[HN Gopher] C.I.A. Lacing (2014)
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C.I.A. Lacing (2014)
Author : scrps
Score : 122 points
Date : 2020-08-08 13:13 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.fieggen.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.fieggen.com)
| josefrichter wrote:
| This is a joke, right? Shoes laced like this are immediately
| noticeable and suspicious.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Are they really that noticeable? Assume black laces--the yellow
| in the illustrations is a callout effect rather than actual
| lace color.
|
| And if someone does notice, it seems a stretch that they would
| be suspicious. You could say you were feeling a creative
| streak. This is for message passing, not for wearing to GRU
| interviews...
| supernova87a wrote:
| I believe today you just say "hey, the drop is ready" over
| Signal.
| willcipriano wrote:
| Do you also send "the drop isn't ready" on other days? If not
| the fact that you sent a message tells the attacker everything
| without knowing the content.
|
| Also can anything be inferred by the length of the signal
| message? Do they pad they out or will all of the sudden sending
| a 2kb vs 3kb message give you away that something is different?
|
| Personally if my life is on the line, I'd stick with the
| shoelaces.
| ConsiderCrying wrote:
| Especially handy if you don't know the number of the person
| you need to contact or know their device has been
| compromised. No need to rely on technology when a simple
| trick will do the... erm, trick.
| airstrike wrote:
| Instead of using Signal you can just upload a specific meme
| to /r/wallstreetbets
| progre wrote:
| Didn't the 9/11 hijackers communicate by uploading images
| of basketball players to sports discussion boards?
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| Source if you have it please.
| stordoff wrote:
| Suggestions of coded messages/steganography were made,
| but I'm struggling to find anything concrete:
|
| > Suspected ringleader Mohamed Atta was seen repeatedly
| by witnesses using his Hotmail account at public
| libraries in Florida to surf the Internet, downloading
| what appeared to be pictures of children and scenes of
| the Middle East.[1]
|
| > Many of the hijackers were frequent visitors to
| libraries and internet cafes in Florida, where they are
| believed to have received their final orders in coded
| message.[2]
|
| Pre-9/11:
|
| > Through weeks of interviews with U.S. law-enforcement
| officials and experts, USA TODAY has learned new details
| of how extremists hide maps and photographs of terrorist
| targets -- and post instructions for terrorist activities
| -- on sports chat rooms, pornographic bulletin boards and
| other popular Web sites.[3]
|
| [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20011005232014/https://ab
| cnews.g...
|
| [2] https://www.theregister.com/2001/10/11/iomart_cashes_
| in_on_w... ([1] and [2] found via
| https://www.giac.org/paper/gsec/3494/steganography-age-
| terro...)
|
| [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20030606200613/http://www
| .usatod... (found via
| https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/11308369.pdf)
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| I wouldn't doubt they used stenography too, was just
| curious if you had a source. Thanks for the effort.
| xwdv wrote:
| Nope you can actually do it through traceroute far better.
| cheerlessbog wrote:
| Barely related, but if you haven't learned how to tie shoelaces
| instantly, you should:
|
| https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm
|
| I've been doing this for nearly 20 years.
| kbenson wrote:
| I learned about that knot (and about how the directionality of
| the traditional shoelace knot we learn matters for how secure
| it is) a year or two ago from HN. Unfortunately, I probably
| haven't worn anything with laces in more than 9 months. I'm a
| flip-flip kinda guy most the time, and when you combine that
| with me getting some boat shoes a while back and shelter-in-
| place...
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| May I ask, why do you say "flip-flip"? I thought the name of
| that footwear is "flip-flop"?
| corndoge wrote:
| Maybe because "i" is right next to "o" on qwerty?
| rolph wrote:
| these types of signals can be assigned different meanings, from
| day to day depending on briefings.
|
| it is also possible to depict roman numerals with lace patterns,
| and using under/over eyelet lacing to further increase to
| combinations or provide a bit of stego in the mix. you can send a
| shill signal with X's and a real signal with laces through
| eyelets.
|
| these sorts of things are used popularily and certain
| affiliations creedos or type of date your looking for in a fetish
| bar are often communicated by display of accessories.
|
| so its not a big secret anymore its just a matter of getting the
| context of the signal. so how you lace your shoes has different
| meaning in a night club than in front of the embassy
| ferros wrote:
| How covert is staring at someone's shoes trying to identify
| slight variations?
| almondgold wrote:
| Probably knew which variations to look for on top of looking
| for slight hints, while trying to show a lacking sign of
| confidence by looking down.
