[HN Gopher] Fujitsu announces permanent work-from-home plan
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Fujitsu announces permanent work-from-home plan
Author : l31g
Score : 426 points
Date : 2020-07-06 10:14 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| onetimemanytime wrote:
| Covid might actually result in permanent changes. Sucks for a lot
| of commercial real estate companies. WeWork is probably 100% done
| CubsFan1060 wrote:
| I also wonder the impact it'll have on retail and lunch places.
| A lot of small restaurants popped up around places with a lot
| of office workers. If those office workers are all WFH now, the
| previously desirable restaurant locations will become semi-
| worthless.
|
| On top of that, my guess is that WFH people will go out for
| lunch less often, so those restaurants won't just relocate to
| more residential areas, they (and their jobs), will just
| disappear.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| OTOH, isn't it pretty customary for any large office (let's
| say 1k+) to have a cafeteria, with presumably most employees
| eating there?
|
| Some of these will not want to cook lunch in the middle of
| work, and at least order takeout instead.
| peruvian wrote:
| It's not as common as you might think nor is it always free
| or affordable.
|
| In NYC, the Sweetgreen/Dig Inn/etc. type places in areas
| with offices are packed from 12pm to 3pm every weekday.
| It's a huge market for them.
| fzzzy wrote:
| Yes, this is quite likely, but this is a titanic shift in
| the real estate market. Previously, you wanted a flashy
| storefront to attract customers so you put your kitchen in
| a fancy area. Now, you just need a kitchen on a back alley
| where delivery drivers can easily pull in to pick up their
| orders.
|
| I actually think it might cause a more efficient use of
| space overall. Lots of strip malls and even regular malls
| around the country are going to be converted into housing.
| If almost everybody does almost everything through
| delivery, there's no need to spend the money on prime real
| estate and extensive signage, which is very expensive.
| ghaff wrote:
| >Lots of strip malls and even regular malls around the
| country are going to be converted into housing
|
| Unlikely. Most "dead malls" are in suburban and rural
| locations, often depressed. Maybe there will be some
| housing development in the acreage but they're mostly in
| areas where land is relatively plentiful and cheap. Dying
| malls aren't going to open up prime real estate because
| retail in prime real estate is mostly still doing pretty
| well.
| bpicolo wrote:
| > with presumably most employees eating there
|
| I think this is a pretty big/new tech specific thing, and
| there are still exemptions. Of the large non-tech companies
| in NYC, I know a few banks have cafeterias, but the food is
| both not free and not good
| claudeganon wrote:
| In Japan, it's far more common, even for much smaller
| companies. There's a great Japanese TV show that does
| mini documentaries on these places (and others where
| workers eat) called, "Sara Meshi" (sarameshi)
|
| https://www.nhk.jp/p/salameshi/ts/PVPP6PZNLG/
| ghaff wrote:
| Making a sandwich or soup for lunch is not a big deal. And
| probably the vast majority of urban offices do not have
| cafeterias and people go out to eat (if they didn't bring
| something from home).
| zrail wrote:
| The restaurant owners who really want to make it work will
| hustle into delivery out of more affordable commercial
| kitchen space. If WFH sticks I won't be surprised to see more
| commercial kitchens opening closer to residential areas.
| __s wrote:
| This could be nice. Often observed restaurants struggling
| around residential areas. WFH could help support more
| heterogeneous zoning, which would also reduce needing to
| own a car or use public transit
| marcosdumay wrote:
| That's a different market.
|
| If 10% of the people keep WFH after the pandemics, that means
| real state prices will plummet. But restaurants will see a
| 10% decrease on revenue.
| jfoster wrote:
| Would it be those ones that suffer? If some existing
| companies depart a central area, isn't it more likely that
| others would replace them in that area, rather than a
| geographically uniform reduction in occupancy?
| vharuck wrote:
| Might be a chance for diners or other restaurants to offer
| meeting rooms. They could charge less than coworking spaces
| and make up the difference in food and drink sales.
| ajross wrote:
| > WeWork is probably 100% done
|
| WeWork specifically was failing anyway, but it strikes me that
| in a world where permanent workplaces are deemphasized and
| workers are inherently more mobile, the market for a broker of
| temporary spaces is probably larger, not smaller.
| ghaff wrote:
| For at least some who want to live in a city and are WFH
| full-time, it will make more sense to rent a co-working space
| than to move to a bigger apartment with a dedicated office.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| And I think there's a currently underserved niche of
| single/DINK people who would enjoy the freedom of remote
| work but don't want to spend the working day socially
| isolated.
| ghaff wrote:
| I'm not sure how underserved it is. I suspect that a lot
| of people just don't want to pay for a co-working space
| out of their own pockets and would normally content
| themselves with going to coffeeshops, etc. to get out of
| their apartments.
|
| Added: And people can make do with situations for a
| limited length of time whether working from their kitchen
| table or suffering through a 90 minute commute that
| aren't necessarily sustainable long-term.
| asdff wrote:
| Maybe there is some in between? Personally, I like the
| idea of the cafe as a local work space I can walk to from
| my apartment, but would love it if there was some
| guarantee of having a desk and niceties like a monitor or
| print/copy/fax/ship. I would pay some membership dues for
| a coop space like this.
| buboard wrote:
| people dont want to pay 2 rents for no reason though, unless
| the rents are very cheap, so they won't be able to price
| these things high anymore. probably
| asdff wrote:
| Rents for this would be work from home space would have to
| be modest. Gym membership rates would probably most fair.
| The equinox priced areas will be painted smoke grey with
| dark wood desks, and be stocked with instacup coffee. The
| snap fitness type place will be like your high school
| library, and will be good enough for me if I have a few
| square feet of desk and a monitor.
| reustle wrote:
| Here in Tokyo, I actually feel the opposite. WeWorks are quite
| busy again, but then again we didn't get hit as hard as the
| west.
|
| If I were a company with 100 employees, I'd get 50~ hotdesk
| spaces at my local coworking space chain and let employees come
| in up to 3 days a week whenever they feel like it.
| sirn wrote:
| And that's quite surprising to hear. I also live in Tokyo,
| but given how packed Chuo line/Shinjuku station in the
| morning for the past few weeks, it feels like everyone has
| already gone back to their regular office hours routine. :(
| Aeolun wrote:
| It certainly feels like that huh? I'm thankfully still
| working from home, but we haven't had a permanent work from
| home announcement yet.
| sirn wrote:
| Many people from our company prefers working from home as
| well, so I'm waiting to see how our HR reacts (we already
| have a 3 days WFH policy in place, but many people now
| kinda wish they could do permanent). However a large
| enterprise I'm working with already asked everyone to go
| back to office, in addition to never issuing WFH for
| their non-Tokyo office in the first place, which is kinda
| shame, because I wish they would be adopting with the
| "new normal", but instead they just go back to normal...
| onetimemanytime wrote:
| In the sense its cheaper to outsource than having your own
| permanent offices? That's possible but major companies would
| probably have them meet/come at existing offices on alternate
| days.
| ghaff wrote:
| Commercial leases also tend to be fairly long-term. So a
| lot of companies are in the situation where they want to
| use their existing space in a way that's appropriate for
| the current situation. Which may be different from what
| they'd do if they were starting from a clean slate.
| C1sc0cat wrote:
| Employees _HATE_ hot desking - you 'd also have to disinfect
| / clean much more rigorously similar to hospital standards.
| asah wrote:
| There are other reasons to dislike hot desking but COVID
| doesn't seem to be one of them: surface transmission is low
| risk, disinfecting a desk is easy and can be done by staff
| overnight, ...
| C1sc0cat wrote:
| OH yes but it would have to be done properly between uses
| and regular office cleaning would now have to be more
| rigours and costly than it is now.
|
| Probably closer to how a low risk hospital ward is
| cleaned than the perfunctory wipe - you might also have
| to use those sealed keyboards designed so they can be
| cleaned.
| asdff wrote:
| Wework was a parasite, it was done whenever landlords figured
| out they can just deal directly with the tenant and both would
| save an expense.
|
| However, there might be promise for a sort of coop remote work
| environment, not necessarily tied to your company, but shared
| by your neighbors. For instance, I would love to have a work
| station in the neighborhood, in walking distance to my
| apartment. I only need a desk, a monitor, decent internet
| connection, but things like having a more secure shipping
| address and print/copy/fax/package dropoff would be great
| perks. I would gladly pay a membership fee for a small,
| hyperlocal, neighborhood-based incarnation of wework, where I
| would be guaranteed to have a desk whenever I choose to walk
| the block or two and get some work done. Basically, the local
| cafe, but I always have a seat, a monitor, and basic fedex
| functions.
| C1sc0cat wrote:
| Sucks for the worker who now has to bear the cost of providing
| office space and internet connections and your local network.
|
| Also longer term a lot of housing stock will become les
| desirable and new residential housing will become bigger and
| more expensive.
|
| Oh and H&S inspections will now have to be included
| noir_lord wrote:
| I would happily provide that cost since I pay for all of that
| anyway to work from home.
|
| Dragging my arse into an open office during a pandemic has
| killed my motivation completely.
|
| I've gone from hard working to doing just enough not to get
| fired while I look for another job.
