[HN Gopher] Headphones are collecting too much personal data (2019)
___________________________________________________________________
Headphones are collecting too much personal data (2019)
Author : teddyh
Score : 312 points
Date : 2020-07-26 14:51 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.soundguys.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.soundguys.com)
| ddingus wrote:
| Not mine with the simple wire.
|
| The digital video transition has been a net good, though I will
| say analog output is easier, takes fewer resources, but those are
| plentiful. No worries.
|
| Audio isn't the same. All existing gear remains relevant.
|
| The data collection is something I hate viscerally.
|
| Also why I do not stream music.
| retrac wrote:
| Only a slightly related tangent, but most headphones and other
| loudspeakers can be very effective microphones when wired into
| the right circuit.
|
| While speakers are often wired directly to a one-way DAC, that's
| not always the case. Sometimes the analog lines are all fed into
| a multiplexer and it can be routed to a ADC. Sometimes it's wired
| to a general purpose IO pin.
|
| In such cases, reprogramming could turn that speaker into a
| microphone. I wonder if anyone has exploited this in the wild
| yet.
| jacquesm wrote:
| You can do the opposite of noise cancellation too: determine
| the back emf from the speaker compared to the audio input, that
| will give you the audio in the room. So you can use the same
| circuit both to drive the speaker _and_ use it as a microphone.
| As good as undetectable until you trace the circuitry of what
| looks like an ordinary amplifier. The difference is on the
| order of a few mV but that 's more than enough.
|
| My personal favorite is the laser attack that turns any shiny
| surface into a microphone. When it's not on it literally isn't
| there.
| rightbyte wrote:
| If you have noise cancelling there is allready mics right?
| jacquesm wrote:
| In this particular scenario there wouldn't be.
| layoutIfNeeded wrote:
| No need to use a laser if there's an incandescent bulb in the
| room: https://www.wired.com/story/lamphone-light-bulb-
| vibration-sp...
| jacquesm wrote:
| Oh that's a neat one. Thank you for that link.
| mixermachine wrote:
| Most bluetooth headphones already have a mic ^^. At least the
| ones I own and the ones I found after a short Amazon search.
| [deleted]
| segfaultbuserr wrote:
| See _SPEAKE(a)R: Turn Speakers to Microphones for Fun and
| Profit_ https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.07350
|
| If you are a hacker who removed microphones from your computer
| but is worrying about this exploit, fortunately, a simple
| mitigation is possible - just put an audio amplifier or unity-
| gain buffer between the speaker and the audio output port, so
| the audio signal cannot travel back to the audio chip. Any "Hi-
| Fi" headphone amplifier can be used, but a $0.5 opamp is enough
| - a daughterboard can be tiny enough to fit inside a laptop.
| elvicherrera wrote:
| Is there a true app that, preferably open source, that can
| disable the all microphones, confidently, for all apps, without
| having to physically disable my microphone as Edward Snowden
| suggested?
| teddyh wrote:
| If one app can turn the microphone off, can another app turn it
| back on?
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Depends on the permissions model of the OS, and if you trust
| the OS. Hence why Edward Snowden and Bunnie Huang developed
| the Introspection Engine [1].
|
| It's reasonable to assume that if you can't audit and review
| the code of the app and the OS, you can trust neither and
| need safeguards at lower levels of the stack.
|
| [1] https://www.tjoe.org/pub/direct-radio-
| introspection/release/...
| monadic2 wrote:
| You forgot the firmware of the headphones!
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Corded headphones! :) at least until open firmware
| exists.
| treve wrote:
| Ever tried to connect a corded headphone into a
| microphone jack? It works quite well
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Is there some kind of diode for AC signals?
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Yes, they're called amplifiers. Directional coupling
| circuits would apply in theory, but not in practice;
| they're good enough to do full-duplex audio over two
| wires, but not nearly good enough to deal with the
| sensitivity of analog inputs if you want to prevent a
| signal from being read.
| monadic2 wrote:
| How can you trust the hardware is not recording?
|
| I've never felt better about connecting "dumb" headphones.
| njloof wrote:
| (2018)
| shbooms wrote:
| An article complaining about the collecting and sharing of users
| personal data from a blog site that connects to facebook, google
| analytics and other third-party services to collect and share
| their users data? Oh the irony...
| jacquesm wrote:
| I've seen this comment or a variation on it a thousand times
| now and it is getting boring. Just like all the other times:
| please comment on the message rather than on the means of
| delivery, finding pages without social media embeds is becoming
| more and more rare and besides that the party writing the
| article content may not have control over that particular
| aspect. But that doesn't mean they don't have a point.
| patrick451 wrote:
| They author may not be able to control the social media
| embeds of this particular site, but they certainly have
| control over where the choose to publish. I see nothing wrong
| with taking them to task for this sort of hypocrisy.
| jacquesm wrote:
| No, they don't always have that control. Maybe in this case
| they do, maybe they don't. But your typical author is in
| someone's pay. And they probably don't have the pick of
| where to publish besides the bulk of the places where you
| can work and write articles that reach a sizeable audience
| will have this kind of environment.
|
| Anyway, seeing the same comment over and over again reduces
| its value. It was a cool observation the first time, boring
| the second, redundant after that.
| renewiltord wrote:
| There is no value in calling out hypocrisy. If a murderer
| outs another murderer now you know about two murderers.
| Saying "you're a murderer too, you hypocrite" has no
| epistemological value.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| While I agree in principle, this kind of observation is getting
| awfully close to mister gotcha[1]. Whenever the topic of, for
| example, google analytics comes up on HN, many reasons are
| given for why the alternatives are inferior. And that's from
| people intimately familiar with the tech. I'm not sure how you
| can expect a site whose revenue probably comes exclusively from
| Google ads to be able to effectively resist the Google/Facebook
| duopoly.
|
| [1] https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
| acd wrote:
| I tend to use passive headphones with 3.5mm jack, they have no
| electronics in them except the small speakers. They do not
| collect data. They are also used by musicians when doing audio
| mixing so its should sounds neutral and good.
|
| That the headphones does not have electronics and batteries means
| they will last longer and thus be be better for the environment.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _they will last longer and thus be be better for the
| environment_
|
| This isn't necessarily true.
|
| My wireless headphones have been with me for years. My wired
| earbuds are cheap enough that I can lose or damage them without
| care. The former are far better for the environment.
| perl4ever wrote:
| Seems to me that the baseline assumption should be if you
| spend more, net, on the wireless (or wired) headphones, the
| environmental impact is probably greater. A million reasons
| can be given why the cost isn't _exactly_ proportional to the
| environmental impact, but any time someone _starts_ by
| assuming it 's unrelated, I think they are probably not
| making good decisions.
| ck425 wrote:
| Well duh. Obviously if you buy cheap headphones and
| constantly replace them that's bad for the environment. The
| grandparents point was that if you buy good wired headphones
| and use them for the same amount of time you'd use wireless
| ones it's far better for the environment.
| organsnyder wrote:
| Of course it's not a universal rule. But apples-to-apples,
| with a wired vs. wireless set of similar construction, cost,
| and intended use, the wired will outlast the wireless, solely
| due to the battery (not to mention the other complexities
| inherent to a wireless set).
