[HN Gopher] I Replaced My MacBook Pro with a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB ...
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I Replaced My MacBook Pro with a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB for a Day
Author : geerlingguy
Score : 102 points
Date : 2020-06-12 19:59 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.jeffgeerling.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.jeffgeerling.com)
| sloshnmosh wrote:
| It became "The year of the Linux desktop" for me when Windows10
| came out.
|
| I now use Linux for most everything.
|
| I also have 2 MacBook Pros and a MacBook Air but I quickly get
| frustrated when trying to do anything worthwhile on them and go
| back to my ancient business class Dell running Linux. YMMV
| AdrianB1 wrote:
| How is your comment related to the R Pi article?
| rnotaro wrote:
| You see, outside of programming, Windows 10 became my main OS
| when it released.
|
| Vista / 7 / 8 / 8.5 were really shitty in my opinon but Windows
| 10 "saved" Microsoft for me.
|
| I have an Edu/Business license and I absolutely love it. Group
| policies allowed me to avoid all the "auto-updates while doing
| work" from the start. I never had any issues with Windows 10.
| fortran77 wrote:
| Hey Jeff! I've been using your VirtualBox Centos builds/images
| for years. It's nice to see the face behind the Box.
| war1025 wrote:
| Does anyone know how a Pi4 with 8gb ram would hold up compared to
| a six year old mid-lower tier laptop?
|
| It's something I've been curious about for a while and really
| just waiting for the point where a RaspberryPi-type device is
| adequate for Facebook / Hackernews / Youtube, which is
| essentially what I use a laptop for at home.
| Narishma wrote:
| Even the 1 or 2GB models would be adequate for that.
| rcarmo wrote:
| The 4GB model can run Chromium and Firefox ESR fast enough for
| me to use Tweetdeck, access all manner of "work sites"
| (including O365 webmail), the Azure portal, and code a few
| things (but I am a heavy vim user and can live inside tmux).
|
| I use mine as a thin client, and have been fiddling with an
| Elementary image for it: https://github.com/rcarmo/elementary-
| os-unofficial (mine currently doesn't install correctly, but
| should take a couple more days to fix).
|
| YouTube is... passable. What really helps is booting from an
| SSD -- although my Acer Celeron is still faster.
| icecreammatt wrote:
| I just got an 8GB one and it works well enough for YouTube and
| light browsing but I couldn't use it as a dedicated machine.
| Certainly is more snappy than the older ones I have. Just
| visiting the YouTube home page seems to really be pushing it
| though.
| war1025 wrote:
| What I am hearing from this is that there are good odds the
| Pi5 will be a suitable light-duty desktop replacement.
| icecreammatt wrote:
| Pretty much, I think it just needs a slightly faster CPU to
| handle loading JavaScript heavy pages.
| Narishma wrote:
| By then the Javascript-heavy pages will probably be even
| heavier. You'll then be waiting for the Raspberry Pi 6 to
| run them.
| kvothe_ wrote:
| Next article: I replaced my car with Raspberry Pi... didn't work
| out.
|
| hmmmmmmm.
| paines wrote:
| Cool write up/experiment, and I can feel the pain with Linux and
| Sound issues. A few days ago I had a job interview and they used
| MS Teams. At first I was completly blown aways that there is a
| native linux app. For the first 5 minutes I tried to get sound
| input working but gave up. Luckily once you press the invite
| link, you can also choose to join via browser, and then sound
| input worked directly as expected.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| When I first bought a RPi, I used it exclusively for writing and
| coding for several days. Worked OK, so I was surprised about the
| whining in the article.
| somehnguy wrote:
| There is a big difference between working OK and working in a
| pleasant to use manner.
|
| Every time I've ever tried to use Linux as my daily driver it
| has worked OK. But it has never been pleasant to use and as
| such I never stick with it for too long.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| I usually use a MacBook but I also use a beefed up System76
| laptop with a good GPU, i7, and double the memory. Things
| like large Haskell builds, anything using TensorFlow, etc.
| runs so much faster than my MacBook there is no comparison.
|
| Everyone gets to choose their own setup, but to be honest, if
| I didn't like my Apple Mac+Watch+iPhone+iPad interop so much,
| I would always use the much faster Linux system. At my old
| job, I had the fastest current MacBook Pro configuration and
| it was much slower than my System76 rig.
| rvz wrote:
| Well, I guess running all those favourite Electron apps
| simultaneously on the Pi wouldn't be a wise thing to do since it
| would still grind to a slow and painful halt.
|
| I would just spare the Raspberry Pi from this Electron app stress
| testing torture as it evidently cannot handle many of them
| running at the same time.
| vr46 wrote:
| Funnily enough, to avoid all the cables and mess, I simply plug
| my Pi 4/8Gb straight into my iPad, then VNC or SSH into it, and
| instantly have a development environment. I would have to use
| some kind of hub to charge the iPad at the same time and plug an
| external monitor in, but the iPad Pro plus Smart Keyboard plus a
| Pi works brilliantly. (Where's my cheque, Tim?)
| jdminhbg wrote:
| Can you expand on that? How do you plug your Pi into the iPad,
| just a simple USB cable? Do you use an app for VNC/SSH?
| ascagnel_ wrote:
| As of fall 2019, You'd need a USB-C to ethernet adapter, and
| provide separate power for the RPi.
| colechristensen wrote:
| USB-C powers the RPi, network connectivity comes from wifi.
| jankotek wrote:
| you can run ethernet over usb-c, just enable tethering on
| ipad. pi has build in usb2 port in charging port.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Ah that's pretty cool that that works.
