[HN Gopher] Psychological techniques to practice Stoicism
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Psychological techniques to practice Stoicism
Author : hoanhan101
Score : 49 points
Date : 2020-04-26 20:33 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (hoanhan101.github.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (hoanhan101.github.io)
| troughway wrote:
| >https://hoanhan101.github.io/about
|
| I want psychologists to write a solid book on this subject.
|
| So far majority of posts that I have read on this subject have
| been by software developers, which strikes me bizarre. You can
| leave your Zen and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance out of this.
|
| Software developers are not qualified to write about this. They
| are clueless dingbats and don't know it.
|
| How about some proper sources on the subject?
| burke wrote:
| This post is a summary of such a book? Are software developers
| unqualified to summarize books as they read them?
| downerending wrote:
| > Zen and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
|
| ?? OP doesn't mention this at all. Also, it's a great book--
| read it!
| notokay wrote:
| When I was a teenager, I bought my first motorcycle and this
| book.
|
| I was thinking that this book would contain a tech manual for
| repairing motorcycles in a special "zen-way".
|
| I was very angry when I finished reading it.
| downerending wrote:
| Ha ha. Sorry that happened to you.
|
| The intro does say: _It should in no way be associated with
| that great body of factual information relating to orthodox
| Zen Buddhist practice. It 's not very factual on
| motorcycles, either._
|
| On the other hand, I hope you enjoyed your motorcycle.
|
| Have you looked at the book again? One surprising thing for
| me is that as I've reread it over the years, it seems
| different each time.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| CBT is based on stoicism, lots has been written about it from
| psychologists. It also has a lot in common with acceptance
| based therapy.
|
| EDIT: "inspired by" is probably more accurate to say than
| "based on".
| ElFitz wrote:
| I am definitely in favor of looking for diversified opinions,
| from people with diverse backgrounds, _some_ of them
| specialized in the field. Diverse inputs are way more
| interesting than those of a single group of people with similar
| or homogenous background.
|
| That being said. First, most people aren't qualified to have
| and give their opinions on most topics. Most of us are clueless
| dingbats when it comes to most things, including figuring out
| what makes someone fit to lead a country. Or a city.
|
| Yet it was decided it was best to give us all a vote. Go figure
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
|
| Second, opinions of outsiders have shown remarquable results in
| some fields. Such as Daniel Kahneman's (a psychologist,
| coincidentally) in economics. His insights lead to behavioral
| economics.
|
| In that specific case, only someone having had their entire
| education and career in the field of economics, being
| indoctrinated by all those before them, could really believe
| people and organizations behaved even remotely like rational
| agents. That this model was enough to make sense of the
| (economic) world, at any scale (on this topic, his book,
| "Thinking Fast and Slow", yields some remarquable insights on
| 'experts')
|
| So, while I share in your desire for an increased quality and
| diversity in information, knowledge and opinions sources,
| please do 'put a little water in your wine'.
| arkitaip wrote:
| > Software developers are not qualified to write about this.
|
| This applies to almost everything posted on HN.
| el_dev_hell wrote:
| Sure. Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. You can make a
| clear line from Stoic philosophy to his concepts as a
| psychiatrist.
| [deleted]
| Svip wrote:
| The problems with Cynicism, Scepticism, Epicureanism and Stoicism
| is that they don't really adhear to the notion of 'everything in
| moderation'. The logical extremes either can lead to some
| genuinely useless approaches to life.
|
| If one should never worry about things that they cannot possibly
| control, even if it directly affects one's life, because we are
| just going to cease to exist at some point anyway, how would one
| now whether or not they could alter it, if they never began
| worrying? This very idea lead to several prominent Stoics to
| commit suicide, because might as well hasten my eventual ceasing
| of being?
|
| Perhaps if they had concerned themselves with things that on the
| surface seemed outside of their reach, they might have realised
| that some things are approachable, even if the solution is not
| obvious.
|
| The idea that one should avoid worry about things outside one's
| control is not a bad suggestion in general, it just should not be
| taken as an extreme. I mean, there is probably a reason why
| philosophers went back to Aristotle and Plato _after_ those other
| four Schools saw prominence.
|
| Jewish, Christian and Islamic philosophers weren't trying to make
| their religions compatible with Zeno's or Epicurus' teachings,
| but rather Plato's and later Aristotle's.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| I think it's true that none of these philosophies will be a
| "one size fits all" type thing. Personally, worry and anxiety
| just makes me useless. When I'm drawn into worries and fears
| about external factors, it saps me entirely of the energy to
| deal with just about anything, which is why I find stoicism
| helpful.
|
| I'm sure there are other people who find the stress and anxiety
| about external factors as motivating and bearable, and would
| not find stoicism useful.
|
| ETA: I don't find everything in stoicism to be useful. I kind
| of use my own personal "buffet" style approach, where I pick
| and choose what pieces from different philosophies work best
| for me.
| Svip wrote:
| I should have mentioned, that later after they got tired with
| reading Plato and Aristotle again, Cynicism, Scepticism,
| Epicureanism and Stoicism all saw new light, but usually they
| were more combined into general useful advice on living a
| good life.
|
| Cynicism's rejection of social norms, when it re-appeared in
| the late 18th century, morphed into a disapproval of society
| in general, and the modern usage of 'cynic' was meant to be
| someone who rejected social structures, and thus someone's
| who is negative, rather than someone trying to live a
| virtuous life without being 'chained' by society.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I think you've misunderstood what "worry" means to a Stoic. If
| you don't understand something or you cannot Co trol it
| completely or you don't know if you can control it, then
| concentrating on that isn't worry. It's only worry if and when
| it is totally beyond your control.
|
| Also, I'd be interested to hear how many stoics committed
| suicide because they ran out of things to control!? I can think
| of only one person, and his suicide was forced and the only way
| to save his family I belive?
| a-saleh wrote:
| Just beware you actually practice stoicism, acceptance and the
| good stuff and not just dissociation ;-)
| bubba1236 wrote:
| This is a funny phenomenon with devs going on about "stoicism". I
| suspect it's from their arrogance to believe in God.
