[HN Gopher] Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help
___________________________________________________________________
Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help
Author : throwaway839246
Score : 254 points
Date : 2020-05-04 19:35 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (gist.github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (gist.github.com)
| thorwasdfasdf wrote:
| You can't let work be your whole life or it's going to eat you
| up. Everyone should read how things are done at Joel's company.
| Joel spolsky knows how to create a responsible work environment
| that is sustainable that won't burn out engineers. Here is his
| key advice: 20 hours of your work week you spend on your SE
| studies + medition/rest/yoga + administrative stuff + meetings.
| the other 20 hours is on coding. If you're doing more than 40
| hours per week, your not sustainable, and you need to do
| something to change that. Working at a start up is no excuse, not
| enough runway is no excuse. The only time you should be working
| more than 40 hours a week is if you own the freakin company or at
| least 30% of it.
| zackbloom wrote:
| I think the fundamental flaw is trying to be 'successful'.
| Playing that game invariably requires you to pretend to be what
| you think the market wants.
|
| I would suggest you think about building something you want that
| you find fun. If you're a scuba diver, build a dive computer. If
| you're a woodworker make a tool for making the best use of a
| board. The most important thing is you absolutely don't plan on
| making it a world-changing multi-billion dollar anything. Make
| it, even sell it if you want, and enjoy the ride.
| polskibus wrote:
| For most people it's not about trying to be successful. It's
| about not having to be stressed out daily about basic needs
| like home, health, transport, kids upbringing etc.
| Unfortunately it all costs a lot of money these days, which
| makes you take a compromise for the sake of security for you
| and your closest relatives.
| ImaCake wrote:
| This is why normal, sane, people will put up with the
| Dilbert-esque world of business. They only have a month's
| savings and they have a mortgage and two kids to feed.
| throwaway123874 wrote:
| I think the only answer here is to stop clinging onto this 'life'
| you have.
|
| The optimism you're seeking comes from looking forward to today,
| right now. Right here, right now. Everything is the present
| moment. If you do not find yourself in the present moment - this
| could be due to the weight of money, weight of the future, weight
| of obligations - then abandon it all.
|
| You don't need anything. Just reclaim the time that is yours. If
| you have enough runway for a year, that's all you need. Think
| about it. Would you rather have 20 more years of this 'hint of
| dissatisfaction', or just one year of bliss? If not bliss, at
| least closer to what once was, where we all come from. Just
| people trying to have fun and not think of larger consequences. I
| would get off of anti-depressants, too.
| throwaway839246 wrote:
| I did throw everything away. I walked away from ~$10M, so this
| isn't the problem.
|
| To live in the present moment one has to unsee the cant. That's
| the difficult part. How to keep the mind from focusing on all
| the bullshit that it can't unsee. The burnout, the
| disillusionment, the politics, the faded friendships. That's
| what's hard.
| throwaway123874 wrote:
| I get what you mean. It's hard to let go of these realities
| we see. I see it all the time in my corp. And I am convinced,
| too, that it's hard to do fun/interesting things in
| technology. It honestly baffles me at times, how we just
| throw away our time so recklessly, so soullessly. We spend
| years and years in some place, and eventually all that we
| used to have dissolves. No more friendships, community,
| family, everything is just ulterior motives.
|
| Instead of seeing what did happen, let's look at what may
| happen again. Maybe you find it hard to start coding again
| for you enjoy the collaboration part the most, and yet you
| imagine most people willing to rip your spine out for some
| money instead of making something cool for this time we have
| left.
|
| Maybe it's fear of embracing the unknown. The reason people
| are in the golden handcuffs is because they always want to
| hold onto tomorrow - a tomorrow that may never come. And it's
| easy to forget we all disappear from this place someday.
| Money helps forget that. But the unknown is where the
| excitement is.
|
| Either way, I think instead of ignoring those 'cants' one may
| want to instead avoid them at all costs. I can see why they
| seem like a reality, and because it often does become a
| reality. People are so vile, greedy, self-centered - even
| ourselves at times. The best way out is to forget all the
| incidentals of making a company. Maybe you can try doing
| bootstrapped stuff, so VCs don't exploit you.
|
| I believe the spark can only alight through forgetting all of
| the larger goals. If you push yourself away from the premise
| of making money - maybe doing open source software - then you
| can avoid these people that prop up this disillusionment.
|
| The cynicism you'll have to struggle with is finding the
| people worth the time. I have the same trouble. It's
| extremely hard. Only through a willing heart can you find
| those people that don't just want your money. We're going to
| be alone a lot, so it's about finding what makes you fine
| with the silence.
|
| And most importantly, a long, long break from everything will
| help you find your flow again. Most of your day is sunk into
| another job, and it's hard to make sense of anything when
| most of your time is spent elsewhere.
|
| These are just my conclusions. And to not appear like I'm all
| talk, I am in the same situation. I haven't even opened my
| work laptop today. I just don't care anymore. I'm looking
| forward to being fired.
| danans wrote:
| > we just throw away our time so recklessly, so soullessly.
|
| > No more friendships, community, family, everything is
| just ulterior motives.
|
| > The reason people are in the golden handcuffs is because
| they always want to hold onto tomorrow - a tomorrow that
| may never come.
|
| > People are so vile, greedy, self-centered - even
| ourselves at times.
|
| > These are just my conclusions.
|
| Just an observation, but these conclusions of yours seem to
| to revolve a lot around judging and directing resentment at
| other peoples' priorities and the authenticity of
| motivations. In particular, family community and
| friendships are the thing that helps people get through
| their otherwise mundane workdays. They're not lies for a
| whole lot of people.
|
| Perhaps that's a sign that you might benefit from more
| focus on yourself and your own process and purpose instead
| of focusing on others, whose purpose and process you can't
| control.
| agentultra wrote:
| Don't go off of anti-depressants and don't stop going to
| therapy.
|
| My burnout got so bad that I was starting to forget words and
| had a difficult time remembering short term tasks. I had
| trouble sleeping. My thoughts were cloudy and it became
| difficult to stay productive.
|
| Therapy has given me the tools and framework to develop
| habits and patterns of thinking to cope with my burnout.
|
| If I had been prescribed anti-depressants I wouldn't hesitate
| to be on them.
|
| Unchecked, who knows how bad it could have gotten.
| partyboat1586 wrote:
| I've been there. Burned out so hard I thought I had brain
| damage. You can't unsee what you have seen, you have to
| integrate and accept it. Depressing as it is to know how sick
| the industry is and how many sociopaths there are lurking you
| have to let go. You have to accept it, trying to unsee it
| will just make it worse.
|
| It takes time because you will start to see it in other
| places too. I used to get triggered by TV programs or reading
| the news but these days Its just one of many thoughts. I've
| come to accept all the implications and let them unfold over
| time as my mind kept returning, ruminating. Eventually you
| will come to terms with it.
|
| It's important to allow time to process as well as not
| spending all your time ruminating. Balance is the key. Keep
| living the best life you can but go easy on yourself.
|
| The upside of this whole thing is you are wiser now. As time
| goes on and you process everything more you will become wiser
| still. It's tempting to become cynical and it's ok if you are
| for a while but the world is still full of wonder and hope
| and beauty, seek it out. There are still good people even in
| the darkest of times.
| gorbachev wrote:
| A thought occurred to me while reading this and the responses.
|
| I had pretty severe burnout - who knew, working two jobs and
| studying full time isn't very smart - when I was very young in my
| career. In hindsight that was one of the best things that ever
| happened to me. It was even better that it happened early in my
| career when I didn't have dependents to care about or much of a
| career really.
|
| Because of that I learned, unfortunately the hard way, that work
| is work and that's not your life. It took me a while, but I
| forced myself to stop worrying, thinking and in any way engage
| with work once the workday is done. I haven't taken work home in
| years.
|
| Burnouts suck, the really bad ones are dangerous, too, because
| you lose your sense of reality, but, honestly, if people went
| through it once when it's relatively safe and you can rely on
| help to get through it, like I did, the rest of your life
| could/would be much better.
| FpUser wrote:
| I'd say keep doing what you do and seem to like now. The rest may
| come back. One day you might think of an interesting idea would
| want to try it and then before you know you'll be already doing
| things to make that idea come to life. Just do not try to force
| things upon yourself.
| zelphirkalt wrote:
| As there is not really an educational background given, I'd
| suggest learning a new programming language or starting with SICP
| or other cool programming books, which have the potential to give
| the reader and eager learner many "Aha!" moments and insights.
| That should make programming interesting again. There is always
| more to learn about code and programming.
|
| Or alternatively, do something else, until you get an interesting
| idea or need a tool for what you actually want to deal with and
| code it up. This can reinforce both, programming and the actual
| activity, that one wanted to do.
| ummonk wrote:
| Leaving aside the organizational bullshit issues, a big
| frustration with IC work is that to be productive at it I have to
| essentially shut-off my brain during the rest of my life, as I
| simply don't have the mental energy to do deeply technical things
| outside of work while being productive at coding for work.
| aazaa wrote:
| > Has anyone been through this who managed to recover their
| optimism and creative spirit? Please help me. What can I do?
|
| Have you tried helping someone? If not, find someone who needs
| help, then help them.
|
| This seems to be a good way to hack past the kind of burnout
| you're talking about.
|
| It's best if the thing a person needs help with is something you
| like to do (or once liked to do). It won't even seem like you're
| helping them, but you will be. Even better if the person needs
| help with something you've wanted to learn how to do but never
| could manage fit in.
|
| A magical thing happens when you help someone. You forget about
| yourself. Maybe for only a little while, but that can really help
| reset what's not working in life.
|
| There are so many ways to help people. You can help them online,
| pseudonymously if you prefer. You can help them publicly. You can
| volunteer to do something for an organization that has things
| that need to be done.
|
| Kids need a lot of help. The elderly need a lot of help. Recently
| unemployed people need a lot of help. There are organization
| serving all of them, and they can all use your help.
|
| It sounds like you have skills and experience that could help a
| lot of people. You may have already helped someone just by
| sharing your own experience that happens to overlap with someone
| else's.
| loup-vaillant wrote:
| You may be disillusioned with technology, but to me, it seems
| that what disillusioned you was capitalism.
|
| The problems you described are not technological, they're
| political. The Vulture Capitalists can be dishonest because they
| don't pay for their lies. The soulless corporations waste their
| time with political squabbles and poorly managed project because
| they capture enough profit to afford such inefficiencies. Burnout
| is not a problem because we still have a lot of younger and
| hopeful people to replace the burnt out ashes.
