[HN Gopher] Diluting blood plasma rejuvenates tissue, reverses a...
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Diluting blood plasma rejuvenates tissue, reverses aging in mice
Author : hirundo
Score : 66 points
Date : 2020-06-17 20:17 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (news.berkeley.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.berkeley.edu)
| ecpottinger wrote:
| This seems like a simple thing to test. It is just you need some
| time to see if it works.
| mmastrac wrote:
| Would we see the same effects from donating blood?
| macrolime wrote:
| Seems there may be some effect at least
|
| https://sciencenordic.com/body-death-denmark/frequent-blood-...
| [deleted]
| hprotagonist wrote:
| _Meanwhile, this paper has also just come out, which looks at
| whether such effects are due to factors coming in from the young
| animals or things being removed from the old ones. The authors,
| from UC-Berkeley and the California Pacific Medical Center, are
| looking at what they call a "neutral blood exchange". They
| replace half the blood volume in mice (both young and old) with
| isotonic saline plus added albumin protein. The effect of this on
| the older animals was also significant, with noticeable
| improvements in wound-healing ability, neurogenesis, and fibrosis
| /fatty deposits in the liver. The younger mice were not really
| changed by the treatment. The authors tried several control
| experiments to make sure that this wasn't an effect being driven
| by added albumin protein, and it apparently isn't. They conclude
| that removal and substitution of old plasma "is sufficient for
| most if not all observed positive effects on muscle, brain and
| liver" in parabiosis-type experiments. It doesn't exclude the
| idea of there being beneficial factors in young plasma, but
| suggests that this is not the driver of many of the results seen.
| (It would be very interesting to check the DNA methylation status
| of various tissues before and after this treatment!)
|
| The paper wastes no time in noting that therapeutic plasma
| exchange (TPE) is already an FDA-approved process (as witness
| convalescent plasma treatment in the current coronavirus
| epidemic), and it says that Phase II and III human trials are
| being planned on the basis of these results. That will be quite
| interesting to watch, says the 58-year-old dude writing this
| blog. Overall, I still find such results hard to believe, but at
| the same time they seem to be showing up from multiple
| experiments. This second paper especially seems to be a very
| testable hypothesis indeed. That's a good thing, because in the
| end, it's going to be reproducible human clinical data that
| decide whether this is real or not - so I'm glad that feasible
| experiments will allow such data to be collected. Something to
| watch. . ._
|
| https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/06/12/yo...
| prmph wrote:
| So, blood-letting[1] works?
|
| [1] https://www.history.com/news/a-brief-history-of-bloodletting
| troughway wrote:
| Lovely anecdote:
|
| A relative of mine has seasonal headaches that they experience,
| and they have told me that the way they relieve them is to go
| and donate blood.
|
| Works every time, without a hitch.
|
| I wouldn't be surprised if there is at least one study out
| there (or maybe even a wikipedia page) that attests to this
| phenomenon.
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| Same, my hematocrit gets high during seasonal allergies.
| Donating blood clears this up.
| James_Henry wrote:
| The article mentions plasmapheresis, therapeutic plasma
| exchange, so the posted article itself attests to this
| phenomenon.
| scohesc wrote:
| Seems like the conspiracy theories that the rich and global elite
| harvest the blood of the young and innocent to rejuvenate them
| isn't as false as we once thought... /s
|
| Sometimes I wish we had a medical system where whoever wanted to
| be a test patient for whatever reason could sign on the dotted
| line once advised of the potential downsides (up to and including
| death assumedly) so we could advance medical science faster.
| Maybe we'd find out things a lot faster than we currently do.
| sp332 wrote:
| Some conspiracy theory, they have a price list.
| https://www.ambrosiaplasma.com/
| mrfusion wrote:
| The point of this paper is no harvesting needed.
| macrolime wrote:
| From interview with the authors, why you should be a bit
| careful with just going ahead and trying this out
|
| "This is a somewhat invasive procedure where your whole blood
| goes through a machine and the cells are returned to you and
| the plasma is diluted. It is not completely benign, and you
| cannot just keep doing it every day. So, to know how long the
| effects last and to know it for each individual is an
| additional know-how part that we found out from a couple of
| years of research and are studying further. I'm sure there will
| be competition, but I just want to warn everybody, do not go
| somewhere and get your blood replaced with saline. Wait until
| there are reputable clinical trials and people know a little
| bit more."
| shepardrtc wrote:
| > do not go somewhere and get your blood replaced with saline
|
| I just did that this morning when I donated blood. They said
| they needed the plasma badly, so they took the red blood
| cells and the plasma, and returned a saline solution.
|
| So maybe you just need to donate blood/plasma often to stay
| young?
| macrolime wrote:
| study shows that people, who donate a lot of blood, suffer
| no serious ill effects and may even live longer than less
| frequent donors.
|
| https://sciencenordic.com/body-death-denmark/frequent-
| blood-...
| asdfman123 wrote:
| That's a silly conspiracy theory. Why steal it when you can pay
| a poor a pittance?
| DarthGhandi wrote:
| Wouldn't call it a conspiracy, the show Silicon Valley was
| mocking those who do it years ago.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBA0AH-LSbo
| kgin wrote:
| The implication is not that young blood has specific positive
| properties, but that old blood has specific negative properties.
| Simply removing some of the "bad old blood" is already enough to
| measurably improve biomarkers. Identifying the bad stuff may go a
| long way to counteracting it in a more targeted way.