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _apples-to-apples, with a wired vs. wireless set of
| similar construction, cost, and intended use_
|
| These aren't independent variables. Most consumers I know
| will pay more for wireless headphones. They're more
| convenient, and they're anchored at a higher price point.
|
| As such, I've watched lots of friends go from buying cheap
| earbuds monthly to having a pair of AirPods for years.
|
| There is a lot of moralising around wired versus wireless.
| I'm pushing back against that fad.
| atoav wrote:
| My Sennheiser HD25 have been with me for 10 years and I
| stepped on them, dropped them used them outside in the rain,
| in sub zero degrees and three times a week while jogging.
|
| 10 years of that is a _heavy_ thing to survive. In fact I
| know hardly any object that would have survived this long.
| arendtio wrote:
| My Sennheiser RS180 died a few month ago after about 8
| years or so. They had normal rechargeable batteries, but it
| seems it was something else that broke down (the batteries
| got replaced a few times).
|
| For my Sennheiser MB 660 I just replaced the ear cushions
| after about 3 years, but I am still 'worried' that some day
| the built-in battery will give up. Not because I can't
| afford new ones, but because I hate if a product dies due
| to an old battery.
|
| I own a few wired headphones/headsets, but there is none I
| used as much as my RS180 and when I think about it, I doubt
| that the cable would have survived the usage. Actually, I
| had to repair one of the wired headset once. The MB 660 can
| be used with a (removable) cable, but I use it only on
| airplanes or when the device I want to use has neither USB
| (dongle) nor Bluetooth.
|
| While I am privacy savvy person, my bigger concern is about
| health. Having an active unit all day in such proximity to
| my brain, makes me wonder if they are actually that safe to
| use.
| throwaway_pdp09 wrote:
| I wonder if wireless ones can be hijacked and requested
| to produce and ultra loud pulse to damage hearing. I
| suppose that's possible with wired ones buy I guess you'd
| need to broadcast plenty of energy for them to pick up,
| which makes it impractical, whereas with wireless ones
| you just need to get control of the signal. I'm guessing
| though.
| hurxnid wrote:
| Yes I had some 555's for almost 18 years of DAILY use and
| abuse and the band up top eventually broke. I could replace
| it if parts weren't more than a new pair.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| I bought $100 wired 'gaming' headphones 8 years ago and
| they still sound amazing and are as comfortable as when I
| bought them. I didn't give a shit about handling them well,
| since they were only $100 and seemed to have a very durable
| construction. The earpads are starting to get torn up from
| use, but those cost $10 to replace. The headband cushion is
| nonreplaceable but is only just starting to show any wear
| now.
|
| Well-built wireless headphones have a lifespan of a few
| years; well-built wired headphones have a lifespan of [?],
| as long as they are designed so that the wear parts can be
| replaced (earcups, headband cushion, cable).
| gambiting wrote:
| The problem is that your wired headphones _might_ break if
| you 're not careful, but if you don't then they will work
| essentially forever. Your wireless headphones on the other
| hand _will_ break at some point because the tiny lithium
| battery inside them will eventually stop holding charge. It
| 's not a question of if but when.
| unholythree wrote:
| As an addition to you post: my wired headphones do break,
| but I can solder things at maybe a .1 mm scale. With
| wireless headphones repairability is beyond my ability in
| many cases.
| arendtio wrote:
| I am aware that most wireless headphones use built-in
| batteries nowadays, but strictly speaking, your argument
| doesn't relate to wireless headphones, but to products with
| non-replaceable batteries.
|
| The Sennheiser RS180, for example, had rechargeable and
| replaceable batteries inside. Ironically, mine died a few
| months ago, but I am still not sure what the cause was.
| Kye wrote:
| All my MDR-7506s needed after 3 years was new ear pads.
| djkoolaide wrote:
| Going on 10 years with mine. There's a reason 7506s are loved
| by engineers around the world. Every part is user-
| serviceable.
| dkersten wrote:
| I love my 7506s too! Best headphones I ever bought.
| jcims wrote:
| I can't prove if everything you said is true or not but I like
| the way you lay it out there. :)
| pwdisswordfish2 wrote:
| There is an even easier analysis. If you were designing your
| own headphones just for your own use, would you have them
| collect personal data? If your answer is no, then choosing
| headphones that do not collect data is a logical choice.
|
| The author cites some idea of "trading" ongoing collection of
| personal data^1 for features but I can't see how that applies
| here, assuming the user has already paid for the product, e.g.,
| he has already paid for the headphpones.
|
| 1. This does not appear to be a one-time, voluntary submission
| of data by the purchaser. For example, submitting one's name
| and a product serial number in order to register for a
| warranty.
| tdons wrote:
| I (and many other engineers I know) do this too, and for a good
| reason. It's a simple system.
|
| Same reason I don't use WiFi at home but ethernet: it's simple.
| xcambar wrote:
| > It's a simple system
|
| Even though I get your point and I am convinced you're using
| "simple" aptly, I will nitpick the obvious: passive
| headphones can be deceptively simple or a marvel of
| engineering.
|
| If you didn't get the chance to listen to some music through
| proper audiophile headphones, I do recommend to spend some
| time at the closest audio retailer and live the experience.
| secondcoming wrote:
| You have LAN ports in your bathroom?
| myself248 wrote:
| One port, singular -- there's not enough knee real estate
| for multiple devices.
|
| Open the laundry chute, it's in there along with a Thinkpad
| brick, both wired up from the basement. Ends have magnets
| that captivate them to the chute door for safe keeping.
| z3t4 wrote:
| Its good to take a pause from the screen now and then, for
| example when you go to the toilet.
| dkersten wrote:
| Also, how long are people spending on the toilet that
| they need Internet? And is hygiene not a concern?
| sslayer wrote:
| Of course, what are we, un-mannered savages?
| IncRnd wrote:
| Me, too! I use the $1 ones from Dollar Tree. They are easy to
| replace, come with microphones if desired, and work just as
| well on calls as expensive solutions. They don't always last as
| long, but purchasing 10 at a time fixes that.
|
| These little earbuds are commodity items.
| fffernan wrote:
| I'm wondering if someone could file HIPAA complaint at them and
| get these things classified as Medical Devices and shut this
| sharing of bio data down. A simple opt-out doesn't fly with
| HIPAA. It requires a signature that you will allow another person
| to access your medical records.
| bitwize wrote:
| For now, Bose QuietComforts appear to pair just fine with
| Bluetooth without requiring the Bose Connect app, so that's how
| I've been using them. I'm afraid that non-smart headphones will
| soon go the way of non-smart TVs.
| coronadisaster wrote:
| This reminds me that I still need to root my phone so that I can
| remove Google's crapware...
| RealStickman_ wrote:
| It'd probably be easier to just go and flash lineageos and
| microG (if you need that) than trying to remove google stuff.
| deeblering4 wrote:
| Not mine! They are wired, and will always be.
| api wrote:
| Everything spies on you. There's money in it.
|
| I've come to believe that this can only be fixed with legislation
| and regulation. There are no technical fixes that could
| practically be deployed as there is far too much "attack surface"
| and anyway there is zero incentive to deploy them.
|
| In the meantime: install as few apps as possible on phones, be
| careful about IoT and personal assistance devices, and use Apple
| or Linux (not Android) based systems as they seem to have the
| best record for security and privacy.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| iOS exploits are cheaper than Android exploits because they are
| so plentiful. Plenty of apps on iOS have been caught activating
| the camera or snooping on the clipboard on iPhones.
| RealStickman_ wrote:
| If you use Android you have to install a custom rom though to
| guarantee your privacy.
| Bluecobra wrote:
| Ahh, this is real reason why the phone manufacturers want to get
| rid of the headphone jack. I was so naive to think it was only
| about DRM/licensing.
| gruez wrote:
| Isn't this really only an issue if you use the companion app? I
| doubt the usb-c/lightning/bluetooth headphones can exfiltrate
| data if you don't have the companion app installed.
| Lio wrote:
| You also can't get firmware updates if you don't install the
| companion app and allow them to spy on you.