|
| I personally see only two solutions: get out of the system, or
| change the system. Perhaps both. Note that the second one
| requires collective action.
| HugoDaniel wrote:
| The author needs to try BSD
| bartol wrote:
| Care to explain?
| JoeyPardella wrote:
| This is exactly how I feel, almost every word of it.
| __throwawy1234 wrote:
| I think you haven't even hit bottom yet. Reality is much, much
| worse. There are notable exceptions, but the overwhelming odds
| are that every single relationship in your life-- your wife,
| family, friends, etc-- are just as dishonest and transactional.
| Think about it. If you really screw up badly, your wife will
| leave you, your friends won't return your calls and will refer to
| you only in hushed tones clucking about "what a shame it is".
| Their support of you isn't some inherent validation of You as a
| being, it's in support of you as you exist in society and in the
| larger world.
|
| We have spent years, even decades, cultivating and grooming our
| own prisons. In the end, everything we cherish and value will be
| destroyed. It is 100% certain and there is no way around it. It's
| such a bleak thing to consider, yet at the same time it is an
| absolute truth.
|
| After wrestling with these facts for years, I have come to
| understand the Zen koan about cherishing every moment drinking
| tea from a glass because to the master, the glass is already
| broken. Control of the larger world and the people within it are
| an illusion. In many respects, you are already dead and
| forgotten. The only thing you can do is admire the stunning
| beauty and sheer improbability of it all, and to be as kind as
| possible to those who deserve it, and to many who do not deserve
| it.
| brundolf wrote:
| I don't know what happened to you to make you so cynical, and I
| honestly pity you for it, but I think this is the exact
| opposite of what someone in the OP's position needs to hear.
| It's well and good that you've found a zen way of looking at
| things despite how bleak you seem to find the whole world, but
| not everyone can manage such a radical mindset shift and don't
| need to have their faith in humanity eagerly torched.
| __throwawy1234 wrote:
| Honestly, it's not cynicism, although it used to be until I
| really thought things through. It's just the truth. I have a
| great life, I have truly been blessed, and I am very
| thankful. But to me the glass is already broken. Things may
| come, things may go, the only thing I control is me, and I am
| at peace.
| brundolf wrote:
| Again, that's a very healthy mindset to take no matter what
| the human condition is, but you don't have to take a
| scorched-earth perspective on life to adopt such a frame of
| mind. And for most people, who haven't developed such a
| frame of mind, that scorched-earth perspective can be
| really destructive.
|
| Additionally, the part about relationships goes further
| than simple nihilism. Plenty of relationships are real and
| go further than transactions. Not all of them, but many of
| them. Again, I don't know who hurt you to make you take
| such a perspective, but your perspective is deeply skewed.
| __throwawy1234 wrote:
| You seem eager to tell people how to think and to judge
| the properness of others' outlooks on life. Your concern
| is noted, have a great day.
| deanCommie wrote:
| > Then I worked for a tech giant, and then for a high-growth
| unicorn. It shocked me how dilbertesque they both were. Full of
| politicians, and burnt out engineers in golden handcuffs who
| can't wait to get out, and meaningless business speak, and
| checked out employees who pretend they're "excited" about
| everything all the time. The young, wide-eyed engineers seem
| hopelessly naive to me now.
|
| I don't know this person. I wasn't there. I don't know which tech
| giant.
|
| Certainly there are plenty of stories of large multinationals
| with dilbertesque politics, and checked out zombies.
|
| But something tells me that this author's experience was only
| because he was comparing it to the glory days of his own startup
| where everyone was intensely invested and engaged.
|
| The truth is there is a middle ground: employment. You are
| engaged insofar as you receive a paycheck, and you want to do
| good work to continue getting that paycheck. But you also care
| enough to do a good job because you're human, and because you
| want a raise or a promotion, or even a cookie from your peers
| that says "go you". You probably also like the specific job more
| than you would other ones.
|
| The loudest stories rise to the top of HN, but I think most
| professional industry is just this. That doesn't mean it's
| unhealthy. Politics has purpose.
|
| And when you yourself are cynical, everyone else's excitement
| rings hollow and you think they are pretending and are actually
| checked out..
| hindsightbias wrote:
| In the old days, people went to church, played sports or bought
| a new pair of $300 sneakers to find fulfillment. Maybe
| bootcamps need a liberal arts or sports track.
|
| How long will this hangover from change-the-world-itis last?
| razzimatazz wrote:
| I think the middle ground can be a great place to work in tech,
| all it takes is one other person to work with that is willing
| to care about the things you achieve together.
|
| Typical examples include our dysfunctional regression testing
| days. Tedium and pain when given the task alone and the person
| in change is just waiting to hear it's done. Bearable and in
| fact a shared challenge when you work through it together, with
| some small elements of process thrown in, and ended with credit
| given for getting the painful but necessary task done.
|
| Even if a different person sitting near to you is checked out.
| I actually like to take my job satisfaction and rub it in their
| face a little.
| superfrank wrote:
| I feel like a lot of times when people complain about a company
| politics, it's only because they are on the losing side of the
| issue. When it works in their favor it's just the company
| culture.
|
| Mentally, I've started replacing complaints about politics with
| "nobody is listening to me".
| opportune wrote:
| Also, depending on the place, a lot of the dilbertesque
| politics and process are just having a safe/more conservative
| culture. Getting buy in, satisfying stakeholders, making sure
| the safe happy protocol is followed - it's so you don't end up
| in a situation where a junior engineer is tasked with fixing
| production while you bleed $5k/minute and someone gets fired
| for it. Instead you blame the process and fix it methodically.
| That's arguably a lot better than cowbody devops.
|
| At a startup, especially as a founder, you're encouraged to be
| a hero and give it your all partly because your incentives are
| really well aligned - if you succeed you could make $100mm or
| (a lot) more. As an employee, maybe you get fired or promoted,
| maybe your stock gains like 1% in value because of something
| you do or prevented... Some people are more checked out than
| others, but I agree, you're just an employee and it would be
| foolish to really put your heart and soul into your day job for
| most people
| Aeolun wrote:
| That is true to some extend for the employees' motives, but
| the reality is that most just clearly don't care beyond their
| paycheck or resume building.
|
| Even the leadership doesn't want to do what is best for the
| company/product, but what is best for themselves. It'll be
| dressed up nicely of course, but that doesn't change the
| reality of the thing.
|
| > Instead you blame the process and fix it methodically.
|
| You blame the process, but are unwilling to really change it,
| so you just keep repeating the same kind of fixes ad nauseam.
| taurath wrote:
| > Getting buy in, satisfying stakeholders, making sure the
| safe happy protocol is followed - it's so you don't end up in
| a situation where a junior engineer is tasked with fixing
| production
|
| Its also so you can get the thing you really want by
| sacrificing the thing you don't care about. You get to
| maintain longer term relationships which lowers people's
| defensiveness and allows you to move more liquid through the
| pipes because there aren't people limiting your flow out of
| defensiveness or because they don't believe in what you're
| doing.
| baq wrote:
| go watch some tv.
|
| get properly angry at the amount of bullshit and disinformation
| that thing spews out regardless of stated or implied affiliation.
|
| compare with herds of people who don't trust science but can't
| stop themselves from telling everyone about their favorite kind
| of youtube shaman.
|
| realize some people have it worse. nothing to be happy about
| except that it could be worse for you and it isn't.
|
| figure out a way to fix democracy and reconcile free speech with
| the internet. or help humanity go to mars or fix climate
| catastrophe.
|
| wield data and algorithms against forces of evil. with luck you
| won't think of yourself as a cog.
|
| or take up gardening. freshly picked strawberries are my
| favorite.
| majormajor wrote:
| You aren't disillusioned with technology, you're disillusioned
| with people.
|
| That's not an excuse for the way people behave, but it's a useful
| thing to keep in mind when trying to think about how to _change_
| the problems. They 're behavioral, social, and organizational
| problems, not technical ones.
|
| Meaningful change can only come through those avenues, then, like
| politics. Of course, that's an ugly field on its own... if you
| prefer to keep a tech lens on it, you can try to design products
| to push society in certain directions, but you could also work
| towards that without doing any sort of technological work at all.
|
| These sorts of things are the strongest sorts of anti-libertarian
| arguments I know of. The "market" necessarily devolves to the
| people who are willing to push the boundaries the most, because
| it's near-impossible to know all the bad actors exhaustively in
| advance, and because so many people are willing to compromise -
| at least somewhat - in their pursuit of personal security.
| remir wrote:
| I'm bored of tech, apps, gadgets and all, despite the _coollness_
| factor. I was fascinated by technology when I was growing up, but
| I feel like the world 's pressing needs and problems are not
| addressed because there's no "good money" to be made by solving
| them, which is absurd.
|
| I wish beauty, wisdom and optimization would be better valued so
| we could find pleasure in designing things and cities with
| beautiful architectures with minimal negative impact on the
| environment. I wish we could redefine our position in the world
| as member of an ecosystem we should care for, instead of being
| merely consumers and "eyeballs" for advertisers.
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| You might enjoy the _Software Disenchantment_ post we discussed
| 4 months ago, which was about the state of the software
| industry (rather than about personal burnout).
