[HN Gopher] Germany bans digital doppelganger passport photos
___________________________________________________________________
Germany bans digital doppelganger passport photos
Author : aloukissas
Score : 176 points
Date : 2020-06-04 15:57 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| comnetxr wrote:
| Is this AI generated text? It doesn't provide any context a
| normal human would want. The attempt at providing context feels
| exactly like an AI searched a database of summaries of research
| for something related.
| panopticon wrote:
| Reuters and Axios tend to have very... terse articles. Some
| being no more than a sentence or two.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| I have recently renewed my passport in Germany and took the photo
| at the passport office. The photo was printed out by a machine
| next to the entrance from which I carried it up two stairs to the
| clerk. While the new law was not in place at that time yet, it
| would have been trivial for me or any person going to the lengths
| of combining faces in a photo to adjust the layout of my own
| print to the one done by the machine and add its logo to it.
| germanier wrote:
| That's how it was done now for a long time. The new machines
| send the picture electronically to the clerk and don't print
| them anymore.
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| Thats not the only way you can fool facial recognition systems.
| You can get clear glasses that when put on will fool the system
| into seeing a different face.
|
| See https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sbhagava/papers/face-rec-ccs16.pdf
| [deleted]
| thadk wrote:
| Today in eigenvectors...
| Koshkin wrote:
| The whole paper passport thing is just ridiculous in the age of
| ubiquitous digital communications and photography. Any official
| requiring your picture could take it and send it to an AI for
| identification right on the spot.
| lostlogin wrote:
| Judging by the links throughout this thread and the posted
| article, that isn't foolproof either.
| Koshkin wrote:
| I agree, and having a barcode on the back of the neck would
| serve the purpose better.
| cygx wrote:
| There's currently no national database storing pictures of all
| German citizen, and I for one would oppose its creation.
| Koshkin wrote:
| Why would you oppose the database of all citizens to also
| having pictures in it?
| cygx wrote:
| It's a step on the road to mass surveillance.
| wasmitnetzen wrote:
| There is also no single database of all German citizens.
| Privacy is very important in Germany.
| germanier wrote:
| There is since 2007, at the Bundeszentralamt fur Steuern.
|
| In addition, many decentral databases (such as local
| registration databases) can be comprehensively and
| automatically queried by many individual authorities.
| looperhacks wrote:
| And what would be gained by that except spending a lot of
| money, needing to train existing officers and being reliant on
| a working internet connection?
| Koshkin wrote:
| > _train_
|
| In most cases this would amount to simply pressing a key and
| reading data off the screen.
| the_svd_doctor wrote:
| Easy in a "stable" situation like an airport with all the
| material.
|
| Harder in anything less than a perfect environment. Now what
| about between non-friendly countries. In a warzone. On a road
| checkpoint. For the random checks at the gate of the plane or
| in the middle of the boarding process (for flights to the US
| they check it both at the gate and on the "boarding platform"
| now). At least the paper things provides "something" when
| that's all you have to ID someone.
| josch wrote:
| This ban probably comes as a response to this activist project by
| the Peng! collective: https://pen.gg/campaign/mask-id-2/ where
| they used morphed portraits for passports.
| joyj2nd wrote:
| That is unlikely. Germany can't get enough from "non-
| integrating gap countries"-immigrants. They have the reputation
| of integrating really well into western society.
| doe88 wrote:
| So if I understand correctly, the kind of attack enabled by
| this manipulation is to provide a way for non-passport holders
| to pass custom controls by using the legitimate passport of the
| person they morphed their picture with. Is there any other
| useful kind of attack possible with this scheme?
| CaptainZapp wrote:
| Sure, you go through one of the automated gates, pretty
| common in most European airports now.
|
| Face recognition gives the green light, since (part of) the
| picture is a perfect match.
|
| A human may not be fooled, automated face recognition may.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Surely manipulating the photo beyond tweaking exposure, white
| balance, etc. was _already_ banned?
|
| It sounds like they're just taking steps to make it harder to do
| the already-banned thing. Hell, you can't even fix red-eye in the
| US:
|
| https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app...
|
| > Can I remove red-eye from my photo? No, you can not digitally
| alter a photo to remove red eye. You will have to submit a new
| photo without red eye.
| tutfbhuf wrote:
| > No, you can not digitally alter a photo to remove red eye.
|
| How about analogically alter the photo?
| XCSme wrote:
| Print it, use a colored pencil to edit it, scan it.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| > No, you can not digitally alter a photo to remove red eye.
| You will have to submit a new photo without red eye.
|
| What if the camera does that automatically without you knowing?
| Technically that still is "digitally alter a photo to remove
| red eye" (by the way there is no such thing as an unaltered
| digital photo). What if the camera lets you know it does and
| offers to turn that off - should you? What if an import script
| (which fires as you plug your camera/card) on your PC does that
| without you knowing? What if you know it's there? How does the
| result of any of these scenarios considered different from just
| doing that in Photoshop?
