[HN Gopher] Ask HN: I'm a software engineer going blind, how sho...
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Ask HN: I'm a software engineer going blind, how should I prepare?
I'm a 24 y/o full stack engineer (I know some of you are rolling
your eyes right now, just highlighting that I have experience on
frontend apps as well as backend architecture). I've been working
professionally for ~7 years building mostly javascript projects but
also some PHP. Two years ago I was diagnosed with a condition
called "Usher's Syndrome" - characterized by hearing loss, balance
issues, and progressive vision loss. I know there are blind
software engineers out there. My main questions are: - Are there
blind frontend engineers? - What kinds of software engineering
lend themselves to someone with limited vision? Backend only? -
Besides a screen reader, what are some of the best tools for
building software with limited vision? - Does your company employ
blind engineers? How well does it work? What kind of engineer are
they? I'm really trying to get ahead of this thing and prepare
myself as my vision is degrading rather quickly. I'm not sure what
I can do if I can't do SE as I don't have any formal education in
anything. I've worked really hard to get to where I am and don't
want it to go to waste. Thank you for any input, and stay safe out
there! Edit: Thank you all for your links, suggestions, and moral
support, I really appreciate it. Since my diagnosis I've slowly
developed a crippling anxiety centered around a feeling that I need
to figure out the rest of my life before it's too late. I know I
shouldn't think this way but it is hard not to. I'm very
independent and I feel a pressure to "show up." I will look into
these opportunities mentioned and try to get in touch with some
more members of the blind engineering community.
Author : zachrip
Score : 337 points
Date : 2020-04-19 21:33 UTC (1 hours ago)
| babaganoosh89 wrote:
| I knew a blind software engineer that was decent, he'd use
| Eclipse and have his screen reader speed turned very fast.
| jka wrote:
| While I don't yet know a ton about the accessibility software
| development community, I've discovered Deque Labs[1] while
| looking into some accessibility tooling.
|
| They have really good resources and training around accessibility
| for the web, and some of the software they develop[2] is
| incorporated into Google Lighthouse.
|
| Their guides and videos might help you get a sense for how other
| people use alternative access methods to interface with the web.
|
| With both the skills to write software and a deeper understanding
| of the use cases you'll be well-positioned to help improve things
| for a lot of people - I'm sure it could be tough at times, but
| stick with it, and best of luck to you.
|
| [1] - https://www.deque.com/services/accessibility-empathy-lab/
|
| [2] - https://github.com/dequelabs/axe-core
| ddevault wrote:
| I recommend using a tiling window manager - they allow you to
| organize windows logically, rather than spatially.
|
| I have also written some plugins for using Vim (text editing) and
| Weechat (IRC chat) with speech synthesis:
|
| https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/dotfiles/tree/master/lib/vim/vim...
|
| https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/dotfiles/tree/master/.weechat/py...
|
| And I have a script for Sway (a tiling window manager) which also
| gives you audible cues:
|
| https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/dotfiles/tree/master/bin/swaytal...
|
| All of this is somewhat incomplete, but it's a good starting
| point if you want to get used to them and work on improvements
| while you're still sighted. Good luck, and let me know if I can
| be of service.
| acdha wrote:
| I'm really sorry that you have to face that and wish I had better
| advice.
|
| My employer is the U.S. federal government and I would highly
| recommend considering looking at government (or contractor) jobs:
| we take very seriously the need to serve ALL of the public and
| front-end engineers who deeply understand and value accessibility
| are extremely valuable contributors since they can provide the
| subjective guidance which no level of automated tool or guideline
| can provide.
|
| The GSA's 18F has a great guide to building accessible websites:
|
| https://accessibility.18f.gov/
|
| (The BBC guide is also good:
| http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/)
|
| I'd treat that as both an area to learn the tools for personal
| reasons - e.g. get comfortable with the accessibility tools in
| your favorite operating system - and as an area to learn more.
| There's a pretty good story for web accessibility these days but
| a lot of people do not make much use of it and someone who can
| make an entire team more efficient has a somewhat uncommon
| selling point.
