[HN Gopher] Edward Bernays and the birth of public relations (2015)
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Edward Bernays and the birth of public relations (2015)
Author : haltingproblem
Score : 92 points
Date : 2020-04-10 16:58 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (theconversation.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (theconversation.com)
| grawprog wrote:
| I learned a lot of the techniques pioneered by Bernays in school.
| It was the basis of a lot of our public communication lessons.
| I'd always assumed these were just things that had been
| collectively figured out over time, I never realized there was
| one person essentially responsive for spreading that kind of
| manipulation.
|
| I wonder what the world would be like if major corporations,
| governments and just about everybody trying to convince people of
| something hadn't latched onto his ideas and built modern society
| around them.
| bnegreve wrote:
| > I never realized there was one person essentially responsive
| for spreading that kind of manipulation.
|
| Maybe the others have been forgotten ... Bernays was most
| probably at managing his own publicity as well.
| spondyl wrote:
| Hah! Funny, I was just talking to my flatmate yesterday about
| Bernays :)
|
| +1 on the recommendation for Century of the Self by Adam Curtis.
|
| There's a snippet in there about how Bernays was brought in
| during the creation of easy bake goods ie add 2 eggs and some
| butter to make some fudge (as I did yesterday)
|
| Anyway, they initially tried to just have no ingredients required
| but during trials with housewives, found they felt like imposters
| who lacked agency during the baking process.
|
| The solution? The baker adds one egg, which isn't included in the
| ready mix ingredients
| bmwracer wrote:
| "The Century Of The Self" by Adam Curtis is a great documentary
| series on Bernays and the PR industry he invented. Gets scary
| towards the end when you realize that mainstream political
| discourse is now managed using the same PR methods that took over
| the business world a generation before.
| mthoms wrote:
| This documentary series forever changed my view of the world
| and how it works. Everyone should see it (and to be thorough,
| read it's criticisms).
|
| I also recommend his follow-up series "The Power of Nightmares"
| for the same reason --
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTg4qnyUGxg
| aspenmayer wrote:
| Great recommendation. His newest long work "HyperNormalisation"
| (2016) [0][1] is even more timely and covers PR in a modern
| context, and explores how it fits in with modern hacktivism,
| international proxy wars, warlords current and former, Occupy
| movements and Arab Spring, and he even manages to fit in the
| Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, Barlow's Declaration of the
| Independence of Cyberspace, and early phreaker culture icons
| Phiber Optik and Acid Phreak.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh2cDKyFdyU (full 166
| minute documentary)
| nosuchthing wrote:
| Here's a better source for Adam Curtis's series:
|
| https://thoughtmaybe.com/by/adam-curtis/ The
| Century of The Self
|
| https://thoughtmaybe.com/the-century-of-the-self/
| HyperNormalisation
|
| https://thoughtmaybe.com/hypernormalisation/
| All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace
|
| https://thoughtmaybe.com/all-watched-over-by-machines-of-
| lov... The Power of Nightmares
|
| https://thoughtmaybe.com/the-power-of-nightmares/
| It Felt Like a Kiss
|
| https://thoughtmaybe.com/it-felt-like-a-kiss/
| aspenmayer wrote:
| Nice set of links. Do you know much about the site
| thoughtmaybe.com? Seems interesting but I am always wary of
| sites like these with subscription links and unclear
| provenance of the videos they use.
|
| For what it's worth, here are some links to Adam Curtis
| videos on the Internet Archive and a bonus link to Curtis
| chatting with the director of the Dick Cheney biopic
| "Vice," Adam McKay.
|
| https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Adam%20Cu
| r...
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/jan/18/adam-curtis-
| and...
| nosuchthing wrote:
| You're wary of sites with opt in email list subscription
| links?
|
| From the site header ABOUT page:
|
| https://thoughtmaybe.com/about/
|
| "Thought Maybe is a 100% independent, autonomous, not-
| for-profit, self-directed project that exists to inspire
| action on a whole bunch of issues surrounding modern
| society, industrial civilisation, globalised dominant
| culture.
|
| This website does not use nor support corporate
| "communication networks" such as YouTube, Facebook,
| Google, Twitter, etc. We think its important to maintain
| an independent platform for publishing--insofar as it's
| possible to do on the Internet of corporate-controlled
| gateways or ISPs.
|
| We run this project using Open Source Software and
| embrace the notion of Creative Commons, and supportive
| sharing.
|
| --
|
| We don't run advertising on our site because we find it
| repugnant, compromising and unwanted!
|
| This project is entirely not-for-profit--an open library
| funded by a small crew of dedicated media activists
| throughout the world. This freely accessible library is
| our labour of love project for positive social and
| political change. Even though it is a hard job, we don't
| get paid.