| BTCOG wrote:
| Why on EARTH would anyone EVER need to update firmware for
| a pair of headphones? That's asinine.
| com2kid wrote:
| To work around Bluetooth bugs in newer phones/OSes that
| come out.
|
| Bluetooth stacks constantly get broken with new
| revisions, the burden is unfortunately placed on
| individual device makers to update to work with whatever
| has broken recently.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| The Bose 700 recently patched in EQ support, I'd say
| that's a reason.
| BTCOG wrote:
| So to each of you with the same response; You're totally
| ok being sold an unfinished product, paying too high of a
| price for it, and then having to opt into privacy
| violations to use a device which should have worked from
| day one out of the factory. Got it. Noise cancellation in
| headphones is a gimmick and a fad. High end studio
| monitors do not typically use it, and it distorts the
| experience. It makes sense if you're constantly packed in
| like a sardine on public transit or crowded spaces and
| you're simply trying to block out the surroundings, but
| may I suggest buying a real pair of headphones and
| carrying a pair of earplugs instead? To be very clear on
| my point. I see needing to update headphones and being
| conned into my headphones masquerading as a "smart
| device" equal to needing a smart toaster, or a connected
| can opener that some would justify should need firmware
| updates. It's senseless.
| jungturk wrote:
| You are surprised that devices can be improved after
| their launch via software updates?
|
| Or that people will see that as valuable?
|
| Or that people have different preferences in their
| products than you?
| ubercow13 wrote:
| How's it different to any other software? Why should I be
| sold an 'unfinished' PC operating system that requires
| updates? Is that asinine?
|
| You don't have to update any firmware if you don't want
| to. It doesn't mean the product is unfinished. In the
| past, improvements to firmware would have just been kept
| for the next revision of a hardware product, requiring
| you to pay for a whole new physical product just to get
| that new software.
| wongarsu wrote:
| I suspect they liked the device in the state they bought
| it in, and were pleased when it later got even better at
| no extra charge (except for installing the app).
|
| You can still buy dumb headphones without Bluetooth or
| noise cancellation of you don't like smart devices.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| EQ was not a feature sold to me, it's a free addon, a
| nice to have.
|
| Noise cancellation is great for those of us that have to
| work in noisy environments, or for neurodivergent people
| that need a break from information overload, or for long
| haul flights... or any number of scenarios you have not
| considered, as if nothing outside your little bubble
| matters. And let me guess, your "sardine in public
| transport" remark is just rubbing in that you don't have
| to rely on such either, isn't it?
|
| Besides the point that noise cancellation can be turned
| off at any time, I have a perfectly fine pair of
| ATH-M50x's for use at home.
|
| This comments reeks of ugly elitism and a severe lack of
| capacity for empathy. Maybe sometimes you should just not
| write whatever comes to your mind.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Better ANC is the usual reason.
| gmrple wrote:
| In my case improved noise cancellation.
| jdsully wrote:
| Why do my headphones need firmware updates? Presumably they
| work fine at purchase.
| nogabebop23 wrote:
| why do keyboards need firmware updates and companion
| apps? yet, that's exactly what my razer mech KB required
| for me to change the slow fade in/out to just "on".
| Pretty ridiculous and I too uninstalled it after, but who
| knows if I got it all?
| ubercow13 wrote:
| Because they have complex software in for bluetooth
| connection, noise cancellation and other behaviours like
| automatically switching off when taken out for example.
| You don't have to update it of you prefer not to.
| throwaway8941 wrote:
| Noise cancellation sometimes gets better (or worse) after
| a firmware update.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| Bose also added the in-device EQ to the Bose 700 via
| patch a few months ago.
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| Because we cut a corner somewhere to make a budget device
| and realized it was a lot more popular and now we have to
| patch it like if it was a fucking nuclear reactor....
| t0astbread wrote:
| Patching a nuclear reactor sounds scary
| blackflame7000 wrote:
| Nothing a little Gorilla Glue can't handle
| aragorn9 wrote:
| which is why bose for example only let you configure noise
| cancelling through the app.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| There's a button on the Bose 700 to toggle between 10/5/0
| jsmith12673 wrote:
| That's news to me. Guess I won't be ditching my QC25's
| soon/or ever
| kyrra wrote:
| I got some Bose 700 this past week. There is still a
| button on these to adjust noise cancelation.
| oarsinsync wrote:
| My QC35IIs have a button on the side to adjust noise
| cancelling. No need for an app.
| lozenge wrote:
| The app lets you set the levels the button cycles
| through, and also set an auto off timer and some other
| odds and ends.
| wongarsu wrote:
| All features that couldn't be reasonably configured
| without an app
| pureliquidhw wrote:
| I think you need the app to switch that to noise
| cancellation level from digital assistant activation.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| the bose 700 has 3 buttons
|
| one for on/off, hold to pair, hold long to reset
| bluetooth
|
| one for noise cancellation
|
| one for assistant
|
| in addition it has the transport controls / battery
| response touch controls on the right earcup
| pureliquidhw wrote:
| I was referring to the parent's QC35II's which has an app
| configurable button for voice assistant OR noise
| cancellation adjustments.
|
| The newer Bose 700's do have all that you have listed.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| I only installed the Bose app when I was going to be on a
| plane, as the app allows you to pair multiple Bose
| headphones to one source. Then you can watch the same movie
| with someone else.
|
| Edit: Bose also had a nice big opt-out button in the app,
| and asks during setup.
| Shalle135 wrote:
| With the app you can also change the cancellation level,
| they're pretty isolated even with the feature powered off
| entirely but it helps out in some situations.
| bitwize wrote:
| My Boses allow you to set the cancellation level with a
| button press. It cycles through three options: high, low,
| and off. Does the app enable more fine-grained control or
| something? Perhaps per-ear cancellation settings?
| egypturnash wrote:
| My QC35s don't have that button. It's only available in
| the app, and there is no fine-grained control or anything
| - just high/low/off.
| [deleted]
| imglorp wrote:
| Or just update your firmware and then remove the app.
|
| Not just Bose, the Sony WH* series is also guilty of this.
| Great cans, awful app.
| BTCOG wrote:
| Great headphones would never require an app or updating
| of the firmware. They should play music as engineered and
| intended from day one of the purchase of said heaphones,
| until they no longer work.
| 14 wrote:
| I agree they should just work but I also think their
| could be good cause for an update such as an improved
| noise cancelation software updates. I would expect that
| for music playback that just works always even if you
| decline the update.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It has an app?
| Shish2k wrote:
| Sony has the worst app I've ever seen[1], to the point
| where I legitimately don't know how it passed the app
| store vetting process. Paragraphs of text have wrapping
| disabled so that the text goes off screen (important
| text, like the TOS!). Text which does have wrapping
| enabled wraps on character boundaries instead of word
| boundaries. Bullet-point lists don't line up. I have no
| idea how they made it so bad, it feels like it must've
| taken effort to disable things which just work by
| default?
|
| [1] Circa 2018, I switched to Bose after that...
| jacquesm wrote:
| It also has two buttons. I really don't see the need for
| an app. Besides that I don't have a phone capable of
| running an app so that saves me from getting irritated at
| Sony. Again.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I'm curious about the Sony App. What information does it
| get from the phone? The only kind of sensitive permission
| it asks for is location, and arguably there's a
| functionality related to that (change the adaptive sound
| reduction as a function of where you are). The other
| permission it asked for is Bluetooth, which I guess is
| expected since it uses that to talk to the headphones. It
| never asked for anything else.
|
| I didn't allow it to get my location and I can still get
| firmware updates and can use it to confirm the codec in
| use (that's the main reason I have it installed).