| j_autumn wrote:
| Probably using Ethernet over usb. I tried the same with a pi
| zero, one only need to change some config options in the boot
| partition.
|
| Weirdly I wasn't able to do get the Ethernet working.
| Couldn't ssh into the pi :(
|
| Maybe because of a cable problem, but I never found out.
| arthurmorgan wrote:
| This video should give you a good overview about what's
| possible with the RPi4 and iPad Pro.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR6sDcKo3V8
| varjag wrote:
| Coming up next: AtTiny13 vs Dell PowerEdge.
| skykooler wrote:
| I'm amazed that, given how long video editors have been around,
| there isn't something better than OpenShot or Kdenlive; I would
| have expected that someone would be working on the video
| equivalent of Gimp/Audacity/etc.
| tartoran wrote:
| Did you try ShotCut?
| wysewun wrote:
| I admire how knowledgeable Jeff is in different subject matters.
| Jeff is a major contributor in the ansible community and very
| helpful to everyone.
| MintelIE wrote:
| I've been using a Pi 4 4GB as a desktop for a couple months now.
| Considering that my other main computer is an ancient Thinkpad, I
| don't feel hampered by the speed. I used a Pi 3B for a desktop
| replacement for a while and while it was fine with my typical use
| (emacs+mostly command line) "modern" browsing was uncomfortably
| slow. It was perfectly capable of video playback in standard
| formats but there are problem sites using codecs which are not
| supported by the media decoder in the Pi. The situation with the
| Pi 4 is quite similar but it's just about fast enough for Youtube
| now.
|
| Most any school or office could switch to the Pi 4 seamlessly
| these days for sure though.
| dhosek wrote:
| >But, sadly, I don't think this year is the 'Year of the Linux
| desktop'. In general, I think 'Linux on the Desktop' for a
| mainstream audience is always going to be 20 years away, just
| like nuclear fusion.
|
| Yep. I know there are people who do Linux on the Desktop, but
| they're people with a lot more tolerance for day-to-day pain than
| me. I had a job about a decade ago where I had a linux desktop
| machine as my day-to-day working environment and it was a
| miserable experience. There just doesn't seem to be the will to
| make things otherwise.
| axegon_ wrote:
| As a full time linux user, it pains me to say it but there will
| never be a "Year of the Linux desktop". Not now, not in 100
| years. Linux is the weapon of choice for a very small audience
| and the proprietary giants are simply not interested in a niche
| market. Some people can get away with using a raspberry pi as a
| main computer(myself included, given that I only use a browser
| and vim for work). But again - that's just me. Many of my co-
| workers rely on heavy IDEs so that rules it out for them.
| colordrops wrote:
| Default Linux desktop is painful. If you set things up properly
| and learn a thing or two it can be less painful than the
| alternatives. I much prefer my custom xmonad setup over mac and
| windows, which (literally and figuratively) painfully require
| more mouse interactions and setup that can't be easily captured
| in config files that I can check into version control.
| dhosek wrote:
| > Default Linux desktop is painful. If you set things up
| properly and learn a thing or two it can be less painful
|
| Which is precisely my point. Even default Windows isn't so
| painful.
|
| There's also the problem of applications. Most of my dev
| toolkit is available cross-platform, but I do more than dev
| on my computers.
| glogla wrote:
| Linux on the desktop works pretty well in my experience.
| Desktops have wired networks, mainatream hardware, mouses, stay
| connected to the same display all the time, headphones are
| wired, and power management is nice to have.
|
| Where it gets annoying is "linux on random laptop". Suddenly
| perfect power management is a must, there's an expectation of
| sleep instead of shutting down, networks are wireless,
| headphones snd keyboards and mice are bluetooth, displays
| change all the time, you have a touchpad to contend with, etc
| -- all of this is very driver dependent and manufacturers don't
| care about linux at all.
|
| It's not that linux haven't gotten better - it had, but the
| problem also got a lot more difficult.
| somewhereoutth wrote:
| Linux Mint (on an old Inspiron 5530, currently chained to the
| ground) and the cheapest Ideapad (for travel) works for me.
| Perhaps there were one or two issues at the beginning? If there
| were I can't remember. I can keep identical installs on both
| which means stuff that worked at home will likely work on the
| road. Mint installation is so straightforward now that,
| personal data aside, I can consider install almost throwaway -
| it's just not a big step anymore.
|
| As for the RPi I wish they'd make more effort for it to be a
| better kiosk or headless device - lack of built in safe
| shutdown makes me reach for arduino where possible. I don't
| anyone is going to use an RPi to replace their laptop or
| desktop anytime soon.
| Cerium wrote:
| Things have changed a lot. Over the last year the company I
| work for has transitioned a couple hundred developers from
| Windows desktops to Linux desktops and it has been surprisingly
| smooth. Much better than an experiment I ran myself a number of
| years prior.
| adarioble wrote:
| I have seen a fair amount of successful transitions. My
| company develops open source software and our development
| team is on Linux/Mac. Works a treat. Sales/Marketing/etc -
| Windows mostly with some more adventurous users using Mac.
| Linux is still not there yet, for an end-user overall nice
| experience.
| colechristensen wrote:
| If you buy hardware designed by the manufacturer to work with
| linux then most things are just fine.
| m0xte wrote:
| This. It's why I spend my entire day on windows even though all
| my targets are Linux.
| StillBored wrote:
| I'm running linux desktops these days, but for ~15 years my
| linux development enviroment was windows+putty+exceed/xming.
| People would ask me why and for a long time I would close the
| lid on my laptop and reopen it, or point to my monitor
| layout.
