[HN Gopher] Chemical analysis and origin of the smell of line-dr...
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Chemical analysis and origin of the smell of line-dried laundry
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 129 points
Date : 2020-05-31 11:30 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.publish.csiro.au)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.publish.csiro.au)
| jungletime wrote:
| A frost would sometimes freeze the clothes stiff overnight. And
| dumb kid curiosity, if you licked the clothes you would get a
| faint taste of detergent.
|
| But the best small was fresh cut hay, sleeping on it in a barn
| amelius wrote:
| > But the best small was fresh cut hay, sleeping on it in a
| barn
|
| I always wonder why nobody sells fragrances based on it. And
| also on freshly cut grass. Or the scent one has after spending
| a day on the beach.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| https://www.perfume.com/demeter/demeter-fresh-hay/women-
| perf...
|
| https://demeterfragrance.com/grass.html
| [deleted]
| todd8 wrote:
| I wonder if the taste of detergent was present on the surface
| due to some differential process occurring during freezing that
| concentrated the detergent in the outer layer of frozen water?
| Hmm... probably not, but see [1] for how zone refining is used
| to concentrate chemical solutions through freezing.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_melting
| jgalt212 wrote:
| Sunlight is the best disinfectant. /s and !/s
| lukevp wrote:
| I can't remember a time I ever line dried laundry outside. How
| significant is this smell, is it worth changing my laundry drying
| habits just to reproduce it?
| Mary-Jane wrote:
| There's two things I remember about line drying from when I was
| a kid: * Clothes having a slightly "rubbery" smell (similar to
| if you open a box of old RCA cables) * The clothes were
| somewhat stiff. I remember enjoying "breaking the stiffness"
| off of them by shaking them around :D
| 1bc29b36f623ba8 wrote:
| Definitely. It affects then entire experience to such an extent
| that you want to go to bed early in order to lie between
| freshly dried sheets.
| griffinkelly wrote:
| As soon as the weather got nice out (from Chicago), my
| grandmother would immediately start drying clothes outside.
| marton78 wrote:
| Yes. Nothing beats it. Also, drying laundry electrically is a
| waste of resources, the sun will do it for free, as long as you
| live in a moderately warm country.
| tenpies wrote:
| I am always disappointed that drying racks aren't more common
| in NA. Even in an apartment, you can set it up overnight and
| wake up to dry clothing in the morning. Better for the
| environment and your clothing.
| dingaling wrote:
| Not so good for the apartment though, unless you have
| dehumidifying air conditioning.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| I have lived in socialist-era blocks which are notorious
| for humidity issues and mold. But a mere drying rack
| placed next to the window will not produce enough
| humidity to cause problems if you leave that window open.
| scatters wrote:
| Modern portable dehumidifiers are small, unobtrusive
| (about the size of a cereal box) and whisper quiet (they
| use Peltier cooling). Every house in a maritime climate
| should use them.
| draw_down wrote:
| Well, sure, I do this for my laundry that I don't want to
| be shrunk in the dryer. But this business of making it
| smell good, I don't understand. Air drying doesn't impart a
| smell at all.
| cortesoft wrote:
| I guess it is a matter of taste.. I really don't like the
| smell of line dried clothes, and I also don't like the
| feeling clothes have after being line dried.
|
| Probably because of what I grew up being used to.
| itronitron wrote:
| I personally can't stand the smell of line-dried laundry. It's
| not worth changing your habits to reproduce it.
| S_A_P wrote:
| I have done line drying and it ended up smelling not so great.
| Like someone who went outside on a hot day. I wonder if you
| need a low humidity environment for line drying to "work".
| jiofih wrote:
| You need sun the most. In most of the northern hemisphere it
| will only be viable for a couple months in the summer.
| RobinL wrote:
| I live just outside London and manage to line dry laundry
| for about 6 months a year (April to Octoberish).
|
| Save energy, smells better, and sunlight seems to result in
| better stain removal/whiter whites.
|
| It's a bit marginal in Apr and Oct but I line dry close to
| 100% of washes May to Sept. Even most days in winter if
| it's sunny it works pretty well.
| SECProto wrote:
| > In most of the northern hemisphere it will only be viable
| for a couple months in the summer.
|
| This is not correct. I've done line drying year-round,
| doesn't work great when it's below zero (freezes) but
| otherwise works fine. I think low relative humidity is
| important so the moisture in the clothing has somewhere to
| go.
| jiofih wrote:
| It works in low humidity, but it doesn't result in the
| same pleasant smell, as the paper explains.
| xnyan wrote:
| This has been my experience too. It's humid all year
| where I live, my clothes either 1)do not get dry or 2)
| spend so much time wet that a musty smell develops.
