[HN Gopher] Online Jamming and Concert Technology
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Online Jamming and Concert Technology
Author : borski
Score : 37 points
Date : 2020-05-25 06:51 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (online.stanford.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (online.stanford.edu)
| snthd wrote:
| Jamulus is another take on this. It's server based and uses lossy
| compression (opus). People host public servers and the software
| has a server browser.
|
| http://llcon.sourceforge.net/
|
| http://llcon.sourceforge.net/PerformingBandRehearsalsontheIn...
| robotmay wrote:
| I've used JamKazam (https://www.jamkazam.com) a few times
| recently to play folk music with some friends. The sort of music
| we play relies very heavily on listening to each other and
| improvising, and surprisingly it _just about_ works on JamKazam.
| It's certainly not perfect, but we're not going to be hanging out
| in pubs together any time soon.
|
| The important number is round-trip latency, and we found that
| around 25ms is good enough (we're all quite used to playing with
| people of varying time-keeping ability anyway). I think there's
| scope to improve on that using a library like Roc
| (https://github.com/roc-project/roc) where you can target a
| specific latency. I've been meaning to play around with it, but
| to be honest I'd rather be playing music :)
| ownedthx wrote:
| JamKazam founder here. Happy to come across a user!
|
| We see that too: 25ms one-way latency is the max to stay in
| sync, and that includes both internet + audio device
| encode/decode, which gets eaten up quite fast!
|
| We are looking at providing an _optional_ premium networking
| service to offer a faster connection as an alternative to the
| open internet. Nothing too expensive, like $10 /month is the
| goal. Hope that gets you and your friends under that magic
| threshold when it's available, if you try it out.
| [deleted]
| robotmay wrote:
| Forgot to add: I never came across JackTrip whilst researching
| options for this, so I'm quite keen to have a play with that.
| nanomonkey wrote:
| Any amount of latency seems like too much latency when jamming
| with others. I could see how this would work with audio engines
| like SuperCollider, but I'm curious how one goes about this for
| live recordings.
| somedudetbh wrote:
| Latency is kind of funny in the context of jamming. Sound only
| travels about a foot per millisecond. An orchestra pit is
| thirty or forty feet across. A big festival stage can be thirty
| feet across.
|
| So we have these pretty ordinary situations where there's about
| thirty milliseconds of latency between when a drumstick strikes
| a head and a guitar player hears it. Of course, in a modern
| live pop performance there's all the crazy monitoring and
| latency compensation to try to make a football stadium
| acoustically comprehensible, but there is still the physical
| reality of how people normally play music together.
|
| If I ping google.com from my house, on my crummy wifi, right
| now I'm getting about 10ms. This is roughtly the latency a
| guitar player experiences standing at the end of a 10 foot cord
| from their amp between their pick plucking a string and the
| resulting sound striking their eardrums.
|
| Reality has latency.
| smoe wrote:
| I was also thinking that keeping the latency constant across
| the group is much more important than keeping it as low as
| possible. Musicians could deal with 30ish ms delay once they
| get used to as they already do in situations you mentioned.
| Better than having it 10ms most of the time but with sudden
| drops for different players
| kitotik wrote:
| Orchestras are playing (primarily) composed and prewritten
| music where deviating from the script would imply a poor
| musician. They look to a single source (the conductor) for
| tempo and dynamic cues.
|
| "Jamming" is much more dynamic, and uses a combination of
| audio and visual cues to work.
|
| The problem with even fantastic network latency in the 10ms
| range is this gets multiplied by the number of participants,
| and quickly turns into a shitshow.
|
| The only approach I've seen that even sorta works is the
| approach ninjam took with a hard coded and pre determined
| latency. It's not the same as a real improv session with real
| humans in the room, and has obvious limitations, but can at
| least give a little of the same experience without the
| uncanny valley.
| teach wrote:
| Yes, but reality also has a lot of established patterns for
| minimizing that latency so people can play together live.
|
| Musicians in an orchestra pit or on a football field visually
| synchronize to a shared clock -- the conductor visibly
| keeping time. In a live setting, musicians use monitors (in-
| ear or wedges) that zip the sound of their bandmates to them
| via the speed of light.
|
| I've never seen virtual jamming over a network without a
| shared clock actually work, because once you get to 200ms
| round-trip it just doesn't work.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Have you seen it work well WITH a shared clock? Could you
| share details of the setup? Ty
| MintelIE wrote:
| A couple decades ago when virtual instruments started to become
| realistic on home computers, I did extensive testing and to my
| ear, anything over 8ms is too much delay. Obviously one would
| like no delay at all, but there is a point beyond which you can
| hear the delay and some folks will find that unacceptable.
|
| Your ISP and their ISP have a certain amount of delay or lag
| which can't be avoided, but it's possible to improve your delay
| on your own side of the cable / dsl / fiber modem by using
| Ethernet instead of Wifi. My Wifi router (a slightly older,
| last-model Apple unit) introduces about 10-12ms all by itself.
| savoyard wrote:
| We've been using JackTrip for a couple of years. I would
| recommend it to anyone looking into telematic performances.
| foobar_ wrote:
| You can use ninjam, reaper and audio hijack for audio syncing but
| video syncing seems problematic.
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