[HN Gopher] Who is the greatest knife steel metallurgist of all ...
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Who is the greatest knife steel metallurgist of all time?
Author : severine
Score : 75 points
Date : 2020-07-16 16:05 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (knifesteelnerds.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (knifesteelnerds.com)
| bullen wrote:
| Japanese carbon-steel (should be called carbon-iron really
| because they rust) knives are way superior to anything these
| clowns made!
| jimnotgym wrote:
| Superior in what way? I can imagine there are environments
| where the stainless properties of some of the steels in the
| article offset the properties of any mega sharp rusty iron
| knife.
|
| Japanese swords are amazing objects, but can chip when hit by
| another sword and are effectively ruined. European swords were
| renowned for their comparative toughness, however.
| dmoy wrote:
| Corollary: there's a lot higher parrying frequency in modern
| FIE-style fencing compared to modern kendo, which partially
| carries over because of the historically more brittle steel
| used in Japan.
| dang wrote:
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| mcguire wrote:
| The unknown dude sometime around 2000-1500 BCE who discovered you
| could get iron from ore?
| stx wrote:
| This guy made it economical.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Gilchrist
| jjoonathan wrote:
| I'd call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer_process the
| major advance and Gilchrest-Thomas a refinement. Shrug.
| app4soft wrote:
| > _The unknown dude sometime around 2000-1500 BCE_
|
| No, this unknown dude was far later somewhere in Japan.[0]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing
| dragontamer wrote:
| It should be noted that iron was still around before iron-ore
| mining. But metallurgists back then had to wait for meteorites
| to fall from the sky and craft those (King Tut's meteorite-iron
| sword).
|
| But yes, the leap from copper/bronze (which could be discovered
| by simply dropping rocks into a fire, since copper melts at low
| enough temperatures) vs iron, which is a process that requires
| much hotter temperatures + forging techniques, is huge.
|
| Learning to mix metals into alloys would eventually lead to the
| discovery of steel (mix iron + wood). Not as good as modern
| steel, but trial-and-error would get a process down over the
| centuries for sure.
|
| The "Iron Forge" seems to be the hardest step in the whole tech
| tree. Its a huge leap, no matter how I think about it. Maybe
| some old pre-history metallurgist was lucky enough to play with
| meteorite-iron and noticed similarities to ore somewhere else.
| Sharlin wrote:
| Bronze was revolutionary in other ways. Sure, copper occurs
| in native metallic form, but even once you find out that
| mixing it with certain minerals yields a much better metal,
| you have other problems Namely that the mineral that gives
| the best alloy, cassiterite, or SiO2, only occurs in large
| quantities thousands of kilometers away from your copper
| deposits. Trade between regions that hitherto had had little
| contact became a thing.
|
| Iron, as known to the ancients, was in many ways inferior to
| bronze. Iron with low carbon content is malleable but soft,
| whereas iron with too much carbon is hard but brittle. It
| took a long time for people to painstakingly learn to make
| iron that was _consistently_ as good as bronze, and even
| longer to further refine iron into consistent-quality steel,
| a process that also required huge amounts of energy compared
| to bronzemaking.
| [deleted]
| Havoc wrote:
| I was expecting more exotic names frankly. That's my ignorance
| speaking perhaps, but to me top metallurgist would be Damascus
| steel and maybe Japanese swords?
| tudorw wrote:
| https://blog.knife-depot.com/link-between-samurai-swords-and...
| nickbauman wrote:
| What about the unsung blacksmith of Japan who basically created a
| variant of Damascus Steel to make the swords for Samurai starting
| around 1100 AD?
| hinkley wrote:
| The _lost_ art of sword forging.
|
| I still find it hilarious that 'Damascus steel' was a snow-job
| by the merchants to keep people from cutting out the middle
| man, by naming it after a place half a continent away from
| where it was being sourced.
|
| You may be buying it from Damascus but that crucible steel was
| coming from Hyderabad.
| thdrdt wrote:
| What a lot of people also don't know is that forging doesn't
| give the steel it's strength. Forging is done because it is
| way easier/cheaper than melting and casting it.
|
| Quenching and tempering gives it it's desired strength.
