[HN Gopher] Ask HN: I'd like to learn vocals, any suggestion on ...
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Ask HN: I'd like to learn vocals, any suggestion on how I can do
this?
I'm thinking of paying a tutor online, but I'm curious about other
ways to go about it
Author : kevindeasis
Score : 114 points
Date : 2020-05-30 06:52 UTC (16 hours ago)
| BjoernKW wrote:
| Yes, getting a voice teacher is both the fastest and healthiest
| way to go about this.
|
| While there are plenty of resources available online and there
| are countless self-taught singers it's easy to acquire unhealthy
| habits, which in turn might also limit your progress and ability
| over time.
|
| Latency can be a problem with anything music-related in an online
| setting, though. Apart from that, singing is very much a physical
| activity and some feedback from your body might be missed due to
| limitations of the medium.
|
| Nevertheless, it certainly is a viable and tested approach (with
| many teachers and even well-known singers offering personal
| training online) and worth a try.
| mrxd wrote:
| Getting a voice teacher made a huge difference for me. I wouldn't
| have been able to make anywhere close to the same progress on my
| own.
|
| Having tried it, I think singing is poorly suited to self-
| learning. In my experience, vocal lessons are designed around
| identifying and overcoming problems and habits that are unique to
| each person. Identifying problems is done by ear or by observing
| subtleties in body posture, which require experience and
| training.
| glyphy17 wrote:
| Try calling it "singing" for starters.
| MrGando wrote:
| I've been playing Piano for ~28 years, almost went professional
| (Jazz) but ended up doing engineering. My advice would be to find
| a teacher, if you know nothing about it you need a teacher that
| corrects you so that you don't develop bad habits. Once you're no
| longer a novice, you can start learning other things on your own.
|
| When looking for a teacher, I wouldn't try to find "the best" or
| "most virtuoso" around, but what works for you. Try several
| teachers, get some sessions with 2-3 and find which one is the
| one that motivates you the most, and understands you the most. A
| teacher is like a coach and a partner in an adventure... the most
| important thing is that they can make you progress and keep you
| motivated.
|
| Good luck :)
| pen2l wrote:
| Where does one even begin to look for a teacher? Where do these
| guys publicize their services?
|
| For context, I'm an amateur guitarist with an interest in
| singing Sufjan Stevens songs.
| jimhefferon wrote:
| In addition to the other excellent suggestions, you can check
| in with the music department of a local college or
| university.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Ask local singers or musicians. They know, or they know those
| who know.
| 5555624 wrote:
| Check local churches. If they hae a good choir, the director
| might teach people or know of teachers in the area. (Growing
| up, my local church the director of the choir was a first
| tenor in the US Army chorus for 30 years.)
| CSSer wrote:
| Usually local music shops or chains that sell gear also
| employ or rent space to instructors. Qualifications can vary
| a lot, which is why I strongly support the suggestion others
| have made to try out multiple teachers.
|
| For lessons particularly, err on the side of thinking you're
| not the problem. You're paying hourly for this, and if you
| don't click with the teacher it could be fairly expensive to
| "make it work". Some people are also great artists but
| terrible instructors. That wouldn't be so bad if it weren't
| for the fact that they are also often completely ignorant of
| that fact.
| neltnerb wrote:
| I agree, I'd been singing a lot since I was 7, including
| touring Europe when I was 11. I didn't stop practicing at any
| point in there but also never had access to professional voice
| teachers because of the cost.
|
| Taking a single course in college that got me a little one-on-
| one attention (just one in a class of ten or so) improved my
| technique so significantly that I can compare recordings of
| myself from before and after that class and it's night and day.
| I don't think I'd have figured out what I was doing wrong
| without that attention, but they were able to hear it instantly
| and recommend solutions.
|
| And that's with a solid decade plus of experience in choirs
| prior to taking that class, it's not like I was a true novice.
| It's just really not as easy or obvious as it looks.
| xrd wrote:
| This is such a brilliant comment: "so you don't develop bad
| habits."
|
| I went to Japan as an exchange student when I was 16. I had
| never studied Japanese at all. The thing that surprised me the
| most was how hard it was for foreign students to unlearn the
| bad things they learned inside their American classrooms by
| listening to their friends.
|
| Most of them picked up bad pronunciations, bad grammar
| practices. Even if they were diligent (which is being generous
| for the high students they sent over with me), they would hear
| other students speaking in ways that made sense to them from
| their perspective of how English works. They would hear and
| repeat Japanese words in the bad pronunciation style their
| friends in class did, and those ways make sense. But, none of
| those practices were what Japanese people did.
|
| I often remark on how fortunate I felt to have only learned
| Japanese in a setting where I only heard correct pronunciation
| and heard statements made by natives. In three months I was
| ahead of others who had studied back in the US for two or three
| years or more.
|
| I would really love to see if anyone has studied this effect
| inside the world of software engineering. We pride ourselves in
| the hacker culture where self-directed learners are glamorized,
| but I wonder whether having good teachers and getting good
| feedback early on would make a large or small difference long
| term. This could be a startling alternative to the "naturally
| brilliant prodigy" stories we always hear.