| elliekelly wrote:
| If you scroll down to the "CIA Lacing Gallery" you can see that
| on men's dress shoes the different lacing techniques would be
| pretty obvious with a quick glance. The laces are either - or X
|
| Direct link to one of the photos:
| https://www.fieggen.com/Dont_Link/CIALacing1a.jpg
| jmnicolas wrote:
| It depends where it happens : if it's a sitting meeting yes
| it would look strange. But in the street do you even look at
| passing people shoelaces ?
| pc86 wrote:
| If you're a spy and one of your assets is passing you a
| message, then of course you would.
|
| And if that's not the case, _you 're probably not looking
| at other people's shoelaces_ - which is the entire point.
| function_seven wrote:
| Well, don't _stare_ at them. You know in advance that your
| contact will be walking down Merriweather Lane at 11:30am. If
| his shoes sport a single "X" near the bottom, that means the
| dead drop has the microfilm ready for pickup. If it doesn't
| have that "X", then try again next Tuesday.
|
| If you see two X's in his lacing, the package is at the
| alternate drop site.
|
| If he has 3 X patterns, you're burned! Make your way to the
| safehouse after losing any potential tails.
|
| Glance quickly, agent, and keep moving.
| ferros wrote:
| Thanks for explaining like this. It seems from the downvotes
| to my comment most people don't see it as a valid question.
| NetOpWibby wrote:
| Par for the course here. Glad your question was answered, I
| was curious as well.
| unixhero wrote:
| Excellent description. Love it. I couldn't understand the
| website description of this technique.
| hinkley wrote:
| Sit at a cafe reading a paper or the menu, but look past it
| at the ground?
| rzzzt wrote:
| Use the standard issue prop newspaper with holes cut out
| for the eyes.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| The X as a signal is a big deal.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JMHrrSshgc
| stordoff wrote:
| This setup reminds me of operation PIMLICO:
|
| > Every Tuesday, shortly after 7:00, a British MI6 officer
| would take a morning stroll at the Kutuzovsky Prospekt in
| Moscow. He would pass outside a designated bakery at exactly
| 7:24 a.m. local time. If he saw Gordievsky standing outside
| the bakery holding a grocery bag, it meant that the double
| agent was requesting to be exfiltrated as a matter of
| urgency. Gordievsky would then have to wait outside the
| bakery until a second MI6 officer appeared, carrying a bag
| from the Harrods luxury department store in London. The man
| would also be carrying a Mars bar (a popular British candy
| bar) and would bite into it while passing right in front of
| Gordievsky. That would be a message to him that his request
| to be exfiltrated had been received.
|
| https://intelnews.org/tag/operation-pimlico/
| markdown wrote:
| That was poorly conceived. They'd have to keep those things
| stored somewhere for as long as the spy was active. What if
| a rat ate the last Mars bar at 6:00am?
| iooi wrote:
| Obviously HN always knows better, this reminds me of the
| Dropbox post.
|
| There's a great book that covers every single aspect of
| this escape, "The Spy and the Traitor" by Ben Macintyre.
| Rest assured that the British embassy had plenty of Mars
| bars and Harrods bags for this signal!
| kortilla wrote:
| Tell the rats that the Mars bars are off limits and they
| can stick to the Cadbury chocolates.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| This seems either unlikely or questionably competent.
| Gordievsky was well known to the KGB and loitering
| pointlessly outside a bakery would only have aroused
| suspicions - which would have been confirmed by the second
| agent, because anyone carrying a Harrods bag in Soviet
| Moscow would have stood out like a very obvious person of
| interest.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| It could be a matter of routine: Leave your house at
| 7:00AM every morning. Walk 15 minutes to the bakery.
| Order and be out the bakery door by 7:20AM. In normal
| circumstances, you just leave and go about your day. Only
| once would you stand around for an extra 4 minutes - say
| reading a paper, or eating what you just bought.
| Otherwise it looks like a normal routine.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> someone's shoes trying to identify slight variations?
|
| If you have a military background it is completely normal.
| Beyond boot polishing, how one ties one's shoes can identify
| their nationality, background and even trade. They don't think
| twice about looking at someone's shoes.
|
| There is an old method for spotting a US marine: Ask them to
| change their socks. The guy who takes one sock off at a time,
| changing one sock before even untying the second shoe, that's a
| probable marine. The guy who doesn't actually tie his laces,
| that does a strange wrap-around-then-tuck thing... US army. The
| guy who skips a few holes in the middle: air force.
|
| Think I am exaggerating? search youtube for military shoe tying
| vids:
| https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=military+shoe+l...
