[HN Gopher] Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen
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Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen
Author : marttt
Score : 49 points
Date : 2020-05-24 18:07 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (raypeat.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (raypeat.com)
| bob1029 wrote:
| I've been off caffeine for going on 40 days now. Work/health were
| suffering and I needed to hit the reset button. Some days its
| rough, but on average the change is worth it now. Last week I was
| able to deal with an extremely stressful event at work without
| losing my calm. If I had been hopped up on my usual morning brew
| under similar circumstances, I probably would have made some
| serious career-altering mistakes (not necessarily my career).
| mustachionut wrote:
| People who aren't super healthy don't typically feel like
| drinking lots of caffeine. I think that's a more likely
| explanation than caffeine having tons of assorted health
| benefits.
| chrischattin wrote:
| I think it's the opposite. People drink caffeine to mask an
| unhealthy lifestyle - lack of sleep, hungover, poor diet,
| sedentary, out of shape, etc.
| simias wrote:
| >Coffee drinkers have been found to have lower cadmium in
| tissues; coffee making removes heavy metals from water.
|
| How does that work? Where do the metals go?
|
| Searching in the rest of the article I find:
|
| >Coffee drinkers, for example, have been found to have lower
| levels of cadmium in their kidneys than people who don't use
| coffee, and coffee is known to inhibit the absorption of iron by
| the intestine, helping to prevent iron overload.
|
| I'm immediately suspicious of the way this is framed (I know many
| people who suffer from lack of iron, I guess they should avoid
| coffee). And what about the heavy metals then?
| maxerickson wrote:
| Presumably the metals are absorbed by the grounds.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| Perhaps the diuretic effect of caffeine contributes to the
| flushing out of all things, some heavy metals included?
| ta17711771 wrote:
| The beans, I'd imagine.
| etaioinshrdlu wrote:
| The funny thing is caffeine is produced by the plant to try to
| poison herbivores. It's a very effective insecticide. So are
| perhaps most other drugs made by plants.
| dehrmann wrote:
| It's the same thing with nicotine and capsaicin (we like these)
| and cyanide (not so much).
| sprusemoose wrote:
| My teeth doctor told me it's bad for my teeth, so I now use a
| straw to pumpjack my demon nectar
|
| glorious feast
| user982 wrote:
| Are you sure they were warning about drinking it, and not its
| effect of worsening bruxism?
| DiabloD3 wrote:
| He was incorrect based on the existing evidence.
|
| Sugar-laden diets combined with both a mineral poor diet (ergo,
| no dental remineralization) and a constant subclinical
| dehydration (did you drink your gallon of water today? no?
| saliva is the vehicle for said remineralization, and is one of
| the first to be hit during early stages of dehyrdation; water
| is required to maintain the pH of your mouth) is bad your
| teeth.
|
| The worst coffee can do is stain already poor enamel. Coffee is
| hardly acidic, and its a myth that its more destructive.
|
| Now, if you drink your coffee with sugar? _Thats_ bad, learn to
| drink it black.
|
| https://www.ada.org/en/~/media/ADA/Public%20Programs/Files/J...
|
| Anything on this list that is below a pH of 5 you should
| strongly avoid. pH is a log scale, so, pH of 5 is 10x worse
| than 6, 4 is 10x worse than 5 or 100x worse than 6; the
| hydroxyapatite in tooth enamel starts to dissolve at 5.5, and
| coffee is only 5.11, well within your mouth's ability to
| handle.
|
| If he warned you because you suffer from bruxism, not because
| of tooth decay, for most people, just follow the normal rules
| for coffee that everyone else should follow: avoid caffeine 6
| hours before bed.
| sprusemoose wrote:
| Thank you sir, I tip my hat and raise my Caffe latte to you~
| gjs278 wrote:
| hey we used to chat in #bitcoin-dev
| dsego wrote:
| You can also wash it away with a glass of water. It's common in
| cafes to get a glass of water with coffee. After every sip of
| coffee take a sip of water. This helps wit hydration as well.
| omani wrote:
| coffe does not dehydrate. that myth was debunked long time
| ago.
|
| the reason you get a cup of water to your coffe at cafes is
| to drink the water BEFORE you drink the coffee. the water
| helps to neutralize any (bad) taste in your mouth (eg after a
| meal) so you can get the most out of the aroma of the coffee.