|
| A lot of that stuff works these days, but there have been
| plenty of times Ive had issues which burned a whole day
| fixing. In the latter cases, I've just been left wondering
| how people who can't fix their own kernel/X/systemd/whatever
| bugs manage.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Meh, I've gone from doing webdev work on a Linux desktop
| (Kubuntu) to doing general office work on Win10. The pain is
| real.
|
| Mind you it's on a Microsoft computer, and with corp IT, but
| it's always broken and the idiosyncrasies are infuriating.
| m0xte wrote:
| Gah I feel that. I have resisted corporate IT much to their
| dismay.
| stuxnet79 wrote:
| A lot of strides have been made over the past decade. The
| ecosystem has had it's fair share of problems, but I've been
| using Linux as my daily driver for the past 5 years with no
| major complaints. I'm typing this on a Ubuntu 16.04 install and
| the only issue I frequently run into is bluetooth which I
| believe has since been fixed for 18.04 / 20.04.
| the_af wrote:
| 10 years ago, Ubuntu became the Linux on the Desktop for me. I
| do everything with it. Browse the net, watch movies, play
| games, develop software. Everything, and I couldn't be happier.
|
| The Linux on the Desktop arrived a decade ago for me, so your
| assertion puzzles me deeply.
| StillBored wrote:
| I'm not really sure why there is so much "ubuntu" love. Of
| the three distro's I run/try out regularly on desktop/laptop
| class hardware (opensuse/fedora & ubuntu) I regularly find
| ubuntu to be the inferior choice.
|
| My personal "linux" laptops have been on various flavors of
| opensuse since the 11.x releases when I discovered for the
| first time, that linux was actually doing everything
| correctly (backlight dimming, standby/hibernate, wifi, sound,
| accelerated graphics, docking/undocking) out of the box.
| (I've been running linux in various forms since the 1990s).
|
| Opensuse, is not been perfect by any means, I had to hack the
| bluetooth driver with the latest dell when I initially
| installed it, but within a year or so that got fixed too.
|
| So, there really isn't any "ubuntu" magic, and I might go so
| far as to say if you want really good support on the latest
| hardware you should be running fedora. But in general all the
| major distros are working roughly the same at this point with
| one or the other working better on any given piece of
| hardware.
| the_af wrote:
| I'm not saying Ubuntu is the best choice. I used Slackware,
| Red Hat, Mandrake, and Ubuntu. First Kubuntu, then became
| disappointed with KDE so went to straight Ubuntu.
|
| I'm not going to argue about distros. I works _magically_
| for me. It might not for you, and that 's fine.
|
| My point was: my year of Linux on the Desktop arrived 10
| years ago.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Shocker: A $75 multi-purpose device could not adequately replace
| his dedicated $1500 device.
|
| I don't know what this was intended to prove, exactly?
| finnthehuman wrote:
| Yeah, I don't get it either. Has the Raspberry Pi marketing
| changed significantly that I'm unaware of? I own a few
| raspberry pis and never saw them as more as either a minimalist
| toy, cheap learning tool, or easy-entry DIY embedded platform.
| cannam wrote:
| An 8G Pi-4 is a pretty powerful computer by Linux-running
| historical standards. This seems really about application
| compatibility, not power.
| sukilot wrote:
| Most people run modern software and data not historical
| software and data.
| colesantiago wrote:
| I'm not sure why anyone would do this other than to waste time,
| to each to their own I guess...
| Avicebron wrote:
| Sometimes tinkering with electronics for it's own sake is a
| form of reward. Building anything really is an experience in
| of itself
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| From actually reading the content of the article, it seems
| like it would've been better titled, "I tried to use a
| Raspberry Pi 4 to do my dev work for a day." And that might
| have better captured the point, since I imagine a number of
| us have experimented with using a Pi for work, for personal
| projects, etc. in the past.
|
| But the current title to my mind is a tad clickbaity, for the
| implied comparison I noted already.
| pizza234 wrote:
| The point is different, on a different reading.
|
| > I guess one point I should make is that for almost every
| piece of software I wanted to use, I had to spend a lot of time
| just trying to find any that would work on Linux--then
| narrowing that to 'on Linux ARM64'. And then I had to usually
| spend a few minutes compiling it from source, placing my own
| shortcuts on the system (so I wouldn't have to open a Terminal
| every time I wanted to check Twitter), etc.
|
| > All of these issues (4K difficulties, having to compile apps,
| not finding apps) are exacerbated by the fact that the Pi runs
| on ARM, but it is still a problem in the wider Linux ecosystem.
|
| The point is that the above could apply to a $1500 ARM
| computer.
|
| However, I suspect that he's not very experienced with Linux,
| and ultimately makes a comparison that doesn't make much sense.
|
| > Anyways, on my Mac, I'm used to Shift + Option + dash for em,
| or Option + dash for en, but we're getting off the point.
|
| On GTK, one can use a compose sequence for that. There you go:
| https://askubuntu.com/a/31265.
|
| > All of these issues (4K difficulties, having to compile apps,
| not finding apps) are exacerbated by the fact that the Pi runs
| on ARM, but it is still a problem in the wider Linux ecosystem.
|
| "Having to compile apps" and "not finding apps" are not
| problems in the wider Linux ecosystem. There's an enormous
| amount of stuff in the repositories of the main distros, and
| it's prepackaged. And there are external repos for what's not
| in there. The software one really has to compile manually is a
| very small minority (again: in the wider Linux ecosystem, that
| is, on x86).