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| The camera would rather preflash a little bit to narrow your
| pupils, and then take the picture an instant after that
| preflash.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| When I last got my Australian passport renewed, the guy in
| front of me had his photo rejected because it had been
| edited. They had some sort of automated analysis that I
| presume worked off spotting weird JPEG aliasing.
|
| If there are signs it's edited, they'll tell you to come back
| with a different photo. (In this case, there was a photo shop
| a block away they had an arrangement with.)
| Zenbit_UX wrote:
| Presumably that would only work if you hand over the
| digital photo. Converting it to analog (printing it) would
| lose all this data. You could then also rescan from the
| analog and receive a clear jpeg that should pass most tests
| depending on how good your scan was.
| plantain wrote:
| You submit physical photos, which Australia is insanely
| picky over. My most recent renewal took me three tries
| across three separate camera stores before I found
| pictures they were happy with.
|
| The review process seems to be manual as far as I could
| tell, or at least it took O(days) each time for the
| results to come back.
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| Currently you can bring your own picture which makes it
| possible to do certain modifications beforehand.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Possible, yes. Permitted, no.
|
| The "photographer submits via a secure form" approach
| detailed in the article leaves this loophole pretty open,
| too, unless the photographers have to go through some kinds
| of security clearance vetting to get access.
| ibejoeb wrote:
| Is there some sort of camera fingerprinting technology out
| there, then, that distinguishes between processing done on
| the camera vs. post-processing in software? If not, how are
| we even going to tell, short of having signed files coming
| off the chip?
| eulenteufel wrote:
| When I got my first drivers license (Germany) the
| photographer actually digitally removed some moles from my
| face and did other editing to make the picture appear more
| good looking. I was a bit baffled as the picture is
| supposed to identify me but didn't say anything. Since then
| I always take ID-pictures in a photo booth. It really
| doesn't need a professional to take an acceptable picture.
|
| I could imagine a photo booth outputting a digital copy of
| the picture with signature so it is clear to the
| registration office that the picture has not been meddled
| with.
| dspig wrote:
| Or that the photograph of the large photograph the booth
| took a picture of has not been meddled with.
| mtnGoat wrote:
| The blackmarket is very much alive and well in Germany,
| allowing photographers to verify anything is silly, they
| can be bribed. :x
|
| In fact when I lived in Austria, within a couple months I
| had access to more black market goods/services then I did
| after growing up in the US for 25 years. I would imagine
| Germany is the same.
| wolco wrote:
| The blackmarket is obviously bigger outside of the US
| where US law and enforcement will be encouraged to go
| after blackmarkets more strongly than another company.
| Spivak wrote:
| The point isn't that they can be bribed, it's that the
| photographer has to attach their name to the photo and
| certify that it hasn't been altered or tampered with. It
| adds the ability to go after the photographer if they
| gov't ever discovers tampering has been done.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| New business model. Pop-up photoshop. Like the countless
| other businesses popping up, operating for a few months,
| washing money, closing down, owners gone, employees
| unknown, and so on.
| verst wrote:
| Except it takes a while to start a business in Germany
| and there is lots of paperwork involved. Also it sounds
| like licensing is required to be able to take passport
| photos. Chances are that licensing might apply to both
| the business and the individual photographer.
| verst wrote:
| This is also where it is important to point out German
| culture.
|
| Germans are extremely law abiding and rule following.
| People are also generally worried breaking social norms.
|
| So while it is technically possible for photographers to
| digitally alter photos before upload, there will be very
| few who would dare to do that.
|
| Photographers rely on the revenue from passport photos
| for their businesses to survive. Initially the plan was
| to exclude professional photographers too but the
| government backtracked on that after outcry.
| possiblelion wrote:
| What do you mean by this? What kind of black market goods
| did you have access to?
| mattr47 wrote:
| Alcohol and cigarettes are always on the black market
| close to US military bases. Prices are always cheaper for
| service members and their family on base.
| xwdv wrote:
| Databases of credit card numbers on USB sticks, etc
| fluffything wrote:
| Given location and user name, probably milk.
| ilammy wrote:
| Seem sketchy, given
|
| > _after growing up in the US for 25 years_
|
| and the average lifespan of the species being 12-15
| years.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| I don't know about Austria bit there is a healthy market
| in Sweden for anything which is heavily taxed - mainly
| alcohol, cigarettes.
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| > unless the photographers have to go through some kinds of
| security clearance vetting to get access.
|
| Passport picture photographers will need a license in
| Germany.
| usrusr wrote:
| Not really: a paper trail and a process that requires the
| photographer to be knowingly and provably complicit would
| already create a pretty high barrier. Not an insurmountably
| high barrier, but no amount of vetting could.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Makes it possible or makes it legal?
| adambyrtek wrote:
| We developers sometimes struggle with the distinction. The
| point of laws and regulations is usually not to make fraud
| technically impossible, but increase the cost and/or risk
| of getting caught. People still use locks on doors even
| though they are easy to pick.
| fit2rule wrote:
| I could use some CGAN scripts to make a picture of me, which
| - to your eyes and mine, looks like me - but nevertheless
| does _not_ have my official physical metrics, and thus I
| could pre-dispose future AI against recognizing me.