| ghaff wrote:
| I have never heard of a health and safety inspection for a
| home office. I'm quite sure mine would fail in multiple
| counts.
|
| But, yes, a small urban apartment is not going to be great
| for working from home. Especially without coffeeshops etc.
| open. Longer term, people who WFH indefinitely will either
| need to move to larger places or they'll want a co-working
| space that either they or their company pays for.
| C1sc0cat wrote:
| Its the law in the UK and from what others have said the
| USA as well
| ghaff wrote:
| Pretty much everyone I work with in the US worked from
| home at least some of the time even before this. I'd
| place a sizable bet that not one of them has ever had an
| OSHA inspector come to check out their home workplace.
| C1sc0cat wrote:
| I think if its the odd day you might getaway with it -
| but when your workplace is formally defined as your home
| it might be very different. I suspect it for the USA it
| will be the medical insurers that will insist on it.
| ghaff wrote:
| I was curious if there actually was a technical
| requirement that no one followed in practice. But no.
| Home offices are explicitly out of scope--although there
| may be some reactive oversight for other home-based
| worksite activities.
|
| Policy for Home Offices.
|
| OSHA will not conduct inspections of employees' home
| offices.
|
| OSHA will not hold employers liable for employees' home
| offices, and does not expect employers to inspect the
| home offices of their employees.
|
| If OSHA receives a complaint about a home office, the
| complainant will be advised of OSHA's policy. If an
| employee makes a specific request, OSHA may informally
| let employers know of complaints about home office
| conditions, but will not follow-up with the employer or
| employee.
|
| https://www.osha.gov/enforcement/directives/cpl-02-00-125
| #po...
| adwww wrote:
| On the other hand, it's probably boosted the value of more
| remote homes in otherwise desireable areas that have
| previously suffered for local employment opportunities.
|
| In the UK that might include beautiful countryside in places
| like Wales and Cornwall, or larger houses available in the
| North.
|
| Assuming the internet is fast enough!
| jon-wood wrote:
| For most people I suspect they come out on top even with the
| extra expense of needing a decent internet connection and
| some office space. Commuting (particularly into London, which
| is what I'm most familiar with) is _expensive_ - I 'm a 1.5
| hour train ride out from London, and an annual season ticket
| costs PS6,000-PS7,000 per year, depending on the route and
| whether I want a travelcard for London as well.
| C1sc0cat wrote:
| Yes but you will get a pay cut its not like they are going
| to pay London /SF wages in the country.
| jon-wood wrote:
| Maybe, although I'm currently being paid top end London
| wages in the country. A lot will depend on supply and
| demand, what salaries people are willing to accept, and
| what more openness to remote employees does to the
| candidate pool.
| ghaff wrote:
| There's a subset of people who can normally walk or bike to
| their office and are now faced with either moving into a
| larger apartment or renting a co-working space--which I
| don't expect to be typically reimbursed. But most people
| commuting in from or around the suburbs can probably make
| the space at home work and are saving double-digit dollars
| per day.
| C1sc0cat wrote:
| Probably make space very unlikely the average person is
| not going to have a spare room to fit a desk with a
| double monitor.
|
| And if its a couple or a shared house even worse -
| probably increase the divorce rate for couples both WFH
| QuesnayJr wrote:
| That's amazing. The annual pass for all of Switzerland is
| only around PS3,500.
| fzzzy wrote:
| For existing companies like Mozilla where we are mostly
| remote anyway, the company already reimburses home internet
| and office equipment like chairs and monitors and desks.
|
| Also, Mozilla will reimburse space in the form of a coworking
| lease in the worker's city. (Edit: Who knows if this will
| continue after Coronavirus) I don't think there's any kind of
| benefit for the costs incurred by the increased use of home
| space, but I do think there should be.
|
| Mozilla did an ergonomic inspection on my workspace at my
| request when I still worked in an office. I haven't had one
| on my home office, but I do agree that companies should pay
| for ergonomic assessments of home offices.
|
| I do agree that as more traditional companies switch over,
| they may not be so generous with their reimbursement since
| one of the biggest benefits for them is cost reduction. They
| can silently move all the costs of working space onto
| employees. And I do think this will result in people seeking
| larger living spaces in general as well, unfortunately for
| energy efficiency.
| C1sc0cat wrote:
| And the increased rent/mortgage/property tax payments for
| the extra rooms/space ?
| fzzzy wrote:
| I agree that it is unfortunate that workers will mostly
| silently have to bear these costs. I am experiencing that
| right now.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Can Japanese residents comment on how this works WRT office space
| in the home? Do people typically have space in their homes to
| have a proper home office setup?
|
| My wife and I are both WFH right now, and we had to buy a second
| desk and chair and repurpose what was previously our 2nd bedroom.
| The 3rd bedroom has always been a home office. If we lived in a
| downtown apartment, I'm not sure what we'd do, as we're both in
| management and spend the majority of the day teleconferencing.
| caymanjim wrote:
| Even in the US with larger houses (outside cities anyway), few
| people have an entire room to dedicate to a home office, much
| less two. We repurpose attics, garages, large closets, guest
| rooms, etc. If a couple wants two dedicated permanent office
| rooms, it doesn't make sense to stay in an urban center. It
| might make sense to rent external office space (perhaps to
| share with others), or stay cramped and consider it part of the
| tradeoff of not having to commute.
| xen2xen1 wrote:
| I'm intensely curious about how this will affect larger cities
| like Tokyo if the trend stays. Isn't / wasn't the real estate
| prices in Tokyo super important for the Japanese economy? If
| workers could suddenly move out to the burbs how would that
| affect places like Tokyo?
| fennecfoxen wrote:
| High real estate prices don't help most economies. Neither do
| high oil prices, high energy prices, high raw-materials
| prices, high food prices, or other high prices.
|
| Exceptions apply if your local economy is in that sector
| specifically, but this prosperity only comes at the expense
| of output everywhere else.
|
| In the ultimate economy, everything is free and you can have
| as much as you want.
| neilparikh wrote:
| Exactly, high real estate costs just mean that the barrier
| to entry for new businesses is higher, and that margins
| (for businesses and individuals) are smaller.
| cactus2093 wrote:
| I mean FWIW I'm American and your explanation sounds very
| foreign to me. I'm a millennial though, so owning a house at
| all is quite obstacle. Scrounging up a down payment when even a
| 2 bedroom apartment is $1-$1.5 million is not the easiest task.
| Renting an extra 2 bedrooms to have lying around in case we
| suddenly need 2 offices would also cost an extra couple
| thousand dollars a month. My wife and I are both working from
| home from a 1 bedroom apartment currently.
| pottertheotter wrote:
| I grew up in Silicon Valley and worked there until a few
| years ago when I moved to the Midwest to do a PhD. My wife
| and I are millenials and she is also from a big city area.
| The plan was to move back to Silicon Valley, where I can
| easily get a lucrative job in my field. But when we did the
| math, it was an easy decision to stay in the Midwest.
|
| I miss the weather, but we're so much better off financially.
| Plus we bought a 2,400 sqft home with 3/4 acre in an amazing
| area for $300k. I have a huge home office, and two extra
| bedrooms. I don't need this much land, but to be anywhere
| near this comfortable in Silicon Valley would be years off
| and would require several things to work out perfectly.
| hibikir wrote:
| The US has very localized housing problems. Many tech giants
| are realizing that they have to either diversify their
| locations or enter into a housing spiral, as there just
| aren't enough houses for how many people they'd like to hire.
|
| Once you step out of a small number of markets, the price
| problem goes away. I live in a well sized metro in the
| midwest, and I've worked, from here, for companies you've
| heard about. 4 bedrooms in my street, sitting on half an acre
| and a decent school district, are $250k. A 1 bedroom
| apartment would be under a thousand a month to rent, and
| that's a modern building with good appliances, a gym, a pool
| and gigabit internet. A single person in tech, right out of
| school, can easily save enough to get a mortgage in their
| first year working.
|
| So yes, your situation is very real, but if there was less
| pressure to be in Seattle, NY or SF, the housing problems
| would melt.
| nostrademons wrote:
| It's more that the price problem follows the workers.
|
| A decade ago, Seattle was cheap. You could get 4/5 BR homes
| in Kirkland for $400K. I just checked, and those homes are
| going for $1.2M now. Similarly, one of my former Google
| coworkers moved out to the Boulder office. When I'd checked
| on Boulder in the late 00s, you could get nice homes for
| $250-300K. He paid about $850K.
|
| Wherever you have highly paid tech workers, you will have
| highly paid tech workers bidding up houses. You just have
| to get ahead of them, and buy where the FAANG offices are
| just being constructed rather than wait until you work
| there. True remote work (where you could dial in from
| anywhere, not just a city near an office) would fix this,
| but that's not really what's being offered these days, and
| when it is the salaries are more inline with what people
| make in the Midwest than what they make in Silicon Valley.
| matchbok wrote:
| In the same spot. Home ownership is so out of reach for the
| vast majority of the people my age. Even with good salaries
| and savings!
|
| Most people my age who have purchased a home got significant
| help from their parents.
| kevinherron wrote:
| Or we just don't live in the Bay Area...
| caymanjim wrote:
| It's really not out of reach unless you insist on living in
| a major metropolis. A young couple earning under $100k
| combined can afford a comfortable 3-bedroom home in all 50
| states, just not in a large city. Mortgage rates are near
| all-time lows and the 20% "required downpayment" has been a
| myth since before you were born. You don't even need great
| credit to buy a home with a mortgage under $1500/mo all-in
| with taxes and insurance. Now that remote work is
| increasingly accepted there's never been a better time to
| buy in the suburbs.
| ghaff wrote:
| After all this, for many people I suspect that living in
| the core area of an "elite" city is going to become a
| luxury lifestyle decision rather than at least a
| perceived cost that is part and parcel of desirable jobs.
| Some will still choose to do so, but it will be the same
| sort of expensive optional choice that living in a trendy
| beach or mountain town will be.
| kyllo wrote:
| People go where the jobs are. They are going to live
| wherever employers "insist on" locating their offices.
|
| 20% down payment isn't a myth; if you don't put 20% down
| (and don't have some special situation like a VA loan)
| you have to pay for private mortgage insurance which can
| be hundreds per month, as you're buying the lender
| insurance against the possibility of you defaulting on
| your loan.