|
| For the 4K, I can't speak, as I have no experience.
|
| Ultimately, using ARM for a desktop machine with specific
| software requirements doesn't make much sense; in particular,
| because his work(flow) revolves around closed-source software.
| However, that's what the explicit target of the article, so I
| can't really complain about it.
| avip wrote:
| (45$ include shipping)
|
| Edit: wrong price quoted for the 2GB model.
| penagwin wrote:
| That's the 2GB model
| hyperbovine wrote:
| $75 for the 8gb model. Plus shipping
| eeZah7Ux wrote:
| And yet many years ago I was using Debian on a laptop with 32MB
| of RAM. I was using the "Awesome" lightweight desktop and
| spending 99% of the time in the terminal.
|
| SSH to work on remote servers, Vim for development, git, IRC,
| text email, man and less for documentation (installed locally),
| rsync. Occasional browsing with Dillo.
|
| Believe me or not, I miss the productivity of not being forced to
| use tons of stuff in browser.
| deathhand wrote:
| This is immensely interesting to me. This is a developer who is
| familiar with linux servers and infrastructure but in unaware of
| all the linux desktop oddities that come with it.
| Mr_Sweater wrote:
| Why is it odd? The linux server and desktop worlds don't mix at
| all.
| avip wrote:
| I'm "familiar with linux servers and infrastructure" and would
| have little idea how to setup linux as my working env for
| things like editing video. Seems completely orthogonal.
| deathhand wrote:
| You are familiar with libraries and dependencies then. You
| know that its a very complicated mess of spaghetti. You also
| know that video editing is a very high use of a computer.
| Even for profit companies like Adobe has trouble with current
| hardware[1]
|
| I get you wanted to write a blog article. Content creation is
| cool. I don't think you get where computers and technology
| has come from and necessary where its going. That Raspberry
| PI would be great for programming GPIO pins to literally do
| anything for you. This is my favorite explanation of
| technology[2] and honestly amazed that any of it works.
|
| [1]- https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-
| pro/cc-2020-super-la... [2]-
| http://bretthard.in/post/dizzying-but-invisible-depth
| kevinsimper wrote:
| Don't the Raspberry Pi 4 support 4kp60?
| Narishma wrote:
| I think it does but only on 1 monitor.
| andolanra wrote:
| I'm not sure why the conclusion is, "Linux on the Desktop isn't
| possible," when the big blocker the author had was pretty
| consistently finding and installing software compatible with a
| small ARM64 machine. (That's not to say it's not a valid
| conclusion to draw in general: just that it's a bit of a non-
| sequitur for this article.)
| geerlingguy wrote:
| I didn't say that. I said the fabled "year of the Linux
| desktop" is a long ways off, in terms of being a potential
| option for the vast audience of users who currently own a Mac
| or Windows computer.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Most people use their computer for Facebook and email, and
| Linux gets that job done just fine. My heuristic is that if
| ChromeOS would suit a user's needs well, so would a properly
| configured Ubuntu LTS. I've put it to the test with a few
| family members without complaints.
| onli wrote:
| That's really not a fair judgement. Like wazoox said, you
| used completely untypical hardware for a desktop system. And
| on top of that you did use neither a typical distribution nor
| a modern Desktop environment. For example, you wouldn't run
| into the multimedia software issues with something like
| Ubuntu with a KDE or Gnome desktop. And with something a bit
| less mainstream like Arch or void you'd have a great
| foundation for more alternative setups (like a custom desktop
| environment with software you selected for yourself).
|
| Look for example at
| https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/kubuntu-focal.html.
| wazoox wrote:
| But the vast audience wouldn't use such an ARM64 machine for
| that and won't have these problems. The audio problems for
| instance that you encountered with all applications are
| obviously related to the hardware, not Linux. Even on my
| weird desktop running slackware I run Zoom, Jit.si, Cheese,
| Skype, etc without any problem.
|
| It's precisely the other way around, I've seen several
| articles recently about the fact that Linux adoption on the
| desktop has soared rapidly, and you see Lenovo and Dell
| supporting Linux on a large number of machines nowadays.
|
| The only thing you showed is that there is no desktop-grade
| ARM64 Linux machine available.
| IshKebab wrote:
| > The audio problems for instance that you encountered with
| all applications are obviously related to the hardware, not
| Linux.
|
| When people say "Linux on the desktop" they mean "Linux on
| _most common desktop hardware_ ". They don't mean "Linux
| but only on one carefully tested machine".
|
| A Logitech C920 especially is very common and uses standard
| USB audio, so it _should_ work. The fact that it doesn 't
| could feasibly be a firmware bug that happens to work on
| Windows for some reason, but given how janky Linux audio is
| in general, I think it is almost certainly a bug in Linux
| (or PulseAudio or whatever if you're going to get
| nitpicky).
| Jtsummers wrote:
| > "Linux on the Desktop isn't possible"
|
| That's not his conclusion. This is:
|
| > So, in summary, would I recommend the Pi 4 as a worthy
| general computer for anyone? Definitely no. Would I recommend
| it as a worthy general computer for a certain subset of
| computer users. Definitely yes!
| ViViDboarder wrote:
| A Linux desktop is far less "painful" when it's on an
| equivalently powered device as you are used to. I wouldn't plug a
| monitor into an iPhone and claim Apple desktops are painful.
|
| The real takeaway to me is "ARM desktops are a few years away".
| rcarmo wrote:
| Actually, you'd probably find the iPhone outperforms your
| current laptop (Assuming average 2y-old laptop). It just
| doesn't have the same UX, or the ability to run desktop apps.