| jiofih wrote:
| For those downvoting me, you'd do good to read the paper
| which is the subject of this discussion.
|
| It clearly states that UV/sunlight exposure is crucial for
| the pleasant "dried linen" smell, and half of the northern
| hemisphere does not receive enough UV during winter (check
| any UV/vitamin D map).
|
| Personal anecdotes notwithstanding; I'm not saying clothes
| won't dry in the winter, you just won't get the same
| results.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| The Amish and many Mennonite communities in the US dry
| clothes outside all year. It's quite amusing to see their
| frozen sheets on lines if you take the train between
| Philadelphia and Harrisburg and further west to Pittsburgh.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| My sister in law doesn't own a dryer, and lives in New
| Hampshire. You can line dry all year long, at least at her
| lattitude.
| clomond wrote:
| The smell can be rather significant / roughly equivalent to
| what you get with a dryer with scented sheets at its strongest.
|
| I rather question how "nice" the smell actually is, at best
| it's "interesting and not bad" from my experience. I find that
| sometimes line dryer laundry can pick up a "clumpy", rougher
| but yet distinctively line dried texture when compared to the
| machine or hang dried inside.
| itronitron wrote:
| Also, a normal drier pulls out a lot of the fabric lint so if
| you line dry a lot the clothes will accumulate lint and that
| adds to the weird rougher texture.
| SECProto wrote:
| I think it's worth trying if you have the availability
| (somewhere to set up a line or a rack, and low-ish relative
| humidity helps them dry quickly).
|
| As for whether it's worth changing your habits: that's up to
| you. Give it a try, see how they smell, consider the lower
| environmental impact of line drying, consider the lower wear-
| and-tear on your clothes (tumble drying wears clothes out
| faster), and make a decision!
| derefr wrote:
| I wonder whether the manufacturer of some existing artificial
| "fresh breeze" scent happened to already stumble upon a formula
| that closely approximates the chemical composition of the real
| thing, without knowing it. Do e.g. (scented) detergents contain
| these particular hydrocarbons? Does any air freshener?
|
| Also: is there any knowledge of these compounds' effects on the
| human body? Are they GRAS? I can imagine an evolutionary just-so
| story where our bodies like the scent because it tells us that
| whatever's emitting the smell has, essentially, been UV-
| disinfected. But that doesn't mean that breathing the scent
| volatiles themselves is good for us. Humans think all sorts of
| bad-for-us things smell/taste good, like ozone or antifreeze.
| jasonv wrote:
| Oh, that's where the name comes from.
|
| I hang dry most of my laundry in my own house still. I learned
| to appreciate this after moving from a big city to a town of 13
| people. Of course we all had lots of space but my house had one
| of those circular drying line contraptions. I enjoyed going out
| and hanging my laundry, even in the cold winters. Even in the
| snow. The sun and dry air did their thing pretty quickly.
|
| When I lived in Amsterdam my apartment came with a new combo
| washer/dryer unit. As far as I could tell, it mostly succeeded
| in compressing the laundry into a really tight, nearly
| inextricable ball.
|
| In tighter quarters having lots of laundry drying between
| apartments could be seen as less desirable. There are solutions
| for that too. But the noise and dirt of lint coming from drying
| machines is a counter factor to consider.
| NoSorryCannot wrote:
| And the smell of tumble drying. I live in an apartment
| complex and the smell coming out of the dryer vents is
| overwhelming. It's not intrinsic; there would barely be any
| odor at all if people gave up dryer sheets and fabric
| softener, but it seems like many have never heard anything so
| outlandish as that.
| nitrogen wrote:
| I spent a couple years living in high density highrises
| (putting my YIMBY money where my mouth is, I guess) and the
| laundry exhaust (and other ventilation problems) traveling
| into my apartment made the air nigh unbreathable.
| wrp wrote:
| That's an issue with houses, too. When my neighbor dries
| clothes, I have to keep my windows closed. Really annoying
| in hot weather when I need the ventilation.
| Animats wrote:
| UV triggers the reaction. So, driers need a strong UV source.
| There are some small UV driers, and sterilizers. Full-sized
| clothes driers with a strong UV source, not yet.
| joyj2nd wrote:
| A UV dryer? You must be dreaming. Besides that it would bleach
| the clothes (what may be beneficial to WHITE but ONLY to white
| clothes), I would be skeptical about aging of the fibres. UV
| light is a bitch.
|
| But I have heard about Japanese laundry machines using
| ultrasonic sound.
| hatsunearu wrote:
| well, the sun tends to fuck up the clothes as well, and the
| sun definitely has UV.