| smanatstpete wrote:
| I work with many engineers who became blind in a variety of ways.
| If you provide your email address, I can introduce you to them.
| Here is my temporary email (docesar172 at lagsixtome dot com) if
| you do not want your contact to be published.
| kolanos wrote:
| You can definitely continue as a software engineer. I'm living
| proof. It won't be easy, especially at first. For a while it will
| feel like you're working twice as hard just to keep up with your
| sighted peers. But eventually, the better you get with your
| tools, you'll find you have some superpowers over your sighted
| peers. For example, as you get better with a screen reader,
| you'll be bumping the speech rate up to 1.75-2X normal speech.
| You'll be the only one who can understand your screen reader.
| You'll become the fastest and most proficient proof reader on
| your team. Typos will be easily spotted as they just won't "sound
| right". It will be like listening to a familiar song and then
| hitting an off note in the melody. And this includes code. Also,
| because code is no longer represented visually as blocks, you'll
| find you're building an increasingly detailed memory model of
| your code. Sighted people do this, too, but they tend to
| visualize in their mind. When you abandon this two dimensional
| representation, your non-visual mental map suffers no spatial
| limits. You'll be amazed how good your memory will get without
| the crutch of sight. Good luck. If you're a Mac user you can hit
| me up for tool recommendations. My email is my username at gmail
| dot com.
| MattPalmer1086 wrote:
| I met a blind front end web developer a few years ago. I'm afraid
| I don't have any details on his setup, but they do exist.
| mbutsk wrote:
| Accessibility testing/engineering is a very important niche
| within software engineering. You could very easily build a career
| that will enhance the lives of others in similar situations.
| imprettycool wrote:
| If I were in your position, I'd probably get a job at someplace
| like Facebook or Google. They're huge, cushy companies and
| probably have resources for SWEs that go blind. Who knows maybe
| you can go on disability while you're working there, and never
| have to work again in your life
|
| BTW, I don't know if asking the internet for advice on this
| subject is a good idea. I imagine it's gonna be mostly
| speculation. I'd seek out other people that have firsthand
| experience (i.e. they went blind) and ask what they did and how
| they're doing...
| hliyan wrote:
| So sorry to hear this! I have no expert advice to offer, but have
| you thought about developing a very high level of expertise in
| some area (preferably in some areas of back end architecture)
| which allows you to consult without having to write code (unless
| that is what you truly want to do).
|
| Best of luck!
| schoen wrote:
| You might want to check out some things like
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/bh0vm0/emacspeak_how...
|
| https://stackoverflow.com/questions/118984/how-can-you-progr...
|
| and also contact some individual programmers with visual
| impairments.
|
| I don't have particular expertise in this area but I remember
| meeting a completely blind software developer in 1995 or 1996
| (when presumably the tools available were much more limited!). He
| said that he had successfully pursued this career for a number of
| years already at that time. However, I think the things he was
| working with would be things that you'd consider more to be
| backend engineering.
|
| I also know a computer scientist who is blind and who has
| continued researching, publishing, and teaching, but as he works
| in theory, his work might also feel more backend-like.
|
| > - Besides a screen reader, what are some of the best tools for
| building software with limited vision?
|
| If you decide to learn Braille well, Braille terminals are still
| a thing:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_braille_display
|
| (You might have seen one used in the movie _Sneakers_!)
|
| Some fluent Braille readers can use these terminals at _very_
| high speeds (although people who use screen readers also often
| get used to using their screen readers at extremely high speeds).
|
| > - Are there blind frontend engineers?
|
| I know you might not want to pigeonhole yourself and work
| specifically on disability-related projects, but a lot of
| companies are trying to ensure accessibility of their web sites
| and so are interested in having developers with specific
| disabilities to help make sure that that works out properly. I
| believe there are consultancies of people with specific
| impairments who develop (and test) UI for accessibility to users
| with similar disabilities.
| gobins wrote:
| In a similar situation though as not as bad as what you have and
| have thought I should prepare for the worst. I have CSR(Central
| Serous Retinopathy) for the last 3 years. It come and goes but my
| eyesight gets worse every time it comes back. Stay strong.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I just want to throw this out there, just in case you haven't
| deeply considered it. I'm sure others will answer your question
| more properly.
