[HN Gopher] Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation,...
___________________________________________________________________
Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened
arteries
Author : ClarendonDrive
Score : 203 points
Date : 2020-06-05 16:28 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (news.berkeley.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.berkeley.edu)
| dunefox wrote:
| Colour me concerned. I sleep badly and don't do much sport.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| You might find one helps the other - though I don't necessarily
| recommend "sport" per say, but exercise.
| dunefox wrote:
| You mean "per se"? ;)
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| If only you'd gotten to me when I could still edit it. :(
| Add it to the wall of ignominy.
| randlet wrote:
| As general rule of thumb exercising close to exhaustion 4-6
| times a week will greatly improve your ability to sleep and
| overall mental well being.
| jkereako wrote:
| For folks who want to learn more about sleep, I highly recommend
| this three-part Podcast interview with Dr. Matthew Walker:
|
| https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/
|
| The single best thing that improved my quality of sleep was a
| ten-minute meditation before bed. I have anxiety (albeit
| officially undiagnosed) and meditation helps me stay calm. It
| also helps me stay asleep. Without it, I wake up in the middle of
| the night.
| bonoboTP wrote:
| I've heard good things about weighted blankets for anxiety.
| bamboozled wrote:
| Another study to emphasise the importance of sleep, another way
| to make it harder for people with sleep issues feel more anxious!
| istorical wrote:
| Radical dietary change can lead to huge differences in
| experiential quality of life and sleep as well.
|
| Chronic dietary inflammation (which just means foods that your
| body doesn't like) can have a whole host of subtle effects you
| would never notice until they are absent.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| If your doctor tells you to do a sleep study, do it.
|
| If, as a result, they tell you to get a CPAP, get it. Those
| things are life-changing.
|
| I felt like an old man at 50 years old. My back was so stiff I
| couldn't put on my socks. When I got out of bed in the morning I
| felt so fragile, like my joints were all inflamed - especially my
| Achilles' tendons. I was too tired to do anything beyond 6 pm.
|
| Now, 51, I feel totally normal again. And that change was pretty
| much overnight once I started using that wretched machine.
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| When I say the same thing about Prozac, people react with
| anger. It's strange.
|
| A sleep study is definitely one of the best things I ever did.
| It helped uncover some undiagnosed narcolepsy, and I've been
| able to manage it since then. Even knowing that it existed was
| helpful. (For example, lots of stress was caused by getting
| jobs that expect you to have your butt in the seat from 9am to
| 5pm. Other jobs exist.)
|
| So yes. Sleep study good! Go do one!
| wincy wrote:
| I'm glad Prozac worked for you. It made me impotent in my 20s
| and I felt like I was being dropped down an elevator shaft
| for months after discontinuing it.
| oarabbus_ wrote:
| I got a CPAP for obstructive sleep apnea and it resulted in
| absolutely zero benefits after several months. It did cost
| quite a bit and take time to clean, though. I'm very skeptical
| about the positive effects of CPAP for all but the most
| severely affected individuals.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| This may sound crazy, but for those who can't tolerate a CPAP,
| an effective alternative is playing the didgeridoo.[1]
|
| Anecdotally my wife and kids were complaining about my snoring,
| and I bought one for $40 off Amazon. Not only has my snoring
| improved, but my lung capacity has improved. Plus it's just fun
| to play.
|
| [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360393/
| wincy wrote:
| I just ordered one, for $35 dollars what's the worse that
| could happen? Looks like fun, and if I don't use it hey, I
| have a cool didgeridoo that people can ask about at parties.
| tartoran wrote:
| Yes, fixing out the lung capacity, musculature of the
| diaphragm, throat, tongue, etc is really the cure. And
| loosing excess weight if that is the case. CPAP, while
| effective and life changing is a band aid that the medical
| industry can make money on. I don't hear anyone saying that
| the CPAP should be used in conjunction with restorative
| exercises. I'm glad you found this solution.
| unishark wrote:
| I'm pretty sure healthcare providers everywhere inform
| people who need to exercise and lose weight that they need
| to exercise and lose weight. Not really fair to ding them
| for making money on other treatments for people who can't
| bring themselves to do it the natural way.
| tartoran wrote:
| You may be right, I've never been diagnosed and put on
| CPAP personally and can't say whether that is true or
| not. But in general the western medicine has come to a
| point that it tends to offer solutions that are quite
| good at reducing the symptoms and generally don't address
| the underlying cause. It may be incompetence of the
| system or it may as well be financial incentives,
| slightly steered towards not providing a cure and but
| milking the patients for more money with symptom
| reducers. But on you're right on one thing though, a lot
| patients are lazy and would choose the quick fix over
| doing some of the work themselves.
| westoncb wrote:
| In my experience this is actually rare. I've heard many
| similar stories to mine here from friends and family, but
| briefly, my own recent experience with this kind of
| thing:
|
| I saw four doctors across two states trying to resolve a
| certain medical condition, which happens to be very
| common, has very negative effects, and has low recovery
| rates.
|
| They prescribed a couple different medications, and
| mentioned that the disorder is "associated with" a list
| of a bunch of things related to lifestyle and diet.
| (These items were never brought up again by any doctor
| after their initial brief mention: it was a kind of
| "going through the motions" with each doctor--part of the
| obligatory informative synopsis of the disorder.)
|
| The medications did practically nothing, and
| experimenting with briefly removing different items on
| the list from my life did practically nothing. Meanwhile
| my life was severely negatively impacted by this for ~4
| years.
|
| Eventually I decide to "get healthier" in a general way
| with an improved diet, insistence on regularly getting
| sufficient sleep, reduced alcohol consumption, and
| regular strength training.
|
| A few months later the condition was at about 50%, and
| now it's at a point where I'm barely bothered by it.
|
| I'm also a Type 1 diabetic and ran into a similar thing
| there: the recommendations given to me by doctors were
| incompatible with the blood sugar ranges they described
| as desirable. So I did my own research and discovered
| that basically everyone who had really good numbers was
| doing massive carbohydrate reduction in addition to
| taking insulin.
