[HN Gopher] Sonder: E-Ink Keyboard
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Sonder: E-Ink Keyboard
Author : tosh
Score : 107 points
Date : 2020-05-31 15:57 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (sonderdesign.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (sonderdesign.com)
| beyondcompute wrote:
| Great concept but to me does not make that much sense. Because
| there are no extra keys. So what is the point of having re-
| programmable keys if you'll have to reprogram the keys that you
| are already using? Function keys are not so useful as they are
| too far away from main typing area (at least for me). An extra
| vertical row of keys on the left however would be great. I would
| order such a keyboard. (Currently I am using an International
| English one and there's an extra key, SS which I re-programmed
| with different modifiers for several functions. A whole row of
| extra keys would be just amazing!)
| yosito wrote:
| I see lots of people commenting that this sort of keyboard is a
| gimmick because it's a waste of time to look at keys while you
| type. As a programmer, I get that logic. But there are times when
| I would 100% love a keyboard that could allow me to use different
| key layouts and visually see the layout. The first use-case for
| me is when switching language layouts. I'm tri-lingual and use
| different keyboard layouts to be able to type characters in other
| languages. But every time I switch languages, I forget where the
| punctuation and other symbol keys have moved to. It's a pain in
| the ass to have to switch layouts just because I can't remember
| where a question mark or a curly bracket is in the language I'm
| using. Second, occasionally do design and video editing on the
| side. Not often enough to memorize keyboard shortcuts like I do
| with programming. But especially with video editing, if you're
| not using keyboard shortcuts and hunting through menus instead,
| the work is extremely slowed down. Lastly, games. I game from
| time to time, but each game I play has different controls mapped
| to the keyboard. I can't usually remember more than 4 or 5
| controls for the duration of a gaming session, so being able to
| see what's what would make my gaming experience much more
| enjoyable.
|
| All that being said, I'm not holding my breath for this keyboard.
| The design isn't polished enough, I doubt software support for my
| use cases will be common any time soon, and I just don't see
| hundreds of little screens being cost effective or reliable
| hardware. I hope I'm wrong though.
| amelius wrote:
| As a programmer, I'd like a keyboard with "l" and "-" keys
| beside the usual qwerty keys.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Enable the Compose key, then it's just Compose - > for -.
|
| I don't know lambda offhand, but it's possible to define
| extra mappings if it isn't there by default.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
| ferzul wrote:
| but the rules constantly change and at least sometimes
| require root access - painful when you do that upgrade and
| now you can't type
| onyva wrote:
| Totally agree. I'm used to typing Hebrew and lately Arabic
| blindly on a USA keyboard but sometimes I get stuck and it
| helps to have a quick look. Problem is I'm mostly in Emacs and
| with its very own inputs it's not going to help much, unless
| it's programmable...
| shultays wrote:
| You can just launch on screen keyboard or search for an image
| of your keyboard layout. The shortcuts info would be a bit more
| useful but the keyboard needs to support it on the first place
| tobeportable wrote:
| You should 100% have a look at text-expansion tools e.g.
| espanso with https://hub.espanso.org/packages/french-accents/.
|
| The general idea is that you would type something like :e' to
| type out e. This allows you to use a single keyboard layout
| across languages.
| ferzul wrote:
| which is helpful if the three languages are russian, english
| and japanese
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Plus I can totally see plenty of applications for it:
|
| - fn keys that show what mode you are in. I never know if I'm
| going to hit F3 or "sound up".
|
| - locking keys: is uppercase is locked or not? Am I at one
| press for ` ? Have I triggered ^ ?
|
| - show special char combinations: press alt-gr, and the
| keyboard show you the signs like EUR, $? or | that you can
| enter.
|
| - per app shortcut displays: imagine, you click ctrl + and all
| other keys change to show what they can do.
|
| - game shortcuts: when you launch it wasd become arrows, shift
| become jump, etc
| afandian wrote:
| This is what the Macbook touchbar is for (with, granted, no
| tactility). And, to put it mildly, it divides opinion. I
| really miss my muscle memory for media keys on my mac.
