[HN Gopher] How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavi...
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How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model
Author : vitabenes
Score : 319 points
Date : 2020-08-11 13:57 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.deprocrastination.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.deprocrastination.co)
| leptoniscool wrote:
| Some libraries are clearly better than others, what we need is a
| better rating system to differentiate the good ones from the bad.
| komali2 wrote:
| The Trigger one really resonated with me. I've been desperately
| struggling with getting tasks done - I thought it was Motivation
| mostly (and a good deal of the issue is, quarantine is sucking my
| energy). But when I think back to all the times I was successful,
| it was the presence of good triggers.
|
| For example, I did a coding bootcamp, and it was the most
| productive part of my life, because in my opinion of the powerful
| triggers. I show up, I do a coding challenge. Every day. That's
| how it worked. Then at 9:30 or whatever there's a lecture. I go
| to it and I take notes. Then there's a pair programming
| excercise... etc. All I had to do was plug myself into the
| schedule, and the motivation and ability basically came for free.
| It was a sort of freedom - sorry brain, we don't really have a
| say in this, gotta follow the schedule.
|
| Recently I've been struggling to work out as frequently as I did
| when I was working. Before, I'd bicycle to the gym, and then go
| from there to the office. Obviously right now that wasn't
| happening - but functionally I had _more_ time to work out now. I
| have _more_ freedom, so why am I working out less? Then I talked
| to a therapist about depression etc, and she said "well before
| we can do anything else, you need to start working out again. 30
| mins cardio a day, elevated heart rate and sweating." Suddenly it
| was easy. Suddenly it was like Freedom again. Sorry brain, we
| gotta just run, doctor's orders.
|
| Interestingly, for the first time in my life (big weightlifter,
| never a big cardio guy), I could do a 30 minute run without
| stopping. Sure, a pace of 11.5 minute mile, but before I couldn't
| even do 20 minutes without interspersing walking (about 12.5 or
| 13 min mile for a 2 mile run). But day 1 after doctor's orders, I
| just did it? It's completely fascinating. I obviously always had
| the ability, the restriction was entirely mental.
|
| So I really like how this author put the Trigger into words. It
| reflects my own personal experience.
| vitabenes wrote:
| Happy to articulate it for you!
|
| Without a trigger (also called a prompt), there is no behavior.
| We need someone (ourselves, others) or something (alarm,
| calendar) to take action.
| ctur wrote:
| This post just seems to be to draw semi-sensational attention to
| a self-help book. The site isn't generally referencing primary
| sources or otherwise giving signals of why it should be trusted.
| It also doesn't identify the authors.
|
| It's hard to take the site seriously when it equates gaming to
| being an alcoholic (while later in the same post backpedaling
| it): https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/should-i-quit-video-
| ga...
| dsubburam wrote:
| I find concepts like "procastination" problematic, including
| associated ones in the comments like "resolve", "discipline", and
| separately, "weak will".
|
| Take the case of "resolving" to watch just one episode of your
| favorite TV show after dinner. You then end up binge-watching
| three episodes. Why is this a case of "weak will" when it is
| simpler to explain it as a change of mind? After all, there is
| "new data" post the first episode; maybe an increased curiosity
| into what happens next, or still feeling wide awake.
|
| The idea of "free will" is well motivated. I am not so sure about
| "weak will" etc.
|
| Is there some other way to characterize the applicable cases?
| pkphilip wrote:
| Thank you. Will read this later.
| vitabenes wrote:
| Not sure if this is a classic procrastination joke or a
| promise, but either way, please do :)
| pkphilip wrote:
| :) yes
| stakkur wrote:
| I generally disagree with these kinds of models. Not because
| motivation, triggers, etc. aren't real things, but because they
| couch the problem as being either outside of us, or quasi-genetic
| (ADHD, etc.), instead of a choice that we make and own.
|
| Taking action has varying degrees of difficulty for every person.
| The factors are numerous. But in history, in life, in every
| scenario I've _ever_ read or studied or watched, there 's only
| one factor that matters: regardless of conditions, health,
| limitations, weather, whatever-- _the person made a decision and
| took action, over and over_. In my experience, it 's as boring as
| that. No mental hack, no shortcut--decision and action.