|
| What it came down to in both cases: doctors will not
| _prescribe_ lifestyle changes. They may mention them, but
| their core solution is likely to be a medication +
| tweaking dosage-- _even if this is by comparison far less
| useful_.
|
| I do think there's a legitimate reason, though: most
| people are simply not willing to make these kind of
| lifestyle changes. However, for those who _are_ willing
| to do it, there 's a good chance they'll lack the info on
| how effective it can be, because it's not what their
| doctor is going to emphasize.
|
| (I'd urge anyone who thinks my cases may be unique to try
| this: if you know someone who resolved a medical
| condition by general lifestyle improvements like diet,
| sleep, exercise etc.--see if they made the changes
| because a doctor recommended it or if the motivation come
| from somewhere else.)
| Eliezer wrote:
| Sacrificed months of productivity to fast off 70 pounds in
| hope it would fix sleep apnea. It didn't.
| ValentineC wrote:
| How was your productivity affected during your weight
| loss?
| kilo_bravo_3 wrote:
| I snored so loudly that when I was in basic training that
| they made me sleep all of the way at the opposite end of
| the open-bay barracks we were in.
|
| I was 18 and near the height of physical perfection.
|
| As far back as 10 years old I remember feeling miserable
| every single morning even after getting a full night's
| sleep.
|
| At age 35 I got a CPAP and finally fixed a quarter
| century of piss-poor sleep.
| metrokoi wrote:
| This is so frustrating. Surely millions or billions of
| humans having terrible sleep is not just some genetic
| abnormality, and we did not evolve to have terrible sleep
| only fixed by modern technology. There must be some
| underlying issue that can be addressed for the majority
| of people.
| sweetsocks21 wrote:
| I got diagnosed with sleep apnea and asked about this,
| since I'm not overweight. The doctor said it's more about
| the structure of the mouth and throat than obesity. There
| is an area at the back of the tongue that gathers more
| fat and can block the throat, but palette structure is a
| big factor. Along with jaw size and throat size.
|
| I remember reading not too long ago on HN an article
| about our dental health in modern times:
| https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-we-have-
| so-ma...
|
| It could be our diet contributing to smaller
| jaws/palettes that increase the prevalence sleep apnea?
| metrokoi wrote:
| This absolutely makes sense to me. It explains why it
| affects anyone, not just overweight people or people who
| do not exercise. Our mouths evolved to masticate much
| larger amounts of low calorie and high fiber food. If
| this theory is correct, it is still unfortunate that it
| is not easily solved with something like exercise alone
| and often requires either braces or CPAP.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| Poor indoor air quality.
| bg4 wrote:
| My entire academic life was affected by always being
| sleepy. Falling asleep in band class in high school with
| the saxophone in my mouth, etc. I was a track & field
| athelete and was in good shape. Finally got a cpap as an
| adult, along with vitamin d supplements, has improved it.
| novok wrote:
| Vitamin D deficiency is linked to teeth grinding and is
| correlated to sleep apnea patients. It might be worth it
| to take a 5000 IU pill along with sunshine walks close to
| solar noon to see if it improves your situation.
|
| I use dminder to track my estimated vitamin d levels.
| JoshTriplett wrote:
| In my case, I doubled my lung capacity through swimming,
| which did wonders for my health.
| CincinnatiMan wrote:
| What measurement of lung capacity? That's pretty awesome
| and maybe I should look into it haha.
| JoshTriplett wrote:
| Any measurement you like: volume of air, duration I can
| hold my breath, and most relevantly, how quickly I get
| "winded".
|
| There are specific swimming exercises you can do, as part
| of a routine.
|
| (Results may not generalize. It worked for me.)
| goldenkey wrote:
| I had a sleep study done but was so uncomfortable I couldn't
| fall asleep...all the wires and crap. Waste of money.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Same for me. It took me 3 goes to get enough data for a
| diagnosis. Don't give up.
| cachestash wrote:
| Same happened to me. I felt pressured into sleeping and as a
| result, I could not sleep.
| PhantomGremlin wrote:
| I was in the same situation, very hard for me to fall
| asleep. Finally the technician gave me a pill, perhaps
| Ambien. I fell asleep and they got the data they needed.
| technofiend wrote:
| Getting an APAP (auto-adjusting machine) was automated to the
| point that the barrier to entry is pretty darn low.
|
| An at-home study required me to sit through dead obvious
| instruction on how to equip and use the machine. Once I was
| prescribed a machine as a result of the study, the most time-
| consuming part was picking up a machine and sitting with a
| nurse to try on various masks.
|
| Since the machine itself is set to what the CPAP community
| calls "lazy doctor mode" meaning it's just set to auto-adjust
| itself in a range and the newer machines use cell data to
| automatically upload usage data, once you take it home you're
| done. My only follow up visit was over the phone. And there is
| an open source project for reading the data which will appeal
| to the HN crowd: https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/
| elcritch wrote:
| I'm not in a position to do a sleep study. But I'd like to
| self-monitor my sleep and oxygen levels. Do you know of any
| DIY projects in that area? In the future fitbits and Apple
| watches should automatically include sleep / oxygen quality.
| It'll take getting past the FDA, but for the low cost of
| having that info bs the benefits society would gain... well
| DIy seems like a good way to trail blaze.
| bradstewart wrote:
| I can't comment on how accurate it is, but my Garmin
| Vivosmart measures sleep pulse ox.
| spease wrote:
| The best pulse ox I've found is the O2Ring. It's more
| comfortable than any other pulse ox I've used, it samples
| at a high rate and produces absolutely gorgeous output. The
| downsides: I don't believe it integrates with OSCAR, and
| it's a whopping $180.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07T5L57M4/
| benwilson-512 wrote:
| And even if you're young, if you find yourself waking up at
| night with your heart racing, excessive snoring, etc, get it
| checked out. I got a CPAP machine at 20, and it's hard to
| overstate the impact. You can even just straight up buy them
| these days and adjust the settings yourself, sometimes the
| insurance premium on the sleep study is as high as the cost of
| the machine.
| dilatedmind wrote:
| where can you buy them without a prescription?
