of his amazing work.
| bane wrote:
| I can't answer most of this since I don't know, but the first
| 6502 was fabricated at 8 microns. I wonder if a chip made at
| 15-20 microns would work just as well?
| cculpepper wrote:
| Ben's interview on The Amp Hour [0] is pretty great as well.
| Awesome person, amazingly the same in person as in his video
| persona.
|
| [0] https://theamphour.com/480-an-interview-with-ben-
| krasnow-8-y...
| bane wrote:
| One of my coworkers did his dissertation on photolithography, I
| grew up in a family printing shop and we followed a remarkably
| similar process to generate the metal offset plates that were
| used in the presses. It turns out that the processes are so
| similar that my colleague and I often frequently remark about it
| during idle chit-chat.
|
| There's pitifully few good explanation videos about the printing
| version of this process, but here's a quick video (in Chinese,
| but if you watch the OP's video this one should be easy to
| follow) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KENIyBWNhyk
|
| The process in the printing industry has gotten very refined as
| well: you can go directly from a digital image file to a plate in
| one entirely automated step:
|
| https://youtu.be/mA8Dnp0rp3Y
|
| https://youtu.be/TeJ_STTfBsI
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