| adamredwoods wrote:
| I remember when people were trying to do day-to-day work on their
| smartphones, then the iPad came out and they started to work on
| those, which eventually led to the iPad Pro and Microsoft Surface
| Pro and now fully capable of doing day-to-day work on it.
|
| Keeping pushing the boundaries!
| adarioble wrote:
| With the slight difference that any of these boundaries pushers
| (never did) cost $75. Not now not then.
| rubatuga wrote:
| The author is right, none of these problems exist on macOS, and
| if you want the year of the Linux desktop to finally come, it
| will have to solve all of the issues highlighted. The commenters
| aren't going to be there to defend the true use-cases of "ARM
| Linux Desktop" to the end-user, so expect them to be completely
| turned off by this experience.
| wazoox wrote:
| None of these problems exist on my XPS running Ubuntu, either.
| Of course when going to a 75$ not-desktop-grade machine from a
| $1500 Mac you'll find some compromises along the way. That
| comment doesn't make the slightest sense, frankly.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| I remember saying in 2000 to someone that Linux cannot
| simultaneously have a reputation as "elite" and being for
| hackers and also have its Year of the Desktop.
|
| Of course, we ask so much more of desktops now than when I was
| running a beta of NT 5, so I think all of the goalposts have
| moved (or perhaps a rising tide has lifted many boats). Still,
| whenever I try to set up a machine that is the equivalent of my
| "not very thinking hard, screwing around with my brain off"
| Windows setup, I keep coming across this friction, a drag to
| any momentum I develop.
|
| I think the issues are multiple, complex, and fairly
| entrenched. It's a shame because I would _like_ to be able to
| set up machines for friends that are familiar, easy to use, and
| so forth, but my occasional efforts have been stymied.
| julianeon wrote:
| If you have a teeny-tiny amount of money - like, $75, the cost of
| a Pi - and you want to get the best work computer/laptop and
| developer experience you can, for your buck - you'd be dumb to
| buy a Pi.
|
| Instead, get a used laptop - say, a Thinkpad. Install Linux on
| it.
|
| There you go: the best computer you can get, performance-wise,
| for $75.
| pbreit wrote:
| I thought this $120 tablet + keyboard looked interesting but
| wondering if 2GB of RAM is going to cut it?
|
| https://store.pine64.org/?product=pinetab-10-1-linux-tablet-...
| megameter wrote:
| A fast SSD does wonders for making lower memory machines feel
| responsive. I do useful work on a 4GB machine running Win10.
| There is lag when web browsing, but it's easy to adjust to.
|
| That said, it won't cut it if your applications actually do
| need more than 2GB at a time. And the Pine device doesn't list
| support for SATA or M.2 either, so you can't count on the SSD
| being a screamer.
| abnry wrote:
| On Ubuntu with an Intel processor I have been very happy with the
| app ecosystem. I suspect if the Raspberry p Pi had an AMD or
| Intel chip it'd be less painful.
| sitkack wrote:
| Most of this has to do with Linux and not the Pi itself. I use a
| mac and a linux system side by side, desktop linux is still a
| tire fire. This is coming from a person who used to run a FreeBSD
| laptop in the early 2000s.
| proverbialbunny wrote:
| Maybe it depends on what software you're using?
|
| I use both OSX (MBP) and Linux Mint as my desktop. Everything I
| use works on both. Both are stable and solid and work
| perfectly. I'm on a 4k60 monitor.
|
| The only thing I had to do is have my graphics card do vsync on
| Linux. Software vsync on Linux is horrible. GPU vsync has Linux
| runs smooth as butter the same as smooth as OSX. I also had to
| manually increase my dpi and font sizes to match my monitor.
| zeta0134 wrote:
| I feel the opposite. Maybe it's a matter of the software I use?
| I find OSX to be clunky and obtuse, filled with notification
| spam and weird windowing behavior. Linux desktop (Cinnamon in
| my case) gets out of my way and let's me work.
|
| That said, the Pi _really_ is not up to the task. It can be
| made usable by booting it from an SSD, but it remains somewhat
| underpowered and has a lot of trouble running even moderately
| heavy utilities.
| mickw wrote:
| If the author did all of this in one day as a OSX/Linux novice,
| hat's off! Took me a good bit of playing around to get fluid
| using Linux for the first time
| ex3ndr wrote:
| I didn't get what's wrong with H.264 since it present in every pi
| even on pi zero.
| adarioble wrote:
| With Windows practically giving licenses away, Apple coming with
| MacOS, cheap chromebooks coming with chromeOS, I really don't get
| this "Linux on a desktop move", especially when it is $75 device
| + $250 of accessories.
|
| That said I love Pi, have it for home automation and media
| server, amazing piece of tech, NOT a desktop replacement and for
| the most part it's not even aiming at that.
| jankotek wrote:
| OS with decent and predictable support are not easy to find.
| Windows can change overnight after a big update. Most devices
| you mentioned are junk, since ssd is soldered on motherboard.
| 0x0 wrote:
| Where can I get a free Windows license for my Macbook?
| saagarjha wrote:
| Anecdotally, I've found you don't really need one if you're
| fine with a nag in the bottom right corner.
| nonamenoslogan wrote:
| Surprisingly enough I've found nearly any Windows 7 or 8's
| sticker license will work for 10--find any old laptop/desktop
| with one and you'll have a "free" license.
| hidiegomariani wrote:
| The only purpose I could see raspberry pi in, is as a development
| env where you can ssh into and do work as a pure Linux kernel.