| haram_masala wrote:
| How feasible is that, though - to just up and buy one and set
| it up yourself? I'm honestly asking, not criticizing.
| vidarh wrote:
| Buying them is easy enough gh at least - you can buy them
| on amazon
| balfirevic wrote:
| I wonder if it would be helpful to allow people who experience
| sleep issues to just get a CPAP machine and try it out, instead
| of having to go through a sleep study.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| I've wondered that, too. Between my insurance company and me,
| we spent a combined $1000 on deciding whether I should get
| one. That's more than a low-end unit costs.
| [deleted]
| kevinmgranger wrote:
| Most people aren't good at assessing their own fatigue. A
| sleep study gives one quantifiable information about the
| quality of one's sleep.
|
| So may people find their CPAP uncomfortable when they first
| use it, that it's unlikely they'll use it properly. Having a
| first use under the watchful eyes of a physician could be a
| good idea.
|
| Then again, some people also get one and then don't use it,
| so maybe it's more of the same.
| balfirevic wrote:
| Yes, I'm sure it's not as good as having a proper sleep
| study but if the end result is that more people who need
| them get them it would be a positive outcome.
|
| Also, a doctor can show you how to use one, you would not
| necessarily be completely on your own.
|
| Sleep studies are just such a hassle (and expensive,
| depending on where you live), and if you have a weird sleep
| schedule it can be difficult to even fall asleep in time.
|
| Being able to just rent a CPAP machine for a couple of days
| and have a doctor show you how to use it would be a good
| option to have.
| jmpman wrote:
| I bought a wearable blood oxygen meter as I was concerned I
| had apnea. A previous study was inconclusive (I don't think I
| slept the whole night). If I sleep on my back, I'm certain I
| have apnea, but haven't validated with the o2 meter. Sleeping
| on my stomach, my o2 levels were acceptable all night. Once I
| confirm apnea on my back, I'll probably get another sleep
| study (I've gained at least 30lbs since the last), and a
| CPAP... just like my father.
| balfirevic wrote:
| > I bought a wearable blood oxygen meter as I was concerned
| I had apnea
|
| Any recommendation?
| tstrimple wrote:
| > If your doctor tells you to do a sleep study, do it.
|
| All I got in return is a $500 inconclusive.
| virgulino wrote:
| Thanks. I didn't know that it could be inconclusive, or how
| much it costs.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| They're slowly moving to "at home" sleep studies, so
| hopefully the cost will come down. Essentially they just loan
| you a bunch of monitors on a chest belt, teach you how to put
| it on, and you return it the next day for your consultation.
|
| Here's a video showing how to install the monitor:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHvydhYu85o
|
| It is still a "developing area" but I think it will be the
| norm eventually. It *should reduce the cost (but YMMV, as US
| healthcare costs don't conform to normal logic).
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| Cervical cancer screenings save women's lives: Cervical
| cancer is an insane beast that often has no symptoms when it
| is the most treatable. Many, many women get abnormal or
| inconclusive results once or twice during their lives. It can
| be a variety of causes, even! This doesn't change the fact
| that they save lives or seriously increase some people's
| quality of life.
|
| The sleep studies are similar. Someone getting an
| inconclusive result doesn't negate all the folks that have
| been helped by it - and honestly, doesn't rule it out. The
| money bit is just a shameful side effect of the health care
| system where you live and I'm guessing it is part of the
| sting of an inconclusive result.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| That really sucks. When did you do the test - and was it in a
| clinic or at home?
|
| I do encourage you to keep trying if you have reason to think
| you have sleep apnea. Maybe get a home O2 monitor to help you
| decide if it's worth spending the money on another sleep
| study.
| zoopdewoop wrote:
| Why did you even comment this? He's saying the upside is
| worth it.
|
| I also got an inconclusive, but my dad has apnea and a sleep
| study basically changed his life. The possibility of that is
| clearly worth 500$
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Because to some people $500 is a lot and doctor visits are
| often useless. "See a doctor" is default advice, but it can
| be very expensive advice.
| yohannparis wrote:
| This a USA healthcare problem, and you should flag it as
| such.
| odiroot wrote:
| If only it was so easy. I was told, in Germany, I have to wait
| 2+ months for the next appointment.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| That's the one consolation to those of us in the maddeningly
| expensive US system. You can usually find someone who will
| get you scheduled in very short order.
|
| Don't let the wait deter you. If you do need the machine, it
| can really improve your life.
| jpxw wrote:
| In my country, the UK, it's not unusual at all to have to
| wait 2-3 months for a hospital appointment. People shit on
| America's health system a lot (and in many cases for
| perfectly valid reasons), but I think they don't quite
| consider the alternative.
| vidarh wrote:
| You can buy your way past the queues either per treatment
| or with private insurance in the UK and still pay far
| less than in the US.
|
| Most of us wait because the prioritisation is by clinical
| need, and is usually 'good enough' and some because they
| can't afford it.
| downerending wrote:
| _Are_ you paying less, all in? (e.g., taxes)
| jpxw wrote:
| We are, yes. But the average American would be shocked at
| the "customer experience" the average patient gets from
| the NHS. No such thing as a free lunch etc.
|
| And I think if you have private insurance (i.e: double
| paying), you'll probably be paying more than the average
| American. I don't know for sure though.
| thelittleone wrote:
| I live in Bali. I had some chest pains for a few months so
| saw a specialist. He tested with stethoscope and said
| sounded fine. He gave me the option of taking a CT thorax.
| Went downstairs to radiology. They could do the CT scan
| right away. They had a deal going for COVID of blood test +
| CT thorax for $120 USD (whereas the CT Thorax a lone would
| have been $170).
|
| So I took the test and got the results 2 days later and saw
| the specialist. He showed me the full scan said it's all
| clear. He then asked if I had insurance. I said no... he
| walked me to the billing desk and said no charge. What a
| legend.
|
| Turns out chest pains was from GERD.
| ValentineC wrote:
| I assume you're not an Indonesian local...? How does the
| hospital prevent frivolous checkups from hypochondriacs?
| odiroot wrote:
| Unfortunately had to leave the country for some time, will
| miss this chance for now. Thanks for the recommendation
| though.