| hinkley wrote:
| My understanding was that forging is work hardening (but
| hard and strong are not the same thing), annealing cancels
| it out, which is why quenching and tempering are important.
|
| Also the story of the structure of the metal is a bit
| different when you've folded it 100's of times. No
| blacksmith or foundry is getting that sort of fine work in
| their material.
| catalogia wrote:
| Forging squeezes the slag out, thereby purifying the
| steel. As far as I am aware this was the primary
| mechanism by which folding steel (which was done about a
| dozen times, not hundreds; those larger numbers come from
| 2^[n folds]) strengthened Japanese blades.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Forged, cast and machined parts of equal dimensions have
| entirely different grain structures.
| newacct583 wrote:
| Was. These days the labor involved in hand-forging a part
| dominates and cast alloys are everything anyone uses for
| anything, outside of oddball boutique communities like
| fancy knife aficionados.
| catalogia wrote:
| They did great work with the materials they had available, but
| the materials they had were quite poor. Tamahagane is a very
| poor steel which requires a great deal of forging to work the
| slag inclusions out. The extensive folding was done to purify
| the steel; with a higher quality steel doing that isn't
| necessary. Contemporary Middle East and European metallurgists
| had better material to work with and their best steel, crucible
| spring steel, was better than the best Japanese steel.
| henrikschroder wrote:
| I think it's sort of funny that people are idolizing medieval
| Japanese swordsmiths.
|
| "They folded their blades 200 times!!!"
|
| Yes, because they had to, because the source material was
| pretty crap comparatively. Not because they were some kind of
| magical elven runesmiths making densetsu katanas.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Great article.
|
| A long time ago I started collecting exemplars of edged weapons
| (swords, knives, axes) for no reason other than I found the
| aesthetic interesting. But in collecting these things you may
| find, as I did, that just looking at them gets to be boring so
| you start reading about them. When was this kind of sword
| invented? Who used it? For what? What replaced it? What came
| before it? Etc.
|
| Before too long you may find that you are looking at two parallel
| universes that are interlocked by expressions of intent. In one
| universe are people figuring out what makes metal have the
| properties it does and how can I change them? And the other
| universe is people looking at what metal can do "now" and
| applying it to their creative process in weaponry.
|
| It is an amazing tapestry of complexity behind the simple
| appreciation of "that's a cool sword/knife"
| morelisp wrote:
| The greatest knife steel metallurgist of all time would surely be
| the one that doesn't even bother with steel or metallurgy
| anymore.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg3qsVzHeUt5_cPpcRtoaJQ
| JohnL4 wrote:
| Why is this even a topic on HN, with 77 (+ mine) comments?
| adictator wrote:
| If one is talking about steel/iron metallurgists of all time, you
| cannot ignore Indian metallurgists. Some iron implements built in
| ancient India match or even surpass the quality of similar
| implementations of current time.
| cycrutchfield wrote:
| I'm not an EDC knife kind of guy, but I have spent a lot of time
| and money on kitchen knives. SG-2 (aka R2) is pretty much the
| best that I have tried in terms of edge retention, ease of
| sharpening, and convenience (i.e. rust-resistant).
| gautamcgoel wrote:
| I'm a huge knife steel nerd, so it's cool to see this article get
| some love on HN. Currently, I own knives in S35VN, M390, Cruwear,
| and 52100, all Spyderco. If you've never carried an EDC knife
| before I suggest you pick up a Spyderco Manix or PM2/PM3 and try
| it out. There's a lot of engineering and craftsmanship that goes
| into making a quality knife which I think HN readers could
| appreciate. Also, they're just handy to have around.
| balls187 wrote:
| Benchmade fanboy here.
|
| I went down a rabbit hole about EDC in WA state. There is a
| grey area that carrying a pocket knife requires a concealed
| weapons permit.
|
| Most folding knives have a pocket clip, but as far as I have
| found, it's unclear if that in an of itself would qualify as
| not concealing the weapon.
|
| https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/washington/
| leeoniya wrote:
| my current EDC is a Benchmade 940-1 (S90V) - love it. used to
| EDC a Spyderco Centofante 4 (VG-10), but the flat blade
| profile is not a great all-arounder.
| balls187 wrote:
| Great knife, I actually have the Goldclass Damascas 940.
