[HN Gopher] How the heart influences what we perceive and fear
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How the heart influences what we perceive and fear
Author : CapitalistCartr
Score : 95 points
Date : 2020-07-17 11:50 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.quantamagazine.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.quantamagazine.org)
| known wrote:
| Heart has got its own brain
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takotsubo_cardiomyopathy
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Q: Is the described effect moderated by blood pressure? In other
| words, if one's blood pressure is higher, does the systolic
| effect rise in intensity relevant to the neurological processes
| discussed in the article? I would guess so but the article
| doesn't really get into that.
| sradman wrote:
| > Cardiac activity can be divided into two phases: systole, when
| the heart muscle contracts and pumps out blood, followed by
| diastole, when it relaxes and refills with blood.
|
| Respiration, acting through the sympathetic (fight or flight)
| nervous system (breathing in) and the parasympathetic (feed and
| breed) nervous system (breathing out) also impacts the heart as
| measured through Heart Rate Variability. Like many systems in
| biology, I suspect there is a network of feedback loops at play
| and they act in both directions.
| elric wrote:
| The way I understand it is that this is partly a mechanical
| property as well: the chest cavity expands/contracts while
| breathing, which impacts how much room organs have, which can
| then stimulate nerves etc.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| Reminds me of a personal experience I had with general anesthesia
| and a remembered "dream" segment of calmly wondering if I had
| died of complications and the afterlife was just this void. The
| current theory of mechanism for anesthesia is that it stops
| nerves from carrying signals to the brain which would be
| consistent with the lack of fear in considering what would be a
| premise of horror short story.
| bllguo wrote:
| A bit off-topic, but this has puzzled me for awhile: there are
| times when at night I will suddenly feel like my heart is beating
| ridiculously quickly and loudly. It subsides with deep slow
| breaths. The strange thing is that I've tried putting my hand
| over my heart during these episodes and physically it does not
| feel that my heart is beating abnormally. Any ideas what's
| happening?
| pkaye wrote:
| Heart palpitations? I had a similar feeling when I got up in
| the night to urinate. I used a pulse oximeter to reassure
| myself that its okay and eventually over the weeks it stopped
| happening. I think there a lot of common causes as listed in
| the link below.
|
| https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heart-palpita...
| bllguo wrote:
| thanks, didn't know what to search. striking to me that it
| seems to be all mental. I suppose it's reassuring that this
| is somewhat common
| rootinier wrote:
| My heart brought me a solid anxiety disorder. I have ventricular
| extrasystoles, been to a couple of different cardiologists, done
| longtime ecg monitoring, echocardiograms and everyone told me my
| heart is fine, and I should chill.
|
| Coupled with low blood potassium levels and increasing distrust
| in my heart, I developed a fear that I could get ventricular
| tachycardia, and basically die instantly. I'm 33.
|
| I know it's slightly off topic, but just be happy if you don't
| feel your heart beating and it's doing its work without you
| noticing. In my case, my anxiety disorder and fear is increasing
| adrenalin, making my heart stumble even more. It's so annoying
| knowing all that, but the emotions are just overwhelming and it's
| really hard to fight this.
| standardsam wrote:
| What you're describing is common and you can recover, I
| recommend a book called DARE - it changed my life.
| libraryatnight wrote:
| Once talking to my therapist about anxiety I get at night and
| can't sleep, she innocently asked "Can't you listen to the
| sound of your own breath or focus on your heart beat..." she
| didn't get any further. I instantly said "Dear god, no. If I
| focus on my heart beat at any moment I spiral into an anxious
| depressed mess"
| voisin wrote:
| Is this an acute awareness of your heartbeat or is it that your
| heart beats more intensely?
|
| I ask because I used to have panic attacks and I would become
| suddenly aware of my heart beating faster than normal but my
| heart rate monitor showed it was not, and my blood pressure
| monitor showed I was still normal - it was effectively only my
| awareness that was out of whack for whatever reason. I was
| turned on to meditation and can count on one hand the number of
| times I've had these panic attacks in the last year.
| rootinier wrote:
| Fast, constant and rhythmical heart beats are nothing I worry
| about. Extrasystoles are pretty much one heart beat out of
| the normal rhythm (coming from the ventricle in my case),
| followed by a pause (compensatory pause). Your heart
| basically stops for one beat, and then resumes. And this
| pause feels really uncool.
| nonbirithm wrote:
| I have had this exact feeling regarding my heart for a year and
| a half and until now felt nobody understood.