| balfirevic wrote:
| Can you do it in private clinic (for a reasonable amount of
| money)?
|
| Here in Croatia, I could wait a couple of months or I could
| pay around $300 to have it done privately.
| Phenomenit wrote:
| I suspect I might have some sleep disturbance. It's really hard
| for me to sleep on my back, I wake up constantly and snoor so I
| just sleep on my stomach instead.
| spease wrote:
| Yeah that sounds like possible sleep apnea. Have you looked
| into doing a sleep study?
| mancerayder wrote:
| I asked a doctor about it and he said that since I'm not obese
| nor overweight, and I don't regularly wake up gasping, then I'm
| not a candidate.
|
| I've had fitful sleep as far as I can remember. I wake up (and
| remember it) probably 4-5 times a night and I've been told I
| toss and turn all the time. I find if I take a calmant or a
| substance I can sleep through the night.
|
| I have chronic inflammation includes Achilles' pain just as you
| describe. I'm in my lower 40's. I'm also a weightlifter and I
| do calisthenics - both of these activities 4-5 times a week.
| Oh, but I sit in front of a PC 12+ hours a day!
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Your doctor is WRONG!
|
| I spent 2 extra years barely half awake because I thought
| that, being thin, I could not have sleep apnea. Nor did I
| wake up gasping.
|
| The 4 main risk factors are overweight, being male, over 40,
| and current or past smoker. But some get it while being 0/4.
|
| Sleep apnea is one of the best serious medical conditions you
| can have, since the CPAP machine fixes it completely, with
| very minor discomfort!
| amwelles wrote:
| A (healthy-weight) roommate of mine would regularly stop
| breathing in his sleep. He was convinced he was fine until
| his girlfriend finally got him to do a sleep study. Got his
| CPAP machine shortly after!
| mancerayder wrote:
| Wow. After reading these comments, I'm definitely going to
| look into it. I always found the idea of a sleep study (which
| my insurance btw refused to approve so it'd be out of pocket)
| annoying because ... heh, well, I was worried I would barely
| sleep at all in a clinical setting. Ironic, perhaps.
| ip26 wrote:
| Had terrible quality sleep for years. Snored, and had various
| other problems. But I am young and my BMI is 18 so I got
| brushed off by sleep lab after one night of testing didn't
| show apneas. Eventually figured out it was all due to my nose
| which barely functioned after healing crooked from an
| accident as a child. Septoplasty changed my life.
| UweSchmidt wrote:
| Could fitful sleep be a symptom of overtraining?
| mancerayder wrote:
| Yes! But I'm extremely careful not to overtrain, also I've
| taken weeks off, etc., it's all the same.
|
| My 5 days a week, btw, is not 5 days of very long workouts.
| This is a tangent but I used to do 3 days of 1.5+ hour
| workouts including heavy weight training (squats), and HIIT
| or other conditioning. All functional movements, no
| bodybuilding or anything. Now, I do 5 days a week of short
| 25-35m workouts. My body composition is way better and I
| feel less pain overall.
| Afton wrote:
| Please go see a sleep doctor, not a GP. I was diagnosed in my
| late 30s, and I was definitely not overweight at the time. In
| retrospect, many things that I thought were normal (or even
| positive) turned out to be very clear symptoms of chronic
| sleep deprivation.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| I'll second this. I had sleep apnea but I don't remember
| ever waking up gasping - not even once. I only know about
| it because my wife said I'd stop breathing while I was
| sleeping.
| mancerayder wrote:
| Aside from sleepiness, what sort of symptoms did you have?
| Are you referring to mood disorder and/or inflammation?
| jason_pomerleau wrote:
| BMI of 19 with severe sleep apnea checking in. Never woke up
| gasping, never struggled staying awake, but I did feel like I
| enjoyed the occasional afternoon nap, and my partner reported
| snoring.
|
| It's worth getting checked out. I ended up going the dental
| appliance route because CPAP machines feel like a torture
| device to me. Anecdotally it's made a noticeable difference.
| Haven't had a nap in ages.
| electriclove wrote:
| What does the dental appliance do?
| Someone1234 wrote:
| Agreed. But a CPAP is only as a good as your usage, too many
| people "have" one but don't use it.
|
| A lot of it is comfort. So try switching from a full-face to
| nose pillow-style mask. Or alternative headgear. Or even talk
| to your doctor about lowering the pressure if it is the noise
| (better to have less effective treatment, than none at all).
|
| PS - A lot of, frankly, older doctors are still not prescribing
| Auto-CPAPs for people who may be suitable. If you're currently
| set on a fixed pressure, and your machine is a common Auto-CPAP
| (variable pressure) maybe seek a second opinion from a
| different (younger?) doctor. Auto-CPAPs are medically certified
| for many Sleep Apnea suffers, doctors just haven't adapted or
| haven't been re-trained, so they're chronically under-
| prescribed. Auto-CPAP improves your comfort, not your
| treatment, which improves adherence.
| anonymousab wrote:
| That said, it's not always a magic bullet.
|
| I got a cpap after a sleep study found I had 80+ breathing
| interruptions in the short overnight test window.
|
| It easily brought them down to <10, but I feel no better in the
| morning, and it makes the occasional nap much more of a hassle.
|
| The value is absolutely there in the greatly reduced likelihood
| of death in my sleep, and the white noise is better than
| snoring when sleeping around others. But I wouldn't want to get
| people's hopes up about it providing them the bad sleep panacea
| they desire.
| spease wrote:
| Did you ever figure it out?
| PhantomGremlin wrote:
| Read forums http://www.cpaptalk.com/CPAP-Sleep-Apnea-
| Forum.html and http://www.apneaboard.com/forums/Forum-Main-
| Apnea-Board-Foru... often CPAP requires fine tuning with most
| doctors can't be arsed to do.
|
| Get OSCAR software it will help you fine tune the CPAP
| settings. https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/
|
| Often people are given the cheapest CPAP machines that won't
| auto-adjust themselves. Guess what, at least for Medicare
| it's all the same price so the cheaper the machine the more
| profit for the DME! The forums will guide you to how to get
| the best from your machine.