|
| I could. But, I won't any more, because Germany will make
| life a hassle for me.
| HPsquared wrote:
| We already have face recognition AI using passport photos
| by the UK border control.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPassport_gates
| Havoc wrote:
| Yeah they were always quite intense w/ German passports anyway.
| And the tech seems quite sensitive.
|
| e.g. Movember caused the airport gates to flunk me
| kleiba wrote:
| That's why they will now require you to have your photo taken
| either at a passport office or at a photographer's. Although
| the wording in the article is not quite precise on the latter
| part.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| This seems reasonable, as the entity taking the photo is
| essentially attesting the photo is of you.
| CleanCoder wrote:
| I thought they always required a professionally taken photo?
| In Canada you need to go to a photographer (lots of malls and
| general stores have one) to take your photos and then stamp
| and sign them at the back making them eligible for passport
| submission.
| mkl wrote:
| In New Zealand you can take them yourself and submit them
| digitally when you apply for renewal online. I did it with
| my DSLR on its timer, then cropped and converted to JPEG
| with Krita or Gimp. I believe the new photo is compared to
| the old one by a person. Maybe our passport office is being
| a bit naive? It used to require more hoop-jumping though.
| tdeck wrote:
| You can take them yourself in the US and print them out,
| although I think most people don't. I saved about $14 by
| doing that.
| btgeekboy wrote:
| Same. I had some taken at a local store, and thought they
| came out terribly. Not worth the money at all. Set up my
| DSLR in the kitchen on a tripod, digitally placed 2
| right-sized copies on a 4x6, and printed them at the
| drugstore for less than a quarter. I used decent
| equipment, but a modern phone these days will take an
| acceptable photo. (In fact, I just searched the iOS App
| Store at there's at least a few apps that claim to make
| acceptable photos.)
| CobsterLock wrote:
| Same here, as long as you have white backdrop (large
| poster board from an old school project) and are able to
| crop/print it to the correct dimensions there is no need
| to get a professional picture. When planning the family
| vacation, were looking for any ways to cut costs a bit
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| How does this make any sense as a security measure? Real
| criminals will always find a photographer who would produce
| whatever a picture they want and stamp it.
| nrp wrote:
| Presumably there is some level of traceability to this.
| If a falsified photo is found on a document used to
| commit fraud or other crimes, the photographer who
| enabled it would be banned, blacklisted, and possibly
| held criminally liable.
| eigenvector wrote:
| What prevents me from stamping "Walmart at 123 Example
| Avenue" then scrawling an incomprehensible signature on
| any photo I want? The stamps the shops use don't have any
| security features to them.
|
| Unlike the old "guarantor" system where a licensed
| professional or public official (judge, lawyer, doctor,
| etc.) had to sign your application - basically, people
| who the government could verify the existence of and hold
| accountable - there's not very much traceability to the
| photo system.
| dirtyid wrote:
| Quite a few Korea & Chinatown will beautify your photos and
| submit them. The ones I been to will do so without even
| asking. They've been around for a while.
| gumby wrote:
| German passport photos (until now) could be taken by those
| photo machines that are all over the place. Australia
| requires a printed photo that's most easily taken at a shop
| but doesn't have to be.
|
| Disclaimers: it's been 6 years and 2 years since I've had
| to do this.
| hnarn wrote:
| Weird. In Sweden its required to have your picture taken
| by a machine at the police office where you apply for the
| passport.
| anon4242 wrote:
| Weird indeed. This is my second reminder today that
| technology does not spread equally around the globe. The
| other was hearing my wife ask the IT-guy in her company
| if they had a fax number for a form from the Italian
| government.
|
| After having my photo taken at the police office for at
| least my two latest passports it's somewhat surprising to
| hear about so many countries still using "the old way".
| There are such obvious advantages both in security and
| convenience by having the passport issuer take the photo
| and the technology is obviously available.
| emilfihlman wrote:
| In Finland you can submit your own photo through the
| internet. All applications are verified by the police so
| I don't see the issue.
| anon4242 wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > Such manipulation of photos is typically _invisible_ to
| the human eye, the researchers found.
| CaptainZapp wrote:
| Same in Switzerland, alas it's the designated passport
| office and not a police station.
|
| They have a specially kited photo booth, where you also
| leave two fingerprints for additional biometric
| verification.
|
| In order to renew your passport you need to schedule an
| appointment withyour local passport office.
|
| Last time I renewed, 2013, it took 7 weeks until the
| earliest available appointment, which was a bit
| surprising. I'm sure, though, there's an emergency
| shortcut for a price.
|
| The new passport arrives two days later by mail.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| I wondered about that. Hard to imagine any other useful
| (because lack of quality) use for these. Will they sue,
| or embed some new firmware with EURION and wireless
| whatever uplink?
| verst wrote:
| Originally the plan was to only allow taking of passport
| photos at local government citizen services offices (which is
| where passport applications occur). Photographers
| successfully made the case that this destroys their
| businesses (usually 30-40 percent of revenue). It appears
| that now photographers must digitally upload the photo to a
| government website. Details on that are still unknown.
|
| This article (in German) is pretty good.