|
| Obviously not as an EDC.
| nordsieck wrote:
| > I went down a rabbit hole about EDC in WA state. There is a
| grey area that carrying a pocket knife requires a concealed
| weapons permit.
|
| From what I can tell, the article you linked talked mostly
| about the illegality of concealed carrying a fixed blade
| knife. From what I can tell, it's perfectly legal to carry a
| folder as long as it doesn't possess any "bad" features[2]
| and is within the length restriction.
|
| The law in Seattle is pretty clear.
|
| > "Dangerous knife" means any fixed-blade knife and any other
| knife having a blade more than 3 1/2 inches in length[1].
|
| ___
|
| 1. https://library.municode.com/wa/seattle/codes/municipal_co
| de...
|
| 2. My understanding is that a lot of otherwise normal
| "folding knives" fall under the "gravity knife" definition
| because the detent that holds the blade closes is often
| pretty weak (on purpose - it makes opening the knives one
| handed easier).
| khm wrote:
| There is no 'concealed weapons permit' in Washington state.
| The only available permit is pistol-specific.
| stx wrote:
| Knife laws vary allot by city and state.
|
| In Colorado I believe the maximum length allowed is 3.5
| inches in blade length. This sounds simple but can even be a
| grey area because some knives like Spyderco have a part of
| the blade thats not sharpened and technically part of the
| handle.
|
| NYC used to be very knife unfriendly and you could get
| charged with carrying a gravity knife if the knife could be
| flicked open in any way. Good news though as it sounds like
| that changed https://reason.com/2019/03/28/federal-judge-
| rules-new-yorks-... There was still a case in NYC of a chef
| who was charged with something for carrying a very small
| pocket knife on his way home from work. He was charged with
| something for the pocket knife but from what I remember it
| was totally okay that he was carrying a bunch of large chefs
| knives in his backpack.
|
| Its important to read and understand the law as well as how
| its actually enforced.
| ftio wrote:
| Genuine question, coming from the perspective of a city-
| dwelling office worker.
|
| I get the value of having a knife like this in the house (to
| open and break down cardboard boxes, etc). Why do you need to
| carry one around? Can you tell me about the last time you used
| it outside the house?
|
| I'm _definitely_ over-indexing on my own experience here. Would
| love to have my mind opened to how carrying a knife regularly
| might improve my day. :)
| jeffbee wrote:
| I carry a benchmade knife everywhere. Why? Because all hell
| breaks loose if you have three kids and only one nectarine.
| Not that you need a fancy-ass knife for such work.
|
| Other field-knife activities include "what does the inside of
| this seed look like?" and "I got a splinter!"
|
| The only issue is even though the state of California permits
| them, the university of California forbids carrying knives,
| and there is one of those right in the middle of my city.
| stx wrote:
| I live in the city and carry a knife where allowed. I use it
| to open boxes and packaging, cut food, turn screws (sometimes
| when they fit), pry things open, pick out splinters, strip
| wires... Its the most basic tool.
|
| The other day I was replacing my windshield wiper blades and
| needed to pry out a small adapter that they came with and
| used an old knife I keep in my car. I was doing this in the
| parking lot of the auto parts store because the first set I
| took home did not fit correctly even though the computer said
| they did.
| robgibbons wrote:
| A small pocket knife is a handy tool to have, whether you
| think you need it everyday or not. The general idea is that
| it's better to have it and not need it, rather than need it
| and not have it.
|
| Beyond self-defense, which is a fairly obvious use case for
| any "weapon," I've used my pocket knife to cut loose threads
| from clothing, open plastic packaging that broke a good pair
| of scissors, removing stickers, splinters, and even as a
| makeshift screwdriver (in a pinch).
|
| You can do almost all of those with scissors, but are you
| going to carry a pair of scissors in your pocket? Probably
| not.
|
| Beyond that, there are emergency scenarios you may never run
| into, such as cutting seatbelts, clothing, or stuck shoelaces
| -- again, better to have it and not need it...
| enchiridion wrote:
| It is a bad idea to rely on it in any sense for protection,
| unless you are mentally and physically prepared to use it.