|
| I fine tuned my CPAP based on what I learned and it really
| improved my AHI. You say "<10" but if you mean AHI that's not
| good enough. Even doctors want <5. Mine is <1.
| cachestash wrote:
| You're all going to think I am a crazy, but I instead elected
| to tape my mouth closed with 3m tape right when I go to bed.
| This to me is superior and should be your first port. Not only
| did it fix my apnoea and huge lack of energy during the day,
| but also my chronic sinus issues that had plagued me for years.
| Its also a lot cheaper, much easier to use / travel with and
| gets me into a good habit of nose breathing during the day. A
| CPAP machine is still reinforcing the poor habit that may well
| have contributed to your sleep abnormalities in the first
| place. Mouth Breathing. It costs $2 for a roll of 3m tape, so
| it's not like it costs a lot if its really not working for you.
|
| Mouth breathing is horrendous for your health and well being.
| There is a good reason why it was ostracized in the past
| ("mouth breather" was an insult). It was a clear sign of poor
| health in an individual.
|
| It's one of the best unknown health hacks out there.
|
| https://askthedentist.com/mouth-tape-better-sleep/
| thelittleone wrote:
| I found it helpful to work on nose breath power. I needed to
| for boxing as I was mouth breathing. So on my jogs I started
| to nose breath took some time to get the throughput I needed
| but sleep improved and general breathing feels much improved.
| dlp211 wrote:
| Can you provide some articles/videos for techniques? I've
| been a mouth breather my whole life and wonder if I could
| improve my running performance by switching technique.
| cachestash wrote:
| Hey, OP here.
|
| Tape your mouth at night! On your easy runs, breath
| solely through your nose.
|
| For the record, I am an ultra runner. Nose breathing is
| hugely beneficial for endurance athletes. I have seen my
| pace come up while heart rate / perceived effort remains
| the same.
|
| I did the last years entire Montane Spine Challenger just
| breathing through my nose (108 mile race).
| balfirevic wrote:
| > You're all going to think I am a nutball, but I instead
| started to tape my mouth closed with 3m tape
|
| Wait, while sleeping or during the day? If while sleeping,
| isn't it dangerous?
| spease wrote:
| It sounds like potentially, yes.
|
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninashapiro/2019/10/18/keep-
| you...
|
| Dr. Li does surgery for sleep apnea. I was referred to him
| once for evaluation for a surgical procedure only he does
| (EASE/TPD) and which I was told that the referring doctor
| had seen a lot of effectiveness in improving sleep apnea in
| their patients. He seemed like he knew his stuff and was
| very up-front about being conservative about making
| predictions in my case.
| cachestash wrote:
| I would be a little sceptical of someone whose whole
| career is based on nasal surgery to fix apnea playing
| down a simple non evasive alternative. He lists zero
| studies to back his premise of it being dangerous.
| cachestash wrote:
| No, not at all. I heard it first from a dentist and its
| quite common, well more common than would be expected. Its
| also perfectly safe, if your nose becomes congested you rip
| it off in your sleep.
|
| It fixed my apnoea and chronic sinus issues. Seems I was
| constantly developing nasal polyps from mouth breathing all
| night.
|
| Here is a dentist recommending mouth taping:
|
| https://askthedentist.com/mouth-tape-better-sleep/
| balfirevic wrote:
| Thanks, that's really interesting. I might try it, if I
| can figure out how to keep my mustache and beard intact
| :)
| freedomben wrote:
| Also have a mustache and beard. Just ordered
| https://smile.amazon.com/Sleep-Strips-SomniFix-Breathing-
| Nig... . We'll see how it goes. Still sounds insane but
| hey, It's easy enough to try.
| cachestash wrote:
| Awesome, give a it few days to adjust to. Its common to
| wake up and find your tore it off on your sleep and its
| suck on your pillow or forehead :)
|
| Just keep putting it on at night, and before you know it
| you will wake up in the morning and have completely
| forget you still have it on.
| theli0nheart wrote:
| > _You 're all going to think I am a crazy_
|
| It's only crazy that you're not using a medical device that's
| built for this! Your head's in the right place, though. ;)
|
| https://goodmorningsnoresolution.com/
|
| > _Mouth breathing is horrendous for your health and well
| being._
|
| I completely agree with this, but using an APAP and breathing
| through one's mouth are unrelated. There are full-face masks
| that let one breath through the mouth, but the mask that came
| included with my machine was a nose pillow. Since air is
| continually being pushed through my nose, breathing through
| the mouth is very hard to do.
| cachestash wrote:
| > medical device that's built for this!
|
| You don't need to spend $90 on some patented thing. Use
| simple 3M Micropore Surgical Tape 2.5cm x 9.14m, its what
| every one else uses for mouth taping and its exactly what a
| lot of dentists will suggest is used, although a few more
| folks are using SomniFix Sleep Strips as well. Tape works
| absolutely fine though, and its the consensus go to by most
| users.
| Afton wrote:
| Literally 2' of elastic fabric and some velcro...
| theli0nheart wrote:
| > _and its the consensus go to by most users_
|
| I can't attest to relatively popularity, but this device
| was independently suggested by both my dentist and my
| ENT. It works really well.
|
| Tape seems like a great option too, but it seems like
| it'd come off easily? I might give it a shot.
| cachestash wrote:
| Good point, you know if this works for you, that is all
| that matters at the end of the day.
|
| The tape stays on very well. You want Micropore Surgical
| Tape - 2.5cm x 9.14m. Also it helps if you don't have a
| beard. This was the only down side for me, but I will
| take the better sleep / improved health over a beard.
| electriclove wrote:
| Have you used this? I wonder if it would be helpful for
| teeth grinding.
| tomato2juice wrote:
| > You're all going to think I am a crazy, but I instead
| elected to tape my mouth closed with 3m tape.
|
| It does sound a little crazy, but only because I'm surprised
| there's not a more comfortable solution. Tape on my mouth
| would prevent me from falling asleep.
|
| Is there not some sort of mouthguard that blocks airflow, and
| thereby achieves the same result in a more comfortable, less
| sticky situation?