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21929709
| graycat wrote:
| A view of _technology_ :
|
| Watch an old movie and notice the many improvements in economic
| productivity, standard of living, quality of life.
|
| E.g.: To get salt, had to travel to the local village. For this
| had to saddle up or harness a horse or two. Now can get the salt
| delivered or eat in a restaurant or drive to the village on a
| smooth road in a car with HVAC.
|
| Car tires used to wear out in about 15,000 miles and were so
| vulnerable to rupture that had to carry a spare and know where
| the bumper jack was and how to change a tire. Now can get 75,000
| miles from a set of tires.
|
| Ever mess with a carburetor and ignition breaker points? Now have
| electronic engine controls with fuel injection. So, less
| maintenance, better fuel economy, fewer oil changes, longer
| engine life.
|
| It goes on this way for cars and transportation more generally.
|
| See how houses were built: Saws, hammers, and plaster. Now have
| electric saws, studs, beams, and panels already cut to size, and
| wall board. E.g., I had some wood to cut, with a saw got halfway
| through the first cut, then rushed out and got a circle saw, zip,
| zoom, cut all the pieces and they look really nice. Needed to
| drill some 1" holes; set aside the brace and bit in an old tool
| chest, got an electric drill, and done, really well, really nice
| clean holes, zip, zoom. Got the 1" spade bit on-line!
|
| It goes on this way with hand tools, kitchen tools, yard tools,
| auto maintenance tools, etc. MUCH easier. E.g., kitchen tools can
| be awash in stainless steel; used to have to use expensive silver
| or rusty iron.
|
| I do a single serving pizza I make myself: The ingredients for
| one pizza cost right at 40 cents with the flour at 9 cents.
| Fantastic agricultural productivity, along with the associated
| supply chain.
|
| Tech has contributed to all of those.
|
| I go to Google several times a day and to Amazon at least once a
| week. So, lots of use of tech.
|
| Shopping, buying on-line, the shipping, tracking, paying -- lots
| of tech there, too.
|
| Software? It can be a lot of fun! So, write some code, try it,
| get back errors, fix the errors, for that maybe put in some
| statements to trace the execution, and finally get it to run as
| desired. From then on, it won't _wear out_! And with that
| software often can just click on an icon or type in a short
| command and get the intended work done automatically! Boom!
|
| A huge, biggie: Get rid of the typewriters! Beyond that, since
| I'm in math, get TeX for typing the math!!! Finally with TeX, the
| typing is no longer more work than the math, even math research!
| It took a LOT of transistors, processors, and computing just to
| get rid of the typewriters and get us to TeX.
|
| Then get some astounding wonders, some of the most astounding
| astronomy yet: https://www.universetoday.com/145935/supermassive-
| black-hole...
|
| https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2020-080&fbcl...
|
| A LOT of tech there!
|
| Now that we know when the next big flash will come, we can have
| the telescopes looking and have the gravitational wave detectors
| expecting -- a prediction is for a big signal!
|
| For work in an organization, it's long been with a lot of _goal
| subordination_ , suck up to those above, piss on those below, and
| try to sabotage the people down the hall. But now with tech there
| are some advantages:
|
| Clean, indoor work, no heavy lifting.
|
| Safer work, e.g., won't get finger cut off in a saw or have a
| load of bricks fall on your head. Won't inhale or ingest stuff
| that will injure or kill you.
|
| Won't get thrown off a horse or kicked by a mule.
|
| Maybe will get a better tech job.
|
| Maybe will find a good startup opportunity and get rich, as rich
| as Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Morgan, Ford, etc., heavily
| just from typing with fingers.
|
| For my laptop, my incremental backups are at 11 GB -- time to do
| another full backup! I just got two new SATA hard disk drives,
| 7200 RPM, 6 Gbps data transfer rate, 4 TB per drive (no use of
| _shingled_ recording)!! IIRC, $65 each! Amazing!!!
|
| Just got in the USPS mail, ~$10, the Rostropovich performance of
| the Dvorak cello concerto, B minor, with the Berlin Philharmonic
| and von Karajan: I lost my first copy in my recent move so wanted
| a replacement. Fast, easy search, ordering on-line! It's playing
| now: I've paid a LOT of attention to _classical_ music and this
| performance is a good candidate for the most careful, passionate,
| and lyrical music and performance, art, "communication,
| interpretation of human experience, emotion", ever. Could never
| dream of such.
|
| Net, a lot of good in tech!
| herman_toothrot wrote:
| What brand tires do you buy?
| graycat wrote:
| For regular tires, it's been so long I don't remember in
| detail.
|
| When I was growing up, 13,000 miles on a set of tires was
| about all we got.
|
| The deal is better rubber compounds for the tread, mesh under
| the tread to keep the tread from flexing on the road surface,
| and better cord, maybe Kevlar, for the rest. Now a lot of
| tires are super tough things.
|
| For a Chevy S-10 Blazer, I bought some Cooper snow tires a
| few years ago, but I don't drive very much now so have put
| only maybe only 10,000 miles on them -- they show none or
| nearly no signs of wear yet.
|
| I drove a Buick Turbo T-Type, heavy car but fast, for about
| 220,000 miles with just the original tires and one set of new
| tires. The new tires didn't wear as long as I hoped -- they
| sold me _luxury, smooth riding_ tires, and I don 't give even
| as much as a weak little hollow hoot about _smooth, luxury_.
|
| I put 200,000+ miles on a Chevy Nova with just the original
| plus 1 or 2 sets of new tires; similarly for a hot rod
| Camaro. Then I was getting tires from Michelin.
|
| Ballpark, the change I see is 13,000 miles growing up and
| 75,000 miles now.
|
| But there are some exceptions: There are some luxury, smooth
| riding tires that, AFAIK, don't last as long. Maybe front
| wheel drive can chew up tires. Full time four wheel drive
| maybe shouldn't but I suspect does chew up tires. Soft
| suspensions tend to scrub the tires on the road.
| 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 wrote:
| > _Then I worked for a tech giant, and then for a high-growth
| unicorn. It shocked me how dilbertesque they both were. Full of
| politicians, and burnt out engineers in golden handcuffs who can
| 't wait to get out_
|
| Sorry this surprises you, OP. It's called "work" (I'm not
| intending to be condescending). People pay you to do something
| and you do it, having entered unto that mutual agreement. Nobody
| promised you it would be efficient or fair (yet it's much more
| efficient and much more fair than it was say 50 years ago).
|
| It's not just you. It's many people. Being paid a lot to do very
| little seems to have some bizarre side-effects to people's
| psyche.
|
| For anyone reading this, take charge of your personal life. Find
| people and invest your time, and causes and invest your money.
|
| So many people lament the inequality in the world but do nothing
| of their own will to change it. Are we all so paralyzed we can't
| make personal decisions and instead cry out why our government
| isn't doing more?
| aetherspawn wrote:
| This kind-of explains how I felt when I was working in software.
| After we launched a successful product, I lost all motivation to
| continue open source for some time and eventually I lost my
| interest in the tech we were working with as well. Still to this
| day, my commits went down from >1k/yr to less than 10.
|
| What helped me was changing to a different industry. I went into
| electric vehicles and now I write drive by wire firmware. It was
| really interesting to find that certain industries NEED help from
| those that know how to write and scale software, because they are
| traditionally led my the dinosauric.
| dilandau wrote:
| Interesting venue to post this on. But as it's the afternoon in
| the US workday, it's a fair chance that many responses will come
| from US tech workers who are slacking off or taking a break from
| their job and were enticed in by the headline.
|
| Given the culture of HN comments I reckon you'll get grooming
| tips and pointless anecdotes, condescending advice, or unhelpful
| peptalks.
|
| What I'll say is that you probably are disillusioned with it
| because you saw how illusory most of it is. The best stuff is
| always produced by very small, tightly-knit teams, in an
| environment where creativity is allowed to flourish. In a
| monoculture like tech giant / unicorn startup, you're living in
| the Silicon Valley series bro and that's all there is to it.
|
| There are lots of engineers out here on the internet doing fun
| things. We just don't spam github shit or write fancy landing
| pages to shamelessly promote ourselves. Join us.
| BrandonM wrote:
| Your third and even fourth paragraphs are pretty interesting.
| It's a shame that they come after the speculation and jabs in
| the first two paragraphs.
| eliteinternaut wrote:
| I am in the same boat. 6 months ago, I quit my job because the
| management and engineering team I worked with were extremely
| difficult to work with. I had poured my heart out in the company.
| Grew the team from 1 to 6 developers. Worked extreme long hours
| because I enjoyed building the product. I knew I didn't want to
| code after that. I enrolled in an online business management
| program. Joined a two people company as an intern two weeks ago.
| I am finally getting excited about building something new from
| scratch and I am learning quite a lot at the same time. Take a
| break and spend time doing the things you love. You are extremely
| smart and aware about the problems you face. Learn that thing you
| always wanted to learn. You might get disinterested and may want
| to quit it but it's very important to keep at it. If you join a
| team, I would advise you to join a small team with less or no
| politics.
| draw_down wrote:
| I can't imagine another outcome from working in this industry
| other than disillusionment. That is the only reaction that makes
| sense to me.
|
| After a while, you realize "well, this is about the best I can
| do", and you get actual fulfillment from other parts of your
| life- I think this is ultimately healthy. I don't want to be
| overidentified with my employer, I just want to do my job and
| focus on the rest of my life.
|
| The industry is good for a paycheck and that's about it- all the
| "changing the world" stuff, pheeeeuuw.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Many of us engineers fancy ourselves as artisans who get to avoid
| working that 2nd job to pay for our art.
|
| But the reality is that we pay the bill inside the companies we
| work for. Our art has to meet certain deadlines and
| specifications decided by others. We have to spend time in
| meetings about nothingness. Whether we get funded still comes
| down to dollars for value, with the exception that instead of the
| grants artists get, we call it salary.
|
| Very little in life can be extracted from the fact that we must
| provide value to others and often on their terms, even if that
| value is doing little but filling up their meeting so they look
| very in charge.
|
| I solve this by having a good book on my phone for when I am in
| meetings and ensuring that there are always many things I am
| doing beyond my job. There is plenty of opportunity for the
| purely fun "let's build something cool" type of engineering
| outside of work that can still contribute to your career.
| alexashka wrote:
| Just need to re-calibrate your expectations to match reality, the
| rest will follow.
|
| This is the natural phase of going from being a child to a
| teenager, to a young adult and now a full blown adult :)
|
| Being an adult, there is the bitter pill to swallow - most people
| are out for themselves and they're quite dumb in ways they go
| about it. A lot of them are incompetent, dangerous monkeys that
| parrot doublespeak.
|
| You yourself are one of them monkeys that can't square away
| doublespeak with reality (psst they were never meant to match),
| except you were born with an aversion for violence by pure chance
| by the sounds of it.
|
| Your traumatic clash of reality vs childhood dreamworld born of
| idiot parents who didn't prepare you for the real world and mass
| propaganda via culture of doublespeak, has left you dazed and
| confused.
|
| Jordan Peterson seems to be helpful for some people but make no
| mistake, your childhood world is finished and there is no going
| back.
| formercoder wrote:
| You need to think about the motivations behind all of the parties
| you're interacting with. Why did those investors give you money?
| Because they, and possible their LPs (their bosses effectively)
| wanted to make more money with their money. That's it. That's
| their whole job. Had you known this, you wouldn't have been
| surprised when they acted how they did in order to return any
| capital possible once it was clear they were not making a return.