| naasking wrote:
| > Simply removing some of the "bad old blood" is already enough
| to measurably improve biomarkers.
|
| God damn it, those blood letters were onto something!
| Udik wrote:
| There's a Spanish pharma company (Grifols) that has been
| experimenting for years with plasma replacement to slow down or
| stop Alzheimer's disease progression. The first results of the
| therapy called AMBAR (Alzheimer's disease Management by Albumin
| Replacement) seem to be a slow down of the progression of the
| disease by 71% in moderate cases:
|
| "The CDR-Sb scale - which assesses memory, orientation, judgment,
| community affairs, home and hobbies, and personal care - showed a
| 71% reduction in clinical decline with respect to placebo in
| patients treated as a whole and in all three clinical trial
| treatment arms analyzed separately."
|
| https://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=251270
|
| Which is interesting because it seems they might have stumbled on
| a side effect of something bigger... And it could be possible to
| check the participants to the trial for other effects as well.
| el_nahual wrote:
| Reminds me of the joke:
|
| What do you tell a mouse that has cancer or diabetes?
|
| "You need a new agent!"
| exabrial wrote:
| Basically, stay hydrated? :)
| downerending wrote:
| This is getting flagged down as a dumb joke, but for those in
| the cheap seats, it's not entirely clear exactly how this
| differs. Presumably adding "adding albumin and water" is
| different than just "adding water". But why, exactly? And so
| on.
| abakker wrote:
| If you've never encountered someone with low blood albumin,
| it is a very serious problem. You get terrible edema all
| over. Albumin helps you not retain the water in your cells,
| and instead to get the fluid back into your bloodstream for
| excretion.
| M5x7wI3CmbEem10 wrote:
| is there a way to supplement it, such as milk or egg
| whites?
| naasking wrote:
| It differs because everything except saline and albumin is
| filtered out. The point is to show that some markers of aging
| are harmful byproducts in your blood, and filtering them out
| can have positive effects.
| thimkerbell wrote:
| Implications for recruiting plasma donors?
| macrolime wrote:
| Interview with the authors about the results:
|
| https://www.lifespan.io/news/diluting-blood-plasma-rejuvenat...
|
| An interesting blog post about the same paper:
|
| https://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2020/06/08/out-with-t...
| James_Henry wrote:
| Thank you for sharing Josh Mitteldorf's blog on this paper. I
| think that he has some useful ideas on how to interpret this in
| light of Harold Katcher's work.
| mrfusion wrote:
| How is this different than donating plasma?
| James_Henry wrote:
| Usually blood cells are returned to the body with plasma
| donations. Also, they don't take 50% (but they didn't test the
| effects of taking less)
| echelon wrote:
| Maybe "old blood" has a lot of immune signalling volume going on?
| Elevated cytokine/chemokine production, elevated counts of immune
| cells that recognize more of the environment than a naive, under-
| exposed body? Inflammation.
|
| Maybe part of aging is an auto-immune dysfunction?
|
| Granted, this is a very dynamical system. The immune system
| clears cancers that are constantly popping up and prevents
| infections from taking hold.
|
| (This is all unscientific pontificating. I had an undergrad in
| biochem, but I don't follow the relevant research.)
| M5x7wI3CmbEem10 wrote:
| are there any actions we can take to make use of this new
| information?
| wedn3sday wrote:
| This may go part of the way to explaining why women have a longer
| life span then men, they're constantly having to manufacture new
| blood. Men only have to create new blood if they donate or suffer
| some injury, but women's bodies are generating new blood all the
| time.
| naasking wrote:
| Everyone generates new blood all the time. There's nothing
| gender specific about this. Our blood cells are completely
| replaced over a cycle of something like 4 months.
|
| And this study is about plasma and albumin specifically.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| I think popular press of animal studies is mostly clickbait,
| especially aging studies.
|
| The lifetimes of mice are so small compared to humans that you
| have to apply large scaling factors. An old mouse would be a very
| young human. How valid the scaling factors are is a different
| story.
| mcculley wrote:
| I just gave blood today. I have been trying to give blood as
| often as possible (once every eight weeks) to help keep
| cholesterol and iron low. Now, of course, I'm getting a free
| COVID-19 antibody test out of the deal. I'm wondering if this
| frequency of blood donations has a similar effect.
| mrfusion wrote:
| I was wondering that too. But donating only takes about 10% of
| your blood. So maybe not enough for any effect?
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| > "They replace half the blood volume in mice"
|
| I'd speculate the difference in volume is too great, having
| half your blood replaced with saline solution must feel awful.
| aomix wrote:
| Not really the same thing but I'm blood type O- and do the
| "Power Red" donation at Red Cross events. I have two units of
| blood taken out and the red cells and plasma are separated so
| the plasma can be returned along with saline to make up the
| difference in volume. I don't notice much of a difference
| besides feeling a little cold since the saline is at room
| temperature. However in that case I believe I'd only have
| ~10% of my blood volume replaced with saline.
| entangledqubit wrote:
| Aside from the altruistic aspect, I had extra motivation to
| give blood from an unfounded pet theory that the body isn't
| capable of removing all bad products that ends up in the
| bloodstream. Giving blood seemed like a safer way to purge some
| of these products than diy at-home phlebotomy. It's nice to
| finally have some research supporting this guess.
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(page generated 2020-06-17 23:01 UTC)