| Animats wrote:
| Not UV for the whole job, UV in addition to hot air and
| tumbling.
| throw0101a wrote:
| In Ontario, Canada, some condo boards for town house developments
| (like home-owner associations) didn't like people putting up
| laundry lines and so prevented them since backyards were
| considered "common elements" and under group jurisdiction.
|
| So the provincial government had an existing law that prevented
| the use of "renewable energy" systems from being blocked by local
| by-laws and such. So they classified clothes lines as a renewable
| energy system so people could use "solar power" to dry their
| clothes as a energy conservation mechanism.
|
| > _" There's a whole generation of kids growing up today who
| think a clothesline is a wrestling move," [Premier] McGuinty said
| during his announcement._
|
| * https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-premier-lifts-outdoor-clo...
|
| The current Ford government repealed the law that allowed for
| this, so I'm not sure what the legal status is now exactly.
| stormdennis wrote:
| We once rented a flat, in a nice building housing mainly
| retired people. One day we gave the place a good cleaning and
| hung out a mat to dry on the balcony. Within half an hour the
| residents association which we didn't know existed were
| knocking on our door and demanding we take in the offending
| item.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| I will never until my dying day, live under the thumb of an
| association. Its a magnet for pedantic busybodies.
| sturgill wrote:
| Which is also why I lean towards libertarianism...
| monadic2 wrote:
| As someone without a hope in the world for owning a house any
| time soon, what kind of teeth do these associations actually
| have to enforce their whims?
| anewdirection wrote:
| It depends. Unless membership is optional, I would consider
| it a lesser value home. Which is ironic given its intended
| function is to (possibly) keep one asshole from ruining
| property values, in exchange for a different set of
| assholes (possibly) destroying value in another way.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Exactly.
|
| HOAs sound crappy but they're better than living next to
| assholes/slobs when you have zero recourse. HOA is really
| the only entity that will care about assholes. The
| problem with buying a home is that you don't know what
| your neighbors are like ahead of time.
| sukilot wrote:
| The history of government is trying to trade out
| different sets of assholes. It's a hard problem.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| If in the US, in some states even up until foreclosure.
| jbuzbee wrote:
| As part of the purchase, you are given the deed
| restrictions and you contractually agree in the closing
| process to follow them. We once backed out of a purchase
| when we read the overly strict restrictions.
|
| You also contractually agree that the association has the
| ability to fine you for violations and put a lien on your
| property if you don't pay. There are plusses and minuses.
| The minuses are obvious - PITA, picky busybodies, limited
| paint colors, landscaping restrictions, etc. The plusses
| are that in general, the whole neighborhood is typically
| better maintained - paint, lawn, general upkeep, etc. which
| affects your property value.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Can't you buy from the owner and not sign the contract
| with the HOA? Presumably the HOA has a contractual
| grievance with the prior-owner; or are such HOA contracts
| enshrined in criminal law?
| jbuzbee wrote:
| My guess is that the restriction is already on the
| existing deed, originating with the first sale from the
| builder of the community. So it transfers with the
| property.
| sojournerc wrote:
| Depends on the HOA's, which I would avoid at all costs.
| jrockway wrote:
| When I was in high school my family lived in a housing
| development that was designed to be somewhat environmentally
| friendly -- houses were small, the development was largely open
| prairies, people did not have lawns, etc. Of course, someone
| decided to line-dry their clothes, and the HOA told them to
| stop. I guess the environment is all fine and nice until you
| have to see someone's underwear in their backyard.
|
| (I believe that the people told to stop made a big stink about
| it and had the rules changed. So common sense did prevail. But
| no doubt plenty of people are producing CO2 to dry their
| clothes right now because someone thinks that drying clothes
| outdoors reduces their property value.)
| bonoboTP wrote:
| I have a similar clause in my rent contract in Germany,
| forbidding line drying, and first I didn't really understand
| why people care about this (I planned to use the communal dryer
| anyway).
|
| But to be explicit, it's because the optics of visible laundry
| makes people associate to poor people who have no other drying
| options. They don't want the neighborhood to look like poor
| neighborhoods.
|
| Maybe it will become one of those environment-conscious hip
| modern things and then they will start allowing it again...
| fiblye wrote:
| Meanwhile, living in Japan, if you tell people you prefer to
| machine dry your clothes, they'll tell you outright that it's
| wasteful. The assumption is that it's only used when rain
| makes it impossible.
| mstade wrote:
| On the Swedish west coast where it's often windy and sunny
| we typically line dry our laundry. We do have a machine
| dryer, but it's typically only really used when there's too
| much humidity in the air (which doesn't happen often) or
| it's raining. Line drying typically yields better and more
| even results in my experience, especially when it's breezy.