| microtherion wrote:
| I was somewhat concerned when OP mentioned having lost
| "friends" over their failed company. This can either mean they
| got their friends to invest money (which is risky precisely
| because those usually would not be professional investors), or
| they considered their professional investors "friends".
| voodootrucker wrote:
| Sounds more like disillusionment with our quasi-free-market. In
| reality it's nothing but strongmen and subterfuge, and I fear
| America will ultimately lose whatever competitive edge it had
| left due to this.
| gfodor wrote:
| Most of your problems sound like they stemmed from VC. Similar
| story. It's a good, and hard, lesson. Two things one should not
| touch when it comes to building healthy companies in 2020: crypto
| and equity sales to VC. They're going to become fossils soon
| anyhow [1].
|
| Read Rework by Basecamp. Read The Beginning of Infinity by
| Deutch. Read the Art of Doing Science and Engineering by Hamming.
| Watch some Bret Victor talks. Ignore the negative memes about
| tech. They're all wrong, the rules get re-written every 10 years,
| and that is going to decrease in duration, not increase. You
| might be the person needed to re-write them.
|
| Release your code. Teach. Share.
|
| If you can, bootstrap. Give more than you take. Don't hire or
| work with assholes. Grow slowly. Don't over-lever yourself. Make
| something people not just want, but love. Know thyself. Don't
| outsource your thinking, build the thing only you can build.
|
| If you are not working on the most important problem in your
| field, why not?
|
| Most importantly, know that the future is bright and that our
| best days are not only ahead of us, but always will be.
|
| [1] https://alexdanco.com/2020/02/07/debt-is-coming/
| throwaway839246 wrote:
| _> Most importantly, know that the future is bright and that
| our best days are not only ahead of us, but always will be._
|
| I've read (and watched) everything on your list of
| recommendations. Perhaps I should reread Deutch's chapter on
| optimism, but I don't have the same conviction that you do.
| Where does your conviction come from?
| gfodor wrote:
| That we're in the middle of an exponentially growing creation
| of new knowledge, and that (echoing Deutsch) all problems are
| soluble. Now, there are exceptions to this, for example, a
| sudden existential crisis. But I prefer to be an optimist in
| those scenarios, given humanity's demonstrated ability to
| achieve great things. There's a lot of negativity in the
| press about the global response to COVID-19, but I take a
| contrarian view and expect historians to look back at the
| heroic deeds of healthcare workers and researchers to
| overcome this crisis as unprecedented in scale and speed. It
| has exposed cracks in our institutions, surely, but I see it
| has a crystalizing moment to remind us all how much we can
| achieve.
| downerending wrote:
| I'm kind of there, too, though I was never as successful are you
| (I infer).
|
| As far as sleeping well at night, unless you were a sadistic
| bastard to your employees, I think all else is (or should be)
| easily forgiven.
|
| If you behaved monstrously to anyone (and I've been on the
| receiving end of a couple of those deals), you might apologize.
| Don't expect that it will be received well, but that's really all
| you can do.
|
| Beyond that, I think you've mostly just discovered the nature of
| our reality. The Buddhists call it suffering, or just the
| inherent broken-ness or insufficiency of the world. Ecclesiastes
| knew it as well, along with many Western philosophers who
| followed.
|
| What's to be done? Not much. Try to enjoy your life, which is
| almost over anyway. Try to have good time with your wife and
| whatever friends or people may be around. Eat, drink, and be
| merry, as you can. Godspeed.
| ninjakeyboard wrote:
| There is burnout, then there is just being "done." If you're out
| of software and happy, then great. I think we reach a point where
| the draw of money + realization that software is horrible kind of
| collide and end up shaking you, making you realize life is short
| and limited and that there must be something more meaningful. Is
| that a bad thing? Only if you don't do something about it. you
| have an incredible opportunity to do good somewhere somehow.
| You'll need to fix your "charged emotional responses" and
| "reactivity" by learning to be with em instead of running and
| grasping, but there-after, you are freed of the animal-instinct
| burden. It' s a hard path to find and harder still to walk, but
| it's there. No words can capture it or give it, no thinking will
| show you the way out.
| taurath wrote:
| Is technology the reason to wake in the morning, or is it
| curiosity that drives you?
|
| Technology is a great place to find something new and
| interesting. And hey, there's lots of money to be made, and
| hopefully you've done well already. But curiosity can be for
| anything. Step away from technology. Find people doing things you
| don't understand, but look interesting. Try planting something.
| Read about history, archeology, psychology, philosophy. Visit
| museums. Technology and your relationship with it is like staying
| too long with someone you were in love with. Only over time can
| you rekindle the friendship, but for now your post is screaming
| out that you need space.
| xparco wrote:
| Just put a backdoor in the code and f them later
| hurrdurr2 wrote:
| I work in semiconductor manufacturing and I'm in the same boat as
| OP.
|
| I'm not enjoying the work anymore...working from home has helped
| somewhat with the burnout but the social isolation is getting to
| me too. At least I don't have to see my coworkers and boss who
| have stopped caring a long time ago.
|
| Not sure what I am going to do if I just outright quit. My wife
| is supportive but I can't just sit at home doing hobbies.
| austinkyker wrote:
| Do you realize how lucky you are to have had these opportunities?
| To be educated? To be free? Walk around the block. See the
| homeless man sitting on the bench, the woman who can't move her
| right arm because of a stroke, or the kids running around without
| parents.
|
| People get so caught up in their own mind and problems they fail
| to see how lucky they are to be alive. In 100 years from now you
| will be dead. So will I. Take control of your mind.
| xiaolingxiao wrote:
| I have also experience close to burnout and recovered multiple
| times, in the process I have lost very precious relationships,
| and entire years were spent in darkness. I also have friends who
| have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to
| burning out though they would never admit to such. This is the
| nature of the beast, all things that appear glamorous on the
| outside ( Hollywood, Finance, Tech, many nonprofits) is very
| rotten on the inside.
|
| You can't change the past, but you can recalibrate your
| expectations and medidate on what went wrong. Here are some
| thoughts, and I will be very harsh:
|
| 1. Your co-workers may be amazing, but they were never your
| friends. You ran a business and rented their years to help them
| build a nest egg, of which you would claim the majority share had
| it hatched. Alas, the business failed and thus, you no longer add
| value to each other's lives. Move on.
|
| 2. There's what you love, and there's what you do. It's best to
| keep some distance: because no one cares about what you love. VCs
| are vultures and this is well known, but they are also reflecting
| the reality of the market. In the market you're just a vendor.
| Think about all the food stands that you have walked past in your
| life, within each stand is an immigrant family who slave away for
| decades hoping for a better life. Have you ever thought about
| them and gave them time/money for their suffering? No, you only
| cared them inso far as they can cook for you. This is how others
| saw you.
|
| 3. Big companies, and indeed most big institutions is made by a
| silent majority of the defeated. Many have experienced what you
| have said and have long made their peace. They found joy
| elsewhere, and found distance between themselves and their work.
|
| 4. Find self worth and self-love outside of your role in the
| machine, there's the product you produce to trade time for money,
| and then there's you. They are different things. Imagine
| Instagram influencers who post pictures of themselves but feel
| depressed when they don't get enough likes. This is you right
| now, you're looking for external validation from how big your
| integer is in some database. You have to look elsewhere.
| throwaway839246 wrote:
| Thanks for the advice. It's really good.
|
| _> Think about all the food stands that you have walked past
| in your life, within each stand is an immigrant family who
| slave away for decades hoping for a better life. Have you ever
| thought about them and gave them time /money for their
| suffering?_
|
| I know what you mean and know what you're getting at. But I
| feel compelled to point out this particular example isn't quite
| the same. I never sought the immigrant family out, then told
| them that my motivation is to support amazing cooks rooted in
| authentic traditions. I just bought the food.
|
| VCs will lie, literally. They explicitly say they will act in a
| particular way in a specific situation, and then, protected by
| nuanced 300 page contracts, will do the exact opposite of what
| they said they'll do. Assuming you accept that lying to people
| is unethical, people act transactionally with immigrant
| vendors, but not unethically in the same way.
| nnoitra wrote:
| How old are you?
|
| Why would you be at all surprised that VCs lie?
| bigwavedave wrote:
| I don't believe the parent was expressing surprise at this
| unethical behavior, they were instead pointing out one way
| the grandparent's example isn't quite equivalent to the
| situation the OP provided.
| phkahler wrote:
| Projection? As a fairly honest person it took a long time
| to stop assuming other people were too. The alternative
| world view is disappointing but you get used to it.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| People are generally honest of course but investing is an
| adversarial setting essentially by definition, where
| honesty is hard to come by. Sometimes being more honest
| than needed might even put you at an unfair disadvantage,
| and keeping some cards close to your chest is just
| expected.
|
| And of course, it's not like you _have_ to get VC
| involved in order to run a successful business. You can
| self-bootstrap, which lets you focus 110% on efficiency
| and doing more with less. No BS involved.
| xiaolingxiao wrote:
| Yeah the lying is really gross. It's an odd arrangement in
| this country where "shareholder value" can literally justify
| most things in the eyes of those with money. For a more
| personal anecdote, I have a friend who's been in the VC
| industry for 5+ years, and we had a very interesting
| conversation. He was closing a deal with a company and they
| asked for a higher valuation, and he thought objectively it's
| merited. But then he thought: "if I give you the higher
| valuation, then you would have more and I would have less,
| but I want more". And that's the root of it, human nature.
| Now assuming these VCs have been in the game for more than 5
| years, I would imagine they would lie without a second
| thought.
|
| Now see it from the VC's perspective, the game attracts all
| kinds of hustlers who'd lie to investors without a second
| thought as well. My friend and I were talking about what
| business culture is like in a certain area of the world, and
| he said: they oversell everything, so take everything they
| say and divide it by two, and start from there. So part of it
| is also a pre-emptive mechanism based on a history of such
| behaviors from _others_.
|
| None of this make things "ok", but I'm just sharing an
| anecdote from the other side.
| icedchai wrote:
| Divide it by two? He must be an optimist. I divide it by
| 10.
| Aeolun wrote:
| 100M dollar unicorn!
| TomMckenny wrote:
| All accurate and objective and good for everyone to know early
| rather than late. Moving a bit further from the specifics, it's
| worth noting that this is not a natural state of affairs.