|
| The best option is always to run if you can. Everyone loses
| in a knife fight.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| I don't understand American knives. Too big, and in my taste
| often very ugly. Something like the a Victorinox Climber fits
| better in the pocket and works better both for city life as
| well as for camping, with essentials as cork screw and pincer
| (works very well for ticks).
| bravoetch wrote:
| Outside the house recent uses:
|
| Cutting some cord while camping. Cutting food while camping.
| Making a slit in a facemask lining to allow insertion of a
| filter. Cutting some card for a bookmark.
|
| If you have a knife on you, it gets used.
|
| Side-note - people tend to assume it's for self defense. I
| doubt that's actually practical, and I'll run away every
| time. Maybe throw the knife into a lake along the way to be
| safe from someone using it against me.
| mr_overalls wrote:
| Alternatively, consider supporting an artisan by buying a
| traditionally-forged blade.
|
| https://www.etsy.com/shop/BrightForestForge
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I dunno, I think I'd rather have the QC of a big player for
| an EDC. Those artisan blades are nice showpieces though.
| jakeogh wrote:
| There's a review in here somewhere...
| https://www.youtube.com/user/mhanlen1
| pjc50 wrote:
| I may regret this, but if I want a zero maintenance kitchen
| knife, what should I get?
|
| (No "EDC" in the UK, of course)
| gjkood wrote:
| Bought one of those Wusthof Classic Block Set with a few
| knives in it more than 20 years ago. The blades still look
| like new, the handles have some scratch marks. Use them every
| week multiple times.
|
| Only care provided was to hand wash them, dry them and put
| them back in the block. Very rarely attempted sharpening but
| frequently honed with a steel whenever I felt any dullness
| while cutting.
|
| Thats about the lowest maintenance I can think of.
|
| Buy decent knives, take care of them and they will last a
| lifetime and maybe multiple generations.
| clairity wrote:
| similarly bought a set of henckels classics and they're
| holding up fine, except for one, where a bit of the plastic
| handle has broken off (apparently i can send it in to get
| it fixed, but haven't done so).
|
| i'm lazy so i have to hone/sharpen the knives more often
| than i like (every few weeks vs. never), but they've
| overall provided great bang-for-buck!
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| I have a set of Shun Classics that I hone maybe once every
| two weeks. They are still incredibly sharp after 8 years of
| daily, extensive use and I've only sharpened them three times
| on my whetstone. I will only break out the stone if I can see
| missing chunks in the blade edge; this is the goal of
| sharpening: to remove the blade material around a divot to
| create a new, continuous blade edge.
|
| Also, make sure to use a honing steel. If you "hone" on one
| of those ceramic sharpening rods, you will reduce the life
| span of your knife. Ceramic removes blade material, steel
| simply realigns it. The edge of the blade will curl over with
| use, honing straightens it back up, no need to remove
| material!
| mod wrote:
| Victorinox chef knife is a good choice, and not expensive.
|
| You'll still have to sharpen it, but not often. It won't rust
| etc.
| henrikschroder wrote:
| +1 for the Victorinox fibrox series. They're not pretty,
| they're not designed, they're not cool, they're not the
| sharpest, and they're not cheap.
|
| But they're certainly not expensive, and they're just 100%
| utilitarian. Ergonomic, sharp, easy to sharpen, and you can
| throw them in the dishwasher no problem.
|
| If you want to optimize for value-for-money and ease-of-
| maintenance, these are it.
| abawany wrote:
| I am no knife nerd and it is heresy to bring it up in this
| thread but I am a big believer in ceramic knives. They cut
| clean, maintain an edge with no fuss, and just work. I
| recommend ones from Kyocera (made in Japan) since those have
| worked well for me. Also somewhat related, my peppermill is a
| Kyocera ceramic as well - works awesome compared to some of
| the others I've tried.
| evilduck wrote:
| Ceramics are neat but they chip easily are aren't readily
| sharpened or repaired at home (or even by most professional
| sharpeners).
|
| I think most people would be better off with a $40
| Victorinox Fibrox.
| abawany wrote:
| I will concede that cheaper ceramic knives may chip
| easily but I have been using my set for about 6 years
| without any issues. The very first cheap ceramic knife I
| got chipped because I inadvertently dropped it from
| counter height on a tile floor. My stainless steel knives
| now just sit idle in drawers and I don't miss them one
| bit - haven't used one in years.