| chrischattin wrote:
| I have a theory that 50 years from now people will look back on
| caffeine the same way we look back on everyone smoking in the
| 50's. There were tons of "smoking is healthy" articles back then
| too, and it was baked into the culture. Caffeine's negatives are
| more hidden and second order effects that come from increased
| cortisol levels, lack of sleep, adrenal fatigue, etc. I've done a
| bunch of research on this and might write it up in a blog post
| someday.
| justinator wrote:
| > write it up in a blog post someday
|
| No time like the present! Brew up a pot, and get hammerin'! :)
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| The one thing that interests me in this piece is the bit about
| cadmium and heavy metals and the references at the bottom don't
| seem to list a study pertinent to this.
|
| I've used "search page" and I've skimmed through all the titles,
| but I have crap eyesight. So maybe I'm missing the reference.
|
| But I would love to see good research relating caffeine or coffee
| consumption to somehow helping with heavy metal issues.
| ethbro wrote:
| The initial phrasing about heavy metals sounded to me like it
| was referring to the brewing process (without being specific as
| to which one).
|
| At first approximation, I'd be surprised if agitating heated
| water in the presence of particular matter that increased its
| acidity, then running it through a fine woven filter, didn't
| have _some_ net effect.
|
| As for the exact mechanism and efficacy, that's unfortunately
| buried under 10,000,000 search results for coffee enema
| products...
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Yeah, I caught that. But I also chalked it up to "the most
| defensible thing to say." It's part of why I would like to
| see studies of some sort.
|
| I've done a little googling myself and wasn't thrilled with
| the results either, which is why I returned to the article to
| look at its sources to see if I could find a better place to
| start -- a thread to pull, if you will, to begin to unravel
| this question. Good sources tend to lead to other good
| sources, if only by telling you what sorts of phrases to use
| in your next search.
| acituan wrote:
| I can help but feel lied to when there is only a laundry list of
| "good"s and no analysis on downsides.
|
| When I read "it helps with this" "it prevents this", I always ask
| "but at what cost". Can an exogenous molecule that was so
| adaptive be missed this bad and now consuming it will just fill
| that gap we had for millions of years?
|
| Let's not kid ourselves. Concentrated caffeine is a drug and not
| a nutrient. We drink it because it is psychoactive and we
| habituate to it. Try drinking redbull as a caffeine-naive person
| or not drinking coffee as a daily drinker. If an exogenous
| substance is that potent, it is a drug. (Even though I like it
| myself too, it is also pretty shit of a drug in my opinion, with
| 5 hr half-life, a dice roll every time whether it is gonna create
| more sleep than focus and a steep tolerance curve.) Magic
| mushrooms also have nutritional value, nicotine also has some
| benefits, beer has tons of calories, they might even have
| adaptive value with occasional use. You might enjoy them, you
| might drink coffee everyday. That is fine. But they are all drugs
| and not nutrients.
| ip26 wrote:
| _Can an exogenous molecule that was so adaptive be missed this
| bad and now consuming it will just fill that gap we had for
| millions of years?_
|
| Maybe we didn't have a gap for millions of years. The African
| kola nut contains caffeine and is supposedly a popular
| stimulant.
| acituan wrote:
| That was exactly my point. The molecule is not novel. It
| indeed existed and we had the opportunity to evolve with its
| ambient presence. If the laundry list of advantages were that
| important, it would have created selective pressure on those
| who didn't consume it. But it didn't prove itself as
| indispensable while other nutrients did; that's why they are
| nutrients and caffeine isn't.
| Mirioron wrote:
| We don't need (many) carbs either, yet it's the biggest
| part of our diet and has been for a long time. We still
| call it a nutrient.
| nootanond wrote:
| >It indeed existed and we had the opportunity to evolve
| with its ambient presence.
|
| It may exist in a number of plants all over the world but
| that doesn't mean that people were harvesting and using it
| outside of certain isolated cultures until fairly recently,
| compared to evolutionary timescales.
|
| If anything I'd expect significant genetic variation
| representing adaptations only present in some groups.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20859791/
| dehrmann wrote:
| > no analysis on downsides
|
| The main one has to be worse sleep quality.