|
| We don't receive any outside funds of any type, and we
| don't receive nor would we accept money from any
| corporate or government entities. Our vested interest
| lays solely with humanity and the natural world, not this
| culture, not this system.
|
| --
|
| This library is independent and autonomous. It is a
| labour of love run by a small crew of dedicated activists
| throughout the world. We have no affiliations and are not
| part of any organisation or group, which means no vested
| interest, which means we can publish what is needed
| without interference, censorship or vetoing.
|
| We don't work with any commercial organisations,
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| cultivate and nurture an effective culture of resistance
| to the pertinent social and political issues outlined in
| this library. It is why filmmakers make films, it's why
| we do what we do to support getting them seen and acted
| on. Where it goes from here is up to you..."
| olivermarks wrote:
| This Adam Curtis link now has deleted youtube videos but is
| still useful for searching episodes by title
| http://adamcurtisfilms.blogspot.com I've watched everything
| he's done and flew to NY from the west coast to see Massive
| Attack vs Adam Curtis which is probably the best live event
| I've ever been to. https://youtu.be/yv_S8GdylEA
| pengaru wrote:
| For those wishing to watch this, it's all on youtube here
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s
|
| While dated by now, it's rather disturbing how clear the
| lineage is from where the show ends to the current "social
| media" era. The breadth and efficacy of public manipulation is
| arguably greater than ever, and it's a clear threat to
| democracy IMHO.
| lihaciudaniel wrote:
| It is a constant and universal truth that irrationality of
| the masses exist. And then there are those who think that
| they can manipulate through propaganda
| AndrewBissell wrote:
| Given the way they are pushing the systems they control to
| the breaking point for the sake of ever-more-marginal gains
| in their already staggering wealth and power, it's harder
| and harder to view elites as any more rational than the
| masses.
| nikofeyn wrote:
| i think it's less a threat to democracy and more that it's
| already ended democracy (what little was implemented in the
| first place) in the u.s. (i'm just repeating your use of the
| word democracy, as there's an implicit assumption there that
| democracy is a cherished thing being destroyed.)
|
| adam curtis' other documentaries build upon similar ideas,
| converging to the (relatively) recent _hypernormalization_.
| cronix wrote:
| I was going to post something similar. AC is where I first
| learned of Bernays.
| stuxnet79 wrote:
| I almost regret watching this documentary 2 years ago because
| it caused me to question various fundamental assumptions about
| _who_ I am and as a result triggered an identity crisis that
| I'm still in the grips of.
|
| Definitely a top doc. It's a good starter, but I'd recommend
| any viewers to continue exploring adjacent topics further with
| the primary reference materials mentioned in the doc.
| vinniejames wrote:
| Coronavirus has a great PR team
| lowdose wrote:
| I bet it was a boomer.
| axiomdata316 wrote:
| I first learned about Bernays from attending a live episode of
| "Stuff You Should Know" in Los Angeles. The full show was about
| Edward Bernays. Hair nets and Bananas both owe their popularity
| to Bernays. The "Stuff You Should Know" podcast that eventually
| posted nicely covers all the points but I couldn't find it on
| their website since iHeart Radio bought them and removed their
| website.
| kyuudou wrote:
| Also got more women to smoke cigarettes:
|
| More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom
|
| Sinister! Well, great for the tobacco companies. Humanity
| overall? Not so much.
| ncmncm wrote:
| The book "Men Who Stare at Goats" (no idea about the movie) is a
| terrifying look at the weaponization of the technique turned on
| the American public.
|
| You have to read between the lines: most people believe the CIA
| really _was_ exploring use of ESP against the Soviets. Very, very
| few understand that it was a successful propaganda operation
| against the American public. Those few also have a clue how we
| were collectively convinced that invading Iraq would be a really
| good idea.
| AndrewBissell wrote:
| Recently read this after seeing your recommendation on the
| Project MKULTRA thread. Very entertaining and eye opening,
| appreciate you pointing me to it.
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| They were studying the human mind, and the esp angle was just a
| subset. The propaganda techniques are also a subset. Hence it
| is wrong to say the former was fake and it was just the latter.
| They were doing it all, and seeing what
| stuck.(mkultra/artichoke, etc) Maybe I'm misunderstanding your
| comment, could you elaborate on your meaning?
| wilsonchaney wrote:
| "The Attention Merchants" by Tim Wu nicely covers some of
| Bernays' influence, in the context of advertising and other forms
| of attention capture from the 19th century through present day.
| Can't recommend the book enough.
| staticautomatic wrote:
| Bernays' work is certainly important but I think the amount of
| credit he's typically given for the idea that propaganda could be
| wielded in peacetime is undeserved. That distinction really
| belongs to Walter Lippmann, who had begun formulating the idea
| 5-10 years earlier and articulating it in Public Opinion (1922)
| and The Phantom Public (1925), well before Propaganda (1928).