|
| https://www.golem.de/news/foto-morphing-regierung-macht-
| digi...
| Luc wrote:
| When I had my passport picture taken, it was in a booth with
| software that assured the resulting image conformed to all the
| rules.
| soufron wrote:
| This is the paradox of Solow pushed to the next level. You see
| digital stuff everyhwere, except in the balance sheet... because
| everytime you use digital technologies to simplify something, it
| ends up complexifying something else :D
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Is there any reason in a digital camera age to not have the
| passport office agent take the photo?
| nicbou wrote:
| The current answers are simply wrong.
|
| I describe German bureaucracy for a living. Here's a free
| sample: it's slow and inconvenient.
|
| Distributing part of the process to photo booths means you can
| show up, hand your documents and leave. This is already more
| than most locations can handle. Adding to their burden won't
| help.
|
| As someone else pointed out, some processes can be done by
| mail. Driving all the way to Berlin to sort out paperwork would
| put rural communities at a disadvantage.
| csunbird wrote:
| At least they adhere to the rules, the process is slow and
| inconvenient for every resident, unlike my home country where
| process difficulty ranges from extremely easy to impossible
| based on who you know and your political status.
| nicbou wrote:
| They try to adhere to the rules. In practice, there is a
| lot of variance within a single building.
|
| For instance, my friend managed to do something by email.
| The same day, I got an answer from the same office
| confirming that it was impossible.
|
| I spent months documenting the freelance visa application
| process, and worked with several relocation consultants to
| document it. A person I helped got a 3 year visa on the
| same day. It took me 2 months to get a 2 year visa, even
| though I coached him and had a far simpler case.
|
| I have a copy of their process bible, a 1000 page PDF in
| thick German. I can assure you that they don't follow
| what's in it.
| TwoHeadedBeast wrote:
| In many countries, passport applications are conducted
| remotely, either by post or online. Passport offices are few
| and far between, and you would only use them if you needed one
| the same day, and would pay a large premium do so.
| est31 wrote:
| This was the original plan but it was dumped because of
| photographer lobbying. IMO a good idea because it helps small
| business owners. The passport office's capabilities to create
| photographs will be expanded as well though.
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| Some people really take pictures seriously and will spend a lot
| of time taking pictures until they are satisfied.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| I'd expect the passport agent to be empowered to say "no" to
| that.
| fhars wrote:
| That's why it is allowed to use a photo taken by a
| professional photographer.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Yes, I know that's why. If that's a security risk,
| though, I'm saying I don't really mind if it's an
| official passport agent who has to take the photo, and
| giving them to power to say "suck it up, it's not a
| fashion shoot" to avoid drawing things out.
|
| DMVs already do this for drivers' licenses. It's odd that
| passports don't work the same way.
| cortesoft wrote:
| They take driver's license photos at the DMV... they don't
| even let you review them, they just snap them and that is
| what you get.
| httpz wrote:
| In some states, the DMV uses the photo you took during your
| permit test. Clueless 15 year olds show up with messy hair
| to take the written test, get their photo taken and now
| that photo could be on your driver's license till your 30s.
| DMV lets you renew your license by mail without a new photo
| sometimes.
|
| My license has a picture of a 15-year-old with the height
| and weight that's quite different from my current self..
| o-__-o wrote:
| Every dmv I have been to has always asked or offered an
| option to review my photo. It also helps to be appreciative
| of the plight of the person at the counter. It's their
| daily job so they can bend a little when getting to the
| more exciting part of their work
| usrusr wrote:
| Until this law you could simply bring your own picture for
| German passport/ID and the clerc taking the application
| would maybe eyeball you for verification, unlikely to
| reject anything but the most obvious fakes. Handing in a
| picture of Mickey Mouse wouldn't just get rejected if they
| have a particularly bad day, but anything somewhat
| plausible would likely get through.
|
| Driver's license is an even lower standard iirc, because it
| isn't abused as an ID in everything but name. Driver's
| licenses merely document qualification and most don't even
| expire so you will occasionally see some frail elderly
| person hand around their licence to show off how they were
| looking at 18 years old.
| baybal2 wrote:
| It was big surprise to me that in a lot of European
| countries, it is possible to apply for passport by post
| usrusr wrote:
| Probably hinges on mandatory ID: once you have that, the
| passport is hardly more than a copy into a slightly
| different medium.
| dmurray wrote:
| It's possible in Ireland, which doesn't have mandatory or
| even widespread government ID. You can even apply for it
| online.
| netsharc wrote:
| I wonder if they can equip the passport office with
| software that compares your face with the photo; software
| face recognition is based on measuring the geometry of
| the face, and if there are strange differences (that the
| human eye can't see), the software should flag it..
| [deleted]
| walterbell wrote:
| Consumer aesthetic preference. Enabling a revenue stream for
| small business. Reducing burden on already-overloaded passport
| office. Enabling remote applications for passports, e.g. there
| is not a passport office in every city of a large country.