| jungturk wrote:
| Access to the Bluetooth service itself can cause some
| problems - both in user tracking (as your device notices
| and is noticed by other discoverable Bluetooth devices),
| fingerprinting, and through access to the bluetooth data
| channels (as mentioned in the article with the Bose
| Connect app)
|
| https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/bluetooth-
| surveillance...
|
| https://www.soundguys.com/bose-allegedly-tracks-your-
| informa...
| month13 wrote:
| After the AirPods Pro noise-cancelling-regression
| (resolved, albeit after months), this may be a desirable
| feature.
| Answerawake wrote:
| Are you talking about Rattlegate? From what I understand,
| it has been resolved by Apple replacing many people's
| earpods.
| lights0123 wrote:
| Thanks for mentioning that, one of mine has been doing
| that for months and I'm contacting support now that I
| know that it's a common thing.
| [deleted]
| ryder9 wrote:
| fearsturbation > reality
| snvzz wrote:
| As usual, if there's no headphone jack, I won't buy that
| device. Privacy isn't even the deal breaker there. Latency and
| the ability to use my favourite set (Sennheiser HD600) are.
| wiredfool wrote:
| I like my grados, but my old sennheisers were perhaps a bit
| more comfortable.
| johnnycab wrote:
| I felt cheated after falling for the mass hysteria, which
| lead me to acquire my first set of SR-60. It didn't take
| very long to realise how uncomfortable they are for longer
| listening periods, or when the cable turns into a tangled
| mess, and the special hell, when you have to replace the
| earpads.
| snvzz wrote:
| I never liked any of the Grados I tried in shops. They do
| sound offensively colored. I don't get the appeal.
|
| Most headphones do sound colored relative to the HD600,
| but the key word is 'offensively'.
| ubercow13 wrote:
| Can a phone reasonably drive such high-impedance headphones
| anyway?
| bdefore wrote:
| With a pocketsize amp yes.
|
| When at my desk, I plug in through a Mont Blanc FiiO for my
| Beyerdynamic headphones. Makes a big difference with some
| audio. Wireless buds are obviously already a step down from
| wired, and one step further from amplified cans. And yeah,
| I'm an outlier and want to be.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| But there are combined DAC/amps that will use lightning
| connectors, so if you use an external amp, you might as
| well use an external dac/amp instead and get audio
| quality that is certainly no worse than a random android
| phone, and possibly better.
| snvzz wrote:
| Typically at the expense of latency, unfortunately. High
| enough to dramatically worsen the experience of rhythm
| games.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| As one data point, the headphone jack-having iPhone would
| drive 26.39 mW into 33 ohms, which means that at max volume
| you'd be damaging your ears at a volume of around 100dB
| with the 300ohm impedance and 105dB/mW SPL.
|
| So yes, the previous poster could conceivably be doing the
| thing that they said they were doing.
| ubercow13 wrote:
| Their sensitivity is only 97dB/mW. But I think it's more
| complicated than that. The amplifier might be able to
| deliever 26mW into 33 ohms but can it deliver that into
| 300 ohms? It would have to be able to produce high enough
| voltages. Also the impedance goes up to almost 600 ohms
| at the resonant frequency of the headphones, requiring
| even more voltage [1]. You'd obviously get some sound and
| it would probably even be loud enough, but there would
| likely be a significant effect on the frequency response
| and possibly more distortion that you'd like.
|
| [1 PDF]
| https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD600.pdf
| sudosysgen wrote:
| My LG phones can drive monster planar magnetic headphones
| easily, HD600 are nothing as long as you buy a phone with a
| good amp.
| joshspankit wrote:
| My first Fiio product was a cute little amp with a battery
| inside, worked a treat when the phone couldn't drive the
| headphones
| snvzz wrote:
| When the volume is set quite high (near max setting of the
| phone, definitely unhealthy for long-term use), it doesn't
| hold a candle to the Topping DX3 Pro v1[0] I use on my
| desktop. Important: I don't recommend the v2[1] that's
| currently on sale, as the measurements aren't anywhere as
| good. They did destroy the product with the amp redesign
| they did to get around a high early failure rate hardware
| problem on the v1 that they were never able to debug. I
| would suggest the JDS Atom + Atom DAC set or the Topping
| DX7 Pro instead, cheap (yet powerful well measuring) and
| expensive (but balanced and ridiculously well measuring)
| respectively. Or a Schiit Hel for a very portable usb-
| powered solution for the laptop backpack that also has mic
| input.
|
| But at lowish volumes (used most of the time, don't destroy
| your ears!) then yes, phones tend to have reasonable
| headphone amps in them. With decent power output and lowish
| output impedance. Unlike most computer motherboards, which
| have excessive output impedance and out power is so low I'd
| call anemic, when not flawed in other ways (noise due to
| poor isolation, or non-flat frequency reproduction due to
| shit implementations of aliasing filters).
|
| I mostly connect the headphones to the phone to play rhythm
| games like Love Live sif, allstars or idolm@ster deresute,
| mirishita. My phone (chinese and a few years old) does very
| successfully drive the HD600 to a pleasant output while
| playing these games.
|
| As an aside, I absolutely recommend Sennheiser HD600 to
| anyone who wants a durable (plus tool-free modular with
| good availability of parts, and compatibility with
| HD580/58x/650(aka 6xx),660S parts, thus effectively
| forever) all-rounder open back headphone with a focus on
| accuracy that's cost efficient and extremely comfortable.
| Plus they've been around for a good two decades, thus
| there's no shortage of reviews to base a purchase decision
| on.
|
| [0]: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?thr
| eads/r...
|
| [1]: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?thr
| eads/m...
| ta17711771 wrote:
| Could be a comfort thing, could be a "don't want to throw
| away perfectly good hardware" thing.
| dangoor wrote:
| There were two things that happened when Apple got rid of the
| headphone jack: (1) they added water resistance, (2) the phones
| got thinner. Plus, Apple had seen the trends heading toward
| wireless headphones.
|
| They still included a dongle to give you a standard headphone
| jack.
|
| While Apple could likely have gotten their water resistance
| even with the headphone jack, they couldn't have made the
| phones as thin. People may disagree with the product choice,
| but I don't see any reason to think that those weren't the real
| reasons.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| > the phones got thinner
|
| No. They didn't.
|
| iPhone 5: 7.6 mm thin, 6: 7 mm
|
| iPhone 7: 7.1 mm
|
| > While Apple could likely have gotten their water resistance
| even with the headphone jack, they couldn't have made the
| phones as thin.
|
| Except that's a pretty obvious lie. Not just that the phones
| did not get thinner (or lighter), they stayed around the same
| thickness (+- 0.5 mm), while getting larger, much heavier and
| much more expensive. But also the thinnest Android phone with
| a 3.5 mm jack is just 5.1 mm thick, for example. Sony even
| made a waterproof phone that's 6.5 mm thin and still has a
| 3.5 mm jack, which is thinner than any iPhone ever.
|
| Everything about this argumentation is wrong or an outright
| lie. The only reason they did this is because they could
| moneygrab through accessoires better when they eliminate
| standardized I/O.
| hanche wrote:
| The explanation/excuse I recall seeing, was about space,
| not thickness. The headphone jack takes up space inside the
| phone that they'd rather put to other uses, like more
| battery for example. At least, that seems to make a bit
| more sense.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Yes it does. I think back then teardown pictures made the
| rounds where the innards of the two generations where
| virtually the same, except they added some component
| where the headphone jack used to be. And as far as
| smartphone components go, a 3.5 mm jack is pretty big;
| I'd guess about the volume of a camera module.