| dangerscouse wrote:
| Snap, got 3 Kyocera. Had them for years, never had them
| sharpened (though I'm told I can post them to do this) but
| hands down the best knives I've ever owned.
| balls187 wrote:
| All kitchen knives worth anything require maintenance.
|
| Really good knives (i.e. usually made with good steel) will
| hold an edge, and require less sharpening before each use.
|
| Instead you can just hit them weekly or so with a sharpening
| ceramic.
|
| Cheaper knives need constant sharpening, and or don't hold an
| edge for anything, and require you to do all the work.
|
| Regardless, always wash and dry your knives by hand, and
| always cut on a cutting board.
|
| Me personally, I love Shun knives. Not cheap, but the time
| and effort saved when cooking make it worth the investment.
|
| My first shun is over 10 years old, and I have never
| sharpened it with a stone, just a sharpening ceramic.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| There's no such thing as a zero maintenance knife. Stainless
| steel knifes are lower maintenance than higher carbon steel
| ones. Zwilling, Wustof, Victorinox and Global all make good
| quality "affordable" stainless knifes.
|
| But if you want it to last and keep a sharp edge, the only
| way you can do that is by sharpening them every so often.
| Even once a month on a ~400 grit stone will keep them in
| pretty good condition.
|
| People are suggesting ceramic, but seriously don't bother.
| They dull and chip, and you can NEVER sharpen them. A ceramic
| knife has a short life span, after which there is literally
| nothing you can do to bring back it's cutting edge.
| adrianN wrote:
| A Spyderco Manix seems to cost about twice as much as a ~15
| tool Victorinox. In what way is it better, given that it's just
| a knife?
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| I don't have one, but they are pretty different in terms of
| value proposition, a Victorinox is barely a knife (most are
| non-locking, which makes them only suited for opening
| letters), but has some extra tools tucked in that might come
| in handy, or not. As you pay more for folding knives you get
| better steel (for holding an edge), locking (for not cutting
| your fingers off), ergonomics in the handle. There are
| certainly diminishing returns, and past a point you're mostly
| paying for fancy materials in the scales of the handle, and a
| designer's signature. There are lots of cheap and cheerful
| Chinese-made knives that are still a lot sturdier that a
| Victorinox, though.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| In what kind of normal use of a knife do you risk that the
| blade folds and cuts your finger without a locking
| mechanism? I have some trouble visualise anything except
| possibly stabbing (which I don't consider normal use).
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| Can't say I do a lot of stabbing, other than boxes. But
| any kind of cutting where the material can hold onto the
| blade, like whittling a stick, or cutting a fair-sized
| piece of rope can cause a non-locking blade to fold onto
| your fingers.
| m0llusk wrote:
| They are tools, so let's start with the handles. The Manix
| handle has a shape which is thin enough to easily carry in
| pocket yet which fills the hand to enable not just one but a
| range of different solid grips for maximizing strength or
| control. The handle materials also make the knife extremely
| durable yet light even though it is relatively large.
|
| Deploying a Victorinox usually means using two hands and then
| not having a solid lock on the deployed blade. Putting the
| knife back is also a two handed gesture. While the blade has
| a stop around halfway to retracted there is still some risk
| involved. The Manix uses a Spyderco specific variation of a
| slider lock mechanism which allows the blade to be easily
| deployed using a range of fast flick or slow slide gestures
| that require only one hand. When the Manix blade is deployed
| and the slider lock is not manually held open it
| automatically locks solidly so that the blade does not move
| against the handle and the strength of the lock is such that
| the handle is more likely to fail than the lock itself.
| Retracting the Manix blade is as simple as pulling back on
| the slide and then letting the blade fall or swing back into
| place and while some prefer to use two hands it is easy and
| even fun to deploy and retract the Manix with one hand.
|
| When it comes to cutting there are many variables and the
| most important is the geometry of the blade. The broad flat
| grind of the Manix and the classic shape of the cutting edge
| make it easy to use for piercing and cutting action that
| slices instead of chopping. Superior materials mean that
| under use almost any of the Manix blade variants will hold an
| edge far longer than the Victorinox.