|
| If I was to use an arm desktop full time it would be microsoft
| surface pro x (although with its quirks) having much more support
| and apps
|
| Also Apple is planning to move MacBook line to arm although time
| will tell whether that will work out or not. In the meanwhile we
| might need to stick to x86 architectures for a while
| cannam wrote:
| Although not wrong, and full of interesting details, this is a
| really puzzling article. It feels a little like writing about how
| you couldn't get your toaster to boil noodles. (Though not as
| unsafe.)
|
| I use Linux as my main desktop and have always found it very
| pleasant, but if my main thing was video editing, I wouldn't try
| to do it with Linux on ARM64 and then grumble when it turned out
| not to work very well.
|
| (Of course what makes the article worth reading is the fact that
| its author has tried just that, and reported on it. It's an
| interesting report! It's simply odd that the article seems so
| disappointed, since surely few readers would have expected any
| other result.)
| brundolf wrote:
| > If your use of the computer is more oriented towards the
| browser, a code editor, and the command line (e.g. backend web
| development, infrastructure development, writing/blogging, and
| the like), the Pi is perfectly adequate, and with 8GB of RAM,
| Chromium runs just fine, even if you have a bunch of tabs open.
|
| The author does a good job of going into the separate use-
| cases.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| A colleague has effectively abandoned local dev. His "local"
| is Digital Ocean. If the project is critial he locks it down
| by only letting his IP in. Gives new meaning to "virtual
| desktop."
|
| I'm sold on the idea but I will likely go with VS Code
| instead. He uses Vim. God bless him :)
|
| In this context the Pi feels intriguing. I'm going to run
| this past him.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| There are some plugins (I haven't used them) for using VS
| Code with remote instances. You can also use sshfs to mount
| the remote system and use VS Code as if the files were on
| your local system.
|
| [0] https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/ssh
|
| [1] https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-
| to-use-...
| heavyset_go wrote:
| I run VS Code in a container on an SBC with no complaints.
| tyingq wrote:
| For me, a used USFF x86 box fits the bill better. It's not
| hard to find a $~125 Lenovo m93p "tiny". With an i5 x86-64,
| 8GB, and a small, but real SSD.
|
| At first, $125 seems like a lot more than the 8GB Rpi will
| cost you, but things like a power supply, enclosure, and an
| SSD add up.
| bitwize wrote:
| There was a bloke (I think it was the Explaining Computers guy)
| who tried editing one of his YT vids on the 4 GiB Pi 4 (with
| USB-attached SSD for the video data), and found it serviceable.
| Obviously not ideal, but it was up to the job.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| I wish the lessons of OP's reality check were better
| established in our industry's collective consciousness.
|
| Pis are great, but I can't count how many times I've seen a
| raspberry pi stuck in an application where its strengths have
| no value and its limitations have severe consequences. The
| "$100/hr developer waiting for a $5 computer to finish being
| slow" is a classic. Bonus points for "laggy $5 kiosk in a $1MM
| expo outing." The most damage probably comes from semi-
| permanent customer-facing installs where the pi gets to inflict
| misery on every person passing through.
|
| Articles like this help "responsibly consume" the raspberry pi,
| and that's something we can all benefit from.
| unixhero wrote:
| This is because suther of OP is an absolute clueless
| "technology author".
| Avicebron wrote:
| He seems to have at least several years of experience working
| in software on his about page. Not sure if that registers as
| clueless.
| cannam wrote:
| That's nonsense, and I'm ashamed to have written a comment
| that could yield a reply like this. If that is also how my
| comment reads, then I am sorry.
|
| The original article is a good one. The author is obviously
| not at all clueless. It should be possible to do a day's work
| on a computer of similar spec to an 8G Raspberry Pi.
|
| That the article was puzzling springs, probably, from
| familiarity with trying to switch from one platform and
| architecture to another without any help from the OS in terms
| of emulation or other support. It's hard to do.
| 0xCMP wrote:
| Video editing was at the bottom of the article after many other
| problems he encountered.
|
| I do not use Linux as my desktop anymore, but I have, and every
| time I try I run in to all kinds of issues like this.
| cocoa19 wrote:
| I recently started doing video editing with blender and it
| has been a pleasant experience. I have a beefy computer
| though, not a toaster.
|
| I own an RPi4, and it stutters doing something basic like
| 1080p video playback on VLC, so not ideal for multimedia.
| Dahoon wrote:
| > it stutters doing something basic like 1080p video
| playback on VLC
|
| That is interesting. What bitrate are the files?
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Encoding is probably more important. Without acceleration
| from a hardware codec, decoding modern videos is CPU
| intensive.
| fortran77 wrote:
| Ok, maybe you can't boil noodles in a toaster, but you can cook
| a steak on an electric clothes iron:
|
| https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kbx3dv/how-to-cook-like-a...
| cztomsik wrote:
| In my experience, linux is (unfortunately) only good for
| running server apps. Ubuntu is good but it's still like 20ys in
| the past when compared to macos (and that's including how macos
| gets worse with every new release). There are so many things
| wrong or half-finished, inconsistent (3 ways to copy/paste, no
| native GUI fw/toolkit, vsync/video/browser tearing), I'm afraid
| to install updates because sometimes it won't boot up and I'll
| need to figure out what went wrong this time (instead of doing
| what I wanted). Linux ppl like to say it's because of HW but
| no, it's because they don't care or they have different goals
| but then I don't understand why the same people often don't
| understand why linux is not more widespread.