| Humans evolved to be in groups of about 30-100 people who they
| knew their whole lives and thus making catastrophic deception
| nearly impossible. Likewise vast sums of wealth did not exist
| nor total social and fiscal isolation surrounded by the
| complete opposite that characterize our city streets and daily
| life.
|
| My point is that human psychology did not evolve in the context
| of our current world and will have enormous difficulty dealing
| with its bad sides. Although the specifics will vary, the
| number of people in the poster's position is undoubtedly
| enormous, with the vast majority too tired or ashamed of
| discussing it or just blaming themselves. This being the case,
| it would be nice to have serious study of it and resources to
| address it more effectively. Not to criticize any poster, but
| it is unfortunate than seeking advice from the web is currently
| the best one can do.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| Even at that time, psychopaths were still successful enough
| to pass on the genes for their trait.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Environment
| dkdk8283 wrote:
| > I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten
| years, and are close to burning out
|
| I realize the audience here is probably mostly younger folks
| but 10 years doing anything is not that much time IMO.
|
| I think a 3rd or 4th burnout at 30 years of service is a lot
| harder to recover from, but I'm biased from my own experience.
| xiaolingxiao wrote:
| Yeah you're absolutely correct. I wish I had more perspective
| to offer but that's what I got. The OP also sounds younger (I
| may be wrong), so I hope it is ok.
| throwaway839246 wrote:
| Would you share yours? I'd really like to hear from an older
| person. I'd imagine you know 10x of what I do now. It would
| be incredibly helpful if you could share some of what you've
| experienced and learned.
| ajavascriptdude wrote:
| this does seem like burnout but there is something else at play
| here.
|
| something which i have felt quite a lot is that in the 90s a lot
| of programming was creative and fun. it was to challenge
| authority.
|
| it created things like winamp.. it really whips the llama's ass.
| when is the last time you heard of a recent startup with a title
| like that?
|
| nowadays everyone around me is working on startups or talking to
| investors where they are simply falling in line.
|
| the good old hacker spirit and the sheer disdain for authority
| and a great sense of wonder has gone. i see young kids, interns
| studying like crazy to get into faang, which drives me crazy.
|
| in the 90s we didn't have that... there was only cool software
| like winamp... that too for free.. tell me a software as cool as
| that since ;)
| danans wrote:
| > But eventually I started exercising, went on anti-depressants,
| and started therapy. Then I got a job that has nothing to do with
| technology. Slowly my happiness returned, and with it my ability
| to focus. I do a lot of sports now and hang out with my non-techy
| friends and my wife. I cook a lot.
|
| Sounds like the issue had less to so with technology and more to
| do with lack of work-life balance and unaddressed clinical
| depression.
| lgeorget wrote:
| Depression caused by a burn-out, caused by a very sh*tty
| professional situation. I don't think it's unique to the tech
| sector but the tech industry _is_ harsh on people.
| olegious wrote:
| "I do a lot of sports now and hang out with my non-techy friends
| and my wife. I cook a lot."
|
| This implies that you didn't do these things before. Which
| implies that you were overworked, didn't take care of yourself
| and naturally you burnt out. I don't think it is an issue with
| tech, it is an issue with you prioritizing work over everything
| else.
| jackcosgrove wrote:
| I have experienced all of the negative emotions the OP
| experienced, although his seem to be more acute.
|
| Some things which have helped me are to stop thinking about
| succeeding or advancing in life. Those goals are so high up most
| people don't even get close. OP got very close by being funded,
| and it sounds like the whole experience was a let-down over and
| above the business failure. It sounds like the OP has let go of
| those dreams, which is necessary especially once you know the
| dark side of those dreams.
|
| Most people are just trying to survive. They have little control
| over their lives, and that relieves some of the self-blame when
| things go badly. It is okay to not be in control, to need help,
| to lose. That's where most people are. You have friends and
| allies.
|
| Now that you know how the system works, would you feel better
| about yourself had you succeeded? Would you feel guilty?
|
| I think OP is being too hard on himself, and he should look back
| on that experience with pride. "I was good enough that they gave
| me a shot." You could have been a contender. You actually landed
| a punch.
| throwaway839246 wrote:
| _> Now that you know how the system works, would you feel
| better about yourself had you succeeded? Would you feel
| guilty?_
|
| I think about that sometimes. Had I been one of the young
| optimistic CEOs running around talking about how to improve the
| world completely unaware of the tech underbelly, what would my
| life be like? If I had a button in front of me that would
| teleport me into that life, would I press it? I'm honestly not
| sure, but I'm leaning towards no. I want to learn how to
| integrate all this and learn to operate knowing what I know. I
| don't think I'd choose staying hopelessly naive for another
| thirty years. (Then again, I don't think they'd press the
| button to teleport into my life either.)
| nitwit005 wrote:
| The complaints are human behavior rather than technology, or the
| culture around it. There are places that are better than others,
| but you're going to encounter self interest and "dilbertesque"
| behavior everywhere.
|
| Personally, I view learning to deal with work is an emotional
| skill you have to develop. Even if you get a job doing math all
| day in a research position, you need to be ready for the usual
| academic politics problems.
| ethanwillis wrote:
| Technology itself is what breeds these environments though.
| Humans haven't changed much, what has changed is our
| environment.
|
| You actually kind of hint at it in your own writing. The
| behavior is everywhere.
| Lord_Baltimore wrote:
| >Humans haven't changed much
|
| You are correct, and humans have been greedy, manipulative,
| and self-centered since the beginning of time. We often don't
| even see it in ourselves. I'm sure many of these people who
| contributed to his disillusionment probably thought they
| weren't too bad...especially when compared with some other
| person!
| nitwit005 wrote:
| There are more people in large organizations now, but the
| problems of greedy financiers and goofy bureaucratic
| behaviors go back thousands of years. I'm sure there is some
| subset of Dilbert comics that ancient Chinese officials would
| have found funny.
| the-pigeon wrote:
| Plus learning to recognize toxic environments and avoid them.
|
| There's a lot of investors and companies that no one should
| ever work with because of this. Learning to recognize them is a
| tricky skill and some people are better off not playing the
| game at all.
| nickstinemates wrote:
| Been there. Still slightly am. It's tough. Expand your hobbies
| and invest in them as you have tech. See where it ends up. It(s)
| kind-of work(ed/ing) for me.
| brenden2 wrote:
| Try moving to a new city. I had a similar experience and moved
| from SF to NYC. NYC is less of a techie bubble than SF. You
| didn't mention where you live, but I just assumed it's somewhere
| in the Bay area.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| I anticipated this was in the vein of, "It's all horrible,
| fundamentally antiquated shit that barely works and is preserved
| by inertial debt and captive markets of hegemonic corporations,"
| not about the ennui of alienation in the bowels of Moloch[0]. xD
|
| 0: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
| Impossible wrote:
| I've been feeling burnout, although not to the same extent as OP,
| for many of the same reasons. The main difference is I never
| stopped loving programming or the creative aspects of making
| things. Ideally I'd like to be a full time hobbyist programmer,
| but that seems out of reach financially. If you want to get back
| into making stuff I suggest doing zero pressure hobby projects
| focused on whatever you enjoy about the process of making (not
| around a mission, or users and definitely not around money) and
| don't actually worry about finishing. Just focus on the act of
| making stuff happen
| ignasl wrote:
| I am not sure what's wrong with you and why you are happy but
| unhappy?! but if I would have to guess - it's most likely
| antidepressants/therapy. There is new "you" but you miss old
| "you". Brain chemistry is no joke and if you don't absolutely
| absolutely need medication don't do it. Ask good doctors for
| second, third and fourth opinions if needed.
| Impossible wrote:
| If anything OP was worse off before they started treatment.
| Changing or getting off meds could be a valid choice but all
| the changes seem to have lead OP to a generally better life
| sbussard wrote:
| Study leadership. Surprisingly technology lacks good leadership,
| and thus creates toxicity.
| burlesona wrote:
| Sounds like several bad work experiences in a row, but all with
| companies on a specific spectrum: hot startup -> unicorn ->
| megacorp. That's a particular flavor of company, and kind of a
| rough treadmill to walk on.
|
| There are a lot of small to mid-size tech companies that actually
| make money, though maybe not unholy mountains of it, where work-
| life balance is great and people just want to make something
| customers love. There are also many agencies that fit that bill.
|
| This risks sounding too simplistic, but in life I've found that
| work tends to fall into three categories:
|
| 1. People who want to get as rich as they possibly can. 2. People
| who want to make a living and enjoy life. 3. People who want work
| to be their passion.
|
| I've learned to avoid #1 and #3.
|
| Re: #1, Many of the best ways to get as rich as possible involve
| screwing other people over. The people who play that game and
| enjoy it end up being pretty cutthroat, because that's kind of
| the point. If that's not you (and it's not me), then it's not fun
| to be part of.
|
| Re: #3, vocational "passion" is just hard. Sometimes this is
| because the dream is so big -- end world hunger, or something.
| Sometimes the dream is so popular -- become a world-famous
| artist, etc. This is where you'll find the dreamers and the
| starving artists. The people who thrive here sort of live in
| their own world where the more mundane concerns of life don't
| matter to them, otherwise they'd burn out and give up.
|
| A lot of people think they need their work to be either about
| Riches or Passion (or worst of all, both), and so they go down
| those paths and find stress, exhaustion, and misery instead of
| happiness.
|
| Meanwhile, in boring old Path #2, you have a whole lot of people
| who work from 9-5 and then go home. They think their job is kind
| of interesting, but they don't think they're "changing the
| world," and that's okay. The happiest folks here tend to be
| craftspersons who know how to make some kind of thing, and
| whatever it is, they make nice ones.
|
| As for me, I spent years that I look back on now as a sad waste
| of time hunting for #1 and #3, before one day having basically no
| choice but to take a "kinda okay" job so I could buy groceries. I
| was badly burned out, and I decided I needed a break, that I'd
| take six months and just "work a stupid job" to recover and pay
| off my credit cards after my experiment in running my own
| business fizzled out. And after six months I realized I was the
| happiest I'd ever been.
|
| Life is kind of weird. It's not glamorous or sexy to just work a
| regular job and go home at 5pm. But it can be the foundation of a
| really happy, satisfying life.
|
| I don't know if that will help you or not, but, I hope some part
| of that is useful to you. Many people have been where you are
| now. It'll get better.