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| In Spain the attitude is similar, but for different
| reasons.
|
| Environmental consciousness is sadly low in general, but
| cult to fashion and looks is strong. Machine drying
| anything but towels and sheets would be considered shabby
| by most, as it damages clothes.
|
| When I was looking for housing, I visited some really
| luxury apartments (that I could never afford, but visiting
| is free and I'm a curious person, so why not) and having a
| good place to line dry clothes was always seen as a
| boasting point, never associated to poverty in the
| slightest.
| exceptione wrote:
| I guess that you still centrifuge clothes, but do not
| tumble-dry them?
| slim wrote:
| yes
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| > Machine drying anything but towels and sheets would be
| considered shabby by most, as it damages clothes.
|
| So does UV light.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| But less.
| throw0101a wrote:
| Depending on the clothing item, turning it inside-out may
| help (e.g., reduce colour fade).
| dahdum wrote:
| Most of the dryers I've seen there didn't have external
| vents, and were often combined with the washer. They were
| _really_ lousy at drying. Do you think that 's part of it?
| kaybe wrote:
| Another reason is that if you do it inside your flat (which
| many people do in Germany) and then do not open your windows
| enough there will be mold. Especially in winter this can be a
| problem.
| throw0101a wrote:
| You'll probably get as much moisture in the air from a hot
| shower or boiling a bunch of pasta.
|
| Regardless of the source of moisture, this is a sign of
| poor construction via not using proper building science.
| The vapour barrier needs to be on the warm side of the
| insulation so there are no cold spots where condensation
| can occur.
| tikej wrote:
| It's not true. If building has any reasonable ventilation
| (and it must have one in order to pass inspection and
| norms) it should has at least 3-4 air exchanges per hour.
| So drying inside wouldn't make that much of a difference to
| cause mold by itself. It may be different if ventilation
| system is not functioning properly but in that case it
| should be fixed anyway.
| majewsky wrote:
| Are you refering to German building codes here? Most
| German apartments that I know have no active ventilation
| system except in the bathroom and maybe the kitchen.
| clarry wrote:
| That can happen (look out for dew on windows), but usually
| the heating season leads to the air being too dry. That's
| uncomfortable and can e.g. damage wooden instruments.
| karatestomp wrote:
| Banning line drying is the kind of thing you do when you're
| afraid your neighborhood _might be mistaken for poor_ if
| there are a few backyard clotheslines. It 's a middle-class
| class anxiety thing.
| morsch wrote:
| Not that you claimed anything else but: A bit less than half
| of all households in Germany have a dryer[1], air drying is
| very common. Your landlord cannot prevent you from drying
| clothes within your flat, any terms to that end in your lease
| are void ([2], IANAL).
|
| [1] https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-
| Umwelt/Einkom... still more than I expected
|
| [2] https://www.mieterbund.de/index.php?id=597
| WalterBright wrote:
| When I lived in Arizona, I'd take the clothes out of the washer,
| step outside, and put them on the line. When I finished pinning
| them up, I'd return to the beginning of the line and take them
| down, perfectly dry and fresh.
|
| Who needs a dryer :-)
| wrp wrote:
| It really depends on the humidity. In tropical weather, I would
| hang up clothes in the morning and they would still be damp in
| the evening.
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| I think it depends on where you live. Here in Chicago, if you
| leave wet clothes out to dry on the line, they'll stink of
| geosmin (to which the human olfactory receptors are insanely
| sensitive, to the tune of being able to detect a few parts per
| million) rather than smell nice and fresh thanks to the humidity.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| https://microbiologysociety.org/publication/past-issues/soil...
|
| Sounds like geosmin is the smell of earth, which to me is a
| fine smell. Perhaps you're a city dweller that's just not
| acclimated to natural smells??
|
| Mind you I hate the over-perfumed smell of heavy clothes
| detergents, so I'm probably peculiar in my scent-life.
| beervirus wrote:
| Why is that chemical so prevalent in Chicago?
| sukilot wrote:
| Great Lakes
|
| https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-
| xpm-1994-11-20-941120...
| pengaru wrote:
| Not OP but Chicago was built on marshland which I suspect
| plays a part.
|
| https://gizmodo.com/chicago-was-raised-more-than-4-feet-
| in-t...
| brudgers wrote:
| Related popular article,
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/science/laundry-smell-lin...
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.md/mwSGw
| greatgib wrote:
| Awesome research in an unexpected field! I fucking love science!
| mocar wrote:
| Would it work if I installed a UV light in my dryer?
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