|
| If you want to get job done, get a mac, it's still the best
| choice (unfortunately, I don't like it but it's the least evil
| - W7 was good too but W10 spy/adware is ew)
| nine_k wrote:
| I use _desktop_ Linux for last ~20 years. I don 't use Gnome;
| my choice is simpler things like Xfce, and Window Maker
| before that.
|
| I find the fact that I can configure it my way utterly
| important, and performance-increasing, for me. This is
| exactly what I dislike about MacOS: it is very opnionated and
| rather inflexible. (I also see zero vsync tearing, and I'm
| fine with GTK2, GTK3, and Qt all look reasonably consistent
| under the theme I can and did customize myself.)
|
| You are correct, MacOS and desktop Linux have different
| target audiences, with distinctly different preferences,
| neither of which is "more correct". This is not Linux "20
| years behind" MacOS; it's often away in a completely
| different direction. (Though yes, Gnome folks try to imitate
| MacOS, and they are forever behind by construction, because
| they are chasing, not blazing new trails.)
| SloopJon wrote:
| I'm not sure what the author's background is, but if he did all
| of this in one day as a Mac-using Linux newbie, I'm actually
| pretty impressed. There are references to previous posts about
| the Pi, but it's not clear whether he's used Linux as a desktop
| O/S before.
|
| I'm using Ubuntu on a 4 GB Pi for some Docker experiments,
| because I couldn't get ARM64 images to work on Raspbian. Is
| Raspbian the best distribution for the desktop, or is there
| something better for a 4 or 8 GB Pi?
| hellcow wrote:
| For what it's worth, I had luck starting with Raspbian, then
| changing the apt sources to Debian sid (unstable) and upgrading
| without issues. The default Raspbian desktop environment
| becomes buggy, but XFCE4 works perfectly.
|
| If you want to run Debian on your Pi4, that's a pretty easy
| path.
| [deleted]
| mikepurvis wrote:
| He's not all a newbie; among other things he maintains some
| well regarded Ansible roles for things like deploying Jenkins.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| I've been using Linux on the server side exclusively for
| years and twice before tried to switch to Ubuntu and Fedora
| (two separate times during Apple's butterfly-switch years).
|
| So I do have some background but not a PhD in Linux in the
| Desktop.
|
| What I've found is that if you're mostly dealing with
| programming, dev work, and maybe some more specialized
| graphics work (not just twiddling with artwork and media
| using the computer as an artistic tool), almost any Linux
| desktop may be entirely adequate.
|
| But if you do like (somewhat more) consistent UIs and a deep
| catalog (more than 2 in every category) of _very good_ apps,
| your much better off in Mac /Windows :(
|
| I'd like that to change but just like Fusion energy my
| excitement will not make it happen any sooner than 20 years
| from now. (I could've said that same thing the first time I
| tried Red Hat for my workstation (against Windows 3.1) in
| like 1996...).
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _But if you do like (somewhat more) consistent UIs and a
| deep catalog (more than 2 in every category) of very good
| apps, your much better off in Mac /Windows :(_
|
| The flip side of this is that the skills and apps you learn
| in the open source ecosystem have staying power.
|
| I spent a lot of time learning to use old Photoshop
| versions pretty well, but these days I don't have a
| subscription with Adobe, so those skills have been lost to
| its walled garden.
|
| However, I also spent a lot of time using GIMP during that
| period, and I can still leverage that knowledge 15 years
| later for free.
| cawlin wrote:
| I doubt up to date GIMP has many more features than
| Photoshop CS2 which was a pay once license :)
| mikepurvis wrote:
| Oh yeah, I hear you. I switched from Windows XP to OS X in
| the 10.4 days, and I definitely thought that if I ever left
| the Apple ecosystem, it would be to go to full time Linux
| on the desktop.
|
| But then 12 years later, along came WSL, native ssh/scp, a
| getting-there package management story, and I ended up
| coming back to Windows 10 (power management on the XPS
| series seems to suck no matter what OS you run, though).
| goblin89 wrote:
| There were a couple of Django-based webapps that I worked on
| a year or two ago. I wanted to have basic deployment
| automation fast and went with Ansible; geerlingguy's Postgres
| roles worked like a clock.
| kovek wrote:
| Thanks tons to geerlingguy!
| SweetestRug wrote:
| I have had good success using Manjaro on my Pi 4 with 4 GB of
| RAM. It is an altogether vastly better experience than using
| Raspbian, in my opinion - even when using KDE. Docker, Code
| OSS, and a ton of tools were up and running right away with
| pacman and yay. But it will never be as fast as my Dell XPS 13
| DE, and it's definitely not designed to replace it. I have been
| extremely impressed with what I can do on the Pi 4, but it is
| certainly not as quick or as able as a full blow i5/i7 based
| laptop. Apples and Oranges.
| trynewideas wrote:
| While I get that he wants things to Just Work for things the Pi's
| not designed to do, that's not the goal or design of the Pi in
| any sense whatsoever. The hypothesis that a Pi would be feasible
| for his workflow was set up to fail before he started doing
| anything.
| Apofis wrote:
| This is more of a comparison between MacOS and Linux than a
| Macbook and a Pi.
| KingMachiavelli wrote:
| Many of the issues and personal choices made where due to the
| jump between a non-linux OS to a Linux OS.
|
| Even though the 'default' desktop environment is light weight, a
| tiling WM just as i3 or dwm would run perfectly on the Pi. Light
| weight application alternatives such as qutebrowser (instead of
| Chrome) and Spacemacs (instead of VSCode) would also make using a
| Pi a lot easier.
|
| The lack of 4k@60Hz is pretty annoying altough it actually might
| not be noticable with a tiling WM due to the lack of animations.