|
| Have you considered that maybe you don't want to be doing
| software engineering and with this precious remaining time would
| rather prepare for something entirely different? Not sure what
| your financial situation will be or if you live somewhere with
| sufficient social support, but if you're going to be blind for
| life (and you're very young), optimizing for employment (ie. "I'm
| already a software engineer, may as well commit to that") might
| not be the best way to live a full and fulfilling life.
| soneca wrote:
| I am failing to see where are you coming from with this. If
| anything, changing careers to software development made me live
| a _more_ fulfilling life in the last 3 years.
|
| What would be your suggestion for the best way to live a full
| and fulfilling life?
| kolanos wrote:
| Do what you're passionate about. You're going to have a
| learning curve no matter what, might as well enjoy the ramp
| up as much as possible.
| fctorial wrote:
| You should try out a lisp. They have the simplest syntax and the
| code is quite concise.
|
| > This code turned out to be a lot more complicated than I
| anticipated. The patch ended up adding a hundred lines of Arc. A
| hundred lines of Arc! Do you have any idea how many lines of Arc
| that is? I just looked through the history and the last commit
| that added that many lines of code was over two years ago when we
| got Arc to compile to JS. [1]
|
| Clojure is quite well documented, and you can do full stack
| development with it (clojurescript). Intellij has good support
| for it, and it stores the state of code as an ast. I think there
| are addons for dealing with ast (search/replace) as well.
|
| Also, you might want to "settle down" wrt your dev setup (tech,
| tools), since jumping from project to project, tool to tool won't
| be that easy. Maybe pick a self contained environment you can
| learn inside out (smalltalk, tools.deps).
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22767204
| godzillabrennus wrote:
| If you are in the USA then I think the best profession for the
| blind is the legal trade. Do you have it in you to change
| careers?
|
| Courts in the USA are by and large accommodating thanks to the
| ADA.
|
| Your technical background, with the loss of vision, with a legal
| degree, and I think you'd have a very long, lucrative, and
| fulfilling career.
| mburst wrote:
| I would recommend trying to study up on Section 508 compliance
| https://www.hhs.gov/web/section-508/index.html. It's a set of
| rules that all government orgs in the US must follow for making
| sure their content is accessible. If you do end up becoming
| visually impaired you'll end up with a unique perspective on
| building accessible websites.
| eli wrote:
| Most US universities need to comply too
| iandanforth wrote:
| Are there consulting firms that specialize in 508 audits? Seems
| like a potentially lucrative field given the activist lawsuits
| that happen in this area.
|
| https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ada-website-litigation-...
| NitroNills wrote:
| edbrowse(1) is developed by seeing-impaired person - it's a
| webbrowser with ed(1)-like interface which also does JS. I've
| heard it's awesome for scripting! Though it requires som
| ed(1)ucation.
| mattwad wrote:
| I just learned how to make my website accessible to screen
| readers (using aria labels, tabindex, etc). You should definitely
| check it out now to learn how it works. I only did part of my
| website and it seems like a full-time job. I'm not blind, so I am
| sure I could have done much better if I was more familiar with
| tools like Mac's VoiceOver. I am sure there's a market for these
| skills, especially in any company that has a decent amount of
| users. Best of luck!
| elviejo wrote:
| Use a text editor such as Emacs or Vim.
|
| Migrate from front end development to backend...
|
| Learn to live in the command line.
|
| Take car of your soul
| NitroNills wrote:
| edbrowse(1) is developed by seeing-impaired person (Karl Dahlke)
| - it's a webbrowser with ed(1)-like interface which also does JS.
| I've heard it's awesome for scripting! Though it requires som
| ed(1)ucation.
|
| http://edbrowse.org/
| hopia wrote:
| https://www.vincit.fi/en/software-development-450-words-per-...
| profitor wrote:
| I don't know if this is helpful to you, but recently I stumbled
| across this[1] post by a blind developer. He's touching briefly
| on his setup of choice and what tools he chose and why.