| masklinn wrote:
| The problem of the touchbar is that it has no tactile
| feeling and literally no allowance for muscle memory. It
| lets you see what mode your in, but it also requires that
| you look at it.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Well, exactly--this is what Apple was going for with the
| touchbar, except that Apple neglected to complete the
| circle. Apple expected users to give up tactility in
| exchange for contextual information; in reality, most
| laptop users were unhappy with the trade.
|
| This keyboard does both.
| rbanffy wrote:
| If the touchbar had the same haptic feedback the trackpad
| has, it'd be awesome.
|
| When people are told the trackpad doesn't move when it's
| pressed - that it isn't "clicking" in the sense you are not
| pressing a switch - the first reaction is incredulity.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| The Macbook touchbar is a good concept. The implementation
| is terrible
|
| You should keep the tactile feedback, and the default keys,
| only enhance on that.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| Don't know which module they are using, but you won't get
| partial refresh timers faster than 0.3 seconds, and full
| refresh timers faster than 2 seconds.
| Stratoscope wrote:
| Does anyone remember the Samsung Alias 2? It was a dual-hinge
| flip phone with e-ink keys. When you flipped it open in portrait
| mode, the keys would display a number pad, and if you opened it
| in landscape mode the key labels changed to a QWERTY layout.
|
| Photos:
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=samsung+alias+2&tbm=isch
|
| Details:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_U750_Alias_2
| a-wu wrote:
| I had both the Alias and Alias 2. I absolutely loved the Alias
| because it was so great for texting. The Alias 2 was a cool
| idea but I felt that the e-ink key refresh was too slow and the
| keys were mushy.
| [deleted]
| mangecoeur wrote:
| Cheaper than Apple's magic keyboard who's gimmick is... magnets!
| >_<
| missosoup wrote:
| That keyboard has been 'available soon' on the sonder site for at
| least 4 years now. Going to go ahead and call vaporware.
| radarsat1 wrote:
| I just want to be able to use emacs with an e-ink display... any
| little machines out there for that?
| freekh wrote:
| I do that (via termux) with a onyx max boox 3. Works pretty
| well. I had some quality issues (got 2 dead lines on 2 devices
| so far) with the actual device but support has been very, very
| supportive so far so globally I'm very happy
| Y_Y wrote:
| You can put ssh on a jailbroken kindle
| radarsat1 wrote:
| I thought about that, is it possible to use it with a
| bluetooth keyboard?
| fortran77 wrote:
| I'd love a full travel keyboard. I'm not sure "Keyboard
| Enthusiasts" want a Mac style keyboard.
|
| While I don't often need to look at keys when doing normal
| typing, I still do when programming APL. And I never remember the
| keys when using After Effects / Premiere. Having programmable
| caps would be nice.
| TheRealPomax wrote:
| And here I was hoping it was a normal keyboard, with eink key
| caps. Instead it's what looks like the worst possible design for
| implementing a solidly obvious idea.
|
| (I still don't know why people tried this with LED screen keycaps
| instead of doing eink first, and then were surprised a $250, one-
| trick keyboard didn't fly off the shelves)
| jarfil wrote:
| Eink used to be expensive, have slow refresh rates, and no
| color. OLED screens on the other hand have vibrant colors and
| can show videos. The concept of OLED keycaps is still superior,
| but it needs to be realized much better and much cheaper to be
| a top seller.
| emsy wrote:
| The problem is that unlike a phone or a tv these will
| probably be on for the whole workday, so 8h+ with little
| change to what is displayed and probably at a high contrast.
| The burn in will probably be an issue.
| teraflop wrote:
| That's an easily solvable problem -- just have each
| individual key label bounce around the keycap like a DVD
| player screensaver.
| Twirrim wrote:
| The form factor of this and the Apple Magic keyboard are just
| an ergonomic nightmare.
|
| I have a strong preference for natural / split keyboards, but
| I'm perfectly content with typing on normal keyboards if that's
| all that is available. It might take me weeks or months of
| typing on a standard keyboard before I start to get the aches
| going in my wrists. I lasted barely half a day with a 2015/2016
| era Magic keyboard before my wrists started hurting like sweet
| merry hell. It's far too cramped, forcing the wrists and arms
| at weird angles, even with the keyboard out at full arm's
| length. (I find the Magic Mouse to be similarly absurd from an
| ergonomic perspective. Shape was fine, but having to arch a
| finger to use it is crazy, and similarly bad for RSI)
|
| I was really curious to see what the offering was here, but,
| ignoring price, this is just such a terrible, gimmicky choice
| of form factor. They immediately eliminate a sizeable potential
| market by choosing this one.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| $250 is a perfectly acceptable price for the keyboard
| enthusiast space; but that's not a massive market compared to
| regular keyboards.