| NautilusWave wrote:
| Well that sounds like a very specific scene.
| aasasd wrote:
| In fact, Ian's Shoelace website mentions several lacing and
| tying methods used and prescribed in the military of
| different countries.
| StefanKarpinski wrote:
| Take a picture, it will last longer
| chrismeller wrote:
| You've clearly never been in the Eastern European countries.
| Eye contact is... iffy.
|
| There is an old joke. How do you tell an extroverted Estonian
| from an introverted Estonian? He stares at your shoes, not his
| own.
|
| There are (at least now) plenty of "extroverted" Estonians, but
| I've heard dozens and dozens of stories of the "don't make eye
| contact, just keep walking" variety during the USSR.
|
| Also, staring at either party's shoes may mean their own
| smartphone these days...
| aasasd wrote:
| Well, there's the answer for whether Estonia is a Nordic
| country.
|
| For the reference: https://images-
| cdn.9gag.com/photo/aj6MYgw_700b_v1.jpg
|
| https://external-preview.redd.it/UMjBaFaE-
| dFYMu_VZ8nKO4_tj0E...
|
| http://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-
| bu...
| pantalaimon wrote:
| Those images are much more commonplace these days
| searchableguy wrote:
| I sometimes wonder if FBI and other agencies release fake
| information so we all look out for them rather than their
| actual secret methods.
| c3534l wrote:
| They absolutely do. And they might release very good
| information along with a carefully planted piece of terrible
| advice. So you might see a tutorial about how to send drugs
| through the mail that is 99% good advice, and one piece of
| intentionally bad advice that police officers are currently
| watching extra carefully. You don't have to get very high up
| in government to see examples of people planting false
| information to lead people astray about how things really
| work.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| True story : I was devastated to learn that eating carrots
| for enhancing night vision was a WWII British hoax to confuse
| the Germans.
|
| I spent the better part of my teenage years eating raw
| carrots to be a better Ninja!
| kbenson wrote:
| You and me both! I mean, I like carrots, so I was eating
| them as a snack (my preferred method was to get a full
| carrot, eat around the core, and then eat the sweet core by
| itself), but I remember thinking whenever I got one "I
| wonder how much this will end up helping my vision" some
| day.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| That's true! To be more specific, the British had just
| invented the ground interception radar to spot incoming
| aircraft, and didn't want the Germans to think they had
| developed a technological solution.
|
| I don't know if they ever thought the myth would catch on
| as well as it did, but it's still widely believed today.
| (Perhaps because there's no downside, eating carrots is
| still good for you, it just doesn't improve your eyesight.)
| ThePadawan wrote:
| Additionally, sugar was also heavily rationed, while
| carrots (which are quite high in sugars) IIRC weren't.
|
| Carrot cake also had a surge in popularity at the time
| (if the great show "Supersizers eat..." is to believed).
| throwaway_pdp09 wrote:
| Huh. Didn't know. Proof
| http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/ww2carrots.html
| ahmedfromtunis wrote:
| > Decades later rumors swirled that the British Royal Air
| Force pushed that message as a cover-up for the recently
| adopted radar technology they were secretly relying on for
| their nighttime skirmishes.
|
| > whilst the [British] Air Ministry were happy to go along
| with the story [of carrot-improved vision], they never set
| out to use it to fool the Germans.
|
| > The German intelligence service were well aware of our
| ground-based radar installation and would not be surprised
| by the existence of radar in aircraft. In fact, the RAF
| were able to confirm the existence of German airborne radar
| simply by fitting commercial radios into a bomber and
| flying over France listening to the various radio
| frequencies!
|
| Link: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-
| fiction-c...
|
| I wasn't however able to find if there is any reason for
| the british to push such a message if it wasn't to confuse
| the germans.
| messe wrote:
| > I wasn't however able to find if there is any reason
| for the british to push such a message if it wasn't to
| confuse the germans.
|
| Could it have had something to do with rationing? Perhaps
| they were trying to increase carrot consumption.
| ahmedfromtunis wrote:
| Yep, that's what I thought too, but had no way of
| confirming it.
|
| It can also be that they wanted citizens to cultivate
| more of it in their home gardens for its nutritional
| values. But either way, I have no data to confirm it.
| mhh__ wrote:
| The system MI6 used to communicate with Oleg Gordievsky was that,
| had he decided to escape, he would stand near a bread shop in
| Moscow carrying a Safeway's bag and an MI6 handler (who had never
| seen him before keep in mind) would walk past eating either a
| mars bar or a kit kat.
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(page generated 2020-08-08 23:00 UTC)