|
| [1]https://www.vincit.fi/en/software-development-450-words-
| per-...
|
| I wish you the best of luck.
| tomohawk wrote:
| Consider getting a job at a fortune 100 company or with the
| federal government, or with a company that does contracting for
| the federal government.
| tjohns wrote:
| There are quite a few blind engineers at my company.
|
| Most of the folks I've worked with are either backend engineers
| or working on frontend accessibility-related features. (Frontend
| engineering doesn't just include design for sighted users!)
|
| While I don't have any experience myself, I'd recommend looking
| at braille displays in addition to screen readers:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_braille_display
| gtm1260 wrote:
| I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm curious what people's opinions are
| specifically around frontend. How can software enable someone
| who's blind to ensure that a frontend matches a design? Can we as
| a community develop new tools for this?
| adrianbye wrote:
| I'd suggest making the focus being what you need in order to
| support yourself as a blind person, not being a software
| engineer.
|
| There may be particular things blind people excel at and do very
| well with. Use a list of those things as your starting point.
|
| Perhaps software engineering is on that list, but I'd make sure.
| csdreamer7 wrote:
| Please watch this video on the i3 desktop environment. The
| windows are managed and can be controlled by keystrokes.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_RL_Q8CR78
|
| From 2015, a blind engineer uses emacspeak to write C++.
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/how-blind-google-engineer-wr...
|
| I have read some HN comments in the past from blind engineers.
| Not sure if they are frontend.
| paypalcust83 wrote:
| Accessibility engineering perhaps.
|
| I'm fairly certain I'm going to get ARMD because of genetics and
| family history, and won't have anyone to care for me. It's going
| to suck.
|
| As my late grandfather said: _Getting old isn 't for wimps, but
| the alternative is worse._
| foxx-boxx wrote:
| Quit programming and get a job at delivery or Walmart. This job
| is killing you.
| vilvadot wrote:
| There is this guy who is pretty well known in the spanish dev
| community:
|
| https://twitter.com/kastwey
|
| https://www.xataka.com/otros/soy-ciego-nacimiento-asi-mi-tra...
|
| He often talks at conferences about his situation and setup, so
| if you understand spanish you might be able to find quite a lot
| on this. Also it might be worth a shot contacting him for more
| info.
|
| Best of luck with your new adventure.
| RickJWagner wrote:
| First, I'm very sorry this is happening to you. I hope to later
| read where you have been very successful.
|
| I work for Red Hat, we have a successful executive named Chad E.
| Foster (https://chadefoster.com/), he has some recorded talks
| that outline some of the pitfalls he's encountered and the ways
| he found around them. Maybe his advice can be of use. (You might
| even consider reaching out. He seems a very approachable guy.)
|
| I worked closely with another person who went blind. He relied on
| big monitors and monitor settings to help him.
|
| Good luck, we'll all be rooting for you.
| aknftech wrote:
| I can't imagine how hard it is to keep positive in this situation
| and I think it's great that you're asking these practical
| questions to help your future self out. I hope you get some
| really useful answers from the rest of the community.
|
| I don't have the answers to those questions but I did want to
| drop a line of encouragement and say this; your hard work up
| until now will not be wasted, whatever you end up doing. You can
| -- and will -- find ways to continue to stretch and apply your
| engineering mind, and most likely in ways that you can't predict
| right now.
|
| Later on, you will look back and find that nobody would be better
| placed for whatever you're doing at that moment than you.
|
| Finally (and I'm not saying this to deter you from continuing
| down the SE route, there are plenty of examples online of
| partially-sighted or blind SEs doing very well and you're
| attitude is indicative that you should experience no different),
| but everyone of us has so much more to give to this world than
| just our skillset, and you don't need a qualification for the
| things that truly matter in life.
|
| Keep going and I echo the other commenter, take car of your soul,
| it's important.
| auslegung wrote:
| There is a lot of good advice here, and I know you can continue
| to do SE if you're committed. In addition to the advice here, you
| could consider
|
| - finding businesses who would benefit from employing a blind SE.