| _ph_ wrote:
| The funny thing is, the local zoo had no problem taking your
| picture and printing it onto a all-year ticket 15 years ago,
| but I found it quite annoying that you are required to bring
| your own photo when applying for a new passport. As I went
| through renewing my passport some weeks ago, having your
| picture taken with a webcam in the office would ad no
| complication to the process - any aesthetic value is lost by
| the time it is on the passport anyway.
| walterbell wrote:
| Some embassies use self-service robot/kiosk.
| sokoloff wrote:
| The local zoo is rightly substantially less concerned about
| forgeries than the State Department.
| FabHK wrote:
| And yet, the local zoo took the picture themselves in a
| process under their control, while the passport office
| doesn't, but accepts pictures from external sources.
| That's the point.
| hef19898 wrote:
| In Germany, there is. At least on per county (Landkreis) or
| larger city. Also, every / most major airport has one for
| emergency cases.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| > there is not a passport office in every city of a large
| country
|
| My little suburb of 20k people has a USPS employee who
| handles them. Should be entirely possible even in rural
| areas.
| reaperducer wrote:
| Nope. I know people who would have had to drive two or
| three hours to a USPS location that could do passport
| photos. And then, it's only done for a couple of hours a
| day, one or two days a week.
|
| Instead, they went to the photo department of the pharmacy
| 15 minutes away and got it done.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| USPS taking the role on primarily would likely entail
| expansion of the services to smaller post offices, like
| the one in my wife's old town of 400 people in the middle
| of nowhere.
| cortesoft wrote:
| Passport renewals in the US can be done via mail, so you are
| never in the passport office to take a photo.
| simias wrote:
| Don't they take fingerprints for American passports? They do
| for the French ones so you have to be in-person, but they
| still expect you to provide the pictures yourself oddly
| enough. You can use an accredited photographer or, more
| commonly, one of these automated photobooths you can find in
| train stations and shopping malls.
| cortesoft wrote:
| You have to send in your old passport and a new photo...
| you have to go in person for your first passport.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| The US does not take fingerprints for US passports. Not
| yet, at least.
| reaperducer wrote:
| Not when you first get them, but I think they're
| collected when you travel.
|
| I know I've had my fingerprints scanned at the border a
| number of times. I'd be surprised if they weren't added
| to the record somehow.
| ghaff wrote:
| I've had them scanned for Global Entry in the US (and
| when I return into the country using Global Entry). But
| as a US citizen I wouldn't otherwise be scanned entering
| the US.
| ken wrote:
| I've traveled to several countries outside the U.S., and
| never had my fingerprints taken, even at border crossings
| which required seeing my passport.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| Things are changing and more and more countries around
| the world are requiring fingerprints at least at
| airports. For example, Peru and Senegal both required me
| to give my fingerprints when flying into their main
| airports.
| iso1631 wrote:
| Quite normal for me with UK passports, to be
| fingerprinted.
|
| Some countries (Russia comes to mind) require you to
| physically go to the visa centre to get fingerprinted as
| part of the visa application, and then again when you
| arrive at immigration
|
| Other places where visas are online, on arrival, or not
| needed at all, tend to fingerprint at the border -- the
| U.S, Singapore, etc.
|
| We currently don't need to get fingerprinted in the EU,
| but we decided to remove our freedoms so not sure if that
| will change next year.
|
| Getting fingerprinted is such a common thing that I can't
| remember many specific countries requirements.
| scott_s wrote:
| Only from non-citizens:
| https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/visa-
| inf...
| rconti wrote:
| What's the biometric data on the RFID passports? Just
| encoded versions of everything in the physical book?
| Including photo?
|
| I had my prints taken, but it was for Global Entry IIRC.
| Agreed that I've never submitted prints for a US
| passport.
| cardiffspaceman wrote:
| The enhanced credentials you can get, such as "Global
| Entry" require an interview and fingerprints. Global Entry
| cards make it comparatively easy to return to the US via
| Miami in my experience.
| astura wrote:
| No
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| Neither US nor Canada requires fingerprints for passport
| issuance nor renewal.
| hef19898 wrote:
| In Germany they do as well. So yeah, in person. Don't ask
| me how that works for handicapped people and elderly not
| able to move.
|
| They don't safe your prints anywhere else then your
| passport or ID, so. Theoretically, you can get a passport
| with your picture for a different person. Very theoretical,
| and also very illegal. As long as the picture was within
| spec for biometric pictures, it was ok to bring your own.
| brummm wrote:
| To be fair, a passport is only needed to travel outside
| of the EU. Elderly that can't make it to an office to get
| the passport will have an even harder time actually
| travelling outside of the EU.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| I had one taken ten years ago with a Polaroid camera. It ended
| up overexposed and barely legible but it was still accepted.
| walterbell wrote:
| _> The government on Wednesday backed a law requiring people to
| either have their photo taken at a passport office or, if they
| use a photographer, have it submitted in digital form over a
| secure connection_
|
| Is there already a list of approved photographers who would
| submit directly, i.e. effectively "signing" the digital photo
| bitstream? What would be the qualification process for such a
| photographer? Who is liable if the photographer's computer is
| hacked and the image tampered prior to uploading?