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| Depending on your situation, PMI may be worth it. For
| example I was paying 1200 a month for a 1 br apartment.
| They wanted to up it to 1500 a month. Instead I bought a
| house with 5% down. The total monthly payment for a 200k
| house, including PMI, is 1,100 a month.
|
| Even with PMI I am still paying less than living in the
| same apartment year over year.
| nicoburns wrote:
| $100k? A quick google shows me that median household
| income in the US is closer to $60k. And that's the
| median, so half of households will be lower than that.
| caymanjim wrote:
| It was a somewhat-arbitrary line. $60k/yr is about $3k/mo
| takehome. While that's not a lot of money, it's enough to
| live a modest lifestyle including a mortgage and raising
| children with only a single parent working. I'm not
| saying it won't be a struggle, but it's doable. It's how
| I was raised and it's how most of my family lives, and
| I'm in NJ, which is in the top 10 most expensive states.
| My niece and nephew-in-law live comfortably on $70k with
| two kids, two cars, one earner, and just bought a house.
| Life is hard and that's ok.
| zubiaur wrote:
| That is true; however, only 29% of the households are
| dual income.
| bzbarsky wrote:
| While true, ~30 percent of households in the US are
| single-person (see
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/242189/disitribution-
| of-...). And a number of others are single-parent. The
| parent specifically talked about a couple's combined
| incomes.
|
| Looking at https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-
| series/demo/income-p... (the "Married-Couple Families"
| section), the first data set ("All Races"), the numbers I
| see for median household income, by age, are:
|
| 25-29: $76.5k 30-34: $92k
|
| 30-34 is stretching the definitions of a "young couple",
| of course. I'd love numbers for 20-25, but this data set
| lumps in 15-24 all together, though the set of married
| couples under 20 is presumably pretty small.
|
| $76k is still not $100k, of course.
| GordonS wrote:
| I presume the OP's comment was in the context of the
| typical HN crowd, which I would imagine has a higher than
| average income.
| jbay808 wrote:
| I would guess the ones earning that much are probably in
| metro areas like the bay area and Seattle.
| GordonS wrote:
| I imagine those in the Bay area are making a lot more
| than 50k/year, or at least there are always SV devs
| chiming in saying they are making 300-600k/year (the OP
| said 100k for a couple).
|
| I make the equivalent of 100k USD in a tier 2 city in
| Scotland (a single income that is, not a couple
| combined). It's not outlandish for senior roles across
| much of the UK (with "normal" companies, not FAANG).
| VRay wrote:
| Yeah, dude, there's a site "Levels FYI" that gives real
| data. If anyone's having trouble wrapping their brains
| around it, just keep in mind that every business needs to
| send a sizable chunk of its revenue through Silicon
| Valley to stay competitive (via advertising, office
| equipment/software, apps, etc)
|
| 100k is attainable even in the middle of nowhere in the
| USA, but you'd probably be better off working remotely
| for someone for 120k+
| jmchuster wrote:
| New CS grads start off at like 120k. New boot camp grads
| start off at like 100k. If you're experienced, you might
| get up to 200k. If you're experienced and good, you can
| hit 300k and beyond. Once FAANG sets the standard like
| this, then basically everyone else needs to offer similar
| salaries if they want to compete for that same quality of
| engineer.
| taken_username wrote:
| Assumptions, not data. Even if you assume the reader of
| HN is in tech firm, you can assume the "household" income
| average
| GordonS wrote:
| It seems a reasonable enough assumption to me, that tech
| workers make more than average - so much so that I didn't
| feel the need to trawl for a peer reviewed data source.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| _Scrounging up a down payment when even a 2 bedroom apartment
| is $1-$1.5 million is not the easiest task_
|
| America is a big country and is not specific enough when
| describing these prices.
| jdhn wrote:
| >Scrounging up a down payment when even a 2 bedroom apartment
| is $1-$1.5 million is not the easiest task.
|
| This is why I don't live in the Bay Area, and have no plans
| to. I was casually surfing Trulia, and found new construction
| in my area starting at $170k for a 3 bed/2 bathroom. The idea
| of paying that much for an apartment(!) is simply foreign to
| me.
| ed25519FUUU wrote:
| My generation (millennials) really do think life only
| exists on a handful of very expensive urban centers.
|
| Most of the country is very affordable, but I guess they
| don't have advertising tech companies saving the world so
| it's not as desirable.
| mrep wrote:
| That's not the case at all for me and my millennial
| friends who have spread out to over a dozen different
| cities. Even my CS friends didn't move out of the midwest
| and are still in Chicago, Fort Wayne, and Indianapolis.
| flattone wrote:
| You can take 600k 30 minutes out of seattle and love your
| 2800sqft modern home (approx/just now starting to look for
| myself)
|
| Update: (Not modern but im a fan anyway.
| https://www.redfin.com/WA/Bothell/15601-Cascadian-
| Way-98012/...
| jupiter90000 wrote:
| I used to live in that area and it would regularly take 45+
| minutes to get to/from Bellevue and could take over an hour
| to Seattle.
|
| Edit: also a home like that would probably have been like
| 450k just 4yrs ago. Prices have skyrocketed around here
| ejvincent wrote:
| 600k is too low for any home in the area that isn't in bad
| shape at that size (and your example shows this). Also,
| that 30min can become 1h+ with traffic, with almost no
| public transit alternatives.
| flattone wrote:
| Everett is a solid 600k contender if closer to 2000sqft
| alistairSH wrote:
| I get it. That's part of the reason we live AND work in the
| 'burbs (out near IAD, instead of inside 495). We were very
| purposeful about where we bought - balance of cost, location,
| etc. It's doable in most regions (SF/SV and NYC being notable
| exceptions).
|
| And it's why I asked. At least my mental picture of Japan has
| most people living in very small (by American standards)
| apartments. That might not be accurate, based on other
| comments - with many people commuting 2+ hours each direction
| (which seems completely bonkers to me). Either way, the
| average size of a home in Japan is smaller than the US
| (though I have no idea how it compares to Europe).
| cthalupa wrote:
| 2+ hours sounds like they want to live pretty far outside
| of the city. You can get a reasonably priced and sized
| place in Chiba and be in the heart of Tokyo in an hourish.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Yeah, it does. I got that from kubatyszko's response to
| my OP.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| In their case they can live further out of the city to save
| cost and have a bigger space
| ekianjo wrote:
| In Japan you can end up with more office space at home if you
| can spare space for a decent desk than at work, where desks are
| small and crammed next to each other's, at least until COVID19.
| Yellow_Boat wrote:
| You think this will change now? (the crowded office spaces)
| ekianjo wrote:
| Not sure. Even politicians still hold up meetings way too
| close to each other to avoid COVID19 contamination so I
| doubt there's a realization that proximity needs to change.
| Private companies have limited floor space and management
| style is not well suited to having everyone work from home,
| so it's going to be back in the office with masks, rather
| than redesigning the work space.
| reustle wrote:
| Very unlikely that people have enough space. I'm here in Tokyo
| and video chatting with many clients' staff members. Most seem
| to work at their dinner table (for those that have one) and
| also often from their bed.
| tkgally wrote:
| Japan resident here. Home floor areas tend to be smaller than
| in North America, at least, but discussions I've seen in the
| Japanese press about WFH issues since corona have not
| emphasized that point as much as they have childcare, work-life
| balance, exercise, etc. People I know personally who are
| working from home haven't been complaining about space, though
| I'm sure it's a problem for some people.
| kubatyszko wrote:
| Very ironic fact from the past (and an interesting explanation
| WHY kitchen areas are REALLY well lit in many (older) Japanese
| homes.
|
| After the war, Japanese USED TO work from home, since there was
| no other way, and that common area was usually the only one
| away from bedrooms etc. Then, after the infrastructure starting
| to recover, buildings coming up, offices etc. Culturally, ALL
| employees were required to return to their offices. This
| development also had side effects in making "focused
| communities" (business of certain kind concentrated around
| certain area), which made housing expensive and many employees
| having to live far away - 2hour commute in packed train is
| nothing unusual, and I've met people who actually don't mind
| since this is their time between home and work when they can
| kick back, read a book and "relax".