| Gravityloss wrote:
| Great, finally programming languages can expect even beginners to
| keep typing characters like [?] with little difficulty. Your
| editor plugin will also include keyboard customization.
| easytiger wrote:
| It's a scam and has been around for years
| jrockway wrote:
| Their website won't load, but it looks like they've been working
| on a prototype of a keyboard that has e-ink displays on each
| switch since around 2016.
|
| This has been attempted before:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard but with
| LCDs (or maybe they were OLEDs, since all the reviewers complain
| about burn-in). The reviews were overwhelmingly negative and you
| can pick one up cheap used because nobody wants them.
|
| Overall, I find these designs awfully expensive on many fronts.
| Looking at the keyboard is a huge productivity sink, and if you
| stop looking at the keyboard, you won't care what the legends
| look like. And, having 101 screens attached to your keyboard is
| pretty costly compared to having 0 screens. I think these make
| for a good conversation piece, but I'm not sure you'd prefer
| typing on them to a keyboard with a better layout and better
| switches. And if you want a macro pad, just get a stream deck,
| which you can buy with same-day shipping instead of crowdfunding
| it. (Or just build your own. There are tons of kits out there
| that cost on the order of $10. No per-key screens though.)
| jarfil wrote:
| My optimal keyboard would have: mechanical switches, per-key
| RGB LEDs, MX keycaps with translucent borders to see the LED
| lights ("pudding" style), per-key legends that would change
| with the keyboard language and layers.
|
| I only want to be able to look at the keyboard when I'm not
| familiar with the layout, but I want to be able to do that.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| I could see them being useful for keyboard designs with very
| few keys, like https://olkb.com/collections/planck.
|
| If you have deeply-nested layers, having some way to identify
| what state your keyboard is in can be helpful. Having screens
| instead of LEDs is definitely an expensive luxury, though.
| _nhynes wrote:
| That's an interesting idea, actually. A keyboard that could
| visually identify state might be useful for education: say a
| typing or Vim tutor. It'd be kind of nifty if a key started
| flashing so that you could identify its location (for
| learning a layout), or had a little icon suggesting "insert"
| or whatever command it triggers. T'would be an expensive
| teaching tool, though.
| masklinn wrote:
| Art.lebedev had full-size keyboards, as well as smaller pads
| with 3, 6 or 15 keys.
| jrockway wrote:
| True. Personally I have 3 LEDs on my keyboard that I use to
| show the current layer (in binary). I then carefully numbered
| my layers so that I use 0, 1, 2, and 4 in preference to
| others ;)
| adrianmonk wrote:
| > _having 101 screens attached to your keyboard is pretty
| costly_
|
| I wonder if it would be somehow feasible to cut costs by using
| a projection scheme.
|
| Perhaps each key could be essentially passive rear projector
| screen, then you'd have a system of mirrors, lenses, prisms, or
| whatever below the keys so that one DLP or other projection
| system could hit all the keys.
|
| Maybe having 1 active component and 101 passive components
| (hopefully all plastic) would make the whole thing a lot
| cheaper.
|
| Of course, there would be the small matter of building it so
| the geometry works out where you can have the image hit the key
| and also have a switch and spring beneath it.
| [deleted]
| elric wrote:
| Reminds me of that OLED keyboard ... Optimus I believe it was
| called ... I wonder if anything ever came of that, or if it's
| still vaporware.
| notatoad wrote:
| it was a real product. possibly still is. IIRC it was over
| $1000 by the time they released it, and it wasn't a very good
| keyboard.
|
| the much cooler thing that came out of that project was the
| "mini 3": https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/mini-three/
|
| (side note - their website has possibly the best cookie
| disclosure on the internet)
| masklinn wrote:
| The Mini 3 was basically the original demo of the concept.