|
| For me it is constant chest pain that comes and goes
| essentially whenever it wants. It is quite varied and never
| fails to keep worrying me with its novelty. Sometimes burning,
| sometimes squeezing, sometimes stabbing. Been to the doctor and
| ER dozens of times. No diagnosis. And it isn't even correlated
| with anxiety as far as I can tell, although the anxiety only
| makes it worse. Sometimes NSAIDs make the pain unbearable.
| Sometimes they don't.
|
| It doesn't even make sense because as far as I understand the
| heart isn't innervated, so why is the pain _always_ on the left
| side of my chest?
|
| I went to urgent care and they reported my cholesterol levels,
| etc. were excellent.
|
| It's so terrible because the heart is critically tied to our
| ability to continue living through unconscious action, and so
| anything regarding it feels completely out of control in the
| moment. Meaning your instant death is out of your control. Now
| have that on your mind for 365 days and see how it feels.
|
| So after spending dozens of times trying to figure out if
| something's wrong with my body, seeing as it's probably trying
| to send some sort of signal, and completely failing to come up
| with an answer, what else is there left to do? Worry about
| dying every single day?
|
| Early on I got so many palpitations I was sitting in bed
| holding a heart monitor on my chest until 3 in the morning.
| This was when I was 23 and started to regret all the life
| decisions I had made in college to feel this awful and scared
| about my health that young. Today if I get like three
| palpitations in the span of five minutes I'll be completely
| unable to keep focusing on work and go off trying to manage the
| anxiety in the hopes of not dying.
|
| If anything it's pushed me to eat more vegetables and such, but
| I don't know if it will end up helping.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| > Sometimes NSAIDs make the pain unbearable.
|
| This sounds like an upper digestive tract issue. You should
| look into Roemheld Syndrome. https://cara.care/digestive-
| disorders/upper-abdomen/roemheld... I was having a lot of
| feelings of skipped heartbeats and my doc realized I was also
| having a lot of digestive issues so he told me that Roemheld
| seemed most likely. What I noticed is that skipped beats
| occurred around the time when I needed to burp. The burping
| releases pressure on the vagus nerve which goes to both the
| heart and the stomach. When I realized this my anxiety was
| much reduced.
|
| In my case I found that I needed to limit chocolate
| consumption, sit up straighter and practice deep breathing.
| sandman1906 wrote:
| Have you considered that it might be costochondritis?
|
| I'm 23 and healthy. I went into ER a few months back with
| high heart rate, chest pressure, and palpitations. They
| couldn't find anything wrong with my heart, monitored me for
| a few days and discharged me without a diagnosis.
|
| For 2-3 weeks after that I still had that same occasional
| chest pressure/tightness. This might be a coincidence but it
| started easing away when I started doing various exercises
| meant for costochondritis.
| rootinier wrote:
| If it helps, I can completely understand your feelings. It's
| the same for me. If there are more palpitations "than usual",
| I lose my concentration and start thinking whether I should
| pay the ER a visit. All the best to you.
| jpxw wrote:
| I have the exact same issue, been going on for three years
| now. I've also spoken to a psychologist, but nothing has
| helped so far. The feeling of chest pain is impossible to
| ignore. It feels hardwired.
| kqr wrote:
| I feel you. I occasionally get fairly strong palpitations that
| can last up to a minute in the worst cases (they seem to come
| in spells during various times of my life), and it does really
| feel awful. The first period it happened I got some bad
| hypochondria. (And I was thoroughly checked up multiple times.
| Nothing detectably wrong.)
|
| I'm more used to it now, but the sense of doom still passes
| right through all my reasoning layers.
| rootinier wrote:
| Yup. Hypochondria is what they told me as well. But in my
| opinion, most of the doctors don't experience this on their
| own, they read it in books and studies. That's why they often
| can't really help you.
| rootinier wrote:
| Wow, I'm surprised how many replied and have similar
| experiences. There are a few things I'd like to add, because I
| did learn some things in the last 7 years since it started.
|
| - Cognitive-behavioral therapy did not work for me. The thing
| is, as soon as your heart wants your attention, you're
| submissive. I talked a lot with psychologists, but it didn't
| get better.
|
| - Running to the ER and being dismissed with good blood samples
| helps. But only for a limited time.
|
| - Stress is very bad. Not long ago I had a very arduous
| business call with a former co-worker and I felt one
| extrasystole after another. As if my heart would want me to
| calm down ;)
|
| - SSRI (e.g. Escitaloprame) are really powerful. They did not
| cure my extrasystoles, but they prevented things like panic
| attacks. Side effects are note worthy though, you pretty much
| lose a lot of your sexual energy.