| jmchuster wrote:
| It's also very interesting that this is where the whole
| mobile gaming gatcha market comes from. Your user base has no
| free time and tons of expendable income, so they'll gladly
| spend thousands of dollars a month on the games they play on
| their daily 2 hour commute.
| saos wrote:
| Thats really good. I wonder how UK companies will respond.
| simonswords82 wrote:
| UK companies will broadly respond the same way.
|
| WFH is now more normalised and sensible companies will adopt it
| ASAP as the standard. Laggards will begrudgingly have to adopt
| it as otherwise they will lose talent and restrict their access
| to new talent.
| noir_lord wrote:
| They largely won't unless forced to.
|
| Management in the UK by and large sucks.
| Accacin wrote:
| I always wonder how people come up with these statements, is
| it just anecdotal?
|
| To add my own, my company was shifting to working remotely
| for the development team gradually, but now our CEO has been
| impressed with how well we adapted to working from home and
| has told us that our office will not be open until September
| at the earliest.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| From CEO perspective they shift all accommodation
| [overhead] costs to employees with no increase in wages.
| Even with slightly lower productivity then financially
| surely wfh for dev roles and the like is going to get them
| a bigger bonus and/or more profit.
|
| Sure it might just be cleaning/utility costs/stationary for
| now, but longer term expansion won't have stepped
| accommodation costs. And if locations can be done away with
| ...
|
| I can't see why workers would be happy without higher
| wages? I want at least to afford a house big enough to have
| an office space (I'm working out of my bedroom, my line-
| manager is in their kids bedroom, their line-manager is in
| a utility room (storage and laundry room)). 5-10% increase
| in wages should do it.
| reallydontask wrote:
| > Management in the UK by and large sucks.
|
| I don't necessarily disagree but I have to say that it's
| miles worse in Spain.
|
| I might've been lucky but I've only had a bad boss and even
| he treated me far better than the best bosses some of my
| friends in Spain had treated them, so clearly YMMV.
| (obviously anecdotal evidence)
| dyadic wrote:
| I wouldn't count on it. The aversion to WFH always seemed to
| be the risk, but now they've already been forced into it and
| mostly handled it quite well, the unknown isn't unknown any
| more.
| reallydontask wrote:
| > The aversion to WFH always seemed to be the risk
|
| I always thought it was the loss of perceived control
|
| A little bit idiotic, if you ask me, as people can and do
| little in the office too if they are so inclined but there
| you go
| jon-wood wrote:
| Sample size of one, but my employer have significantly shifted
| their view of remote work from being something that's only
| really accepted in extreme circumstances (or in some cases such
| as my own, grandfathered in from the early days). All our
| offices are currently closed with everyone working remotely,
| and have been since late February, but even once they reopen
| its already been stated that they expect the new normality to
| be most people working remotely 2-3 days a week.
|
| I suspect that shift has mostly come out of the fact they
| couldn't really play the usual management cards of
| "collaboration will suffer", or "its harder to manage people
| remotely" after multiple months of nobody at all being in the
| office and work continuing more or less as normal. My fear
| going into this is that it would be the nail in the coffin of
| remote work, with companies going into it unprepared and
| everything falling apart for an extended period - at least in
| our case the transition took all of a week or so before
| everyone got used to it, and if anything productivity is higher
| than it was with everyone working out of the office.
| erfgh wrote:
| You said it, "more or less".
| martiuk wrote:
| Unless it's full of younger management, it'll be bums on seats
| forever.
| SenHeng wrote:
| Another side often missing in these dicussions is that Japan's
| tax laws are relatively sane and are the same through all states.
| You will not be taxed differently just because you're living in a
| different state or are living between states.
|
| There are some issues regarding where your residence tax should
| be paid to but those are minor compared to what I've read on here
| about crossing state lines in the US.
| njerschow wrote:
| Hey, you should add your company here: remote.lifeshack.io !
| snarfy wrote:
| Any Japanese care to chime in on how WFH is accepted culturally?
| When I worked for a Japanese tech company I was surprised by how
| old school they were. Landlines, business cards, reams of paper,
| week long meetings about policies, and this was a software
| company. WFH was forbidden unless it was an emergency.
| lnsru wrote:
| Add fax machines and it will be perfect picture of current
| situation in Germany.
| typon wrote:
| How are two of the most advanced manufacturing countries so
| backwards?
| AdrianB1 wrote:
| It is a pendulum swing: these countries advanced a lot
| after WW2, then they believed they found the ideal way and
| got stuck there. In the meanwhile time flows linear, other
| countries were left behind but caught up and moved on. This
| way Japan and Germany still work well due to their
| excellent history, not recent trends.
| daemin wrote:
| I would say more like they found a local maxima and
| stayed there, never going even slightly less efficient in
| order to find a higher maxima than the one they had.
|
| Kind of reminds me of which countries have the
| fastest/cheapest Internet access now. The countries that
| had Internet first tend to have shitty copper
| infrastructure and expensive plans, while the newer
| countries are all up with the latest fibre infrastructure
| and fast/cheap plans.
| AdrianB1 wrote:
| I don't think there is a need to go slightly less
| efficient in order to improve the current processes; they
| just got frozen in time and there are many such examples
| with companies and countries. Remember Japan is not the
| first time doing it, at the end of the shoguns era they
| were behind the rest of the world they were more advanced
| than.
| chaostheory wrote:
| This might be an over generalization, but the answer is in
| your question. Culturally, both places just don't respect
| digital as much as they love anything physical.
| zeeZ wrote:
| Naturally. You can't do business in Japan without a fax
| machine.
| lnsru wrote:
| Seriously!? I thought, Germany was unique with this fax
| machine thing.
| asdff wrote:
| A surprising amount of American personal business is
| still dependent on a fax machine. Especially in dealings
| with government, if you can't physically hand it in, it
| may need to be faxed. Always a terrifying feeling when
| you send a document containing all your personal
| identifying information to the fax nether, hopefully you
| dialed correctly.
| amyjess wrote:
| When I legally changed my name in 2014, I had to fax my
| name change paperwork to a _ton_ of different
| institutions. Fax or snail mail were the only methods
| they would accept.
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| Yep... dealing with a large US bank right now and fax is
| the only way to do what I need to do. I made an inquiry
| at the IRS last year, fax was my only option for
| submitting some info they needed to fulfill my request.
| Fax is not dead in the US yet.
| snappieT wrote:
| At a large Seattle-based _technology_ company ~10 years
| ago, the only way to submit an expense report was via fax
| "for security", but there were no fax machines in the
| office, only multifunction printers that could send
| virtual faxes (not via a phone line)
| Izkata wrote:
| One example from the US: Back in March, I was reading
| about people having trouble filing for unemployment
| because somehow faxes were deemed a secure communication
| method and they couldn't find a place to send a fax.
| mrep wrote:
| I recently had to get a copy of my car loan from chase in
| order to get new state license plates after moving. The 2
| options for delivery were by mail or fax...
| artsyca wrote:
| I live in Japan and at first everyone was against it, now
| everyone is for it and a whole new industry is cropping up. HP
| is early to the market with their solutions and Fujitsu must
| also be sensing the opportunity.
|
| The reason the tides are changing is that there is a social
| consciousness aspect to it now whereas before it would've been
| viewed differently.
| SenHeng wrote:
| I'm wrapped in the software dev industry bubble and WFH is
| mostly doing well here. Some of my friends' workplaces are
| trying to do a half remote, half office situation where you
| come in to the office 2-3 days a week. Usually it's because
| they haven't got their communication flow done well and need to
| use those in-face times to do proper coordination.
|
| I've been reading some Japanese discussions boards about remote
| and it's a mixed big. A lot of people enjoy remote and say it's
| their first time not having to do OT anymore because of the
| lack of (assumed) peer pressure. Some new managers are now
| discovering that they can contact their employees at any time
| of day now due to services like Slack. Not that they couldn't
| before, it's just more efficient now.
|
| Either the general feeling is 'I've seen things now that I
| cannot unsee' and the expectation is things will change but no
| one is sure in which direction.
| cdavid wrote:
| It traditionally isn't. Japanese middle management practices
| would often make office space look good. Especially in
| software, the culture is quite antiquated, because software is
| traditionally seen as a cost center, and most companies
| externalize all their IT. If I had to describe most offices in
| Japan, it would be an unglamorous version of Mad Men.
|
| The culture of the customer is always right also implies making
| contortions to please them, including many on site meetings
| where you have to be there just as a sign of respect. It is
| interesting the first time you do it, but gets boring fast.
|
| I believe Japan has so much untapped potential, the
| generalization of WFH may be the catalyst for Japanese
| management practices to catch up the last 60 years.
| derefr wrote:
| > The culture of the customer is always right also implies
| making contortions to please them, including many on site
| meetings where you have to be there just as a sign of
| respect.
|
| I've always wondered if there could be something like a badge
| you could put on your business, to signal that you're
| participating in a separate sub-economy where the customer
| _isn 't_ always right. There must be modern companies where
| _both_ sides of the giving-face transaction are just going
| through the motions with neither side actually thinking that
| that 's the way things _should_ be. Can 't both sides in a
| long-standing relationship just get together to agree to
| change the deal? Or, if they can't do it on their own, can't
| a third party help them?