| _ph_ wrote:
| The funny thing is, as I recently had to renew my ID card, I
| would have been happy, if the local authorities had offered to
| take my picture. They rejected the picture I brought, because
| they claimed my head was angled not straight ahead enough and I
| had to run out to find someone to take a picture of me. Luckily
| they could refer me to a local shop nearby which was open at that
| time, but considering the low quality of those ID photos, having
| a web cam in the office would be an obvious and easy improvement
| both to the security and the convenience of the process. They
| already had a fancy tablet, where I had to provide my signature
| digitally.
| microtherion wrote:
| Yes, here in Switzerland all identity photos are taken in
| booths at the passport office, which has the advantage that any
| photo they take is, by definition, compliant with their
| requirements regarding angle, facial expression, etc.
| rciorba wrote:
| It's the same in Romania.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| In the US I had this done in the post office by an on-premise
| photographer. It's also where I picked up the form to fill
| out to get a passport in the first place, and where I was
| going to mail it from anyways, so it's not like the US
| doesn't have one-stop-shops for this.
| eitland wrote:
| Same in Norway. It has been like this for a number of years
| already.
|
| Somewhat funny story: I and my wife renewed our passports
| this year and we both look a lot nicer:
|
| 10 years ago the requirement that we should not smile was
| enforced so strict and hamfistedly that I looked like a
| mugshot somewhat like the doom guy and my beautiful wife
| looked old and sad. I remember it taking a while before they
| thought I looked angry enough 10 years ago.
|
| This year they only required that we didn't actually smile so
| the process was a lot quicker, police will probably not
| harass me on border crossings and my wife doesn't look like
| she is 20 years older ;-)
| PopeDotNinja wrote:
| I wonder... could you use a mugshot?
| 1123581321 wrote:
| I think you could except they are often not on a white or
| almost white background (a US requirement.)
| [deleted]
| thomaslord wrote:
| I suspect the fact that we do it this way in the US may be a
| small part of why DMV lines are legendary - that being said,
| Germany may be able to implement it better.
| bostonpete wrote:
| DMV lines were at least as bad, probably worse before the
| days of digital photography....
| odux wrote:
| > Luckily they could refer me to a local shop nearby which was
| open at that time
|
| Not telling that is the case but happens all the time in India.
| The local shop and this guy have a profit sharing deal :-)
| kolinko wrote:
| Mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, I prefer not having to
| spend an extra hour to find a photo place each time I need new
| documents. On the other hand, I have a good photo on my
| documents :)
| _jal wrote:
| Are there any examples of "doppelganger" photos online? Now I'm
| curious about what Germany is using to do the matching.
| leoh wrote:
| > pictures of two people are digitally combined, making it
| possible to assign multiple identities to a single document
|
| Wild, I wonder how often this has happened.
| junon wrote:
| I wonder how this will affect the subway station photo booths.
|
| For those that don't know, at least in Berlin (possibly other
| places) many U-Bahn (Subway) stations have photo booths for
| passport photos. They're apparently verifiable by the government,
| but I've never really understood how.
|
| This sounds like those booths will no longer work. Anyone have
| any more info?
| refurb wrote:
| It fascinating seeing the different passport requirements by
| country.
|
| It's a well known fact that intelligence agencies will use other
| countries passports as cover. Israel is well known for this.
| Which countries would you use? Well, a US passport isn't going to
| be a good cover in many countries, so it's often more neutral
| countries like Canada, Australia, Sweden.
|
| Canada has tightened up their passport requires a few times after
| a rash of stolen and forged Canadian passports.
|
| Smaller countries with less security issues have much more lax
| passport requirements. A friend was able to get a Vietnamese
| passport through her mom. She brought original birth
| certificates, etc. They were fine with just photocopies (that
| could obviously be changed).
| supernova87a wrote:
| Eh, going to all the trouble of manipulating the photo and
| getting around Germany's laws are a waste of time.
|
| All you do is go to Belgium, and bribe a local mayor, where they
| have the ridiculous system of having _local_ administration and
| control over the issuing (and mysterious "loss") of passports.
| Belgian passports are rife with fraud.
| the_svd_doctor wrote:
| Yes they are issued by the cities (so pictures and fingerprints
| are taken there) but are of course created by the interior
| ministry, not by the cities themselves as far as I know. Same
| for the national IDs.
|
| Are there particular evidence of fraud ? It's the second time I
| see this comment recently. Belgium has the Registre National
| where everything is centrally stored (including passport data,
| you can see all passports and IDs issued in your name there for
| instance), it's not totally a city-by-city thing.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Nice hack, now wondering if you can wear the 'Angelina Jolie'
| glasses frame[1] for your picture.
|
| Funny story, when my passport was stolen in London I had to go to
| the US Embassy there to get a replacement, I brought a picture
| that I got in the tube station from a "passport photo machine".
| The embassy rejected it, requiring instead that I go to a
| specific photographer who was located about 2 blocks away. That
| guy charged me 20 pounds sterling for two black and white photos.
|
| My wife kept that one after it had expired because in the photo I
| have a smoldering look of disgust :-)
|
| [1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/3/13507542/facial-
| recogniti...