|
| So whether simply carrying the knife around just in case it
| is needed, deploying it for use, or actually cutting things
| the Manix is going to deliver easer and more reliable
| performance. It may be just a knife, but if you often use a
| knife then the convenience can quickly pile up to being less
| than a dollar--even pennies per actual use with each. And
| every time you can have the satisfaction of doing what needs
| to be done with minimal inconvenience. And it is also just
| plain fun: A fidgety machine that looks cool and works well
| can inspire confidence in the modern world the way so many
| other widgets can turn promise into a drag.
| jaclaz wrote:
| If we are talking multitools, a Leatherman would do nicely
| and it has blade lock (beside a S30V blade, possibly
| depending on models).
|
| Depending on the country (and possibly in the US depending
| on states) a folding knife that can be opened with a flick
| of the hand/wrist may be considered illegal (switchblade or
| more accurately "gravity knife").
|
| See:
|
| https://www.akti.org/news/california-appellate-
| upholds-653k/
|
| In some places there are also contrasting theories on the
| legality of the "lock open", i.e. a Victorinox multitool or
| an old Leatherman without lock would "pass" but a (say)
| Leatherman Charge/Wave/Surge would be border line[1] or
| just over the border[2].
|
| [1] if considered "multitool"
|
| [2] if considered "knife"
| d_silin wrote:
| Leatherman cheapened out on steel for their knives. I got
| one in 154CM ten years ago, but now similar models are
| all in 440C.
| gautamcgoel wrote:
| I think you're confusing two Sypderco models. The Manix costs
| about $120-130.
| gknoy wrote:
| After having a pocket knife close on my finger as a kid (when
| I did something stupid;)), I will never again use a
| pocketknife without a locking mechanism.
|
| A knife is a personal tool; Often what you're paying for is
| not just the blade quality, but also the ergonomics. For
| example, my dad has one that he really likes, but I dislike
| the blade shape, and there's another one I have that is just
| horribly shaped and feels terrible in the hand.
| Doxon wrote:
| If you need to cut things even a few times a week, I'd
| recommend trying a knife with a pocket clip and one-handed
| opening. Being able to have the knife ready in 2 seconds
| without having to put down what you're holding is both useful
| and gratifying. Spyderco's thumb-hole system works very well
| for one handed opening and the grip ergonomics on the Manix2
| and Paramilitary2 are great. If those are too large for your
| tastes, the Spyderco Native is a good choice (while being
| harder to close one-handed)
| gautamcgoel wrote:
| I can easily close my PM2 with one hand, but still haven't
| figured out how to close my Manix 2 without using both
| hands. Is there a trick to it?
| Doxon wrote:
| Yeah, closing the Manix2 is harder than the PM2. Grip
| strength and practice are all I can recommend. I grip the
| handle with all my fingers (not covering the slot) with
| the butt/pommel nestled in the the palm. This gives you
| the leverage to reach forward with thumb and index finger
| to pull rearwards on the locking nubs. Then you can whip
| your wrist to get the blade to seat, or just reach
| forward with the thumb to pull it in.
|
| edit: when you've got the nubs pulled back, you have to
| give it a little shake shift the blade a little.
| nordsieck wrote:
| > A Spyderco Manix seems to cost about twice as much as a ~15
| tool Victorinox. In what way is it better, given that it's
| just a knife?
|
| I guess it really depends on what you care about.
|
| If you have the Victorinox mostly for the tools, then it's
| obviously better than the Spyderco. If you have it mostly for
| the blade, then the Spyderco will be better. The edge will be
| sharper and will last longer. Also, the lock is more
| ergonomic and probably stronger.
|
| If you really like the Victorinox and don't care that much
| about the cork screw, a Leatherman wave/charge just has much
| better tools and blade than Victorinox, and you can get the
| blade in s30v for a bit better performance.
| notacoward wrote:
| What kind of steel is in that Victorinox? How well does it
| take an edge (can it even take the same _kind_ of edge), hold
| an edge, resist chipping, corrosion, etc. compared to the
| Spyderco? It might well be a better overall EDC tool, but
| since this is a story specifically about steel I 'd guess
| that the answers to those questions would explain why 2x is
| literally a small price to pay for some people.