|
| The studio then released the full-size Maximus for $2068
| using an OLED per key.
|
| They later released the Popularis, originally intended as a
| cheaper sub-$1000 model using a single large OLED for all
| keys. They did end up releasing it but with various
| additional tradeoffs (a "compact" keyboard without a numpad)
| and at a fairly expensive $1086.
|
| Concurrently, they released cut-down keypads with 6 and 15
| keys, also at fairly expensive $376 and $534.
| nihilazo wrote:
| I believe it got a limited release, was pretty awful to
| actually use, and got very quickly discontinued. Although I may
| be wrong.
| lallysingh wrote:
| The keys were too large and hard to push.
| WhatIsDukkha wrote:
| This is kind of cool but I think has the same problem (though
| does it better) then the apple function bar thing.
|
| I don't want to look at my hands as I'm working, I want to look
| at what I'm doing.
|
| Icons on keys also force me to lift my hands from the homerow as
| 80% of them are obscured by your hand positions.
|
| The value of having the shortcuts on the keys isn't very high
| compared to a higher quality keyboard and onscreen cheatsheet if
| needed.
| plerpin wrote:
| Professional applications, e.g. video nonlinear editing, have a
| huge number of shortcut keys. You can buy entire keyboards with
| colored key caps that are labeled with shortcuts for a single
| application like Final Cut Pro.
|
| Would be great for that.
| dang wrote:
| See also:
|
| 2016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12830307
|
| 2015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9809906
|
| and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9688646
| andrepd wrote:
| Such a cool idea wasted in copying a trash design... Pity. Apple
| keyboards are the worst in several aspects.
| wishinghand wrote:
| Apparently there's some debate whether or not this is a real
| product, but if it is, I'd love this in a compact keyboard form
| like a Kyria, Lily58, or Corne. Those keyboards are less than 60
| keys so they require layers to get at what doesn't fit on the
| default layout.
|
| This sounds like a hassle but ergonomically it's very good! Your
| fingers travel and stretch less this way. Someone asked me if I
| type as fast or faster with my Ergodox. I told them I don't
| measure but that's not even the biggest feature, but the fact
| that I'm not moving my whole hand up to the number row for digits
| and symbols.
|
| The downside to this is that layers are deeply personal and
| changing them can bring some friction as a user re-learns the
| layout. I've resorted to screenshotting and printing my layers at
| times when I try a new paradigm. Having dynamic key labels would
| be a godsend for this sort of keyboard-user relationship.
| nihilazo wrote:
| the website doesn't even work for me but I looked up some images,
| and even if this thing actually exists and isn't vaporware, it
| looks like a truly bad keyboard. All the things that actually
| matter in a keyboard (key feel, travel, ergonomics) are all
| things this design gets dead wrong. It seems mostly modelled
| after the apple mac keyboard (which has awful key feel and even
| worse ergonomics) and to be incredibly short-travel. The design
| also seems to have no respect at all for any ergonomics
| improvements made to keyboards in the past 20 years.
|
| Also, anybody buying a high-end keyboard will probably be able to
| touch type anyway, so what is the point of this product even?
| When you're using a computer, you're looking at your display, not
| your keyboard.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| It's really unfortunate to see how tightly product designers
| hold on to the traditional staggered-typewriter layout.
|
| People tend to believe that more esoteric designs won't sell,
| but the $300+ model01 I'm typing this comment with begs to
| differ. It seems to me like they are targeting the wrong
| market.
| uncletaco wrote:
| My ergodox, lily58, atreus, and soon sofle also beg to
| differ.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Sofle looks nice. I really like the idea of having dials
| on-board.
|
| The only thing I would miss is the thumb-cluster design of
| the Model01. Having thumb keys a little farther to the
| side, and having a thumb-knuckle key is really comfortable.
|
| The extra portability of the lily58/sofle design would be
| nice, though.
| fortran77 wrote:
| It's meant for Mac users, not "Keyboard Nerds". I can't imagine
| there's a market. Mac users want to use a proper Apple product.
| They'd still use the hockey-puck mouse if Apple still bundled
| them with the iMac.
| bb88 wrote:
| Yeah, I felt saddened to see the command, ctrl, alt keys were
| not programmable.