| kube-system wrote:
| In the US you can't wear glasses at all for your passport
| photo, even if you always wear glasses.
| [deleted]
| astura wrote:
| This is really really new, I've owned three passports
| (including my current one) where I'm wearing glasses.
|
| Apparently it's cause people can't figure out how to take a
| photo with glasses properly.
|
| https://travel.state.gov/content/travel_old/en/news/no-
| glass...
| kube-system wrote:
| I wouldn't say it's really _that_ new, assuming an even
| distribution of passports over time, close to 40% of active
| US passports probably fall under those rules.
| barrkel wrote:
| I don't know if it's the same for US passport photos, but US
| visa photos need to be a larger square whereas most European
| photo requirements have a smaller portrait aspect ratio.
|
| The photo is no different, it's just that there's prescribed
| size in imperial units for US visa photos. At one point I went
| to a photo shop to get US visa photos since I knew a photo
| booth wouldn't do the right thing, but they printed out Euro
| style photos by mistake, and I had to ask them to do US ones
| instead, so I got both sets of photos. Exactly the same zoom,
| exactly the same photo, just the Euro style was cropped more.
|
| Edit: I looked them up:
|
| https://www.gov.uk/photos-for-passports/photo-requirements -
| 35mm wide by 45mm tall.
|
| https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app...
| - 2 inches square.
| kleiba wrote:
| Awesome.
|
| Until now, you could take your passport photo conveniently at
| home for next to nothing. I'm sure they will introduce exorbitant
| fees for a simple picture now.
| jdiez17 wrote:
| > The government on Wednesday backed a law requiring people to
| either have their photo taken at a passport office or, if they
| use a photographer, have it submitted in digital form over a
| secure connection
|
| So photographers are still able to submit doctored photos. If
| they really want to stop this practice, the government must have
| full ownership over the chain of custody of these pictures
| (including hardware and software), OR be able to detect morphed
| pictures that are submitted by anyone.
|
| In my opinion neither of these strategies will be implemented in
| practice, so this new law seems pretty pointless.
| simias wrote:
| If a photographer is caught sending doctored photos (easy to
| detect after the fact, especially if the photographer does many
| of these manipulations) they'll be in deep legal trouble.
|
| As often, why bother with an overcomplicated technical solution
| when a social one will do the trick just fine? Oh, who am I
| kidding, let's just use the blockchain instead!
| jdiez17 wrote:
| The same deep legal trouble applies to individuals sending
| manipulated photos, though.
|
| And if you are a criminal who wants to obtain a fake
| passport, it's probably not out of your reach to use social
| engineering to convince your photographer to plug a USB stick
| with malware into their computer.
|
| It does raise the bar of difficulty slightly, but it also
| gives criminals plausible deniability.
| azepoi wrote:
| but individuals can do this alone without getting caught.
| But the progessional has to be involved with clients. If
| the professional is known to provide this service, the
| troubles for him follow. There is also the mystery consumer
| possibility. It's far far easier to catch.
| hef19898 wrote:
| I once needed a new ID card as I lost my old one and the
| passport wasn't valid anymore. I also moved to a new city
| just before.
|
| In order to get a new ID card, usually you hand in your old
| one, all I needed was a copy of my birth certificate and
| the registration in tje new city. The latter was easy, as
| in Germany registration and passports / IDs are done by the
| same office. The latter one was 10 Euro in stamps, 3 days
| later I had the copy in my postbox. Out of experience, your
| name on the box is enough.
|
| So, theoretically you could get a new ID, with your picture
| and prints, but a different name, by ordering a birth
| certificate and have it mailed to you. No idea what kind of
| checks where built in in the background, but I hadn't the
| impression there were a lot. Germany, like 8 years ago.
|
| Wouldn't work on scale, so. And way to risky for a one-off.
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| Yeah, there are a lot of absolutely terrible solutions just
| screaming to be digitally solved that just don't get solved
| because the minor road bumps put in place make it juuuuust to
| hard to bother with the vast majority of exploits.
|
| Look at notarizing documents. It's laughably insecure. It's
| just a stamp that lists a notary's name. Hiring a notary to
| work for you and expecting them to notarize documents for
| you, their boss, is completely normal and not seen as any
| sort of conflict of interest. Obviously a notary would quit
| their job rather than agree to backdate a document a day or
| two for the boss, right? Of course. And, despite the
| technical ease of making digital copies of documents or
| recording notary entries with timestamps or something,
| notaries tend to use a log book, and sometimes they just let
| the user fill it out themselves. In many states, the log book
| isn't even a requirement. And then there's the stamp. There's
| no standard for what it needs to look like, no secret token,
| it's just the words "notary public" and the name of a notary.
| And the names of all the notaries are listed on a public
| website somewhere. You can order a notary stamp on Amazon.
| And even if everything were impossible to fake, satisfying a
| notary of your identity is crazy easy. In many states, you
| don't even need your own ID, you can show up with someone
| else who has their own ID and have them vouch for your
| identity. And in many states the notary wouldn't even need to
| write down who that other person claimed to be. The whole
| system is absolutely screaming for digital reinvention,
| potentially including, yes, blockchain.