|
| I don't know who started the thinness-jack meme, I
| suspect it was an explanation made up by people other
| than Apple, since Apple is usually more into omitting
| things instead of lying.
| dangoor wrote:
| Thank you! I stand corrected.
|
| It looks like the reason most cited, in hindsight, for
| Apple removing it was to pave the way for a design without
| bezels and with more speakers
|
| https://screenrant.com/why-apple-removed-the-headphone/
| https://bgr.com/2017/10/06/pixel-2-headphone-jack-iphone-
| x-d...
|
| Which is, indeed, a very different reason.
| joshspankit wrote:
| It would be _very_ straightforward as well to simply come
| up with a new thinner analog headphone jack: maybe
| something balanced and with a magnetic connector since
| we're at it?
| jdkdodo wrote:
| The only reason? Doesn't shallow dismissive posting violate
| comment rules here?
|
| It's almost as if "every argument I make about frugalness
| and standards is maybe leading me to ignore other
| considerations."
|
| "Pros" continue to make use of their wired kit, and it
| changes the math of recurring waste problem; I've thrown
| away many fewer pairs of $30 earbuds since iPhone 7. Saved
| money and generated less consumer waste over the long run.
| Now scale that up to the iPhone user base.
|
| You seem to believe human agency must be functionally fixed
| on how we used to do things. Or at least how you have been
| lead to believe we did. Turns out iterating away through
| new invention is how we do things. Or do you have your wax
| cylinders ready?
|
| And for people that want a wire a 2" dongle is available.
| Given all else they get with a life that affords an iPhone,
| oofda what a stretch.
|
| Let's get to the back of the line with our first world sour
| grapes a bit. I can see how broader utility was enabled in
| a variety of ways.
|
| Sorry you haven't been able to cope with, really, such a
| trivial change in 5 years.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| > Doesn't shallow dismissive posting violate comment
| rules here?
|
| Despite being aware of this, you went on to create a
| posting that's largely assumptions, projections and some
| salty ad-hominem.
|
| > Sorry you haven't been able to cope with, really, such
| a trivial change in 5 years.
|
| I haven't upgraded my phone in a number of years, so it
| actually still has a headphone jack, which I virtually
| never use since I don't listen to music on the go.
| joshspankit wrote:
| I would argue the the camera "bump" means that the phone is
| not actually thinner anyway. Honesty means measuring
| thickness by it's thickest point.
| coliveira wrote:
| They "had seen the trends heading toward wireless headphones"
| or they wanted to create the trend and sell their own
| headphones? The second explanation seems much better.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| The Samsung S10 line is water resistant with a headphone jack
| just fine.
| walls wrote:
| The phones are thicker now than they ever were with the
| headphone jack. In fact, the 7 was the last version to get
| thinner.
|
| https://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/articles/301929-image/iP.
| ..
| dexterdog wrote:
| Does anybody other than PR/marketing people care about
| phones being thinner than they are? It's just an excuse to
| not give better battery life which costs money.
| thoughtstheseus wrote:
| If anyone thinks this is concerning wait until LIDAR becomes a
| standard feature.
| monksy wrote:
| The article should have buried sony for how egregious they are.
| They require the app to collect location information, and ear.
| https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00233341 I'm
| not sure what else they collect.. but those are the 2 bad ones.
|
| They've got a few settings that are software controlled (one
| being the bluetooth's internal volume) What happens if you get a
| software update and you open the app on a plane without wifi? You
| can't use it because it requires the internet to get the latest
| _required tos_ to use your headphones. You can't proceed further
| without being forced into an agreement. Clicking "don't accept"
| pushes you back to the tos screen.
| Teledhil wrote:
| I have the WH-1000XM2 and the location permission is optional
| if you want the app to change noise cancelling profiles
| according to what you are doing (walking, running, on the bus).
| The ear scanner is another optional thing you can do to improve
| the 360 audio which only works on a few apps.
| niklasd wrote:
| I recently tried out wireless noise-cancelling headphones from
| both Bose and Sony, and (the important privacy issues aside)
| the user experience with these apps is just horrible.
|
| You unpack your Bose headphone, eager to use them. But before
| that, you have to download an app on the iPhone, then download
| a software update program on your laptop, which in turn opens a
| program in the browser that downloads an update, then you
| connect the headphones with a wire to the laptop that the
| update gets installed, and THEN you can start using them.
|
| I send both back and now I'm a happy AirPod user.
| hinkley wrote:
| So far Shure hasn't done anything that dumb, but you have (or
| rather, had. They seem to have to be coming out with over the
| ear model) to be ok with tethered headphones.
|
| I kind of like the tether. Harder to lose them under a
| bookcase. And less of a problem if they plop out during
| exercise.
| riquito wrote:
| I don't know about Bose, but you can connect the Sony
| headphones with the normal bluetooth pairing, there's no app
| required
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| I have the Bose Quiet Comfort 35 II. I use them with a
| MacBook Pro through Bluetooth pairing. I never installed
| any app and never connected the headphones physically to
| anything.
|
| What is the OP talking about? And why would anyone install
| an app to use headphones?
| monksy wrote:
| Good luck when internal settings get changed (as in
| internal volume)
| 0_____0 wrote:
| long time user of the sony wh-1000xm2. never have had any
| such issue. i have noticed that it seems like the headset
| and phone have independent volume controls but both phone
| and headset have physical controls, no app required.
| flyinghamster wrote:
| I am fervently glad that I'm happy with my WH-1000XM3 in its
| stock configuration. I took one look at what the permissions
| they wanted for the app, and said "No effing way."
|
| I shouldn't have been too surprised, though, given that it was
| Sony that brought us rootkits on music CDs.
| uoylj wrote:
| The only reason I keep the app is to turn on/off "wind noise
| reduction" while walking by the sea... reconsidering if this
| is worth it.
| mandelbrotwurst wrote:
| Geez, that's brutal. I'm glad I'm seeing this....it never
| crossed my mind that this sort of thing would be something that
| might get built into headphones.
|
| If I want to avoid this sort of thing, I'm thinking / hoping
| it's sufficient to simply avoid headphones that require an app.
|
| Does that seem right?
| monksy wrote:
| I mean you can't really avoid it. It's pushed on to you and
| theres no clear understanding about how tied the headphones
| are until you buy it.
|
| The WH-1000MX are very good headphones, but sony gonna shit
| the bed. (PSN anyone)
| jmole wrote:
| They're a company that makes a lot of decisions from the
| viewpoint of participants in a high-trust society like
| Japan. Many times, those viewpoints don't translate well to
| other markets.
| monksy wrote:
| That trust is hugely misplaced. They frequently make
| terrible decisions that negatively affect others.
|
| - Them being hugely defensive about the fan backlash over
| Tlou2 https://www.altchar.com/game-news/sony-contacts-
| website-over... - They've removed early release
| credentials from reviewers who give sour reviews - The
| shit return policy for the digital only games - The way
| they are trying to push digital only
|
| etc. I realize Sony isn't the only one doing this but
| with every iteration it feels like they are trying to be
| as crap as possible.
| mandelbrotwurst wrote:
| Hmmm....well, I'm at least aware of the issue now based on
| this conversation and will definitely at least try to
| determine whether it applies to any of my future purchases.
| squarefoot wrote:
| "I'm thinking / hoping it's sufficient to simply avoid
| headphones that require an app."
|
| Every effing time they convince users to install an app they
| magically have a tool to steal peoples personal data.