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| > Willpower is like muscle power: the more exercise, the stronger
| they are; the more will power we have, the more self-control and
| courage we have.
|
| IIRC: studies have not validated this
| dorkwood wrote:
| In my experience willpower is less like a muscle and more like
| a habit. Right now I'm in the habit of working on side projects
| every day, so it's easy. Since habits come naturally, what once
| required willpower now requires no willpower at all. Surely
| there are studies that confirm habitual tasks are easier to
| perform than non-habitual ones?
| itisit wrote:
| Yes, a dated analogy:
|
| https://hbr.org/2016/11/have-we-been-thinking-about-willpowe...
| phkahler wrote:
| Ego depletion would kinda be the opposite anyway.
| exit wrote:
| _> A person's virtue depends on their excellence as a human
| being, how well one performs the function for which humans were
| designed._
|
| humans weren't designed, they were selected for through a
| happenstantial process. random mutation is critical to this
| process, and so any one of us can be deeply at odds with whatever
| the majority are geared towards.
| ourmandave wrote:
| That's why you have to design your environment instead.
|
| For example, this family-size package of Double Stuf Oreos was
| designed to be eaten, so I will stoically consume every last
| one of them.
| kashyapc wrote:
| For those who wish to truly deep-dive, I strongly suggest to skip
| the "meta books" on Stoicism, and go straight to the original
| works. There's the Big Three--Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus
| Aurelius. Be prepared to invest _at least_ ten months (the
| longer, the better) of _active_ study to get a decent grounding.
|
| From my experience of reading multiple translations of the Big
| Three, for someone new to Stoicism, I'd suggest _not_ to start
| with the popular recommendation of Marcus Aurelius.
|
| Start with Seneca's Letters, then Epictetus (an ex-slave, and a
| profound influence on Marcus Aurelius), and only _then_ Marcus
| Aurelius, the Roman Emperor. (To quote the foremost Stoic
| scholar, A.A. Long: "[...] That an ex-slave actually shaped a
| Roman Emperor's deepest thoughts is one of the most remarkable
| testimonies to the power and applicability of Epictetus' words.")
|
| The quality of the English translation matters a _lot_. Here are
| my recommendations:
|
| * Seneca: _Letters on Ethics_ -- translation by Margaret Graver
| and A. A. Long. This is the most recent translation, reads
| extremely well, outstanding notes, and wonderfully typeset. It 's
| translated by the current foremost experts; can't get better than
| this. I've been reading this for four months. (If this is a tad
| pricey for you, I've also heard good things about _Selected
| Letters_ ; translated by Elaine Fantham.)
|
| * Epictetus: _Encheiridion, and Selections from Discourses_ , by
| A.A. Long. This is a short book; the value addition here is the
| great introduction, and the outstanding glossary. (NB: there is
| no escaping full Discourses of Epictetus--refer below.)
|
| * Epictetus: _Discourses, Fragments and Handbook_ -- translation
| by Robin Hard, intro by Christopher Gill; Oxford University
| Press. Spend a good four months immersing yourself in it.
| Epictetus is full of heavy irony, dark humor, histrionic wit, and
| sarcasm. Absolutely my favourite.
|
| * Epictetus: _A Stoic and Socratic Guide_ , by A.A. Long.
| _Important Note_ : To get maximum value out of this, you must
| have already read _at least_ one translation of Epictetus ' full
| Discourses! This book orients the reader to Epictetus with an
| extremely valuable context: how not to misinterpret his
| unqualified faith in "divine providence" (which can grate on our
| "modern ears"); the influence of Plato and the "Socratic
| Elenchus" (colloquially known as "Socratic Method"); deep
| insights into Epictetus' own inimitable style; and a rich
| bibliography.
|
| * Marcus Aurelius: _Meditations_. There are at least six
| translations. I 'd suggest to start with the gentler translation
| by Gregory Hays. If you like it, then you can research other
| translations. (A.S.L Farquharson spent a lifetime on his
| translation of the _Meditations_ ; it also has commentary. I
| sometimes consult this edition.)
|
| * _The Inner Citadel: The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius_ , by
| Pierre Hadot. This needs to be read only after you've read _at
| least_ one translation of Marcus Aurelius This is a fantastic
| dissection of Aurelius ' work--Hadot studied him for 25 years.
| Besides fresh translations of the Meditations, it also contains
| unparalleled summary of Epictetus, and many quotes of Seneca.
| - - -
|
| I'll end with one of my favourite Epictetus quotes:
|
| _" For sheep, too, don't vomit up their fodder to show the
| shepherds how much they've eaten, but digest their food inside
| them, and produce wool and milk on the outside. And so you
| likewise shouldn't show off your philosophical principles to
| ordinary people, but rather show them in the actions that result
| from those principles when they've been properly digested."_
| [deleted]
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