|
| Maybe there could be a Japanese charter-city with the goal of
| being a "mock Silicon Valley", i.e. where every business
| there knows that every _other_ business else there is going
| to present itself with the attitude of a real SV startup
| where you "fire your bad customers" and so forth. So, when
| dealing with a company from there, everyone else would know
| that you don't have to give them any face, just like you
| don't need to give real Americans any face.
| laurieg wrote:
| Perhaps one of the biggest barriers to fast moving SV style
| startups would be how difficult firing is in Japan. You
| need around 18 months to fire an ineffective employee. (And
| in contested cases I've heard of an employee who stayed on
| payroll for 4 years while the firing was finalised). It's
| one reason why people often face being harassed to the
| point of resignation rather than formally fired.
| cdavid wrote:
| Indeed. It is particularly depressing to handle as a
| manager, because unless you have top notch HR, your only
| recourse to deal with somebody who does not perform is
| passive agressiveness, or at best plain ignorance.
| Imagine the effect on the morale for other people.
| derefr wrote:
| IIRC a few of the Japanese megacorps are known to just
| move underperformers to a do-nothing role where they at
| least can't cause harm. They _hope_ they 'll get tired of
| doing nothing and quit; but even if they don't, the
| company just moves on--treating their future salary as a
| write-off expense, and hiring someone else to fulfill
| their original role as if they had already left.
| xwdv wrote:
| Ah, office theatre.
| AlexTWithBeard wrote:
| But if software engineers can work from home, they surely can
| work from Mumbai?
| alkonaut wrote:
| If they speak japanese and are happy to adjust their working
| day to the japanese timezone I can't see why not.
| dcow wrote:
| Is productivity going up, or are workers more happy, or both?
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Costs, which can very easily be measured, probably went down.
|
| A company like Fujitsu already has offices in nearly every time
| zone. The average meeting there already has people who are
| joining remotely. Teams already have to coordinate and managers
| already have to manage on the other side of the world. Letting
| people join their daily standup WebEx from home instead of
| whatever office they usually go to doesn't really have much
| impact on that workflow (especially since ~20% of the company
| already does that on any given Friday).
|
| What WFH it does have is an immediate and direct impact on is
| cost.
|
| If you're in management and you see that cost reduction in the
| numbers, productivity appears unaffected, morale appears
| unaffected (and some people even say it's improved) can you
| justify to your superiors not continuing to give people the
| option to WFH where possible?
| murgindrag wrote:
| I think it depends on the company and on the team.
|
| In my company, my productivity skyrocketed, while that of my
| work colleagues crashed. It largely correlated with things like
| tech literacy and being open to change. Where I work, there are
| a few people with who invested in nice WFH setups, work-life
| integration, and all the things needed to make this work, who
| found productivity going up. And then there is the majority of
| people who stubbornly still refuse to even use a headset or
| learn to use tech, and are just waiting for the office to
| reopen.
|
| Outside my company, it's not quite the same split, but most
| people are dipping their toes in rather than diving headfirst.
| CubsFan1060 wrote:
| I'm curious, what all do you include when you think about a
| "nice WFH setup"? For me it's largely a defined space, a nice
| desk, a nice chair, and a nice monitor. Anything else on your
| list?
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| High quality microphone and headphones so you dont echo. I
| already bought a Blue Yeti microphone ages ago but it works
| wonders when I have to hop on a call.
|
| As for nice chair depending on your employer I would ask
| for the one from your job if its sufficient. I was able to
| take mine home. Its just gonna collect dust otherwise.
| adwww wrote:
| My UK employer has closed the office and tried to sell us
| our own redundant desk chairs...
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| That is awful, my employer actually gave out some of our
| "old" desk chairs, so I took one with an arm missing, I
| don't use the arm rest, so I took out the spare arm,
| otherwise if I had asked for my actual desk chair I'm
| sure they would of given it to me to use. We're
| technically allowed in the office due to the type of work
| we do (defense contracts) but mostly work remote, I have
| only heard of a few people going to the office for
| anything they need. It's sad when companies don't treat
| you like adults.
| adwww wrote:
| Childcare arrangements.
| ghaff wrote:
| A defined ergonomically equipped workspace that isn't in
| the way of other day-to-day living (with or without a door
| depending upon who else is regularly in the space day-to-
| day) and a good audio-video setup for video calls and other
| video recording. Even though in practice I often work
| elsewhere in my house on a laptop for various reasons, it's
| important to me to have an office.
|
| And, as others have said, childcare and other arrangements
| to allow you to work without distraction.
| hef19898 wrote:
| My wife's company is kind of curious, and also typical, I
| think. She works in production planning and SCM, so obviously
| the early phase of the Covid-19 crisis was the one with the
| highest workload. It was also the first time they were
| allowed to WFH. One would have expected that it would be very
| difficult. It was, for a week or so until people got to
| understand Teams.
|
| Now, that things calmed down and they started "Kurzarbeit",
| basically reducing working hours where the state offsets
| salaries, the company insists that everyone returns to the
| office. Old ways die hard it seems.
| paulcole wrote:
| > It largely correlated with things like tech literacy and
| being open to change
|
| Don't overlook the stress of living during a pandemic. Has
| absolutely ruined my productivity during WFH.
| tazjin wrote:
| > It largely correlated with things like tech literacy and
| being open to change
|
| Honestly, this is a very patronising view. I understand that
| a lot of people here are strong permanent WFH advocates, but
| it doesn't fit everyone.
|
| My home setup is pretty good and I'll still be first in line
| for getting back to the office for a variety of reasons - and
| there's many others like me.
|
| If you think that means I'm less "tech literate" and not as
| "open to change" then that's your perogative.
| JohnClark1337 wrote:
| I would have thought a big part would be people like me who
| like a good separation between work and home life. When I'm
| at work I work, when I'm home I don't want to think about
| work.
| bpicolo wrote:
| I agree. I fundamentally don't enjoy working in my home.
| Making the best of it while I can, and my productivity is
| fine, but it's taxing. I worked for a year and a half
| remotely a few years prior to the pandemic, and decided I
| did not enjoy it.
|
| I don't think that makes me resistant to change - I just
| consider it a change for the worse.
| ghaff wrote:
| It's totally reasonable that some people prefer a hard
| separation between home and work, as well as the social
| aspect of an office. Although, at many work places, I
| expect the latter is going to be much diminished for a
| very long time if not forever at many company offices as
| many employees shift to remote either entirely or for a
| significant portion of the time.
| ericmcer wrote:
| The one big downside I have noticed from WFH is that any
| efficiency I introduce in my own work becomes reclaimed time. If
| I can crank through a days work in 4 hours in the morning I can
| reasonably take it easy in the afternoon. This is great but it
| has created some stress around things like code reviews and
| impromptu mentoring etc.
|
| If I am sitting in the office I may as well spend 20 minutes on a
| code review trying to figure out a cleaner solution, but at home
| its harder to do it. There is just a general feeling of racing
| towards that 'done' status which represents a good amount of
| completed work for the day. Before it was just 9-5 and a thorough
| code review was a welcome use of that time.
| freehunter wrote:
| I've been working from home for six years and I consider that
| the biggest _upside_ actually. I don't have to waste time
| pretending to work just because it's "work hours". A lot of
| times good enough really is good enough and my reward for
| getting my work done early is I get to reclaim my time. It
| typically balances out with the times I'm still working past 5
| or 6pm for things that really do matter.
|
| The most common complaint about WFH is actually the opposite,
| that the work day is never really done because you don't have
| to shut down your computer and drive home like you would in an
| office. WFH has allowed me to reclaim hours that would have
| been spent poorly (just doing work for the sake of filling
| time) and lets me choose how that time should be used.
|
| If I got my work done and everyone agrees the work is done,
| there is no reason to keep working. We only do it in the office
| because our manager and coworkers are watching us.
| josh_carterPDX wrote:
| I think it's even more difficult when you factor in kids at
| home. We've had to deal with that at our home which means our
| ability to get work done has been cut in half. It also puts a
| lot of burden on co-workers. The biggest issue with this has
| been people without kids wondering why coworkers WITH kids
| aren't getting as much done.
| bbojan wrote:
| But once the situation with the coronavirus is over, the kids
| will be in school/daycare, so this won't be an issue.
| helen___keller wrote:
| Considering how Japanese companies are famously conservative, I
| can't help but wonder if Fujitsu executives were faced with
| undeniable evidence that productivity increased during the
| pandemic WFH
| cdavid wrote:
| I am quite bearish about the impact of WFH, especially for
| software engineers, but if there is one country where I think the
| coronavirus can have a huge positive effect for the economy, it
| is Japan.
|
| Japanese companies are generally extremely inefficient. Outside
| of a few powerhouses, partially thanks to a protected and large
| domestic market, Japanese labor practices are antiquated. There
| is a culture of overwork that begets a culture of inefficiency
| that boggles the mind. Few people know that Japan has a labor
| productivity lower than Italy, for example.
|
| To give a concrete example, you will have companies where people
| will make sure to start meetings at 7 pm to make sure they can
| maximize "Can Ye " (overtime). The labor ministry is trying to
| curb on companies that expect more than 80 hours of overtime _per
| month_. On top of it, if you live in one of the big city (Tokyo,
| Nagoya, Osaka), 3 hours of commute per day is not atypical. And
| then you have the practice of Yin miHui ( "business dinners"
| where people drink, abuse toward women common, etc.), which also
| takes time.
|
| Finally, Japanese companies rely a lot on paper and Pan Zi
| (hanko) and other seals systems. My wife sometimes has to go the
| desk of a colleague dozens of times a day to get some paperwork.
| IT systems are antiquated. And yet, Japan has one of the most
| educated workforce in the world. Especially women are often
| relegated to menial work. Internet is fast everywhere. It is the
| true steam punk country !
|
| Coronavirus and WFH change this. Seeing large companies like
| fujitsu publicly taking a stance is highly significant in a
| country like Japan where executives are often extremely risk
| adverse.
| baron816 wrote:
| There was an Economist article on this exactly:
| https://www.economist.com/business/2020/05/09/japanese-offic...