| cachestash wrote:
| Its a little weird the first night, but after 1-2 minutes
| its strangeness dispersers. In a way its no different to
| holding your nose. You can get mouthguards, but they don't
| work very well. You end up drooling all over the pillow and
| half gasping for air and spitting it out. All you need is a
| nice single strip of 3m tape.
|
| https://www.everydayhealth.com/sleep/mouth-taping-
| cheapest-l...
| gnramires wrote:
| I would go even further: try to train yourself to use your
| nose all the time, specially around sleeping. Think of
| keeping your mouth closed before sleeping and if you wake up
| noticeably having breathed through your mouth take a mental
| note to change. It worked for me (no tape required).
|
| (Whatever works for anyone of course. If other methods still
| leave bad sleep, by all means use a machine!)
| spease wrote:
| How did you verify that it "fixed your apnea"?
|
| A CPAP does not require mouth breathing. Nasal pillows
| require you to breathe through your nose. If necessary they
| shut your mouth with a chin strap. A piece of 3m tape sounds
| dangerous for someone if the problem is nasal obstruction or
| rhinitis rather than their mouth dangling open. They might
| not be able to gasp for breath and experience an even worse
| apnea.
| cachestash wrote:
| > How did you verify that it "fixed your apnea"?
|
| My wife and waking up feeling like I did after a nights
| sleep as a child.
| kulig wrote:
| Yeah folks dont do this if you have allergies. You might die.
| nojs wrote:
| It could also be the reverse - chronic inflammation makes you
| uncomfortable and therefore unable to sleep well.
| [deleted]
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| "... associational results in humans mirror recent data in
| which experimentally manipulated sleep disruption in mice led
| to higher levels of circulating inflammation"
| kulig wrote:
| Man im fucked. I really have to get a handle on my sleep.
| TallGuyShort wrote:
| Can anyone more familiar with this field elaborate on exactly
| what "chronic circulating inflammation throughout the blood
| stream" is? Inflammation I understand, but how does it circulate
| throughout the bloodstream? Does this refer to inflammation of
| the blood vessels, the heart, or somehow your blood itself?
|
| And is there a reason to suspect causality goes in the direction
| implied in the article (i.e. bad sleep -> plaque) and not (i.e. X
| -> plaque and X-> bad sleep, where X could be stress or emotional
| state, etc.)?
| derefr wrote:
| Circulation of pro-inflammatory compounds, I'd assume.
| naasking wrote:
| This article seems to contradict itself:
|
| > UC Berkeley sleep scientists have begun to reveal what it is
| about fragmented nightly sleep that _leads to_ the fatty arterial
| plaque buildup known as atherosclerosis that can result in fatal
| heart disease.
|
| This is a causal claim, emphasis mine, which contradicts:
|
| > "To the best of our knowledge, these data are the first to
| _associate_ sleep fragmentation, inflammation and atherosclerosis
| in humans," said study lead author Raphael Vallat
|
| which is a correlative claim, emphasis also mine, and they use
| "linked" throughout the article, which is also correlative.
|
| So does fitful sleep "lead to" chronic inflammation and arterial
| plaque, or are chronic inflammation and arterial plaque simply
| typical of people in poorer health and/or overweight, which can
| itself potentially cause sleep disorders, ie. a correlation? I'm
| not sure we know the actual root causes here.
| [deleted]
| elchief wrote:
| I've improved my sleep quality (as measured by FitBit), by eating
| smaller dinners earlier, and not snacking at night. Avoiding
| alcohol entirely most nights. Avoiding drinking water before bed
| so I don't have to get up to pee
|
| I take Webber Super Sleep (available at Costco). Has Melatonin,
| 5-HTP (serotonin precursor), and L-Theanine. Seems to help
| blaufast wrote:
| James Nestor's new book 'Breath' may be useful to you if you
| suffer from fitful sleep. His research into and experiments with
| breathing may give you some easy fixes to help improve your
| sleep.
| 83457 wrote:
| RIP me
| chrischen wrote:
| Anybody have "clinical grade" sleep tracker recommendations as
| recommended by the article? I have a smart watch sleep tracker
| but my doctor says it is inaccurate (withings watch), and it
| always says my deep sleep number is too low even though google
| says the range is within normal.
| mattm wrote:
| It's not clinical grade but I got the Mi Band 3 and it seems to
| work surprisingly well for only $30. The account of rest I feel
| in the morning generally matches the account of deep sleep it
| says I got.
| dota_fanatic wrote:
| Dreem is the only thing I know of. Pricy though.
| https://dreem.com/en
| victor106 wrote:
| This review of dreem on reedit is comprehensive. Seems like
| its the best sleep tracker you can buy.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ouraring/comments/e3l1jl/30_nights_.
| ..
|
| Just found this code online for a 20% off NOOEONDVV
| novok wrote:
| Does it actually stay on? I had a zeo headband sleep tracker
| and there was a %50 chance it would slip off while I was
| asleep.
| dnissley wrote:
| Just got one a few weeks ago. Feel free to AMA.
|
| It stays on for me (medium to large size head, or so I
| think) -- tends to ride up on my forehead a bit over time
| but never had it fall off. It's got some adjustments that
| can be made to tighten/loosen the fit, on top of which
| there is some elastic in part of the band.
| balfirevic wrote:
| What prompted you to get one? Did you have any sleep
| issues, or was it just curiosity? If you had sleep
| issues, did it help?
| dnissley wrote:
| I've had more and more trouble sleeping as I age, and in
| the past 2 years it's gotten way worse. I've tried all
| manner of things and had put off getting the dreem for a
| while since it was so expensive. I've been to the doctor
| who sent me for blood tests and also referred me to a
| urologist, but everything came back normal.
|
| My specific issue: I get up in the night to urinate
| consistently at least 1-2 times per night, and then
| usually have a very difficult time getting back to sleep
| -- since my body seems to think it's time to wake up at
| that point, and starts thinking about literally
| everything. I'm a fairly anxious person by nature as
| well, which doesn't help my situation.