| Propaganda was really more of a formalization of something that
| was already understood to exist.
| hhs wrote:
| Also enjoyed reading Bernays and Lippmann.
|
| Please note, though, that recent experimental research has also
| pushed back a bit on the impact of propaganda and human
| gullibility [0].
|
| [0]: https://press.princeton.edu/ideas/what-do-you-really-know-
| ab...
| staticautomatic wrote:
| This book is not itself experimental research. At best it
| appears to engage in some amount of summarizing experimental
| research. On the other hand, the descriptions or excerpts
| from the book on the linked page themselves criticize the
| applicability of various kinds of experimental research. And
| in other news, these are some pretty radical assertions
| considering how broad they are. All of this is to say that if
| the book isn't some kind of meticulous, incredibly well-
| supported, seminal take-down of what we think we know about a
| variety of fields, I'm gonna guess it's either chock full of
| anecdotes a la Gladwell or Brooks, or cherry-picking evidence
| a la Taleb.
| hhs wrote:
| Agreed, it's a summary of many experimental research
| studies and the author does make radical assertions.
| seagullz wrote:
| Spot on. Besides, W. Lippmann was apparently a lot more
| sophisticated with capacity to influence wider circles of
| intellectuals and mandarins. The title of Edward Herman & Noam
| Chomsky's book "Manufacturing Consent" was borrowed from
| Lippmann's writing where he was making the case for the elites
| to manage the perception of the meddlesome public.
| staticautomatic wrote:
| Yes. However, I don't think it's accurate to characterize
| Lippmann's assessment of the public as "meddlesome". It's
| true that he was an elitist, but Lippmann's brand of elitism
| stemmed from the empirical observation that governing a large
| population is clearly too complex for even a representative
| democracy to do well (and is certainly more difficult than
| proponents of democracy are willing to admit, if not
| impossible). Unlike most forms of elitism, his view of the
| public as incapable of governing itself was not rooted in
| ideas about their moral inferiority but in the
| acknowledgement that it just isn't functionally possible for
| them to run the show. This observation led to three
| conclusions (which IMO are correct): 1) That democracy at
| scale always regresses to partisanship, 2) The idea that "the
| people" actually govern themselves in any real democracy is
| largely a farce, and 3) That a system of "representatives"
| and bureaucrats running the show is itself elitist.
| 3xblah wrote:
| "... the idea that propaganda could be wielded in peacetime..."
|
| That is to say, what is now known as "PR" came from the
| military, who had trained people how to do this kind of work,
| e.g., in the role of "press agent".
|
| It may have existed before the First World War^a but its
| popular use by the private sector may have happened only after
| more men had been trained in "PR" and had performed this work
| for the military.
|
| [a] https://www.coursehero.com/tutors-
| problems/Accounting/970203...
| was8309 wrote:
| (unless i'm misreading what she's saying) another view is "..
| Lippmann ... was a vehement critic of propaganda .. "
|
| https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/viewFile/1955/907
| staticautomatic wrote:
| That may be true but it's not at odds with what I wrote.
| Lippmann was a critic of what he believed to be the
| inherently partisan nature of democracy. It would be
| unsurprising, then, for him to be a critic of wielding
| partisanship. It would be fair to say that Lippmann figured
| out the system's structure and how it could be manipulated,
| and then Bernays wrote the playbook for manipulating it.
| coliveira wrote:
| The fact that we nowadays attribute this to Bernays' shows how
| he was a master of his trade.
| calimac wrote:
| Interesting point. Burners lived in the ad man world of fifth
| avenue conducting experiment (consumer study) one after another
| designed to leverage the launch of a society changing product
| advertising campaign.
|
| Point being nobody even comes close to having such a massive
| impact on society through advertising as Bernays and by
| extension the fifth avenue agencys he worked with (olgolvy).
|
| Touches of freedom Women's cigarettes at Macy's day parade
|
| Fluoride in water dental association
|
| Bacon/ steak and eggs - hearty breakfast - heart association
|
| Ivory soap
|
| Etc...
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| The book Propaganda is good, but you can feel the naive vision
| of capitalism, corporation and power in general. The author
| seems to genuinely believe the invisible hand will balance
| things out, that people won't abuse their power and that ethics
| were a stronger motivator than money in the system.
| AQuantized wrote:
| As I understand it Bernays was already working in the field
| long before publishing his book. His early work as a proto PR
| agent for the singer Caruso, fabricating myths about his
| prowess, does lend credence to this, as Caruso died in 1921.
|
| It seems fair to say that there were many early adopters of
| this type of propaganda.
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