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| They also care very much about their job title, and the job
| titles of the people they are dealing with. A few years ago my
| company (American) worked with a Japanese company and before we
| went into the meetings we had to establish new job titles for
| the people on our team that would be representing our company
| in the meeting. We couldn't go in there with just a bunch of
| senior engineers when they were sending their VP of
| Engineering. It wouldn't have gone over well.. We had to have a
| Director of Engineering, Senior Director of Mobile, VP of North
| American Engineering. Etc.
|
| These were all just regular very good senior engineers. But it
| would have been insulting to go to the meeting without the
| inflated titles.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| > Especially women are often relegated to menial work
|
| I think this is the phenomenon you describe (Office ladies):
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_lady
|
| But not all women are like this. There are career oriented
| women that are not interested in menial work or becoming
| housewives.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyaria%C5%ABman
| stu2b50 wrote:
| There's a difference between being relegated and being
| interested. He's saying that current business culture causes
| many women to work menial office jobs, not that the women
| themselves are not ambitious.
| subsubzero wrote:
| Really interesting comment, I know a bit about the salary-man
| culture with business men asleep in subways/alleys as they had
| dinner drinking sessions that extended past the last subway
| ride back to their home stations. I wonder how this practice
| came to be culturally? Was it something that manifested after
| WWII where the country felt like it needed to 'catch up' to the
| US and other allied countries? Or was this always a thing
| there? As for paper, calligraphy is a revered art form there,
| as well as stationary and writing letters. So being really into
| paper and forms does not surprise me.
| danonino wrote:
| So you watched some hentai and now you're a Japan expert? Give
| me a break.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| >There is a culture of overwork that begets a culture of
| inefficiency that boggles the mind. Few people know that Japan
| has a labor productivity lower than Italy, for example.
|
| If you spent so much time at the workplace like the Japanese
| you end up with a low producivity on paper pretty much by
| definition, because it's simply output divided by amount of
| time worked.
|
| But I wouldn't overestimate the importance of computerization
| on productivity which is actually extremely low. Here in
| Germany we have a similar paper culture (although not quite as
| extreme) but very high labour productivity. The Japanese could
| simply go home or work a day less and their productivity would
| go up, it's not really comparable to much of Italy. (except the
| north of italy which is actually also extremely productive).
|
| In fact Microsoft in Japan actually did just that and
| introduced a 4 day week a while ago, and productivity went up
| 40% (https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-
| say...)
| cdavid wrote:
| >If you spent so much time at the workplace like the Japanese
| you end up with a low producivity on paper pretty much by
| definition, because it's simply output divided by amount of
| time worked.
|
| It is not as simple as that: in general, more developed
| countries tend to have higher labor productivity. Japan has
| been historically low for several decades.
|
| I'm no specialist of labor statistics, but note that Japan
| actaually worked _fewers_ hours than Italy , accoding to OECD
| anyaway: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS.
| I am pretty sure that most people unfamiliar w/ Japan would
| not place its productivity as low as it is, close to
| countries like Turkey or Slovakia.
|
| >Here in Germany we have a similar paper culture (although
| not quite as extreme) but very high labour productivity
|
| I am familiar with both countries, worked in both, and it is
| nowhere near comparable. But paper is only part of it. The
| overtime culture is quite intense. I still vividly remember
| my first work experience in Japan > 15 years ago, with 3-4
| hours-long meetings where half the members, including the
| lab's head, were _sleeping_.
| SenHeng wrote:
| The BBC also has an article on this topic of sleeping in
| the office.
|
| https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190809-why-
| overtired-...
| bobthepanda wrote:
| One major issue with paper vs digital is that paper scales
| really, really badly. IIRC (I can't find the article) there
| was a marked difference between how easy it was to access
| COVID benefits in Korea (where the process was entirely
| digital) vs Japan (where you had to show up to an office and
| fill out paperwork)
| chrisseaton wrote:
| How does this square with for example the Japanese car market,
| which I thought led the world in labour practices and
| efficiency? They've invented many labour practices that are
| considered the best we have today. And their cars are so cheap
| - how are they doing this if they aren't being efficient?
|
| For example are Toyota's engineering and factories running on
| wasted meeting time, fax machines, and hand-written letters?
| Doesn't seem likely. If they are it seems to produce great
| results!
| Tade0 wrote:
| _how are they doing this if they aren 't being efficient?_
|
| As somebody driving a Toyota they simply don't add too many
| gimmicks and options are usually limited to just trim levels
| and maybe a few bundles you can buy separately. Overall it's
| a far cry from e.g. German manufacturers where the
| configuration form can have tens of items from which you can
| pick and choose.
|
| Also apparently creative work such as software engineering
| lends itself to inefficiencies, because the outcome isn't
| easily measurable. You have to have a culture that accepts
| irreducible uncertainty to navigate in such an environment.
| pault wrote:
| I believe that's an issue of manufacturing efficiency vs.
| corporate efficiency. Toyota invented "lean manufacturing",
| but that doesn't mean that their biz dev, marketing
| department, etc isn't massively inefficient. I'm not saying
| they are, just that the two are orthogonal.
| derefr wrote:
| An assembly-line is a machine designed to avoid the need for
| synchronous human decision-making. Instead, there are only
| _synchronous_ machine decisions, and _asynchronous_ human
| decisions based on e.g. sampling, or spotting.
|
| There are synchronous human _tasks_ in some assembly-lines,
| but as long as they 're _rote_ tasks, inefficiency usually
| isn 't introduced. Humans working _as if they were_ machines,
| are rarely inefficient; and if they are, this inefficiency is
| "legible" for blue-collar work in a way that it isn't for
| white-collar work, so an inefficient human "part" can be, er,
| swapped out.
|
| The whole "thing" that Toyota did to revolutionize car
| manufacturing, was essentially to make quality-assurance part
| of the same ground-level machine (i.e. make it a computed
| outcome of a series of "dumb" machine and worker steps),
| rather than making it a separate auditing process. As such,
| they essentially squeezed the _ability_ to be inefficiency
| /incompetent out of the QA process.
| krick wrote:
| > The whole "thing" that Toyota did to revolutionize car
| manufacturing, was essentially to make quality-assurance
| part of the same ground-level machine
|
| Where can I read more about it? I find it hard to imagine,
| how QA could possibly be a function of manufacturing
| process, since pretty much the sole purpose of it is to
| spot when "dumb" manufacturing process failed you a couple
| of steps ago. I mean, a lot of QA is pretty dumb too (like
| testing a party of 1000 details by breaking 10 of them),
| but there is nothing new about that specifically.
| sethhochberg wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System
|
| This is a good jumping off point
| ska wrote:
| > since pretty much the sole purpose of it is to spot
| when "dumb" manufacturing process failed you a couple of
| steps ago
|
| This is really not correct, a quality based approach to
| design and engineering will likely change your entire
| process (for good or for ill ... probably both).
| cdavid wrote:
| So manufacturing is generally quite efficient. Toyota would
| be one of the powerhouse I had in mind, as would be most car
| companies. Note that Toyota is very much a global company and
| under the pressure of competition worldwide. But many large
| Japanese companies aren't.
|
| >For example is Toyota also thriving on wasted meeting time,
| fax machines, and hand-written letters? Doesn't seem likely.
|
| I don't want to go too much in specifics, but the examples I
| gave are actually coming from a company whose sole client is
| a large car company.
| jbay808 wrote:
| The inefficiency is generally limited to white collar
| workers. Japanese blue collar workers are very efficient.
| Also, internationally competitive companies like Toyota often
| (but not always) have better business practices.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| smallnamespace wrote:
| Successful Japanese exporters are world-class, almost
| tautologically.
|
| They're also the exception. The domestic economy is generally
| heavily protected, regulated, and inefficient.
|
| One view of the situation is that the exporters prop up the
| rest of the economy with their foreign revenues.
| kirykl wrote:
| Toyota tends to subordinate technology to process
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >And their cars are so cheap
|
| Have you cross shopped vehicles lately? Your statement is
| arguably true about Nissan and Nissan only.
|
| Japanese light vehicles typically carry an initial price
| premium that self perpetuates for a whole host of reasons
| beyond the scope of this discussion.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Many products in the Japanese market are well designed,
| durable, functional and cost-efficient, this is not something
| specific to cars.