|
| Good luck!
| kyuudou wrote:
| Take a week off, step away from the keyboard, find some humans,
| animals, get a hobby or go back to the one you had. Watch that
| Naval Ravikant Joe Rogan podcast.
| tanilama wrote:
| This seems like a textbook burn-out case.
|
| What you need is detachment.
|
| Real world is ... what it is. Good intention is not enough for
| good things to happen. Our system seems to be programmed in a
| way, that it can go worse it will, until it hits the brake.
|
| So relax, the world is what it is. What needs to be changed is
| our perception. Plus, tech should define a person, it can be part
| of identity, but don't let it take hold of it. After all,
| technologies are just manmade tools, they are fancier but no
| different than knives and sticks. Why let a tool define what you
| are and what you should be?
| ohSai3as wrote:
| I would recommend hacking. Not cracking, mind you, but tinkering.
| Focusing not on building a product, but on toying for just a few
| hours with something you find cool, and have fun with it.
|
| This is what made it for me when I started being disillusioned
| with my work (I became a developer thinking the internet would
| bring direct democracy like printing brought democracy, and
| instead it brought mass surveillance and complotism).
|
| I play with the decentralized web (dat), with raspberry pi, with
| system programming, with whatever new (to me) I feel like. And
| just like that, I'm happy again and enjoying my craft again. I
| just want out of "the industry" and can't wait to have saved
| enough to be able to do that (gladly, this is a work line where
| we're lucky enough to be able to retire early, if we're good with
| simple life).
| Y-Bopinator wrote:
| I can't even get a job in software and I live in a car. Fuck you,
| you fucking snowflake.
| ACow_Adonis wrote:
| I don't know how well this will go down in HN, but here's my
| take/secret:
|
| Corporations and business aren't programming/tech/ science.
| Startups aren't tech. University and academics isn't science.
| Faculties aren't science. Peer review isn't science. Venture
| capitalists aren't tech. Silicon valley isn't tech/ science. "The
| web" isn't tech.
|
| Let's try another analogy: modern art and art dealerships and art
| galleries aren't art. Art is taking a photo you like, or painting
| something you want to paint or building something you want to
| build. Working at it because you want it and you think it will be
| beautiful or purposeful: once you're trying to make business and
| money and find out what's popular and build reputation and sell
| you tend to stop doing art and start doing something else.
|
| So to bring it back to tech and science.
|
| Science is just the process of systematically trying to use
| experimentation, empiricism and reasoning to find out what you
| don't know. That's it! The rest is some combination of empty
| shells, dressing and propaganda.
|
| Flashing LEDs isn't tech.
|
| Tech is just tools used for some purpose, be it practical or
| enjoyment. Nothing more. A hammer is tech. A rock is tech. A
| string can be tech.
|
| I program in R and python and get paid for it these days. But I
| try to not bring it home, because it's not tech, and it's not
| science and it's not programming. When I'm programming I'm
| usually in emacs and lisp. I do photography to produce things I
| think are beautiful. I cook to provide tasty and healthy and
| enjoyable experiences for my family (and a scientific mindset can
| be quite helpful there). I apply science just continuously in
| life. And I hack together things in tech because I enjoy it and
| to make my life easier: why just this weekend I made our living
| room into a video conference centre for our corona virus
| quarantine: my phone is the webcam and streams wirelessly to the
| computer, my computer streams wireless display to my TV, my TV
| routes sound back out through the AV unit, and the room is lit
| with customisable hue lighting. All done for a few bucks of
| software and it'll never sell a unit and I don't care, because
| money and selling isn't tech.
| starbugs wrote:
| Take a break.
|
| If necessary, a long break.
|
| What you write sounds alarmingly familiar to me. It's probably
| not as simple as just calling it "burnout", but that may be one
| component of what you're going through.
|
| I also learned the hard way that it's important to look after
| myself. And it took way too long when looking back today.
|
| You seem to have invested way too much of yourself into this and
| maybe you have lost track of what's really important in life.
|
| Take a break.
|
| Feel free to contact me if you wanna talk.
| toohotatopic wrote:
| Count the I-s in your text. Why would you want to program for
| yourself if you are already happy and mentally engaged otherwise?
| You will want to build something once you find a problem that you
| can solve for somebody else.
|
| Or think of a product that you want all by yourself that is not
| available right now. Use programming to make it real.
| battery_cowboy wrote:
| I'm having similar issues, and i think i found a way out: stop
| playing their game. Don't make enterprise software. Don't write
| unit tests. Don't accept pull requests. Simply write software for
| yourself and have fun doing it. Forget refactoring code into
| modules, just fucking code. Don't worry about deployment with
| k8s, just copy the Python script to your production folder and
| run it. Fuck all that shit about git branch naming conventions,
| or how you're supposed to use an object factory, just do whatever
| you want in the moment, bit by bit, until your software works
| most of the time then _use it_. Forget configuration, just hard
| code values for now. Don 't worry about documentation, just do
| it.
|
| Your expectations, and the expectations of others, are your enemy
| here.
|
| At least, that's what got me out it. I'm still disillusioned with
| the world but it's manageable if I can realize I'm making a
| difference to my son and wife every day, and that's what counts
| for me.
| thorwasdfasdf wrote:
| This. and let's add: don't use fancy frameworks (that are cool
| and popular) that cause many headaches for you down the road.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| This is the best and worst part about open source dev.
|
| Pro: You can do whatever you want
|
| Con: You can do whatever you want (including things that will
| bite you in the ass later)
|
| I've also noticed that AI/ML falls into the exact same pit
| because many folks there are cowboy coding
| harimau777 wrote:
| I think that it would be difficult to keep a job following that
| approach.
| Royalaid wrote:
| I think this is a natural reaction to advice being over
| prescribed and totally agree that in your free time you should
| do whatever it is you want and this is solid advice.
|
| BUT I think we should also acknowledge that everything that
| slows you down in your free time has a reason for existing and
| most of that is communication or knowledge sharing within a
| team. Naming conventions, unit tests, and general documentation
| all exist to help other team members keep up with the pace of
| changes in the repository. If you're not planning to do
| something in a team setting or for this to be consumed outside
| of the work that you do then you don't need these things. But
| if you want to share with everyone else it's important that you
| don't totally ignore these things because it will come back to
| bite you in the long run.
| [deleted]
| wolco wrote:
| The idea is to stop trying to make it easier to share and
| others to use and just write something that works for you.
|
| Kinda like the idea for personal. Why spend so much effort to
| structure projects so others can use when chances are they
| won't or you don't care if they do. Work is governed by
| different realities.
| makapuf wrote:
| Thats exactly what i did while working on dreaded big data. Got
| myself a microcontroller, implemented a small arm console and
| write fucking low level C code optimized the heck of cpu cycles
| for tiny games, no code reuse, no interfaced, no deadlines, no
| refacto, no security, no network, no politics. Barely version
| control (with appropriate "update" commit messages). Kept me
| sane while doing those things at work.
| ay wrote:
| +1 on the small 1-2 weekend tangible projects, that you may
| have wanted to build before, but never got to, they are great
| for morale.
|
| This weekend I implemented RS232-powered RGB LED that is
| controlled attiny85, which reacts to strings sent to that
| very same RS232. A gross violation of standard, probably, but
| it works! It definitely added a lot of joy.
|
| I typed "git init" only after I finished the first working
| version which had a regular One-color LED, and could not yet
| do blinking :-)
| rwesty wrote:
| This is really, really bad advice. Mutiny is hardly an answer
| to the problem here. It will certainly temporarily avoid the
| problems you face but if you are a member of a team and this is
| truly how you act you will get chucked out very quickly. But
| since you bring up a few of the issues you are facing it's
| important to address them. I want to focus on unit tests to
| start.
|
| When I started my first programming job a couple of years ago I
| joined a team that demanded 100% code coverage. I hated them so
| much. I was still learning the ropes at this company and I only
| saw the unit tests as a barrier to getting my work done and
| earning my paycheck. My first solution was to create bogus
| tests that always passed. That was quickly discovered and I was
| reprimanded. My second solution was to get colleagues who
| shared my hate for unit tests to approve my PRs before they
| were reviewed by my team. That too was thwarted.
|
| Then one day I was working with a teammate on a new feature and
| we discovered a bug. He quickly opened up a test file and wrote
| a unit test, then he went tried a couple solutions until the
| test turned green. Then he looked at me and said, "When when
| you are working in a pile of crap, testing makes you feel more
| confident about your code." That was my first insight into the
| value of testing. Eventually I came around and stopped trying
| to avoid tests. I just did the damn work. Once I established
| trust with my teammates they began to let the pressure off my
| PRs and slowly the displeasure of writing tests went away.
|
| You pointed out a few different coding practices that frustrate
| you. And to be honest, those coding practices are not the
| gospel and should be deployed only when truly needed. However I
| think you have a serious problem with what a lot of us call
| being a good teammate. At the end of the day your goal should
| be to get the product shipped, once you focus on getting your
| features out the door, unit testing and pull requests become
| minor details in that process. At the end of the day those are
| just a cutesy to your teammates to show them that you are
| willing to be a responsible and helpful team member. Stop
| trying to fight everyone so much and maybe you will enjoy your
| job a little more.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| While I dabbled with python and Delphi for a bit,my first
| real development was on Salesforce platform with their
| proprietary language called Apex. The first thing every
| developer learns on thos platform is that your code has to
| have at least 75% test coverage before it can be pushed to
| production.Testing was inevitable and ultimately part of
| anything I had to write. With time,I started reading more and
| more about development, tried different languages and etc.It
| was really fascinating to read how a lot of people hate
| testing or teams skip them if the deadlines need to be met.
| What testing taught me is that if the test is hard to
| write,it means that the code is crap.Every time I wrote some
| quick hack,it used to take me 10 times longer to write unit
| test.
| Aeolun wrote:
| But what do you do if your initial codebase is crap. You
| literally cannot test until you refactor 50% of it into
| something semi-sensible.
| catalogia wrote:
| I don't think the GP's advice is meant for team projects.
|
| > _" Don't make enterprise software. [...] Don't accept pull
| requests. Simply write software for yourself and have fun
| doing it."_
| cblum wrote:
| That's how I read it too.
|
| I've recently started doing that and it's been a breath of
| fresh air.