| aczerepinski wrote:
| Get a teacher for sure so that you can learn to sing without
| damaging your vocal chords. I'm not a singer but my impression as
| an outsider is that opera singers are particularly likely to know
| the physical/anatomical concerns, since they learn to project
| without microphones.
| rednum wrote:
| Music is my life-long passion, and I took rock/pop singing
| lessons for some time so I feel I can relate to where you are and
| give some actionable advice.
|
| There is only one thing you can do: find a good teacher. You
| don't have experience related to singing, so you are not even
| able to diagnose what you are doing wrong and start working on
| it. You accidentally start pushing yourself into direction
| opposite to what you should be doing as I did at some point.
| Also, it's important to find a _good_ one: if a teacher suggests
| something, then you try it for a few weeks and nothing changes,
| then maybe it 's time to find another one. I'm not saying you can
| learn everything in a month, but you should at least notice
| something is changing and and understand what exactly you are
| working on. If the teacher can't explain what exactly you should
| improve (and how) other than "sound better" then likely it's not
| a good teacher. I cannot stress how important is finding the
| right teacher. Two lessons with right guy I found were much more
| effective than everything else I did beforehand for years
| (youtube tutorials, lessons with other people, trial and error).
| Don't try to be cheap: few weeks with someone who knows what they
| are doing can take you further than months with someone who
| doesn't (obviously I'm not saying that all good teachers are
| expensive and all cheap are bad. What I'm saying is that there is
| SO MUCH DIFFERENCE between an average and a great teacher that
| it's often worth paying for example twice as much). One more
| thing about teachers is try to get demos of their students and
| see if you like how they sing.
|
| Another piece of advice: get used to recording and listening to
| yourself. It's frustrating, but it's second best thing I did
| after finding a good teacher. I can't imagine making progress on
| singing without recording. And you can record yourself on a
| smartphone/laptop/whatever for practice purposes, no need to buy
| any audio equipment.
| mellosouls wrote:
| Whatever you end up doing wrt tutoring, prioritise _now_ your
| vocal health, and your singing (?) while you are young.
|
| https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/taking-care-your-voice
| rectang wrote:
| Depending on the style, this can be difficult. Human audiences
| respond to vocals which convey passion. A lot of times,
| passionate singing strains the voice.
|
| Singing judiciously limits you creatively in the short term.
| Singing passionately can limit you creatively in the long term,
| as you burn out your instrument.
| pougetj wrote:
| Plug for my friend's "start-up"/company that I've used to find
| online piano teachers to great success, but they also do vocals
| as well as many other instruments: ToneRow.com.
|
| She is a piano prof at Juilliard and I believe runs one of their
| startup/business courses, so she's put a lot of careful thought
| into this (but I'm sure would appreciate feedback).
|
| Disclosure: I am completely unaffiliated with her company, but
| have been using it during this period of SIP. If you have any
| questions or feedback about TR, feel free to reach out.
| zeroxfe wrote:
| You might enjoy this app I recently wrote: https://pitchy.ninja
| to assist you in your journey.
| swyx wrote:
| learn vocals _to do what_? what are your goals?
| wildrhythms wrote:
| Are you looking to improve in one area specifically? Placement?
| Range? Sight-singing ability? I agree with another commenter that
| a voice teacher will help get you started. I studied contemporary
| musical theatre in college, studied music and took classical
| voice lessons from a young age, and singing/harmonizing with a
| group was the most impactful on my own experience. Take a look at
| local colleges offering sight-singing and similar voice classes.
| downerending wrote:
| Personally, I just sing or hum along with music, and if there
| was one thing I could improve, it'd be the ability to sing in
| tune. I do the "finger in your ear" trick, but it's still quite
| difficult to hit a note right, or move between several without
| sounding like a trombone (glissando).
|
| I absolutely marvel at what pop singers can do with ornaments,
| seemingly hitting a whole series of notes in rapid succession,
| in tune. Maybe they're using an autotuner? :-(
| rectang wrote:
| Even if you have a good sense of pitch, melismatic singing
| may be beyond you. Very few people can sound good singing
| Stevie Wonder covers.
|
| For what it's worth, I've improved my ability to sing with
| accurate pitch, by imagining the pitch in my head before I
| sing it.
| MilnerRoute wrote:
| I was in choirs growing up, and the one thing any singing teacher
| will start you with is: learning how to breathe from your
| diaphragm.
|
| If you need a place to get started, you might just look for a few
| YouTube videos or tutorials about that. It gives you extra
| volumes of breath, so you can belt out the notes and hold them
| longer. Everything else follows from that.
| jariel wrote:
| Singing is not something that someone teaches you, it's just
| something you do because you're inspired to in the moment.
|
| You need to just sing. Sing along with your favourite songs, sing
| with heart.
|
| Then ... you may either want to get a bit of coaching, possibly
| sing with a choir.
|
| Most singers were really quite good before they had formal
| coaching, and many have never had any coaching at all.
|
| One of the more challenging things is pitch ... some people sing
| out of tune, have no idea, and it sounds bad. Oddly, this is
| something a 'voice coach' will have difficulty fixing. This tends
| to be something that people 'have' or they 'don't' - it can be
| learned surely, but it's oddly not a 'singing specific' issue.