|
| When it comes to computer products, I am a fan of REALFORCE
| keyboards, which are manufactured in Japan. They have really
| made a difference in my day to day work.
| quicklime wrote:
| > For example are Toyota's engineering and factories running
| on wasted meeting time, fax machines, and hand-written
| letters? Doesn't seem likely. If they are it seems to produce
| great results!
|
| I used to work at Toyota, although it might have changed
| since I was there (I doubt it changed significantly, though).
|
| The factories and supply chain seemed well optimized. This is
| a huge cost in producing cars, so it makes sense to focus on
| this even over engineering productivity, to some extent.
|
| But engineering certainly did involve lots of meetings, paper
| documents with hanko seals, and antiquated IT systems.
| 0xCMP wrote:
| When I visited Japan I couldn't help repeating over and over to
| myself that it's a country with one foot firmly in the future
| and another foot stuck firmly in the past.
|
| It's one of the most fascinating things I love about Japan.
|
| [edit: typo]
| benmw333 wrote:
| What struck me was the seemingly 1995 era laptops people were
| working on in the trains.
| yaktubi wrote:
| I like 1995 era laptops more than modern ones. I also like
| the the plastic casings of desktops back then--they feel
| solid, same with the mechanical keyboards!
|
| Today companies so busy trying to "slim things down."
|
| P.S. why doesn't apple release a matte display laptop? I
| would buy it.
| stx wrote:
| I had one of the last models of matte display apple
| released. I eventually gave it up for the retina
| resolution.
| asdff wrote:
| Apple used to release matte display laptops. You used to
| be able to get a hulking 17 inch macbook pro with an
| optional matte display. Today, you can buy a $15 matte
| film.
| SenHeng wrote:
| This is what benmw333 is referring to. The Panasonic Let's.
| Despite how bulky it looks, it weighs about the same as the
| macbook air. It's basically used by anyone who isn't a
| manager, designer or software developer. You see them
| _everywhere_.
|
| https://biz.panasonic.com/jp-ja/products-
| services/letsnote/l...
| wikibob wrote:
| Is that.... No it can't be... Is that a CD ROM Tray? On a
| new production 2020 laptop?
| patwolf wrote:
| I used to work on software with a lot of international
| customers. On every release we had to go through rigorous
| testing to ensure our product could be installed off of
| CD-ROMs solely for use by the Japanese market.
|
| This was 10 years ago, but even then CD-ROMs seemed
| antiquated. It doesn't surprise me that Japan would be
| one place they're still common.
| krick wrote:
| Well, Japanese love CDs. If I'm not mistaken, Japan is
| the place where collecting music CDs and such still is
| very much a thing. I think it's pretty nice, really.
| rsync wrote:
| Wow - look at this picture:
|
| https://content.biz.panasonic.com/jp-ja/fai/15800/raw
|
| This is not from a wayback machine copy of dynamism.com -
| this is a new, Windows 10 laptop in 2020 (!)
| FrojoS wrote:
| Wow. 19.5h of battery life!
| iso1631 wrote:
| HDMI, VGA, 3 USBs, ethernet, and apparently 20 hours
| battery life! What's not to like?
| crooked-v wrote:
| Well, the best it gets is an i7 (and most of the models
| are i5, or even i3), so that could be a real pain if the
| procuring manager is a cheapskate.
|
| Also, the screens are 1920x1200 across the board for the
| Let's, which is the same pixel density as a 1080p 16:9
| monitor.
| bserge wrote:
| Those things have looked the same for at least 15 years.
|
| I remember checking out new laptops from Japan and being
| amazed at how _small_ they are... With zero change, they
| now look antiquated :D
| matkoniecz wrote:
| What is wrong/weird with it?
| flak48 wrote:
| It's twice as thick compared to even a mid range Lenovo
| or Dell laptop, to start with?
|
| Optical drivers still seem to be a thing...
|
| And I don't think I've ever seen a circular touchpad
| before!
| missedthecue wrote:
| It looks like it would've entered the market in 2006?
| metaphor wrote:
| Panasonic tends to refresh internals while keeping
| externals the same, although performance still sucks.
|
| This variant was once offered in the US market something
| like a decade ago for "business-rugged" use under the
| Toughbook brand, but that magnesium exterior shell
| commanded a high price point; I suspect the ThinkPad T
| series would have been a direct competitor at the time
| with better performance options and being much cheaper.
| silon42 wrote:
| Thicker than VGA and Ethernet jack... without oversized
| touchpad... if it has upgradable RAM, disks and
| battery... where is the Amazon link?
| kozak wrote:
| Why are they emphasizing the optical disc drive so much?
| claudeganon wrote:
| People in Japan still buy and use a lot of physical
| media. Piracy of every kind is more harshly punished and
| strangely, compared to the US, people feel that they
| should buy the work of artists they enjoy to support
| them. There's also thriving secondary markets for
| everything from CDs to movies to games if you can't
| afford to purchase new.
| awiesenhofer wrote:
| Wow! 12", 19.5h battery, under 1kg _and_ still got VGA
| and an optical drive? Were can i buy one??
| claudeganon wrote:
| I think this design is actually pretty cool. Wonder if it
| has Linux support.
| ethanwillis wrote:
| Apparently it does.
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Panasonic_CF-SV9
| [deleted]
| celim307 wrote:
| This bleeds into their North American operations too. Nowhere
| else in my career have I seen a more wretched hive of incestual
| politicking, inefficiency, lack of respect for lower workers,
| and obsession with beaucracy at Panasonic's American operations
| pkaye wrote:
| Reminds me of when my past employer sent me to Japan to debug
| a firmware issue for a potential customer. Every day for a
| week I had to spend two hours talking to their engineers
| talking about my debug decision tree for debug work for the
| rest of the day. And that was with an English/Japanese
| translator to help communicate. Most people adapt their debug
| strategy as they collect more data but they wanted it all
| planned out ahead. A very different way of doing it.
|
| The bug was very specific to their use case and they wouldn't
| help us replicate it in our labs so I never figured it out
| until a year later helping another customer. It was a bug in
| counter wraparound handling.
| SillaDeRuedas wrote:
| So you watched some hentai and now you're a Japan expert? Give
| me a break.
| poma88 wrote:
| Finally someone had the brains to do it! Beautiful.. if they pay
| for the use of space and resources at home
| georgex7 wrote:
| All companies remote work policies: remote.lifeshack.io
| thesumofall wrote:
| Not commenting on this specific case here, but I believe we
| currently see the pendulum swinging from one extreme (WFH only at
| a very exclusive subset of companies) to the other extreme ("WFH
| first" policies)
|
| I'm convinced the true winners will be those companies that find
| a smart mix of both worlds. This includes recognizing that both
| concepts have their strengths (e.g., people are a lot more
| disciplined about meetings in a remote context) and weaknesses
| (e.g., a further breakdown of the separation between work and
| live). WFH needs more than just giving people the green light to
| work from home on selected days. It also, for example, needs a
| radical rethink of office infrastructure (most offices are not
| designed for 10 people sitting side-by-side and being on the
| phone most of the day), management culture, and shared best
| practices how to approach non-transactional work (e.g., how to
| tackle complex topics with people who do not know each other
| remotely?)
| buboard wrote:
| There is no middle ground -- WFH is self-reinforcing trend,
| because offices are much less useful when they are half-empty
| and all processes have go online. As soon as some coworkers
| move, others follow. If people start working 2-3 days at home
| ... they start to think about moving somewhere better. I wonder
| what is the endgame of this rearrangement? Perhaps nomadism
| will become common? But in that case, cities will lose even
| more cohesion than they ve lost so far. If we take away the
| work factor, the question "where do i/my family live" becomes
| much more open-ended. Obvious choice #1 is near extended
| family. What else motivates people to move?
| munificent wrote:
| I don't think it's anywhere near as bimodal as you say.
|
| As far as human pyschology goes, I think it's hard to be
| productive over the very long term with almost no real in-
| person time to connect with your team. We're social animals
| and we bond best when together. And we are more productive
| and efficient when we have bonded in that way.
|
| Even famously all-remote companies shell out cash to fly
| everyone together at least a few times a year because of
| this. At some point, though, there are diminishing returns to
| getting everyone in the same room. The optimum point surely
| varies from person to person and depends on the nature of
| their work, but I don't think the peak is "every day" or
| "never".
|
| Yes, offices are less useful when they're empty half the
| time. But homes are too! Most American homes sit empty from
| 8am-6pm every single day. Miles and miles of dead suburban
| streets, empty driveways, houses silent except for the
| ticking of thermostats.
|
| I'm interested to see a company try a middle ground like
| this: Everyone works from home most days. At some periodic
| interval, maybe once a week, everyone comes to some shared
| space for meeting and coordination work.
|
| This sounds like the worst of both worlds because you need
| both home office space and office space. But the office space
| can likely be shared with several teams. An office big enough
| for 100 people could service a 1,000 if teams only came in
| once every two weeks. If in-person days are mostly around
| meetings and communication, you don't need a lot of dedicated
| desk space. It doesn't need to feel like a permanent
| "territory" for each worker. Instead, just a pile of shared
| meeting rooms and open spaces.