| frant-hartm wrote:
| >a dice roll every time whether it is gonna create more sleep
| than focus
|
| This is highly individual. There are people who can go to sleep
| after drinking a cup of coffee, who feel sleepy after drinking
| small amount (how small actually varies) and then people like
| me that can go on for 5 more hours no matter how tired, even
| after being awake for more than 24 hr - there is no dice roll,
| works 100 %.
| eloff wrote:
| That you can sleep does not imply you get the same quality of
| sleep. It's well known that alcohol and caffeine reduce sleep
| quality. So even if you can sleep after having a coffee, it's
| probably still not a good idea. Have a decaf if it's after
| 3pm.
| johnfn wrote:
| > I can help but feel lied to when there is only a laundry list
| of "good"s and no analysis on downsides.
|
| Keep in mind that there's a strong selection bias here. We've
| been drinking coffee for hundreds of years. If over that time
| we had ever noticed it had any notable negative side effects,
| we would have relegated it to the very very long list of
| substances which are more of a mixed bag.
| tcbawo wrote:
| For many people, caffeine causes high blood pressure,
| anxiety, and in extreme cases heart arrythmia.
| nootanond wrote:
| In the short term over the duration of effect. I don't
| think I've ever seen a reliable study that demonstrated any
| reliable evidence of long term harm from coffee with any
| certainty.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| I think of it as a drug that adapts us to modern industrialized
| life, while our genetic dispositions are still half in the
| hunter/gatherer stage.
| 01100011 wrote:
| Sort of like nicotine. I don't think we would have made the
| transition to desk work as easily as we did without it. I'm
| pretty sure the US space program depended on it.
| joemazerino wrote:
| Coffee and caffeine are not mutually exclusive. Coffee is one of
| the best drinks for antioxidants (without milk). Caffeine in
| large quantities is bad for the health. Moderate and experiment.
| andy_ppp wrote:
| I love caffeine and coffee! I used to drink two to three cups per
| day but for the last 6 months I've been feeling rather unwell
| when taking it; I start getting sweaty hands, shakes, heart
| palpitations, and start feeling sick and anxious shortly
| afterwards. I would love to be able to keep drinking coffee but
| the price is now too high! I have been drinking decaf coffee
| which is okay but I miss the real thing. If anyone knows a way I
| scan keep my caffeine buzz without the above I'd love to know...
| ip26 wrote:
| Check your condition- are you getting enough sleep, food,
| water? Are you consuming it late in the day and reducing your
| sleep quality? What about your dose, has it grown?
|
| I experience the worst side effects when I've been fasting too
| long, or drink it late in the day.
| amelius wrote:
| Taurine, [1].
|
| Or eat a banana, [2].
|
| [1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-
| and-h...
|
| [2] https://www.hindustantimes.com/health-and-
| fitness/overcaffei...
| on_and_off wrote:
| have you tried mushroom coffee ?
|
| I don't suffer from the downsides of coffee so I don't even
| have anecdotal experience on this but it sounds like it is
| worth a shot.
| Honga wrote:
| Matcha tea has a bunch of stuff that is supposed to suppress
| the negatives of caffeine and keep the positives.
|
| Also the taste is strong enough to be a decent coffee
| replacement.
| dionian wrote:
| L-Theanine? goes great with coffee (not mixed, just taken
| near the same time) - smooths out the jitters. Probably why
| Tea is more 'calming'
| d33 wrote:
| Could you point to any research? I asked many doctors but
| nobody really knew about the substance nor could tell me
| whether it's safe to supplement.
| gjs278 wrote:
| that's because doctors are retards. it's safe. it's an
| amino acid. it's commonly mixed with caffeine. be your
| own doctor and look it up on examine.com
| bavell wrote:
| FWIW, 200mg of L-Theanine is included in my workout
| recovery supplement. Research seems sparse but here's
| what they say about it: (scroll down, click ingredients
| tab) https://athleanx.com/athleanrx/reconstruxion
| baxtr wrote:
| Anyone wondering: The summary is that Caffeine seems to be very
| good for your health! So keep on drinking
| amelius wrote:
| There is more in coffee than caffeine. For example cafestol is
| a substance present in unfiltered coffee that is known to cause
| health problems.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafestol
| mcnamaratw wrote:
| I like coffee. Let's skip the marketing words and look at the
| data.
| DabbyDabberson wrote:
| a "nootropic" in modern parlance
| mcculley wrote:
| I am impressed at the lengths people will go to rationalize
| consuming that to which they are addicted.