|
| - and if you're into medicine, SSRI may also _produce_ new
| cardiac problems, such as QT-interval prolongation. It 's a
| vicious circle.
|
| In the end, I think, the heart is much, much more than a
| muscle. I always hope that someday I'll find a doctor who gives
| me the answer I'm searching for so long, what exactly is
| causing all this.
| say0nara wrote:
| Did you try Mirtazapine? I could not sleep because my body
| would "randomly" produce adrenaline. I would feel my heart
| frequently. I woke up at night, typically at 2 or 3, and
| could not fall asleep again.
|
| Mirtazapine is not an SSRI, but it is an anti-depressant that
| blocks adrenaline receptors. My resting-heartrate went from
| 95 to 55 from one day to another.
|
| The first few days my body felt a little heavy, but after
| that I had absolutely no side effects at all.
| x87678r wrote:
| I have something similar. If you hook me up to an automatic EKG
| it will say I'm having an infarction right now. Makes me want
| to stay away from ERs as they'll put me on some treatment for
| heart attacks without thinking.
|
| Right now the extra stress and weight gain gives me much worse
| heart palpitations. Its hard when that happens to relax when
| you have to think whether something serious is finally
| happening or just another blip.
|
| This stuff is just supposed to work.... never had to worry
| about any health stuff when I was a teenager.
| rootinier wrote:
| Yup, I was once misdiagnosed with Brugada syndrome by a young
| doctor. That really didn't help in making me more self
| conscious about my heart.
| algorias wrote:
| I also have VESs (among other things), and I can confirm that
| they indeed feel quite nasty. In my experience, the heart seems
| to have a direct connection to the lower-level emotion-
| regulating parts of the brain, and any physical symptoms can
| trigger an overwhelming sense of imminent doom that completely
| bypasses the filters of my rational mind.
|
| But I can also tell you that you eventually get used to it, and
| it just becomes a part of life. Feel free to drop me a line if
| you want to talk about it sometime (my username over at the big
| email provider with a G)
| kingkawn wrote:
| If you do get a VT you can gently massage your carotid arteries
| in your neck until help arrives.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2737783/
| brevacor wrote:
| Look into EMDR.
| marz0 wrote:
| Have you tried supplementing with magnesium? Seems to help a
| lot of people with anxiety, including myself. There also seems
| to be a link between low magnesium levels and heart rhythm
| issues.
|
| > The risk of heart rhythm problems with low magnesium levels
| is particularly high in people who also have low potassium
| levels. [0]
|
| [0] https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/ask-the-
| doctors-...
| athenot wrote:
| At the risk of sounding obvious, it is always a good idea to
| get labs drawn _first_ and then consider supplements if
| needed. Blindly taking supplements can cause issues in the
| opposite direction.
|
| Most of us taste our food before deciding whether to add
| salt, same should go with supplements.
| darkerside wrote:
| Have you done any mindfulness training?
| thdrdt wrote:
| I don't want to be rude because you are being helpful, but
| mindfulness is not the answer to everything. Mindfulness made
| me even more anxious because what I really needed was to see
| a psychologist.
| mr_overalls wrote:
| Just to provide an additional data point, I've sought
| relief from anxiety in meditation, failed, and then found
| great relief in cognitive-behavioral therapy. You're
| exactly right in that what's needed sometimes is
| conventional help from psychologists.
|
| A few years ago, I delved again into meditation, this time
| more traditional Buddhist ones. I can't say emphatically
| enough that there is some deep knowledge there. Mindfulness
| (i.e. cultivating stable attention toward internal &
| external stimuli) is just the tip of the iceberg.
|
| Like you, I found the expanded sensory stream provided by
| mindfulness training to be somewhat overwhelming. Imho,
| what's necessary to work with it fruitfully are: 1)
| developing the capacity of non-abiding, or not
| attaching/identifying too much with the flow of mental
| events, 2) training the unconscious mind to competently
| manage one's attention & awareness, so that you don't have
| constantly "pilot" your self.
|
| Two books I've found indispensable are: The Mind
| Illuminated - John Yates, and The Rinzai Zen Way - Meido
| Moore
|
| Of course, there's no substitute for a good teacher. Just
| be aware that there are many charlatans & New Age types who
| aren't so helpful. Good luck!
| darkerside wrote:
| Agree it's not a silver bullet, especially when someone
| needs actual medical help. But mindfulness can certainly
| help break the cycle of self perpetuating stress.