|
| It seems as though there's a vicious cycle that I don't
| know how to deal with well, where I have a bad night of
| sleep, then try to go to bed early the next night, but it
| doesn't seem to help, and it messes up my sleep schedule
| a lot, which leads to even more problems.
|
| I'm in the middle of what dreem calls their "sleep
| restructuring program", which is based on CBTI. What it's
| having me do right now is basically restrict my sleep to
| a short 6 hour and 45 minute window, with emphasis on a
| consistent wake time. The idea is to focus on increasing
| sleep efficiency -- basically time asleep divided by time
| in bed. As you increase sleep efficiency it gradually
| widens the sleep window.
|
| In addition it's having me form other habits around night
| time awakenings like not staying in bed if I can't get
| back to sleep to short circuit the association between
| wakefulness and being in bed.
|
| I can't say whether it's helped for sure yet (my sleep
| efficiency has gone up in the past 2 weeks from 70ish
| percent to mid eighties), but even with the reduced time
| in bed I do seem to have about the same energy as I did
| when spending much more time in bed.
| balfirevic wrote:
| Thanks for the detailed answer!
| xirdstl wrote:
| In my experience, it stays on.
| victor106 wrote:
| >To more accurately gauge one's sleep quality, the researchers
| recommend the use of clinical grade sleep trackers,
|
| Any recommendations for a good sleep tracker?
|
| edit:- already answered
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23431549
|
| tl;dr dreem is the best sleep tracker you can buy currently.
| Review at reedit
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ouraring/comments/e3l1jl/30_nights_...
|
| You can use the promo code to get a 20% off NOOEONDVV
| bobblywobbles wrote:
| Is the risk enhanced if you sleep less, or is it if you can't
| stay asleep? I could not tell from this study
| nyhc99 wrote:
| Here's what I wonder, and this is somewhat tangential to the
| issue-- the effects of cannabis are thought to be disruptive to
| some of the various stages of the sleep cycle, but at the same
| time, it can sure help you to achieve a full night of
| uninterrupted sleep. So in the context of these inflammation
| problems, I wonder what exactly it is about fitful sleep that
| leads to these inflammation responses and whether taking a toke
| before bed could be beneficial to your arteries.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Wishful thinking. You shouldn't start with the substance you
| want to take and work backward to rationalize it.
|
| There are plenty of milder, better-researched solutions
| suitable for longer term use without associated cognitive
| problems of cannabis. An extremely low dose of Trazodone, for
| example.
| OldFatCactus wrote:
| how do I avoid hardening my arteries?
| trentnix wrote:
| If this describes you, go get a sleep study done. A CPAP has
| completely changed the quality of my sleep. Even short sleep
| nights are deep and restful.
|
| Now I just need to get my diet under control and exercise
| regularly...
| oarabbus_ wrote:
| CPAP resulted in zero benefit to me, you are lucky.
| crispyporkbites wrote:
| Wouldn't getting your diet under control and exercising
| regularly be a lot easier/cheaper/better for you in the long
| run?
| kevinmgranger wrote:
| They're both critical. If you only have one, the other will
| be less effective (lean muscle loss versus fat gain when
| sleep deprived, a diet that disrupts sleep, sleep onset
| latency when there's no exercise) and/or more risky
| (increased injury risk when sleep deprived).
|
| Although, I wonder _if_ the false dichotomy were entertained,
| what will contribute to quantity and quality of life more.
| karatestomp wrote:
| It's a lot harder to control one's diet and exercise when one
| chronically feels like shit due to poor sleep.
| dlp211 wrote:
| Completely anecdotal, but I've been both highly fit and obese
| and irrespective of my fitness leve, crap sleep always makes
| me feel like junk, and good sleep always makes me feel great.
| I get more crap sleep being obese, but if I could fix that,
| exercise is much easier to come by.
| stdgy wrote:
| If you can do anything to fix your sleep now, immediately, it
| should be done. Poor sleep is arguably the worst possible
| thing you can inflict on your body. It has direct links to
| virtually every major disease and ill health outcome,
| including cancer, alzheimer's disease, every major mental
| health disorder, heart disease, increased risk of physical
| injuries, decreased metabolism... The list continues.
|
| You should absolutely get your diet under control and build a
| consistent exercise routine in the long run. But both of
| those things will be very hard to do without the proper dose
| of high quality sleep every night. Without proper sleep
| you'll be fighting your own body every step of the way. Every
| positive health outcome gets harder to achieve without sleep,
| not easier.
| r00fus wrote:
| I have heart issues (had a stent 2 years ago - early for my age)
| and have always slept poorly (mostly bad habits + diet).
|
| Sleep routine is the most essential thing to fix if you have
| resolved all your basic needs. It creates a feedback loop that
| helps to reduce stress and improve health.
|
| I've learned this the hard way - you shouldn't have to.
| JadeNB wrote:
| > Sleep routine is the most essential thing to fix if you have
| resolved all your basic needs. It creates a feedback loop that
| helps to reduce stress and improve health.
|
| How did you fix it? I suffer from asthma and frequent urination
| issues, both of which wake me up several times a night. It
| doesn't seem to matter much what my routines before sleep and
| after waking are if I am involuntary woken during sleep, and
| I'm stymied for a solution.
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Work on your breathing (see below) and do pelvic floor
| exercises?
|
| 1. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-healing-power-of-proper-
| bre...
|
| 2. https://www.colorado.edu/today/2019/02/25/novel-workout-
| impr...
| JadeNB wrote:
| > 1. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-healing-power-of-
| proper-bre... 2.
| http://colorado.edu/today/2019/02/25/novel-workout-
| improves-...
|
| Thanks! I've been interested in that WSJ article, which
| I've seen elsewhere, but it's paywalled. Do you know if the
| relevant breathing exercises are discussed elsewhere?