| I have no idea who, but probably companies who care a lot about
| accessibility - you could become a tech project manager or
| another career that is tangential to SE. I know there will be
| obstacles to overcome, but maybe not as many as in SE, idk.
| wirthjason wrote:
| While I don't have this my grandmother became blind so there
| could be a genetic disposition and I've wondered (worried?) about
| what would happen if I did. I would focus on the things I could
| manipulate with my mind rather than a keyboard and monitor.
| Basically this boils down to the algorithms and mathematical
| aspects, they are more about thinking and logic than writing
| code.
|
| All too often we get stuck in the tools and not the thing we are
| trying to do. I remember a quite about photography (sorry for a
| story about vision): "I wanted to become a photographer so I took
| a class. We learned all sorts of things shutter speeds, aperture,
| film types, etc. But of all the things we learned, we never
| learned where to point the damned camera!" The computer science
| take on this quote is "Computer Science is no more about
| computers than astronomy is about telescopes." I try to keep
| these in mind when I feel myself drifting towards the tools side
| of things and come back to what's important.
|
| As also noted, there's never been a better time for accessibility
| than now. It's an opportunity to advance that area and become an
| expert.
| pgt2art wrote:
| https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=retinitis+pigmen...
|
| i hope the link can help you trials of new medications
| KhoomeiK wrote:
| Even as someone who isn't blind, I think popularizing more
| screenless tools (or even tools with just fewer visuals) could be
| useful for the dev community as a whole. My eye strain is getting
| especially bad now that we're in quarantine since I'm sitting in
| front of a monitor nearly the entire day.
|
| Hope to see some cool suggestions, tools, and software posted in
| this thread!
| growlist wrote:
| Good luck man. I'm mildly visually impaired myself and the
| average person gives it no consideration whatsoever.
| synthmeat wrote:
| There's fair amount of useful information here
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18522497
| exdsq wrote:
| One thing to consider is to write a blog on accessibility - it'll
| help expose issues to those who develop developer tools which is
| great but it'll also help _you_ get exposure for getting work.
| ubrpwnzr wrote:
| I agree with those that reference the govt policies that all orgs
| are suppose to follow. This could really turn into your career. I
| went to school with a blind network engineer and he was top of
| the class. Stay strong brother.
| istorical wrote:
| Biggest advice, start programming with your monitor covered up by
| a sheet or turned off now while you still have the option to turn
| it back on to figure out what you just did.
|
| Gradually have it turned off for longer periods without turning
| it on to see what's happening until you can do it without seeing
| it at all.
| kolanos wrote:
| On Macs, there's a screen curtain feature that can be turned on
| and off. The shortcut is FN+CTRL+OPTION+SHIFT+-. It might be
| different on older versions of OSX, used to use the right
| option key, but I've forgotten the keystrokes.
| EnderMB wrote:
| I'm very sorry to hear that.
|
| I'm not sure where you're based, but I've heard of Usher's
| Syndrome after hearing a talk from someone named Molly Watt, who
| also has Usher's Syndrome. It might be worth dropping her a line,
| as in her line of work she might be able to either give some
| advice, or point you towards someone in your situation that can
| help.
|
| https://www.mollywatt.com/
| 3boll wrote:
| Hey, there you have a few references that could be of some help!
|
| Google: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-blind-google-
| engineer-wr...
|
| Visual Studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94swlF55tVc
|
| Forzano (Amazon) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57P_dCEPtRw,
| https://blog.aboutamazon.com/working-at-amazon/blind-since-b...
|
| Wishing you the best, J
| eli555 wrote:
| I had a coworker this happened too. He was in his late 40s when
| this happened and so had to use a screen reader instead of a
| Braille display. He used edlin over putty on Windows. Since Jaws
| ran best there for him. He had to stop working on languages like
| Python where a screen reader is of little help.
| blondin wrote:
| > He had to stop working on languages like Python where a
| screen reader is of little help.
|
| i find this interesting. is it due to the space significance
| thingy?
| walterbell wrote:
| Which languages work best with a screen reader?
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