|
| I don't really like the stuff I work with, which is
| services. I think I've become good at it given the feedback
| I get from my peers every review cycle, but I really don't
| like it.
|
| I felt burned out for a long time because of that.
|
| Recently I've simply been doing what I'm interested in, in
| my spare time. That's learning about embedded systems,
| something I had an interest in in college but never pursued
| a career. And for fun, tinkering with old stuff that makes
| me nostalgic. I spent this last weekend coding in Pascal
| and messing around with FreeDOS :)
| [deleted]
| unclebucknasty wrote:
| This is a great point, laced with an appropriate level of
| anger.
|
| As a graybeard, I've seen multiple generations of "how to do
| software", and the most recent are the least fun. A lot of this
| is driven by the agile approach. It's tailor-made for dev
| burnout: from the endless tight cycles that force people into
| an infinite loop of productivity with scant satisfaction that
| comes with "completion", to all of the tools and philosophies
| designed to force that endless loop to be successful/workable.
| CI/CD, Git, TDD, etc. These all _impose_ on the developer 's
| creativity, independence, and enjoyment. They turn devs into
| cogs--assembly line workers who must not stop the line at any
| cost.
|
| One example: back in the day, there was a nightly build, not a
| continuous one. And, you checked out a file, worked on it, and
| checked it back in. If someone else needed it, they had to
| wait. That obviously had its limitations and it seems laughable
| by today's standards. But, it was reflective of a _human_ pace
| that considered devs as humans vs. optimizable assets. That is,
| it was workable because the expectations on devs weren 't
| insane. But, now we commit and merge. Think of how much less
| fun it is to spend your time resolving merge conflicts.
|
| More to the point, the approach itself implies a chaotic pace
| wherein code that meets the standards of a certain box must be
| produced at all times. Devs must bear the cost of resolving any
| conflicts (literally) that arise from this chaotic pace.
|
| Likewise, with CI/CD. And don't get me started on the monkey-
| work that is TDD. You might argue that it improves code
| quality. But, it's hard to make the case that it improves job
| satisfaction. If you move more work from the creative, problem-
| solving bucket into the busy-work bucket, the result will _not_
| be personal fulfillment.
|
| Does agile increase productivity for companies? Sure. But, it
| comes at a high cost that's mostly paid by devs.
| throwaway839246 wrote:
| I'd add open office plans to this. It's awful. You never
| quite get to focus, you don't build the rapport with your
| team, you don't get to customize your physical environment.
| Development really became a white collar version of the
| assembly line.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| It's kind of weird by now. They will happily offer you
| $200k in annual salary, but an office with a window where
| you could keep a potted plant is out of the question.
| jblow wrote:
| This is right.
|
| The OP said he is "disillusioned with technology" but I didn't
| see actual technology being described as the problem with any
| point. So there's a conflation here happening between
| technology and "tech" companies. And I can only say the phrase
| "tech" companies while using sarcasm quotes around "tech",
| because almost nobody at any of these companies develops actual
| technology. And that's a big part of the problem.
| kristopolous wrote:
| There's a subculture that's reinvented the merits of software
| engineering to being as ornate and ceremonious as possible.
|
| It doesn't have to work, or be bug free, or compatible with
| the previous version, or address any real world need.
|
| It has to use fashionable technology and be extremely
| complicated so other programmers can see how incredibly
| clever they were!
|
| Almost like they took a random bug from the issue tracker,
| opened to a random page of Knuth by letting a fan blow on the
| pages for 5 minutes and said "alright, I'll solve this
| problem in that way! Surely everyone will acknowledge my
| genius!"
|
| It may be a slow lumbering buggy pile of brittle barely
| functional code about to implode, but it sure does look nice!
| aprdm wrote:
| This! (And wait until you figure out there's a lot of real
| companies running like that..)
|
| I would say to also work in a domain you care about and like. I
| don't like technology for technology sake and never did.
|
| I like solving problems and see technology as a tool to do so.
| I love the company I work for, the people and the problems we
| get to solve. I love even more when I solve them without the
| need to write a single line of code.
| gfosco wrote:
| That's generally an unpopular and unwelcome opinion here, but I
| agree with you 100%. edit: and i'll happily take those
| downvotes, they are delicious thank you.
| cyborgx7 wrote:
| you are not getting downvotes because people are disagreeing
| with you
| xparco wrote:
| Stop lying
| 0xdeadbeefbabe wrote:
| Not on this story. Those other folks are too busy configuring
| stuff, arguing about curl website/script.sh | sh, and
| building microservices to feel burnt out yet.
| bori5 wrote:
| Thats how some places operate by default.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Interesting way to post the question, if we are truly "done" with
| tech.
|
| I'd say a LiveJournal entry might be more apropos. :)
|
| TL;DR: Maybe tech isn't your gig. It's important to find what is.
|
| First, my heart goes out to you. It really does stink to be where
| you are.
|
| I'd say it's a matter of expectations. The "conventional wisdom"
| is "Don't have expectations, and you won't be disappointed."
|
| Sounds good. I have yet to meet anyone that truly meets that bar.
|
| We all have expectations. It's human nature.
|
| The deal is how we _react_ to those expectations.
|
| I get my expectations trounced on a regular basis. That which
| does not kill me, makes me stronger.
|
| Except for Dilbert's corollary: _" That which does not kill me,
| leaves me weak and exhausted."_
|
| When you signed up for a tech career, _why_ did you sign up for
| it? What did you expect?
|
| In the 1980s, there was an explosion of doctors and lawyers.
| Medical schools were so crowded that people had to study abroad.
|
| The reason was that a doctor could look forward to a six-figure
| salary (and a six-figure insurance bill); right out of the
| starting gate. Lawyers...maybe not as much, but LA Law was a
| popular show, back then, so everyone thought it was the best
| career move ever.
|
| That resulted in a _ton_ of mediocre doctors and lawyers. They
| didn 't _love_ what they did.
|
| My father was a Harvard-graduate lawyer. Top of his class. Silver
| Star war hero (planted in Arlington). He could have written his
| own checks.
|
| But he hated it, and joined the CIA, instead (which he later quit
| in disgust). I think he felt that he should have learned a
| different career, all his life. He was never happy, and that
| broke my heart.
|
| SO HERE'S WHERE I MAKE IT ALL ABOUT ME:
|
| It also taught me that it's _really important_ to be happy with
| my vocation.
|
| So here I am...refactoring myself to be happy.
|
| I was a manager for a significant part of my career. I was very
| good at it.
|
| And hated it. Being good at something is _not_ the same as being
| happy doing it.
|
| I _love_ tech. My worst nightmare is to feel the way you do
| (talking to the poster). Nothing gives me more joy than to craft
| a superb application, and know that it is as close to perfect as
| God will allow.
|
| That means that I have to be careful who I let have any control
| over my work. The current tech scene is absolutely _nuts_ about
| money and prestige. People are more than willing to peddle cow
| flops, if they can buy a Tesla with the proceeds.
|
| Others use money as a leash and a lash, to tie us down and force
| us to do their bidding.
|
| People like me are nothing but transient resources to be used up
| and discarded.
|
| So I have enough set aside to be...OK (not rolling in dough);
| even after this current kerfuffle. It allows me to be picky about
| what I do, and who I let have control of my work.
|
| I'm really _really_ into quality software. You might say that I
| 'm obsessed. To me, it's a craft.
|
| Think of me as the old Swiss guy, making cuckoo clocks in his
| garage. There's not much of a market for cuckoo clocks, but my
| clocks are gonna be the best clocks you can get. I won't let
| anyone force me to use crappy pine, when walnut is what works
| best, and I won't mass-produce them.
|
| But I'm a happy little old clock maker, and if anyone wants
| _really good_ cuckoo clocks, they know where to go. They just
| have to work with me, and not expect me to be hog-tied by bling.
|
| I sincerely wish you the best, and hope you get your groove back.
| fizixer wrote:
| Talk about the worst miswording of an essay title, and/or
| mischaracterization of the situation.
|
| > Extremely disillusioned with non-tech folks dominating and
| causing misery in every aspect of technological pursuits
|
| FTFY
| gaze wrote:
| People will say you're burned out, and they're not wrong... but
| this doesn't address the substance of the issue. To be an
| engineer or a scientist today means tolerating a lot of the
| things you've mentioned. I would amend your list to engineers
| that had a passion for EE and value human life (who doesn't?) but
| took a job at Raytheon. The things you identify are valid issues.
| If you're worn so thin you can't ignore them, it has the effect
| of ruining your entire relationship with the art. The thing to
| remember is that this is not the fundamental nature of science or
| engineering, but the nature of practicing these things today
| under the framework in which we live. From there, maybe you can
| find places where you can practice your art which are less prone
| to these issues. You may have to compromise on career stability
| or pay. People are rarely paid well to do fun, low stress things.
| Maybe the best thing to do is stay out of tech professionally,
| and slowly ease back into programming as a hobby by working on
| small projects. I'm not sure. All I know is that with burnout
| it's somewhat challenging to untoast toast, but you will recover
| eventually. It's just always a bit slower than one would hope,
| but it does happen.
|
| Another angle perhaps is working on clarifying to yourself the
| ways in which you got hurt, so programming may feel less painful.
| I found that learning about politics and history-- specifically
| the history of engineering-- really helped me sort out my
| feelings. It also gives a sense of clarity of where the rotten
| parts come from and maybe how to avoid them.
| throwaway839246 wrote:
| Thanks for the advice. This all sounds right.
|
| _> I found that learning about politics and history--
| specifically the history of engineering-- really helped me sort
| out my feelings._
|
| Is there any specific reading you'd recommend?
| bjt2n3904 wrote:
| You may enjoy listening to Jonathan Coulton's Solid State. It's a
| magnificent album about someone similarly disillusioned with
| tech.
|
| The album is uploaded on YouTube, but this was the teaser that he
| uploaded before the album release.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvVNxqosZ7s
| MR4D wrote:
| Wow.
|
| A bit depressing (and I don't even work in tech anymore!), but
| I think he nailed it - it's the rat race. It applies to anyone
| right now who feels stuck in a job with no meaning.
| bjt2n3904 wrote:
| The whole album addresses this topic, it's very Pink Floyd-
| ian in the story that it tells through a nearly continuous
| track. "Pictures of Cats" is one of my favorites, an elegy
| for the 24/7 cycle of bad news and the toll it takes on us.
| Definitely worth a listen.