|
| I get people wanting to design only for the apple devices,
| but frankly I find lately that I enjoy less branding on my
| devices/clothing/etc in general, and that includes the
| windows keys on my laptops.
| moron4hire wrote:
| This reddit poster is not very encouraging
| https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/ae8x4u/eink_keyb...
| fermienrico wrote:
| This whole thing sounds like scam. I don't think this keyboard
| is possible to make at $199. Every piece of eink display under
| the cap costs a few bucks. Then you need insane custom
| switching board to multiplex all these displays with SPI lines.
| Probably needs an FPGA to do it fast and reliably. The raw BOM
| cost alone will be $100 or more.
|
| Fabbing a custom size eink display will cost $200K in tooling +
| R&D if only they could find a fab that is willing to do sub
| 100k MOQ orders. Otherwise, it is upwards of $500k. The thing
| is, no other customer will ever buy a 12x12mm eink display
| since it is too small to do anything useful, so the eink
| display manf cannot ammortize the cost of a new line spin up
| and tooling. It has to be captured and it will be costly.
| masklinn wrote:
| > This whole thing sounds like scam. I don't think this
| keyboard is possible to make at $199. Every piece of eink
| display under the cap costs a few bucks.
|
| It would most likely have a single large display, like the
| Optimus Popularis. Uglier and less convenient, but way the
| hell cheaper.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| You still pay through your nose for large eInk displays
| though. I don't get what the fuck makes them so
| expensive... probably patent issues.
| bransonf wrote:
| I'd guess low demand as well. Compared to any other type
| of screen, eInk is extremely niche. E-Readers and some
| mass produced wearables (Pebble) made it work, but even
| those had a fairly small market.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Pebble wasn't eink, weirdly enough; it was a "Sharp
| Memory transflective LCD" (which did have very similar
| properties, granted).
| Palomides wrote:
| assuming this will ever be real:
|
| based on similar products that use LCDs, it won't have 60+
| displays, it will use a single large display, and the
| switches will basically activate a touch screen.
| cordite wrote:
| I'd like this but with the typematrix layout, which is
| ortholinear and with enter and backspace in the center.
| orliesaurus wrote:
| What's the point of Eink on a keyboard? Anyone stare at their
| keyboard for hours at a time? Isn't Eink is supposed to help you
| read without screen fatigue?
|
| Why not make Eink spoons and forks next? /sarcasm
| packet_nerd wrote:
| Learning to type in a new language maybe?
|
| I've used stickers for that before[1] but it would cool to be
| able change the labels on the keys automatically. :-)
|
| [1] Like this: https://www.amazon.com/HRH-Keyboard-Stickers-
| Background-Lett...
| Stratoscope wrote:
| Original IBM PC users may remember a program from 1983 called
| WordVision that came with keyboard stickers. There's a
| picture of the sticker sheet here:
|
| https://forum.winworldpc.com/discussion/10869/software-
| spotl...
|
| It was an idea that really only worked if WordVision was the
| only app you used on the PC. Plus the stickers got dirty
| around the edges and came loose after a while.
|
| Fun fact: WordVision was designed by Jim Edlin, no relation
| to the 'edlin' command line text editor that shipped with MS-
| DOS and PC-DOS.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Power usage, I suppose.
| dleslie wrote:
| I'd love to have one in order to switch between Canadian
| Multilingual, American English, math and symbolic logic.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| Symbolic logic makes sense, but most keyboard users can touch
| type in their own locale.
| jarfil wrote:
| Some people know several languages, but it's difficult to
| learn a locale well enough to 100% touch type when you only
| have a keyboard in a single locale, and don't use some of
| the languages as often as others.
|
| Also, per-software layers with action icons instead of
| learning alphabetic shortcuts.
| masklinn wrote:
| It's also difficult to know all alternate layouts by
| heart e.g. Apple's US International has 4 different
| layout (shifted, alted and alt-shifted), and while being
| able to type "@" directly can be convenient I literally
| never remember it's alt-k, so I hunt through basically
| all the alt-ed layout until I find it.
| dleslie wrote:
| I still hunt and peck for accents necessary for Quebecois.
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(page generated 2020-05-31 23:00 UTC)