| newsbinator wrote:
| It seems to not be so much of a 4k@60Hz problem as a "this
| should just work" problem.
|
| > The first thing I did--which took almost 30 minutes--was try
| to figure out how to get 4K (at 30 Hz--the Pi can't output 60
| Hz over its HDMI connection) working with a consistent font
| size across all the applications and system controls.
|
| > The settings in the Appearance preferences seemed to apply to
| some window chrome and buttons, but not internally in
| applications. So, for example, the File Manager's main window
| had readable text after I increased the font size at 4K
| resolution, but in order to make filenames and other listings
| readable, I had to go into the File Manager's settings and
| increase the font size there.
|
| > Same for Terminal. And Chromium. And... you get the idea.
|
| What a heck of a thing to have to worry about in 2020.
| makomk wrote:
| The stupid thing is that I think this might actually have
| regressed in Gnome/GTK+ over the years due to them being more
| focused on Wayland and semi-intentionally breaking the old
| X11 DPI code.
| aduitsis wrote:
| The RPi4 is actually fully capable of 4k @ 60Hz, as long as
| there is no 2nd monitor. If there's a second monitor, then two
| 4k displays at 30Hz each.
|
| A 10" google search can yield https://www.raspberrypi.org/docum
| entation/configuration/hdmi..., where it is all explained.
|
| On a general note, the RPi4 is in my opinion the most exciting
| computing piece of news there was in 2019, plus the recent
| arrival of RPi4 8Gb gives the option for even more RAM. This is
| a sub-100EUR quad-core RISC device that can surpass desktop
| class machines from a few years back in many ways.
|
| The last 64-bit RISC device with a normal desktop I could sit
| in front of and work, was a Sun Ultra 10 back in 2000. I think
| the RPi4 comes pretty sweet close to being a normal desktop
| class machine.
| Dahoon wrote:
| >The RPi4 is actually fully capable of 4k @ 60Hz
|
| It depends. It doesn't like 4k even at 30hz if you are
| watching a movie. Not unless it is compressed to blockniess.
| djmobley wrote:
| Dependent on the software you're using, encoding of the
| video, throughput of the network/storage device, etc. but
| the Pi 4 has hardware decoding support for H.265 up to
| 4Kp60.
|
| I've had no issues playing back 4K @ 30Hz using LibreELEC
| on a Pi 4.
| groby_b wrote:
| Given that Macs (at least the good old trashcan) also can't do
| 4k@60Hz over HDMI, that was the one comparison that struck me
| as somewhat unfair.
| filoleg wrote:
| >Macs (at least the good old trashcan) also can't do 4k@60Hz
| over HDMI
|
| I cannot speak for the old trashcan ones (assuming this is a
| reference to the desktop Mac Pro), but this has not been true
| for at least the last few generations of Macbook Pro laptops.
| You just gotta make sure your cable supports HDMI2 and that
| you aren't using one of those multi-port dongles.
|
| Finding a cable/adapter that allows 4k@60hz on macbooks might
| be tricky though (as evidenced by a lot of threads on the
| topic I found on reddit and Apple forums). I lucked out, and
| the first cable I bought (direct USB-C to HDMI, not a dongle)
| ended up working swimmingly with no issues.
| zdw wrote:
| Not sure why you're being downvoted - the 2013 Mac Pro has an
| HDMI 1.4 port:
| https://support.apple.com/kb/SP697?locale=en_US
|
| Which is only good for a 30Hz refresh rate at UHD 3840x2160
| resolutions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.4
|
| You could use adapters on the Thunderbolt ports to get 4k60
| support on that hardware.
| groby_b wrote:
| Yep. And I'm using those Tunderbolt ports for my daily
| work, but . (And, you know, it's nice that you can drive a
| large amount of screens with the ports, but I was
| specifically referring to the HDMI implementation)
|
| And digging into the specs of the RBpi4, it seems the HDMI
| port actually _does_ support 4kp60, which makes this whole
| thing even funnier :)
| [deleted]
| ArtWomb wrote:
| Related: Building a Raspberry Pi Cluster
|
| https://magpi.raspberrypi.org/articles/build-a-raspberry-pi-...
|
| And: Raspberry Pi Vulkan Driver Makes Progress But Long Road
| Remains
|
| https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Raspberry-Pi...
|
| I had no idea til this week the RP4-B had dual 4k hdmi output.
| And I love the idea of a cluster for testing microservices. But
| regarding graphics performance I think I would opt for NVidia's
| Jetson Nano.
| jankotek wrote:
| I would strugle the same way on macbook, never used this
| platform. Pi4 is fairly nice desktop. I use it as a backup
| workstation while traveling.
| Havoc wrote:
| Title seems a little cringey.
|
| The 8GB model isn't going to perform much better on these tasks
| that the 4GB on that has been available forever and the $75
| device is not a suitable replacement for a $1,299 device.
|
| I do use Jeff's work to determine what SD card to buy...but the
| above has rattled my confidence a bit.
| Avicebron wrote:
| The title is classic click bait, looks like he's good at it
| since right below it he has a youtube video of the project.
| It's probably a hustle for some views/ad revenue and not meant
| to be a serious project where he legitimately thinks he's
| building a mac in his room.
| sukilot wrote:
| At a penny for a thousand views, that doesn't seem a smart
| play.
| Avicebron wrote:
| I don't know his CPM, but a quick google search reveals the
| average (2018) CPM to be $2.80. I agree not a lot, but hey,
| worth the passive income probably.
| Avicebron wrote:
| EDIT: he's on the front page of HN, guess the bait worked..
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