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| I fixed the Colorado University study link. As far as the
| WSJ article - unfortunately I don't have a good source on
| breathing exercises without the training device.
| Hopefully someone else can help. All of these things are
| _somewhat_ speculative. Imo, worth doing, but don 't
| trust anyone who says it's 100% proven science.
| chrisa wrote:
| Not sure about the asthma, but frequent urination at night
| can be a warning sign for diabetes; if you haven't had a
| blood sugar test lately, you may want to ask your doctor
| about one.
|
| Hoping you can find a solution!
| graeme wrote:
| Couple things for urination:
|
| * don't drink before bed
|
| * During the day, practice going longer between peeing
|
| * When you go pee, sort of imagine yourself still dreaming,
| and stop all daytime thoughts. Goal being to get back to
| sleep more easily
|
| * Check light sources and anything else which may disturb
| sleep. Often you may need to pee upon waking and yet it may
| not have been the reason you woke
|
| * A sleep tracker is always useful to help troubleshoot
|
| * Talk to your doctor if you haven't. Nocturia is associated
| with other health issues and early mortality.
| sojournerc wrote:
| My bladder capacity noticeably increased after I started
| adding a collagen supplement to my daily breakfast shake. I
| understand that it promotes and preserves elasticity in many
| tissues, including the bladder. It's also good for skin,
| hair, and connective tissue (tendons and cartilage).
| maccard wrote:
| > I suffer from asthma and frequent urination issues, both of
| which wake me up several times a night.
|
| I also suffer from asthma, you shouldn't be woken multiple
| times a night from it! That's very severe if it's happening
| with any regularlity and you should speak to a GP about it.
| JadeNB wrote:
| > I also suffer from asthma, you shouldn't be woken
| multiple times a night from it! That's very severe if it's
| happening with any regularlity and you should speak to a GP
| about it.
|
| I agree. Unfortunately I don't have a GP, and now's a hard
| time to get in as a new patient.
| chooseaname wrote:
| Is there a Dr in the house? Am I reading this correctly as if you
| improve your sleep you could possibly (I don't know the correct
| word to use here) improve? reduce? the plaque buildup in your
| arteries?
| adamsbriscoe wrote:
| It will reduce your risk. Poor sleep leads to an inflammatory
| cascade which can contribute to atherosclerosis. Also affects
| blood pressure; hypertension is a well-established risk factor
| for vascular disease. More reading here:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3548567
| chooseaname wrote:
| Thank you. I am glad these types of posts make it to HN, I
| just don't always understand them.
| gabrielsroka wrote:
| Matthew Walker, study senior author, on Joe Rogan (2018):
| https://youtu.be/pwaWilO_Pig
| jungletime wrote:
| Any apps that will tell me how often I snore and for how long?
| the-dude wrote:
| Fitful : Occurring in or characterized by intermittent bursts, as
| of activity; irregular.
|
| https://www.wordnik.com/words/fitful
|
| I am not a native speaker and had to look it up.
| johnmorrow wrote:
| Native speaker and you saved me the effort!
| Wistar wrote:
| Yeah, "fitful" is a word that sounds good but isn't.
| teekert wrote:
| Ha! Same here! I though that it must be something like that
| link between relief of depression and sleep deprivation.
| Turns out, fitful is not related to being fit or to a full
| night of sleep, but more to throwing a fit.
| pretendscholar wrote:
| Fit can also mean a convulsion or spasm, a coughing fit. So
| fitful is a period full of fits. Hope that helps.
| lenova wrote:
| I've been having major sleep issues recently (waking up every
| 60-90s minutes, trouble staying asleep, averaging 2-4 hours of
| sleep a night total).
|
| I recorded myself overnight and heard quite a bit of snoring, so
| I picked up a at-home sleep study kit, convinced that I had sleep
| apnea. The results were that I didn't, classified my O2 intake as
| normal, and my snoring threshold as low.
|
| I'm at a loss as to what do now. I have been practicing good
| sleep hygiene and exercising, but now I'm at the point where I'm
| asking my doctor for a prescription because I'm just so desperate
| for a night of sleep.
| michaelkschmidt wrote:
| Have you tried taking melatonin right before bed? Even with a
| CPAP machine I use them from time to time. Just be sure you
| have a full 8 hours as it can make you groggy the next morning
| shostack wrote:
| How reliable are the take home kits?
| thelittleone wrote:
| Tried skipping dinner?
| kzrdude wrote:
| I didnt sleep enough for all my teens and student years, and
| ended up with an autoimmune disease. Taking sleep and other
| health seriously has been a big part of getting myself back in
| working shape.
| hinkley wrote:
| The Dalai Lama, when asked what surprised him most about
| humanity, he said: "Man. Because he
| sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he
| sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he
| is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the
| present; the result being that he does not live in the
| present or the future; he lives as if he is never going
| to die, and then dies having never really lived."
| hinkley wrote:
| That quote and watching him interact with Desmond Tutu like
| they are school-aged BFFs are my favorite things about the
| Dalai Lama.
| opportune wrote:
| Wait seriously?
|
| If you don't mind can you share what the disease/effects are
| and why you think it's caused by lack of sleep when younger?
| kzrdude wrote:
| Sure. Multiple Sclerosis. It seems I'm not hard hit in terms
| of physical symptoms of this, but I had depression, fogginess
| of the mind and difficulties concentrating.
|
| It is not easy to say what begets what effect, but it's true
| that sleeping well and working/commuting less has been the
| only way to take back control of my life.
| fideloper wrote:
| Confirmed: having young kids is bad for your health.
| hinkley wrote:
| So are puppies.
|
| We were more of a cat family and I was too young to remember
| when we got our dogs. I did not understand that romcom trope of
| buying a man a puppy to see how he'd fare as a father.
|
| Then we got a puppy. Ho. Lee. Shit.
|
| New puppies make it about half again as long as a baby before
| they wake you up, and take much less time to settle down to 6+
| hours of peace and quiet (where you can go to bed early and
| your partner can do the late shift), but man are you a zombie
| for a while.
| quercus wrote:
| There was a period in my life (almost a decade ago) when I was
| sleeping poorly due to unhealthy work habits and excess caffeine.
| I was in my 20s and early 30s during this time and felt
| invincible, but the effects on my body were profound. The damage
| became so tangible I had no choice but to make a change, and have
| for the last 5+ years been sleeping normally. I miss those days
| of nonstop work, I was more productive then, but it would have
| killed me if I had continued.
| selestify wrote:
| What was the damage, do you mind sharing?
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