| TallGuyShort wrote:
| Victorinox uses a proprietary steel, which I hear good
| things about does seem to me to be a very good steel. That
| said, I'm still not a fan of Victorinox blades for much
| beyond letter opening because of their size & geometry. As
| others have said, if you want a _knife_ , there are WAY
| better knives. If you want a bunch of tools, okay. Still
| partial to Leatherman myself, as much as I like the Swiss
| Army aesthetic.
| leeoniya wrote:
| i carry a knife but also a thin victorinox money clip.
| the scissors in it hold their edge very well and are
| extremely handy. the knife in the clip is also quite
| good, especially in situations where pulling out the more
| serious 3.4" blade is inappropriate.
|
| https://www.gpknives.com/victorinox-money-clip-red.html
|
| i also have a victorinox Fieldmaster multi-tool, but the
| knife in it does not get a lot of use since i cannot EDC
| the thing due to its heft. i've used the saw in it
| multiple times and that thing is fantastic.
| TallGuyShort wrote:
| Oh that money clip is pretty cool. I would probably go
| for that if I carried cash much - but I pretty much just
| use cards now.
|
| >> i cannot EDC the thing due to its heft
|
| Ha ha! I EDC'd a WorkChamp for a long time. Super handy.
| Not that comfortable!
| leeoniya wrote:
| > I would probably go for that if I carried cash much -
| but I pretty much just use cards now.
|
| i don't use it for cash, either. but it's extremely thin
| and is comfortable in the jeans front mini-pocket. much
| lower profile and no cheap plastic compared to their
| standard keychain knife:
|
| https://www.rei.com/product/403028/swiss-army-classic-
| knife
|
| the clip portion of it goes high enough on the frame
| where you could use it as a pocket clip, with ~0.3"
| protruding upwards.
| evilduck wrote:
| m0llusk gave a great answer, but to add to it, they aren't
| the same types of knives either.
|
| You can buy a Victorinox Swiss Army knife (SAK) in exactly
| one blade steel and it's a stainless steel that's extremely
| soft, relatively speaking. That's actually a good thing for
| most casual users since it's fast and easy to sharpen,
| resilient to abuse, and being stainless, easy to maintain.
| However, it will not stand up to a lot of normal usage before
| the edge dulls and it just doesn't perform well anymore.
|
| By contrast, the Manix's base model uses S30V and you'll
| probably get three or four times as much use from it before
| it dulls. Spyderco is also a "knife enthusiast's knife
| company" and they make a lot of their knives available in
| other varieties of steel too. One variant is Maxamet (a tool
| steel uses to cut other metals) and you'd easily have an edge
| on that variant last probably 10 times longer than a Swiss
| Army knife, but at the cost of having a more brittle edge
| that is much more difficult to sharpen and it's not a truly
| stainless steel either, so you have to be mindful of rust and
| exposure. If you're in a job position where you use it a lot,
| like in a warehouse where you cut pallet straps and break
| down boxes constantly, the steel variant choice can easily be
| the difference between needing to touch up the edge every
| single day vs. once a week. Spyderco also makes an entire
| lineup of knives that can withstand saltwater exposure
| without needing constant maintenance, something that would
| render a Swiss Army knife useless quickly. Those attributes
| mean the cost difference can be just about anything if the
| real world choice is between "useless hunk of rust" and
| "usable".
|
| There are also economies of scale. Victorinox sells a lot
| more SAKs than Spyderco sells Manixes, they stamp out their
| blades by the thousands, if not millions. Spyderco probably
| doesn't make more than 100k Manix knives a year. A single
| Manix also has about as much steel in it as 2 or 3 SAKs (the
| blade is two or three times thicker at the spine), the handle
| material is nicer and more expensive, the construction is
| maintainable, the lock is stronger and more intricate. Also
| there's a machining cost difference, you don't stamp out
| thick blade blanks of high end steels, you have to cut them
| out of a billet. Grinder belts are a consumable that are used
| to sharpen a knife and they last a lot longer for soft steels
| vs. hard steels. That cost as well as the additional time an
| employee spends on it goes into the knife's cost. Spyderco's
| Manix is made in Golden Colorado, which also has a high cost
| of living and afaik they compensate their employees with a
| livable wage (I've been to their factory outlet several years
| in a row and keep seeing the same faces).