|
| Not just headphones: the kids toy drone can be controlled
| using an app from the cellphone? The security camera just
| purchased doesn't use standard protocols over a web browser
| but needs its own app? The IoT system doesn't use standard
| protocols as well but forces the use of their app? Bad, bad
| and bad! And so on for every piece of hardware that needs a
| proprietary app that -betting all my horses on that- will ask
| for full permissions to access everything.
|
| In this context, headphones are among the easily replaceable
| accessories with secure and better sounding ones. Just get
| wired ones and avoid architectures that force the use of
| wireless phones just to make a bigger business out of a
| misfeature.
| josteink wrote:
| > If I want to avoid this sort of thing, I'm thinking /
| hoping it's sufficient to simply avoid headphones that
| require an app.
|
| Or just get one with a good old 3.5mm jack.
|
| Beyer Dynamic, AKG and Shure have several options much
| cheaper than these Bose or Sony headsets which still give you
| at least 10x the audio-performance.
|
| For headsets, if you care about usability, portability,
| longevity and performance, wired is still the no-brainer
| choice.
| Florin_Andrei wrote:
| > _Beyer Dynamic, AKG and Shure have several options much
| cheaper than these Bose or Sony headsets which still give
| you at least 10x the audio-performance._
|
| It's complicated.
|
| The lowest level opinion is "Bose and Beats are awesome,
| soooo much bass!!!" That's the typical consumer.
|
| The level above that is what you said. That's sometimes
| called mid-fi. At least these things don't have major flaws
| anymore.
|
| The next level is companies and products specifically
| focused on high performance - Stax, Audeze, Sennheiser,
| Etymotic, etc and their best models. That's the
| "audiophile" level (and here truth is mixed with a lot of
| bullshit also - stay away from head-fi.org, it's a cesspool
| of pseudoscience).
|
| And the level above that is when you realize imperfections
| in headphones can be corrected via DSPs, for the most part.
|
| I have the Sony noise cancelling flagship model. By
| default, it's deeply flawed. It's tuned to the taste of the
| average consumer at Walmart ("moar basssss!!!"). But apply
| the oratory1990 corrections (from Reddit) and they sound
| like some nearly-flawless high end devices. The corrections
| are based on precise lab measurements of the headphones,
| and basically revert some of their flaws via digital
| processing.
|
| The future is DSP.
| p1esk wrote:
| Good luck with this if you want state of the art in noise
| canceling
| josteink wrote:
| I've had the best heat headphones Bose has to offer in
| the Quiet Comfort series and to me this "state of the art
| noise cancellation" sounds like artefact- and distortion-
| inducing noise.
|
| I've returned them and replaced them with much better,
| naturally damping, closed head-phones. And the audio is
| so much better, at a fraction of the cost.
|
| Noise cancellation in the hifi-space is just snake oil,
| and I'm not having it.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| Does... does anyone actually think noise-cancelling is
| for increasing audio quality? I always thought it was
| just for handling obnoxiously noisy environments, like
| airplanes, screaming children, etc.
| mandelbrotwurst wrote:
| No one who's thinking through how it works, which is by
| picking up the ambient noise and then modifying the
| output to include the inverse on top of whatever you're
| listening to.
| p1esk wrote:
| How's the temperature of your ears after 2 hours in those
| closed back cans?
| mandelbrotwurst wrote:
| I use both wired and wireless. Each has its own tradeoffs.
| bosie wrote:
| usability and portability are what makes BT headphones
| great. Which BD or Shure gives me 10x the audio-performance
| while still being able to be used without cables
| (optionally)?
| josteink wrote:
| By portability I mean it can be used anywhere, with any
| equipment.
|
| There's still lots of places you won't find Bluetooth,
| but there's very few places you won't find a connector
| for a 3.5mm jack.
| bosie wrote:
| That's fine and my BT sennheiser still has a 3.5mm jack.
| Presumably so do most/all BT headphones?
| penguat wrote:
| Except of course smartphones
| baal80spam wrote:
| Imagine seeing such article title 10 years ago...
|
| What happened to the world?
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Lack of regulation and non-existent enforcement of existing
| regulation.
|
| People are used to the government being there to prevent
| companies from doing bad/dangerous stuff. It's why you can buy
| any food at any supermarket and be reasonably confident it
| won't poison you or be full of cyanide.
|
| People expect the same when it comes to technology companies,
| and I once did too - I expected that big companies would've
| already got in trouble if they did something bad so it must be
| safe. The problem is that is far from the truth.
| taytus wrote:
| Companies finally figured it out that nobody cares about
| privacy.
| skummetmaelk wrote:
| And that data is money.
| karmakaze wrote:
| Glad I've been using analog earbuds under non-connected noise-
| cancelling 'over-earphones'.
| phatfish wrote:
| The only thing that annoys me about this setup is noise of the
| wire brushing against clothing etc. Or if you eat with them on.
|
| With music playing the removal of external noise is enough for
| me. They do well enough blocking distracting noise used as
| simple ear plugs too. At least the ~PS20 Sennheiser ones I use
| do.
| [deleted]
| im3w1l wrote:
| Are these associated apps mandatory for getting the headphones
| working or are they just value adds?
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Just value adds, you can listen just fine without them. You
| might lose (in the case of the headphones that lead to the
| article) some fitness tracking features, ANC or EQ fine-tuning,
| or other additional functionality but they'll work just fine
| for audio.
| httgp wrote:
| To add to this list, they also let us upgrade firmware.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| Bose has a computer-based firmware updater over USB, I used
| it with their relatively new noise cancelling 700
| headphones since I don't use the Bose Music app. Website
| launches a Windows desktop application for the update.
| Worked great in a Windows virtual machine with USB
| passthrough.
|
| For older QC35 headphones there's a 'based-connect' repo on
| github that lets you configure the headphones;
| unfortunately the newer models such as the NC700 have
| encrypted firmware update files so I couldn't easily
| reverse engineer the protocol to get all the BT commands to
| configure all the options you can change in the app.
| Actually the app didn't even work on my Android phone
| without GApps, so I couldn't sniff the connection either...
| m4r35n357 wrote:
| Any is too much. Ditch them.
| maps7 wrote:
| As someone with both Bose QC IIs and the Sony WH-1000MX, this is
| annoying but not much I can do about it - they're expensive and I
| doubt I could resell them for as much (would reselling even be
| ethical now?). I also really like noise cancelling, especially
| now I am working from home.
| jakereps wrote:
| I mean you can just not use the apps, can't you? The headphones
| don't magically ship data home through the device. The app is
| what you agree to their privacy policy through and is what
| reads all the metadata through usage and then sends it home. I
| deleted all of my headphone apps the first time I saw the note
| about sending all audio titles to Bose in the privacy policies.
| maps7 wrote:
| Oh that's fine then. I don't use the apps at all - I think
| they were required on set up though.
| myth2018 wrote:
| Drugstores in Brazil are doing it and that concerns me A LOT.
|
| Their modus operandi is to ask you your CPF (it's like an SSN,
| but not that secret and powerful) and, if you refuse to tell
| them, you are not eligible for some discounts which can reach 40%
| in some more expensive items.
|
| Customers happily agree to give their CPFs, completely unaware
| they are of the potentially disastrous consequences, and we are
| not even offered something resembling a privacy policy.
|
| Think of the uses of such data. Health insurers could use them to
| detect and even predict health issues. One could estimate
| menstrual cycles and even the size of your genitalia.
|
| A Brazilian data protection law is about to become active within
| the next weeks, but honestly.. such data shouldn't even be
| collected at all.
|
| I'm looking for support for a bill to forbid drugstores to
| collect CPFs and to offer any sort of discount to people who
| identify themselves, but I believe this should be more publicized
| before being discussed for voting by the Congress. The more
| active drugstores on the "data business" are part of huge chains
| and their lobby will definitely be massive. Society should be
| aware of that and counterbalance for such lobby.