|
| If you still have to come in a few times, then it sounds like
| you're still stuck living close to an urban center. But,
| actually, the livable radius increases dramatically. A one-
| hour each way commute is a nightmare if you do it every day.
| That's ten hours a week stuck in a car. But if you only come
| in once every two weeks, then you could cut your total
| commute time in half while living five _times_ as far away.
| And, since in-person days are mostly for meeting anyway, it
| 's viable to have an understanding that commuting is part of
| your "work day" and have a shorter in-person work day.
|
| In return, you get to spend less time commuting and more time
| in your own community, with your pets, with your loved ones,
| and in your own home.
| ghaff wrote:
| >almost no real in-person time to connect with your team
|
| I work on a very distributed team and, in normal times, we
| just physically get together in one of our offices or in
| conjunction with some event a lot of people are attending
| anyway a few times a year. Most of us (normally) travel a
| good part of the time anyway so it's really not especially
| disruptive.
|
| I actually agree that remote teams should have some real
| F2F time but that needn't mean living within commuting
| distance of a common office.
| ghaff wrote:
| I tend to agree in that coming in only one or two days a week
| gives you some greater flexibility in where you live, but
| only some. For a lot of people whose companies are in
| expensive urban areas, WFH a few days per week means they
| need more housing than they might otherwise need but they
| can't move somewhere that's cheaper/preferable.
|
| And while teams can coordinate time in the office, the more
| people are mostly remote the less value there is in others
| coming in.
|
| >Obvious choice #1 is near extended family. What else
| motivates people to move?
|
| They like the environment more? I work with someone who just
| ditched their downtown city apartment and bought a place on
| the coast of Maine.
| thesumofall wrote:
| I'm not sure I agree here. I struggle with the assumption
| that all processes can go online without any loss of value.
| For some jobs this might be possible, but the more a job is
| not just about realizing clearly articulated requirements,
| the more this will be difficult. Hence, companies will expect
| a pay cut for the loss in productivity. Again, I believe
| there is a great middle ground to be found that leverages the
| strengths of both worlds
| runawaybottle wrote:
| I'd love to see companies convert 'Unlimited vacation time at
| your discretion' over to 'Unlimited remote at your discretion'.
| xtracto wrote:
| "Unlimited vacation" is a deception. Real perks are to have 15
| or 20 days of vacations, increasing with seniority at the
| company, and _forced_ vacations (i.e., the company forces you
| to take the vacations every year). It is also good for the
| company health (ensure that no 1 person missing has a large
| impact).
| [deleted]
| Ductapemaster wrote:
| I'm a cynic about unlimited vacation policies for a few
| reasons:
|
| 1. At its core, I believe it's a clever bit of financial
| engineering disguised as a worker-first policy. All of a
| sudden your startup doesn't have any accrued PTO to keep on
| the books, and doesn't have to pay out anything to people who
| leave (I know this varies state-by-state but at least in CA I
| got paid out at previous jobs).
|
| 2. There's no tangibility to your vacation. You're just given
| access to this nebulous thing and it is up to you and the
| company to define a culture and a policy for it, and most of
| the time they don't do it well. People end up coming up with
| a "virtual bank" in their heads to justify taking time off
| and keeping track of things. This leads to totally different
| value systems between individuals, teams, managers, etc. All
| of a sudden a number I could look at in my payroll software
| and was inarguably whatever integer it was to anyone who
| looked at it is now some weird "idea" that my boss and I have
| to agree upon, potentially every time I go and take time off.
| This leads to unfair application of policies across a
| business, because every employee and manager is different.
|
| 3. In an unlimited system, the value of 1 day and 1 week has
| to be self-assigned by me or my manager, since with
| "unlimited" the value of any individual day is by definition
| basically zero. I think this leads people to see their time
| off as less valuable and are more likely to come online to
| check an email or respond to a slack. At my current company
| we have an unlimited PTO policy, but they found people
| weren't actually "off" when they said they were, so we now
| have one day a month that is dedicated as a company holiday
| so that everyone is off at the same time. It's usually used
| for creating a 3 day weekend, or extending a federal holiday.
|
| Overall, I hope the policies continue despite my cynicism,
| but only with more guardrails. I hope that companies have
| better policies in the future _encouraging_ employees to take
| time off. I would like to see companies do more "full
| shutdown" days like mine currently does. It's a forcing
| function that benefits everyone.
| runawaybottle wrote:
| Sure, I've heard that and can believe it. I think one of the
| side effects of the term is that it kind of gets rid of the
| shame and social gymnastics around taking time off.
|
| Believe it or not, many people for many years had to come up
| with some sort of excuse to work remote (have to pick up the
| kids, waiting for plumber/delivery, etc), so normalizing
| remote, even nominally, would be a good step forward.
|
| Of course a global pandemic helps move the agenda too.
| wontonzealot wrote:
| _" Unlimited vacation" is a deception._
|
| I see this being repeated over and over but I can't help but
| think that it's become a way to discourage giving employees
| time off from a company's perspective. I've successfully
| taken 30+ days off in an unlimited vacation environment (not
| consecutively) and not been reprimanded in any way because I
| was able to operate responsibly. Before I left for any length
| of vacation, I made sure that projects were delivered and
| successfully launched weeks before hand and I created
| documentation and trained others on continuing work processes
| (the lack of my presences should not have ANY impact).
|
| "Unlimited vacation" should be a work perk that is
| attractive. Often times I find that it's the managers who
| don't believe employees should be given time off or the
| company decides to just implement unlimited vacation without
| any process in place to revoke the privilege or guidelines as
| to what a responsible policy looks like. It's easy to say
| something doesn't work when there was never any intention or
| effort to make it work.
|
| Just my 2 cents.
| ghaff wrote:
| I had a fairly long conversation last year with someone who
| is a manager at a well-known "unlimited vacation" company.
| His take was that it works well but that's because there's
| clear leading by example from the top.
|
| (It's also not necessarily a great system in general if
| you're someone who moves between jobs a lot as there's no
| unused vacation payout under such a system.)
| skizm wrote:
| There are a bunch of companies that technically have that, but
| you are pressured to work in the office and working from home
| more than once a month is looked down upon. I have noticed
| though that if you use kids as an excuse (valid or not) you're
| given much more leeway, and can get away with maybe 2-3 times
| per month without an negative social stigma.
|
| I think it needs to be a culture change.
| [deleted]
| williesleg wrote:
| Yeah, I was one of the first abandoning the cesspool of san
| francisco and their mad shitters. Been telecommuting from
| Colorado for a while, it's great!
| zkid18 wrote:
| Wow, that huge for Japan I believe. I live at Kichijoji and it
| takes me 1 hour to get to work in Akasaka. I love my place and
| somehow get used to this routine, but honestly I wish I could
| rent a place in Japanese countryside.
| azuriten wrote:
| If I could somehow guarantee a remote-work job for the
| foreesable future I'd love to move back and live somewhere more
| countryside but still with decent links to Tokyo such as the
| Shonan area or even somewhere a bit more east of Kichijoji like
| Hachioji or Ome.
| TuringNYC wrote:
| I think this is the key thing. 75% of our family's problems
| would be solved if we could untangle ourselves from the
| burden of having to live in job-driven-metro areas close to
| the office. Mortgages would no longer be a problem, neither
| would school districts, neither would crushing commutes.
| Neither would childcare, since we'd have enough room in the
| house for help.
| gmantg wrote:
| Good for you, not so good for your employer. Expensive
| mortgages is a big stick that motivates people to work.
| kubatyszko wrote:
| You can actually get a house for free in some areas, mostly
| central Japan. Many cities are becoming deserted and houses are
| left alone, governments offer incentives to take them over.
| Might come with a catch such as committing to maintenance of
| farming.
| 9nGQluzmnq3M wrote:
| The main catch is that the "free" houses are usually in
| complete disrepair and require a lot of non-free work to make
| them livable.
|
| Building a new house in Japan is surprisingly affordable, but
| getting one built to Western standards (say, effective
| insulation and an expected lifespan of more than 20 years) is
| not. And I'm not even being facetious here: Japanese building
| codes assume that wooden houses last for 20 and concrete ones
| for thirty, then they get torn down and rebuilt by the next
| land owner.
| [deleted]
| y-c-o-m-b wrote:
| My wife did a little light reading on this subject and found
| it's more complicated than that. It turns out that finding
| the owner of these properties is an enormous challenge
| because due to the high level of taxes and fees associated
| with these buildings, the owners are reluctant to claim them
| (to avoid paying the taxes/fees). I would like to see someone
| living in Japan confirm this, though.
| john4534243 wrote:
| Even software service companies have started to go full remote.
| WFH is the future.
| dtech wrote:
| "Even"? softare dev is one of the easiests things to do
| remotely
| achow wrote:
| "Even" because the comment is about software service
| companies (as opposed to software product ones).
|
| In service companies keeping or accounting time (so that
| clients can be billed) is a thing.
|
| When working from home, keeping account of time spent may be
| a challenge. As long as one is in office, even though they
| may not be clacking away on a keyboard (but goofing away)
| they can be billed without any guilt and if the service
| company is really questioned or audited, they can show
| employee swipe in and out time.
|
| For WFH employees one cannot, also just tracking login maynot
| cover full story (Ex. tele calls would not be accounted for).
| [deleted]
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