| standardUser wrote:
| I am an avid coffee drinker and a former cigarette smoker.
| While I won't deny that caffeine is addictive, the addictive
| power is so mild that it's mostly irrelevant. I skip having
| coffee on some days accidentally. The idea of accidentally
| going a day without smoking a cigarette is unfathomable. The
| times I've gone without coffee for a few days or weeks I have
| felt a little bit sluggish. The times I have gone days or weeks
| without smoking were nightmarish ordeals that consumed my every
| waking thought. Point being, I would be very careful to assume
| things about 'addiction' when it's a phenomenon comes in so
| many shapes and sizes.
| pengaru wrote:
| I'll match your single sample of anecdata as a previous
| smoker from the midwest and occasional coffee drinker:
|
| I never found nicotine addictive. It never compelled me to
| increase my consumption beyond a few cigarettes a day,
| usually in social settings. I never became a regular
| purchaser of cartons of cigarettes. It was purely a social
| activity as most my peers were smokers and participating in
| the smoke breaks was a huge part of socializing. But it never
| escalated beyond that, there was simply no draw and stopping
| cold-turkey was completely uneventful with zero physiological
| effects.
|
| Coffee however, has such a profoundly stimulating effect on
| me, it completely derails my life for days after a lone day
| of consumption. It's a very on-vs-off modal existence, and if
| I fall into the on mode for more than a couple contiguous
| days, I begin craving it and actively seeking it out. And
| when I manage to finally resist those cravings, I end up
| going through ~three days of hangover-like withdrawal hell
| which if I'm not up for enduring will just push me back on
| the wagon to make it stop.
|
| For me, coffee/caffeine is far more sinister and addictive
| than cigarettes.
| whyhow wrote:
| I think it is wrong to assume that something is inherently bad
| just because it is addictive.
| Jarmsy wrote:
| What definition of addiction are you going by? Most seem to
| include some mention of 'despite adverse effects' or similar.
| Otherwise isn't it just dependence?
| Barrin92 wrote:
| I think in particular with coffee there is if anything the
| opposite cultural bias. Being German, there's a popular Canon
| (loosely translated)
|
| _" don't drink coffee, coffee! The Turkish potion is not for
| kids, weakens the nerves, makes you pale and sick. Don't be a
| muselman (muslim, archaic), who can't do without it"_
|
| My almost 90 year old grandmother still talks like this about
| coffee and many people forget nowadays how bad of a reputation
| coffee had in the West until it got really popular, and despite
| not having many obvious bad health effects, and maybe even
| having positive ones.
| JanSt wrote:
| I'm german and I have never heard that. Coffee has a great
| reputation and pretty much everyone I know drinks it. It's
| more of a social stigma not to.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| that's surprising and I guess you're relatively young and
| don't have kids because I've actually still heard it sung
| by kids in kindergarden. There's also Bach's coffee Cantata
| in a similar vein, and quite a lot of fiction dictated to
| the allegedly detrimental effects of drinking coffee.
|
| And sadly often a lot of it is tied to the image of the
| "sickly Turk" which is a popular stereotype attached to
| most things imported from 'oriental' cultures. You may
| remember debates about the hookah craze a decade ago or so.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his
| morning cup of coffee depends upon his not understanding it.
| cc81 wrote:
| I don't know. I can feel a slight dependence on caffeine if I
| have been drinking a lot during some weeks and then stopping
| cold turkey (slight headache, possibly slightly more tired in a
| day or two) but it does not feel very addictive.
|
| For a long period of time I only drank coffee during the week
| and not weekends, sometimes I stopped some summers and when I
| slept badly I stopped drinking coffee for a while. No problem
| at all with any of that.
|
| I do like like the small energy burst in the morning when I'm
| working and I like the ritual when it is winter in Sweden it is
| dark and cold outside and you are freezing, then drinking a cup
| of coffee as you start up your computer is nice.
| JanSt wrote:
| I have cycled between heavy consumption and no coffee intake
| at all. On the first few days I often had headaches and felt
| slightly depressive (I'm pretty much never feeling depressive
| otherwise) and unproductive. After a week or so off of
| caffeine I start to feel great until I restart my coffee
| habit (the first few days are amazing; it just tastes too
| good; it is social to drink coffee with friends, family and
| coworkers; etc.)
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