| slim wrote:
| I think the partido pirata can help with this issue. contact
| them :
|
| http://partidopirata.org
| someguyorother wrote:
| How do they know the CPF you give is really yours (or exists at
| all)? Do they also insist that you use a credit card?
| rlayton2 wrote:
| This is a good point. I often "misspell" private information
| if its not an official form. If someone had more motivation,
| they could do a "different-secure-number-per-provider" trick
| and work out who leaked the information.
| qmmmur wrote:
| Mine don't because they're hard wired into whatever device I use.
| starky wrote:
| Exactly, it will be a cold day in hell before I buy a pair of
| headphones that I have to charge on order to make them work or
| have any "smart" features.
| Larrikin wrote:
| I broke down when I finally found good noise cancelling
| headphones that will continue working without battery. The
| annoying part now is that layering pass through audio of the
| outside world on top of what I'm listening to has become
| pretty nice.
| catchmeifyoucan wrote:
| I use Bluetooth headphones, but almost never use or bother to set
| up the associated app. So hopefully Bluetooth pairing alone isn't
| enough. Looks a lot of these details are collected through a
| companion app.
| _trampeltier wrote:
| Yes me too. I really never install such apps, because they are
| always bad in many ways. I just wanna a bluethoot speaker or
| headphone. I really don't care for the mostly useless fancy
| software things. And most of the times, it's even possible to
| use these things also with a 3.5mm jack
| IshKebab wrote:
| Sometimes these apps are necessary though. For instance you
| can only turn the Google Assistant button off on Sony
| headphones in their app, there's an additional (better!)
| noise reduction mode only available through the app, firmware
| updates are through the app, etc. (I get the firmware updates
| because I'm vaguely hoping that one day they will fix the
| hilariously annoying flaw that they turning them on always
| activates noise cancellation.)
| barry27 wrote:
| Good to see everyone responding in true HN style and just telling
| us about their own lives. Well done everyone on your choice of
| headphones.
|
| Did anyone else wonder how the headphones achieved the feat of
| measuring the author's leg length without their knowledge? Or of
| collecting menstruation statistics? I didnt know there was a
| Menstruation API on phones these days.
|
| In short, the author bought a pair of headphones that promise to
| do all sorts of amazing stats and then found it alarming when the
| headphones said that in order to do these stats they'd need some
| data.
| lysium wrote:
| > "Bose Connect app was found to be tracking what users were
| listening to and sending that data back to the company to be
| sold".
|
| I did not know that!
| josteink wrote:
| You buy the most expensive headsets in the premium-end of the
| consumer-segment, and yet you're still not the customer.
|
| Utterly disgusting.
| duxup wrote:
| TIL, Headphones have apps.
|
| Apps are quickly becoming this weird add on that I really don't
| want.
| luckycharms810 wrote:
| Apps are the new drivers.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Re: Personal fitness and menstruation history - Is that shocking?
| They're earbuds, but they're marketed as fitness buds that track
| personal data. It looks like Fitbit for your ears. Fitbit and
| Apple Health (or whatever it is called) does these kinds of
| things as well.
|
| Re: Bose collecting all that stuff
|
| I can see "why" they would want all that, in order to optimize
| their sound output of their buds to the kind of music and
| environments for which they are used. That should, of course, be
| opt-in, but I don't think it is evil.
|
| Do I necessarily like the latter example? No. I believe, like the
| "cookie policies" that exist on many websites, there should be
| "Needed permissions" and "Please thank you" permissions, and they
| should incentivize the consumer to help them out. Amazon does
| this on their Kindles: $20 off if you let them run ads on the
| lock screen.
|
| But if all the manufacturers do this, then what competition is
| there to push them to change?
| amelius wrote:
| > I can see "why" they would want all that, in order to
| optimize their sound output of their buds to the kind of music
| and environments for which they are used.
|
| I can't see why they would need so many samples. Wouldn't using
| the data from (say) 100 Bose employees be sufficient to cover
| most noisy environments these buds are used in?
| floatingatoll wrote:
| If you're trying for perfection, then not even remotely, no.
| The type of data provided by "one million users" will uncover
| issues that "one hundred users" simply never can.
|
| I believe it was iOS 10 or 11 developer betas that would, on
| each beta update, run a trial APFS conversion process against
| the phone's internal filesystem, check the result for
| consistency, and then _discard the replica_ and report
| success /failure w/ logs -- so that Apple could find the
| issues that they couldn't find at 'one hundred users' scale.
| renewiltord wrote:
| There's a famous Bose bughunt article that proves this not to
| be the case. I can't find where they posted it on a blog or
| something but here's the forum link:
|
| https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-
| Headphones/Bose-...
| lostmyoldone wrote:
| I see this as only another example of how markets with too
| little, or the wrong kind of regulation so easily creates anti
| consumer, or anti environment, etc behavior.
|
| ... Which makes total sense from a market efficiency point of
| view, at least as long consumers doesn't have perfect
| information and the time to stay informed about almost
| everything. Which isn't true, and people won't be, especially
| since the most basic decision theory that we can derive from
| our behavior would go almost entirely counter this.
|
| ... Which isn't strange at all as the number of new or changing
| facts that could affect our living situation probably didn't
| change as much from 150000 years ago, as changed last week
| alone.
|
| Sometimes I think one of, or maybe _the_ most damaging lie of
| our century is that we are generally capable of individual,
| rational thought for everyday decisions. We really are not, not
| to any significant fraction.
|
| Almost all our decision are derived from observation of very
| few instances, judging based on survival instincts, and social
| cost/benefits.
|
| In contrast much of rules regarding eg advertising and much of
| economic theory seems predicates that everyone has the time and
| energy to figure out which toothpaste company also are not
| totally exploiting some workers in some country five shell
| companies and thousands of miles away. But I digress.
| eigenvector wrote:
| Ordinarily when you pay $350 for headphones it is assumed that
| the vendor has already invested money in doing R&D to make them
| work properly and isn't planning to do testing on you without
| telling you or compensating you for it, to enable the
| functionality you already paid for.
|
| I bought headphones, I did not sign up for a research project.
|
| We went from paying for software to getting it for free in
| return for our data and now we're apparently giving over our
| data even for physical devices that we pay top dollar for.
| godelski wrote:
| > ow we're apparently giving over our data even for physical
| devices that we pay top dollar for.
|
| This is the thing that really bugs me. I don't like the user
| is the product aspect but I can at least understand it in a
| free setting. In a high case luxury setting where you aren't
| even getting a discount? That's just absurd. All they've done
| is increase their bottom end, give you no choice and no
| discount.
| mnm1 wrote:
| What sound algorithm uses menstruation data to optimize sound
| output?
| unethical_ban wrote:
| "Fitbit for your ears"
|
| Seems pretty clear it is advertised to do more than play
| audio.
| baochan wrote:
| How exactly does a headphone app have access to your alcohol use
| and menstruation history? Where is it pulling this data from?
| caymanjim wrote:
| They don't. The app may ask for it, and there may be some
| benefit to the user if they provide it, but it's not like the
| headphones magically acquire any of the data the author is
| complaining about.
|
| If people want to give their personal information out, that's
| up to them. I personally limit what information I share, and I
| get annoyed when devices or apps try to sneakily get more
| information than I'm willing to intentionally provide, but this
| article is silly.