| rootinier wrote:
| Tried it, with limitted success. Maybe I should dive in
| deeper.
| flatline wrote:
| My experience with lay practitioners (such as myself) is
| that you may have to try a few different things to find
| something that works while living a regular life. The Mind
| Illuminated, the Sedona Method, Louise Hay, the work of the
| stoics, yoga, qigong, therapy, all provide different
| approaches to developing emotional intelligence and
| managing difficult states of mind. I did zen meditation for
| a decade and while it provided many benefits I still
| struggled with anger in my day to day life. Two months of
| reading about and applying the stoic principles completely
| changed that.
| darkerside wrote:
| It's not going to solve all of your problems. But I know
| it's possible to be so anxious that you can't even bring
| yourself to get other forms of help you need. And in other
| cases, it can help break the vicious cycle you described.
|
| Learning to slow down and breathe are the simplest thing
| that many never learn.
| kylestlb wrote:
| I am your exact same age and have exactly what you described
| except for the potassium levels. It really sucks. It's weird to
| realize that most people out there don't feel their heartbeat
| constantly, because it's been a background noise almost my
| whole life.
| rootinier wrote:
| Yeah, my potassium is not constantly low. It's great and sad
| to hear that there are people out there with similar issues.
| I also feel my heartbeat effectively all the time. Caffeine
| makes it worse, so does alcohol. I stopped drinking alcohol,
| it made it a tiny bit better.
| troughway wrote:
| Aside from VESs; isn't a strong heart beat that you can
| feel (and sometimes hear if someone puts their ear to your
| chest) a sign of a healthy heart? I'm not talking about
| fast palpitations, but rather feeling your heart through
| your chest wall, albeit at a regular, steady rhythm.
| kqr wrote:
| For the most part, your mind will tune out the regular,
| "background" rhythm of the heart. When it deviates from
| normal, or if you have certain special sensory
| differences to regular people, it makes you aware of it.
|
| But normally your mind should tune it out unless you
| focus on it.
| rootinier wrote:
| Not so sure. Palpitations are often nothing serious, but
| what I heard is that not feeling your heart beat is
| normal. Except when you exercise hard. I feel my heart
| pumping when I lay in bed an my pulse is 60-70 bpm.
| troughway wrote:
| I've been told otherwise by a doctor (not a
| cardiologist), and I've always wanted to know a
| definitive answer on this but it's hard to find
| information on the subject; almost all literature is
| focused on the rate of heartbeat, not on the loudness of
| the drumming itself.
| yalok wrote:
| When I experienced somewhat similar symptoms, I ended up
| stopping to consume any caffeine (was mostly tea for me),
| and significantly reduced sugar - and started feeling much
| better.
|
| Other things that helped was regular exercise, with good
| cardio load, and getting enough sleep.
|
| Hoping in God and the eternal life definitely helped with
| the anxiety part.
|
| Hope you feel better.
| rootinier wrote:
| Thank you.
| throwaway_USD wrote:
| >I know it's slightly off topic, but just be happy if you don't
| feel your heart beating...
|
| When I was a kid I used to complain of episodic pains I would
| get in my heart, and as a child I described it as feeling like
| lightning shocking my heart. After some testing I was pretty
| quickly diagnosed with supraventricular tachycardia.
|
| I feel pretty grateful as I never had to have a heart monitor,
| take meds, and as far as I can recall the last episode was
| sometime in high school (maybe 20 years ago), I hadn't really
| thought about it in a long time, but you made me realize now
| how bizarre it was to "feel my heart".
| elric wrote:
| I feel your pain, and it sucks. I was sent to an ER after my GP
| noticed something wrong with my heart during a routine
| checkup..that was easily the scariest afternoon of my life.
| There is something profoundly frightening about a doctor
| telling you to get your arse to hospital ASAP because your
| heart is fucking up.
|
| Several stressful hours later, the verdict came back: nothing
| abnormal. Of course, ever since that incident, my heart as been
| on my mind a lot more than I'd like. Getting a single skipped
| beat or a few palpitations sets me on edge. But the attention
| only means I notice more "errors". No heart is perfect, they
| all skip a beat every now and again, so I "know" it's OK, but
| it doesn't feel OK anymore. It's a particularly unpleasant kind
| of anxiety.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Shootout eyes are probably just a western trope (I would guess
| "soft eyes" would be more effective) but if saccades are tied to
| the cardiac cycle
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00100...
| it would, in principle, be advantageous to draw during an
| opponent's saccade.
|
| (compare the scramblers in _Blindsight_ )
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