|
| All that said, knives can also be pocket jewelry and there's
| a whole world of stupidly expensive knives out there that
| enthusiasts push up the prices of, just like there's stupidly
| expensive cars, watches, keyboards, shaving razors, dress
| shoes, sneakers, streetwear, raw denim, etc, etc. You can
| easily reframe your question as to why a pair of Japanese raw
| denim jeans costs way more than twice as much as a pair of
| Wranglers at WalMart, given that they're just pants. Or why a
| Lamborgini costs more than a Civic, given that they're just
| cars, or why a Keycult keyboard resales second hand for $4k
| when you can buy a Dell OEM keyboard for $15.
| thinkmassive wrote:
| The Spyderco is "just a knife" but the Victorinox is more of
| a multitool. Yes, the multitool has blades, but they're
| typically thin and don't lock back. Basically the Spyderco is
| excellent at many cutting tasks, and a Swiss Army Knife is
| rarely the best tool but might be the only one you have
| available for a wide variety of tasks. Choose the right tool
| for the job.
| _jal wrote:
| Varying opinions already; here's one more.
|
| I see it as a category thing; a multitool has a knife, but is
| not a pocket knife. It is fine for cutting things in a pinch,
| but is terrible for much use - the ergonomics are all wrong,
| it is heavy and awkwardly shaped, and usually the blade shape
| is going to be very generic.
|
| As far as cost, it is like anything else - you pay for
| quality. Others have covered this, I don't have anything to
| add, other than a rule of thumb - if you've never sharpened a
| knife, you will probably not find much value in nice ones.
|
| As far as value, that's up to you. I use a knife daily, some
| days more than anything else I carry with me. If you don't
| need one, then it will be worth far less to you.
| causality0 wrote:
| Several years ago there used to be a site called KnifeTests where
| a heavyset man dressed like a serial killer put a variety of
| cheap and very expensive knives through horrific levels of abuse.
| Using the tip to dig through a 2x4, hammering it through a steel
| pipe, putting in a vice and standing on it, bending the blade
| back and forth, slicing a variety of materials including
| concrete.
|
| The one thing that really stood out was INFI steel. That stuff
| may as well be magic. It's honestly hard to even get anything
| made with it these days but if I had to trust my survival to one
| metal INFI would be it.
| [deleted]
| parsimo2010 wrote:
| Wow, the author went pretty deep on this. I was expecting
| something like, "Bohler wins because M390 is best hurr dee hurr."
| That's the typical fare on knife forums at least (but substitute
| whichever super steel is your current favorite). But this piece
| really earns the "knife steel nerd" name and has a pretty solid
| history and covers a lot of technological developments over the
| years.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| Question for the steel and knife enthusiasts.
|
| With modern metallurgy and machining techniques, could you design
| a sword that if transported back in time, would be looked at as a
| magical weapon (perhaps due to its strength, weight, cutting
| ability, etc?). What would you design?
| hchz wrote:
| Since the art of swordfighting is lost, you'd possibly engineer
| an incredible "long knife" that a professional swordsman would
| regard as unsuitable for combat or of mediocre value.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| We have enough old swords from when swordfighting was
| important that we should have some idea of what traits were
| valued.
| abakker wrote:
| This isn't a complete answer, but, modern powder metallurgy
| along with exacting thermal control can make some blades that
| would probably take impact MUCH better than medieval ones. You
| could achieve more hardness and toughness with modern steels.
| stx wrote:
| I would not call him a metallurgist but this guy has tested a
| bunch of steels using an unscientific rope cut test and
| documented them in a spreadsheet. He was the first one that
| convinced me to spend over $100 for a cpm-s30v knife and it was
| way better then anything I had before in edge retention.
|
| His data cant be that bad though because I built a model to
| predict the number of cuts for a blade using edge angle and metal
| compounds (no real way to take into account heat treat though).
| It was relatively accurate for the less exotic steels. I should
| really share that with the world.
|
| https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-JoL9yU...
|
| He also records videos of himself and posts them to his youtube
| channel along with other knife reviews.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfnpxD9uzHLaSr3DN55g
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