|
| The younger generation has grown up without a sense of personal
| privacy, and they're largely ok with it. They will happily give
| away personal details in exchange for a "free" app or product,
| and they bend over backwards to expose their entire lives via
| images and videos on social media. There's always mock outrage
| when someone "discovers" that the reason the Internet is free
| is because someone is selling personal data to drive
| advertising, but everyone knows that. Most people just don't
| care.
| saurik wrote:
| They care. It exudes as a cynicism about the world and
| continual jokes about talking to the FBI agent assigned to
| watch them. They (as are we) are just powerless to prevent it
| as every single service and every single platform and
| apparently every single product is collecting data on us. And
| since the value of services and platforms and, sadly, even
| products goes up as more people are using them, the arguments
| of "don't use these products and vote with your dollars" that
| people constantly push are nonsensical: you can value your
| privacy but also value having a romantic partner, and most
| people these days use dating apps to date; you can value your
| privacy but also value getting invited to the birthday party,
| and most people these days invite everyone to their party on
| a social network; you can value your privacy but also value
| being able to travel, and so unless you want to be the one
| insane person in your friend group who doesn't use Lyft/Uber
| and never knows when the public transportation is running
| late and takes forever to book hotels (and always ends up
| spending a lot more when you do)... well, you are going to
| use a bunch of apps that do a bunch of data collection.
|
| People care. They have no choice.
| jjcon wrote:
| I dunno... when it comes to the tiny things this article is
| talking about I really don't care. This all seems like
| outrage in the name of a few clicks. That annoys me way
| more than my headphones asking to know how long I use them
| each day.
| renewiltord wrote:
| That sounds like you do have a choice: spend more money. In
| a world where this wasn't allowed, presumably you'd be
| forced to spend more money. So you can inhabit that world
| right now if you want.
| La1n wrote:
| >That sounds like you do have a choice: spend more money.
|
| This is not an option for everyone. Don't poor people
| deserve privacy too?
| wbkang wrote:
| It's one of the data types apple health can collect. The
| headphones app probably asked for all possible types of
| healthkit data.
| lrnStats wrote:
| If that stock takes a tumble, you can bet their marketing is
| going to drop the privacy branding.
|
| Everyone knows their customers are highly susceptible to
| marketing, it would be a gold mine.
| neiman wrote:
| If I had the resources, I would establish an organization for
| privacy badges for products. From "absolutely anonymous", through
| "necessary violations of privacy for function" till "unnecessary
| harvesting of data".
|
| Till such an organization for handing out badges will exist, it
| will be a hard task to buy any hardware and being able to trust
| its privacy.
| jakub_g wrote:
| ~ https://tosdr.org/
| neiman wrote:
| Thanks, looks great.
| teddyh wrote:
| Respects Your Freedom Certification:
|
| https://ryf.fsf.org/
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| With GDPR in place, "unnecessary harvesting of data" should in
| theory be a thing in the past (unless the user explicitly makes
| a voluntary choice to opt-in after being informed of the
| options).
|
| Reality is different, but NGOs can in theory sue to make
| reality align better with the intent of GDPR. NOYB
| (https://noyb.eu) is supposed to be such an NGO, and they seem
| to be doing a decent job so far, although they're limited in
| what they can do with their resources, facing a never-ending
| wall of vendors that blatantly violate GDPR.
| neiman wrote:
| Afaik GDPR allows harvesting of data as long as I agree to
| that in the user agreement. The problem is of course that
| more than once I found out the user agreements after
| purchasing the product, when it was too late.
|
| (I live in the EU, so GDPR is relevant to me)
| ktr wrote:
| Has anyone had any experience with new Bose headphones? If you
| use the Bose Connect app, I believe what the author wrote is
| accurate. But that app doesn't work on the newer headphones (at
| least, not the ones I have). Instead I need to download the "Bose
| Music" app which doesn't seem to give you the same options for
| privacy. And if you don't use that app, the headphones are much
| less useful (eg, no hardware controls to switch which device you
| are connected to).
| aragorn9 wrote:
| Why do you think they made a new app to begin with? the piracy
| policy is the same, its just after the media hype died down
| they saw no reason to add the opt out
| RealStickman_ wrote:
| > piracy policy
|
| Not sure if this was intentional, but it made me chuckle.
| bryanmgreen wrote:
| That being said, if anyone has unused corded Apple EarPods and
| the 3.5 to lightning dongle, hit me up!
| t0mmyb0y wrote:
| Why in the world would anyone need headphones that need personal
| info?
| qppo wrote:
| I don't know if this counts and I haven't seen it outside of
| research projects, but 3D spatialization (that's worth a damn)
| basically requires it be tuned for the user's particular head
| geometry.
| joshvm wrote:
| The top end Sony headphones actually ask for a photo of your
| ears to do exactly this. It's only for use with the fancy
| spatially aware apps - pretty much only Deezer does this at
| the moment?
|
| I signed up for a free trial (and I did send a photo of my
| ears), but I couldn't tell the difference and the HD library
| was so small it didn't seem worth paying monthly for it.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Everyone, including headphone manufacturers, are trying to get
| in on the gold rush that is turning their customers into fonts
| of personal data that can be sold to the highest bidder.
| zelly wrote:
| I see this sentiment mentioned a lot, but who actually pays
| for this data? Is there a company I can call that will buy my
| amorphous "user data"? What are their names?
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| One user is worthless, a few pennies. A million and things
| get interesting.
| zelly wrote:
| Say I have a database full of metrics, user agents, IPs,
| GPS, names, addresses, photos, etc. on a million users,
| who would I call to sell it? Genuinely curious.
| glenstein wrote:
| Here's a list of approximately a hundred companies that
| acquire and sell data in various ways, some of whom would
| plausibly be interested in your hypothetical trove of
| data:
|
| https://konsole.zendesk.com/hc/en-
| us/articles/217592967-Thir...
| vifon wrote:
| You don't call them, they call you.
| sebastien_b wrote:
| Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they
| don't exist.
|
| Ask yourself (as the article does): why would they even
| need this data? (menstrual cycle?? Really!?!)
| vongomben wrote:
| Well menstrual cicle is a gold mine. But I miss the
| connection with headphones...
| phreack wrote:
| The obvious reason is money and a lack of ethics, but the
| dogwhistle reason is that these headphones are supposed
| to be used with a health and fitness app.
| [deleted]
| coliveira wrote:
| The sad thing is that many people will think it is Ok to give
| them this kind of private information, just in exchange for some
| crappy, useless app. 20 years ago, if somebody said they cared
| about how many steps they walked, or how many minutes they slept
| more than last month, or how many minutes they looked at the
| computer, you would classify them as mentally sick. Except for
| specialists that do research in these areas, there is no reason
| to keep tabs on minutiae like this. This whole industry is
| training people to behave as the mentally retarded, and give away
| all their private information for nothing.
| rblatz wrote:
| Pedometers have been a thing for quite some time. It was about
| 20 years ago when one of my parents bought a pedometer, it
| didn't have an app, but it had an lcd display that told you how
| many steps you took.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| _Looking at my collection of Beyerdynamic cans_... they collect
| data?
| renewiltord wrote:
| If it results in lower prices, I'm fine with this. But they
| should be clear about what they're collecting.
| maest wrote:
| The move to no-jack phones really only exacerbates this problem.
|
| It's difficult for manufacturers to justify an app for wired
| headphones, but, now that bluetooth is becoming the new norm,
| there's suddenly a justification for instrusive, data-collecting
| apps.
|
| This whole story is a really good reason for keeping headphone
| jacks on phones.
| dkersten wrote:
| I would rather give up on a smartphone than give up on my
| wireless headphones. Hell, I was without a phone for a few
| months a couple of years back and it felt liberating. It'll be
| my excuse to be a permanent smartphone luddite.
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