| MaximumMadness wrote:
| Really enjoyed this - thank you for sharing
| fxtentacle wrote:
| FYI there's some good advice on the gist, too.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| > I lost many friends.
|
| They weren't ever your friends. People at work rarely transcend
| beyond co-workers and into actual friendship. If all you do
| together is work and around-work activities, they probably aren't
| your friends. You're effectively people locked in a cage together
| that happen to get along.
|
| If you get together on days you don't work together then they
| might actually be your friend. If they've met your non-work
| friends they might be your friend. If they attend your birthday
| party where they don't work with 95% of people there they might
| be your friend.
|
| If you don't invite them to those things you don't actually
| consider them a friend. If you hold any power over someone (e.g.
| CTO-employee relationships) and they do this stuff they still
| might not be your friend. But if they don't do any of this stuff
| they definitely, 100% are not your friend.
|
| Also, one of the best ways to fuck up a friendship is to hire
| them. You need to be sure you can properly separate business and
| friendship if you ever do this.
| TallGuyShort wrote:
| I was shocked at the beginning of the lockdown in Silicon
| Valley how many colleagues immediately went to a dark place
| because they had virtually no support structure, social
| interaction, or even sense of identity outside of their in-
| person workplace associations. Granted, a lot of in-person
| socialization out of the office is also off-the-table, but
| that's not the problem I heard from people.
|
| It's not healthy to live your entire life so embedded within a
| corporation.
| Balgair wrote:
| It's understandable.
|
| Look at pre 2012 SV. All the ping-pong tables, all the
| beanbag chairs, the free beer, the free laundry, the sleep-
| pods, the cafeterias, etc. 'Cynical' people thought that
| these accruements were meant to keep you there and working
| all the time. People got rid of their apartments, set up
| Winnebagos in the parking lot. Intents do matter, but still,
| if you were that kind of person, the one that thought Google
| was just college 2.0, well, yeah, quarantime is not going to
| be good to you.
|
| This pandemic is resetting a lot of things. Expectations of
| intimacy are another thing on the list.
| antisthenes wrote:
| This, 1000x times. At least someone understands what it means
| to be a friend.
|
| It's daunting to hear so many people throw this term around
| casually.
| helen___keller wrote:
| I feel like every engineer, at some point in their life, learns
| that engineering is a discipline devoted to producing value,
| typically business value, not one devoted to building cool shit.
| All else is just dealing with the implications of that.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| I worked in tech for 23 years, as an employee, freelancer,
| consultant, and business owner. I did development, devops,
| testing, management, sales... and after working my way through
| burnout several times and seeing the industry change in ways I
| don't like, I walked away to a new career. While not perfect and
| nowhere near as intellectually stimulating, it sure beats what I
| experienced in tech from an emotional and mental standpoint. So
| while "find your passion" is a little trite, there is something
| to be said for "find something that doesn't drain you every day,
| that pays your bills, that you might even enjoy, that enables you
| to live how you wish."
| ddevault wrote:
| There's a lot of good advice and insights in this thread. You
| have good reason for feeling this way, and all of the paths
| people have suggested - ways to move on and stay in tech; how to
| leave tech entirely; how to make it a hobby instead of a job; or
| some other middle ground - are valid ways to address this
| problem.
|
| But, I may suggest an additional option: do something about it.
| Build a business that eschews VC culture, or become a VC who
| doesn't fit in among their blood-sucking peers. Run for office,
| and use those resources to address these problems. Teach other
| how to avoid these mistakes. You may have found your big problem
| to solve - put that engineering intellect towards deliberately,
| systematically solving the problems which burned you. That
| problem-solving attitude you learned for writing programs can be
| applied to other problems, too.
|
| This is the most difficult solution to your feelings, and no one
| would fault you for taking any of the other paths suggested in
| this thread. But, if you're up for it, you could make a real
| impact and I think you would find it very rewarding.
| throwaway839246 wrote:
| Thank you, I will consider it. I wonder what subset of these
| problems can be solved, and what subset is a fixed property of
| the human experience. I don't know yet. This is a massive
| problem, and a business is likely not the right vehicle to
| solve it. Political office might be, but everyone (myself
| included) seems disillusioned with that too. I'll think about
| it.
| throwawaycorona wrote:
| Accept the world for what is vs. what you want it to be.
|
| As child you revolted against reality by escaping into sci-fi. No
| judgement here.
|
| I find that sci-fi, especially good sci-fi is more digestible
| form of philosophy.
|
| As you aged and achieved comfort and "success" the world has
| revealed to be unfair. You always knew it to be the case but now
| you see it. The lies. The callous nature. The straight up self
| surviving people that seem to be self-satisfied without even a
| hint of guilt you get for accidentally swapping a fly.
|
| You have guilt for not being as happy as you should be given how
| lucky you are despite all the things that didn't quite work out
| the way you wanted them to. And yet, wake up every day you must.
| Do something. You have companionship, yet another privilege you
| can feel guilty for not appreciating it enough.
|
| So how to fix this? Stop expecting the world to be something it
| is not. Stop hoping for humanity. This is not a sad thought, but
| once you accept reality. Then and only then can you figure "okay,
| now what". What problems do I want to solve, which people do I
| want to help.
|
| You realize you can't help everyone. So focus. Appreciate the
| gratitude you get by serving others. Could be family or your
| community, but big nameless though important causes won't feed
| your soul.
|
| Check out some stuff on The Myth of Sisyphus. This may help you
| in your journey. What we fear to enslave us is the thing that may
| actual free us. The obligations of life provides the purpose that
| freedom never give.
| oaiey wrote:
| Well, why getting yourself burned in a startup? Take a reasonable
| sized company with a traditional business you like but do not
| love and work there as an employee, best in a country where
| employee rights mean something.
|
| Being a corporate black matter developer is actually quite good.
| jupp0r wrote:
| Think of an interesting non-software related domain that you
| enjoy and then use software to solve a problem in it. 10 years
| ago I scraped a run logger app backend for my running statistics
| and did data analysis on my GPS tracks that helped my training
| (things that Strava is doing today).
|
| Don't make it into a product or publish it or do anything else
| that creates pressure on you. Just do it to solve your own
| problems. Be ok with the vast majority of those projects never
| being completed. The deal is to learn something and enjoy the
| pure act of creating something.
| peterwwillis wrote:
| You're an artist trying to find artistic and personal fulfillment
| in somebody else's art factory. That will never work.
|
| You can try to make a living making your own art, and hustle and
| struggle the way artists do. Or you can work in a monotonous
| factory churning out someone else's art. The latter is easier,
| but it requires putting up with more bullshit. The former is
| harder, but you feel good about it. That's life.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| "I lost many friends". No,you did not.Those weren't your friends.
| Not sure if various feelings mentioned in the post are targeted
| correctly. Yes, there's lots of politics,bs,and coolaid drinking
| in a lot of companies,but that's the nature of what we humans
| are. There are a lot of very rewarding and interesting jobs out
| there that don't have all that bs attached to them,just don't be
| shy to look a bit further.
| pnathan wrote:
| I love hacking on code, it's why I got into it. The Official side
| of it all can be a real bummer. I can always measure my burnout
| levels of Official work by how much I start hacking at home. I
| make a fairly distinct separation between work and home, always
| have. Even though I have worked late and passionately at times.
| :) I always enjoy the new file, the fresh project smell, the
| beauty of code.
|
| There's something deeply joyous about the potential of an empty
| file and where you can take it. If I lost that joy, that would be
| very grievous.
| cyborgx7 wrote:
| As long as the primary motivator remains profit, rather than
| increasing the averages person Quality of life, technology will
| be used to replace people to their detriment, rather than to
| their advantage.
|
| I'm sorry I have no good reason for you why you shouldn't be
| depressed. I'm afraid, depression might be the appropriate
| reaction to the state of things.
| ethanwillis wrote:
| Even if profit is removed technology will still remain and
| shackle producers to production lines for the benefit of others
| by stripping away the autonomy of every individual though.
|
| I don't think it's just "profit" that's the problem.
| cyborgx7 wrote:
| >shackle producers to production lines for the benefit of
| others
|
| so, for profit?
| ethanwillis wrote:
| Whether you provide all of the basic needs for a man and he
| farms for others, or whether you provide him a wage.. it's
| all the same in the sense of removing his autonomy.
|
| You'll notice from the writer's essay that he started to
| become "more happy" when he was able to exercise some
| autonomy without all of the pressure.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| _I 'm afraid, depression might be the appropriate reaction to
| the state of things._
|
| The trouble with modern work is it's so intangible, there is no
| physical product at the end, no machine restored to working
| order, no field ploughed, just a pile of bits shifted around.
|
| I keep saying it here, I think for most of us we would be
| better off dropping the side projects and instead doing
| something with our hands. It might be baking bread, playing
| with Lego, woodwork, DIY, anything away from the keyboard.
| cyborgx7 wrote:
| Alienation from the product of your labor existed before
| digitalization as well.
| daenz wrote:
| Sometimes I feel this way when I have unaddressed issues in my
| life. And I don't necessarily mean emotional/psych things;
| Sometimes it is as simple as having a messy room/harddrive, or
| some things that have sat on the backburner for far too long.
| Take a step back and see if you have any of those things, then
| address them deliberately, and see if you feel better.
| brundolf wrote:
| I think what you're disillusioned with is capitalism.
|
| Try building something you could never make money off of.
| Something useless, but fun. Try divorcing technology from the
| vultures and the dilberts.
|
| Here are some technologists doing useless, joyful things:
|
| https://twitter.com/MatthewRayfield
|
| https://twitter.com/Foone
|
| https://twitter.com/_naam
|
| Best of luck.
| JPLeRouzic wrote:
| Perhaps you need to find a new domain where you could apply your
| skills. Why not inventing computer models of diseases for the
| drug research. The FDA has already accepted a model in place of
| an expensive clinical trial.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modelling_biological_systems
| wayoutthere wrote:
| My response to this was to just recognize "I will have no control
| over outcomes unless I start playing corporate politics". I
| stopped reading up on the newest frameworks and started
| understanding finance and org behavior. Then I went and got an
| MBA.
|
| Ultimately engineering is an entry-level job. Yes there are more
| senior engineering roles, but they all involve progressively more
| political involvement the higher you go. Turns out technology
| organizations are basically like every other hierarchy in human
| history.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2020-05-04 23:00 UTC)