| Playing around on a piano, singing the notes, trying to get them
| to match. So if you have a pitch problem, it will be a separate
| can of worms, but the more musical exposure you have, via
| anything, the better you'll get.
| ck425 wrote:
| This is bad advice. Pitch does seem to be something you have or
| not (research suggests most kids are pitch perfect and lose it
| to various extents) but the other parts of singing well are
| highly technical skills and a teacher will help significantly.
| Larynx placement, anchoring, muscle relaxation, breath
| control... etc are all difficult skills to master.
|
| There's a reason that so many pop/rock singers ruin their
| voices, it's because they don't get training.
| shams93 wrote:
| Get a tuner app like you'd use to tune guitar then try singing
| something and check how close is your C, using a tuner as a cheat
| can shave years of agony compared to guessing.
| JshWright wrote:
| I'm not sure I understand your suggestion. Are you saying that
| someone should be able to sing a particular note, with no other
| frame of reference? That's a fun parlor trick, but doesn't
| really benefit you when it comes to singing actual songs (where
| the pitch is all relative).
| im3w1l wrote:
| Yeah you should give yourself a reference, then after that
| sing various stuff and check how close you are.
| logram wrote:
| No, I think he means using the tuner to tell how well you
| sing intervals, etc. Find a center pitch, sing relative to
| that and keep track of how off you go from the correct notes.
| r83 wrote:
| Depends exactly what you want to do. As a singer/songwriter
| myself, I'd recommend checking Eric Arceneaux on youtube for some
| beginner lessons.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/user/EricArceneaux
|
| Start with the warmups, work on breath fundamentals, and sing for
| the love of singing :)
|
| A _good_ vocal coach in person is fantastic, but expensive.
| m_fayer wrote:
| Not the op, but say you're looking to pick up a minor hobby
| with the goal of being able to sing campfire/karoake basics
| such that it's a tolerable or maybe even pleasant experience
| for the audience. Inspiration being "not-pretty" talk-singing
| singer-songwriters - John Darnielle, Bill Callahan, Will
| Oldham, etc.
|
| Difficulty level: starting from utter scratch, middle-aged.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Part of it is ear training. GNU Solfege helps with that part.
| ck425 wrote:
| Find a teacher. Generally as a rule Classical/Lyrical/MT styles
| require more technique than Rock or Jazz (they require technique
| to not hurt themselves but the style aspect is personal and
| harder to teach) so I'd recommend getting a teacher who knows the
| former well.
| GSGBen wrote:
| Get regular Skype lessons with Kegan from
| https://www.bohemianvocalstudio.com. He also has YouTube videos
| up so you can get a taste for what he focuses on first. Don't
| worry if he doesn't sing in the exact style you want, because
| it's all about foundational principles. It's life-changing stuff.
|
| If that won't work for you and you're set on in-person lessons,
| try to find someone who was never a natural singer, and had to
| learn everything from scratch. They'll be able to pass on more
| than someone who started with a basic natural ability.
| scottmcf wrote:
| Agreed. I trained under an opera singer in college, which
| couldn't be further from the genres of music I play in, but the
| underlying principles of bel canto singing were transformative
| for me.
| jbms wrote:
| I personally got a lot of benefit from singing teachers who
| posted daily vocal warm-ups on Youtube that you can try and sing
| along to, and they tell you what to do and what not to do.
| Exercises to separately work on and develop your posture,
| airflow, vocal chord usage etc are useful as you can improve the
| individual parts. I'd never had any vocal training and am not
| trying to be amazing - just to improve and have some control and
| consistency. Some also post classes, where you can see them
| coaching others and learn from them.
|
| Particularly I'd mention Eric Arcenaux:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5hS7eukUbQ
|
| Listening to podcasts by performers about their daily routine
| might be useful if you want to know what they need to do to care
| for their voice in order to be able to perform daily.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| Eric also has Udemy courses:
|
| https://www.udemy.com/user/ericarceneaux/
| breakingcups wrote:
| There are a thousand different techniques to learn how to sing
| and many people stick to their "tribe". If you're smart, you'll
| look beyond whoever teaches you first and stay open to other
| techniques with different approaches or opinions. Stick with what
| feels good for your body. If your throat hurts, stop.
|
| Now, having said all that. I have had really positive experiences
| with a teacher who teaches CVT (Complete Vocal Technique). I'm
| sure a huge part of this was the individual teacher I found, but
| every lesson I walked away feeling like I had learned something
| new and had improved my technique. If there's a licensed CVT
| teacher near you, I'd highly recommend trying them.
| vthommeret wrote:
| I also highly recommend Complete Vocal Technique. It breaks
| down the voice in a unique way that I think particularly
| appeals to engineers and teaches you how to re-create any style
| safely by using correct vocal support, vowel choice, mouth
| position, etc...
|
| My vocal coach (Greg Delson) is incredible and teaches Complete
| Vocal Technique. He does online lessons, group lessons, etc...
| that are worth looking into:
|
| https://www.landlights.com/vocal-instruction
| https://www.instagram.com/landlights.music/
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