|
| And yet, the system still mostly works just fine. A
| notarization is generally seen as pretty good evidence of
| something. People have some confidence in them. Folks you do
| business with will ask you to send them notarized documents.
| That's because most people who'd be willing to forge
| someone's signature in the moment aren't willing to go
| through the extra effort of faking a notarization, even
| though it's not a very high bar. And so it all somehow works,
| kind of. Weird, right?
| tekknolagi wrote:
| This is kind of weird. I had my German ID (not passport photo,
| but visa ID & student ID) photo taken at an official
| photographer's, and he spent a good deal of time photoshopping my
| face to make me look more attractive. This is the only country
| I've ever seen this done. They certainly don't do this in the
| US...
| ericol wrote:
| I had to renew my German passport last year.
|
| I live in Buenos Aires (I'm from Argentina) and the embassy
| refers you to a couple of places where you can get your photo
| taken.
|
| I went to the place that was close to a bus stop in the bus line
| I was using to get to the embassy.
|
| It was a rather badly lit shop; I asked for them to take me a
| photo for the passport, and they did it with a rather lousy
| cellphone, and printed it right away in one of those auto
| machines that you can see everywhere you can print digital
| photos. They guy cut it with scissors.
|
| Guess it goes without saying that it was of very bad quality; and
| yes, that is the picture that is now in my passport.
|
| I do not need to alter it in any way, it's so bad probably my
| brother could enter Europe with it.
| ab_testing wrote:
| Can I see any samples of digital doppelganger photos. The one on
| the website does not like a photo of 2 separate people.
| [deleted]
| glogla wrote:
| Here's a ten year old art project where they did that:
| https://artoftheprank.com/2010/06/19/ztohoven-art-collective...
|
| There's a video link in the page.
|
| Our government reacted precisely the same - passport/national
| id offices now have cameras.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Well, that's the point.
|
| > Such manipulation of photos is typically invisible to the
| human eye, the researchers found.
|
| (The picture in the article is just a file photo of a passport,
| though. Not an example of the manipulation.)
| nebulous1 wrote:
| That quote strikes me as an incorrect interpretation of
| whatever the researchers said
| gruez wrote:
| Is this some sort of adversarial image? Wouldn't it only work
| on specific neural networks?
| pjc50 wrote:
| Adversarial against humans; it sounds like the idea is to
| take two people who already look somewhat similar and
| produce a photo which as best as possible looks like
| either.
| apetresc wrote:
| It works on the neural networks inside people's skulls. The
| point is a passport control officer would wave either of
| two distinct people through based on the same photo.
| k1t wrote:
| This isn't related to fooling humans. There is no
| passport control officer.
|
| Immigration use automated barriers and facial recognition
| to match the person to the digital photo on the passport
| chip.
|
| The trick in the article causes the facial recognition
| algorithm to accept two different people for the same
| passport.
| iso1631 wrote:
| About a decade ago we had iris scanning at London
| Heathrow. You had to register upfront, and the idea was
| only frequent flyers would be registered, but it was
| great, the lines were short - you didn't even need to get
| your passport out.
|
| It started getting a bit silly towards the end as
| unregistered people started clogging up the queues, but
| it was far faster than the "automatic passport scanning"
| stuff.
|
| Surely that was harder to forge than a passport photo. I
| assume the company in charge didn't offer enough bribes
| to the politicians making the decision.
| germanier wrote:
| The trick also fools humans who still exist at all
| borders, including at automated gates (where humans get
| to see each comparison although I can't imagine them
| being to attentive at the end of their shift).
| elchin wrote:
| German passports have fingerprint info stored in them - won't
| that prevent someone else from being able to use the passport? I
| would hope they check fingerprints at the border.
| laszlokorte wrote:
| Last time I renewed my passport finger prints were optional. If
| you want to visit certain countries like USA you must provide
| them but you are not generally required.
| junon wrote:
| I'm an American expat in Germany. I've never had my
| fingerprints checked, neither in the US not at any country
| borders. Could be a privilege stemming from US/EU diplomacy but
| I've never heard of them checking anyone else's fingerprints.
| the_svd_doctor wrote:
| For foreigners entering the US fingerprints are taken in
| ~100% of the cases at airports. Land borders seem to be an
| exception.
|
| For the EU it's very rare as far as I know, both for EU
| citizens or foreigners.
| vkou wrote:
| > For foreigners entering the US fingerprints are taken in
| ~100% of the cases at airports.
|
| Not for Canadians - unless this recently changed,
| fingerprints are not taken for a Canadian flying in from
| Canada, or from Mexico.
| the_svd_doctor wrote:
| Interesting. I'm a student from Europe. All of my
| international friends have the same experience. But
| Canadian have a very special relationship with the US
| (like few/no visas...) so I guess I'm not surprised.
| xxpor wrote:
| Which is fortunate in the EU given the automated passport
| gates. I can't imagine trying to get Opa to scan his
| fingerprints in a way that satisfies the automated checking.
| vetinari wrote:
| EU citizen here; I had the fingerprints checked at US
| borders.
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