|
| Sure, you can work on 'clearing obstacles' to getting things done
| --mental models, physical problems, whatever--but you don't wait
| for this to be 'solved'. You have to act. And do it again until
| you're done.
| RobertoG wrote:
| "[..] the person made a decision and took action"
|
| Is not that a very low information content theory?
|
| I mean, is not all this discussion about why somebody would
| choose not to take an action that it's beneficial for them if
| they know it is beneficial? That's the real question.
|
| It's like this people that say that everybody can choose to be
| a millionaire. OK, but in that case, why so many people choose
| not to be a millionaire? Or why millionaires don't choose to be
| billionaires?
|
| It seems to me that to answer "because they choose" is just
| wasting ink and explain nothing.
| lucasmullens wrote:
| So your solution to procrastination is to just take action?
|
| I've got ADHD, and sometimes I feel like telling ADHD people to
| "just do it" is like telling a depressed person to "just be
| happy". It might work great for you, but for many that just
| doesn't work.
|
| I get your point, and sometimes I can psych myself up enough to
| do something with the "just do it" mentality, but sometimes
| that doesn't work, and articles like this can help me
| understand why and how to fix it.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| >the person made a decision and took action, over and over.
|
| This is the precursor to successes. It's also the precursor to
| failures. In my experience, considering success factors in a
| vacuum leads to skewed conclusions.
|
| There's an assumption that "meaningful rewards can be reliably
| expected to follow worthwhile efforts". That isn't universally
| true at all. You could append "in cases where efforts aren't
| negated by uncontrollable forces" to make it truthier.
|
| To be helpful to more than a minority, advice-givers ought to
| be able to answer: "X has been done as prescribed, above and
| beyond even. Y isn't happening. Now what?"
| Funes- wrote:
| I agree. What anyone needs to keep procrastination at bay is
| strong enough resolve. It's the only thing that's ever helped
| me take action.
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| Do you never find yourself doing things that after you've
| done it, you realise you shouldn't have?
|
| I find procrastination is sometimes a sign that my
| subconscious has realised i'd be better delegating or
| rejecting something rather than doing it BUT my consciousness
| hasn't realised that yet.
|
| Resolve is my last choice for things i'm procrastinating. It
| comes after questions like: maybe i really do want to do this
| and i just haven't considered why
| vitabenes wrote:
| We often say to our clients that procrastination is a
| teacher, an indicator.
|
| What does it indicate? Could be:
|
| * you don't like a type of work * you don't have sufficient
| skills to match the task * it's not important enough for
| you * you don't believe you can do it ...
|
| We teach them to ask themselves: why am I procrastinating?
|
| Resolve often isn't the issue.
| Funes- wrote:
| You left one of the more obvious reasons, in my opinion:
| you are avoiding responsibilities and hard work because
| it's easier and safer--in the short term--to fuck around
| and slack off all day.
| vitabenes wrote:
| That wasn't an all-inclusive list, but you're right,
| that's a big reason.
| Funes- wrote:
| No problem. I was writing from my own experience, as
| well, so that's the first reason I immediately thought
| of.
| DecayingOrganic wrote:
| It's but an apparent fact that we do not have full control over
| our actions. Just think of the popular game Sims, how you can
| control your sim to do whatever you want it to do.
|
| Now compare that to your own experiences of attempting to
| control hunks of flesh on disintegrating bones.
|
| Thus any simplification in the form of "just do it, it's your
| choice" motto fails to account for these very real biological
| constraints.
| stakkur wrote:
| I disagree, and that's a common reply. Making decisions and
| taking action are not the same as 'attempting to control'
| anything. And the idea here is obviously not 'limitations are
| not real', the idea is 'you make the decision you can and you
| take the best action you can'.
|
| Example: you want to run a mile, but you have a foot
| deformity that makes it extremely difficult. That's fine.
| Decide to stand up. Now, decide to walk around the block.
| Can't do that? That's fine. Decide to stand up. Now, walk to
| the curb and back. Do it three times a day. Can't do that?
| That's fine. Stand up. Repeat.
|
| Do you understand? Fundamentally, you will _always_ have the
| ability to choose, even if that 's no more than choosing how
| to respond to the limits you're under. You _always_ have the
| ability to take action, even if that 's no more than how you
| think.
| DecayingOrganic wrote:
| You literally explained Fogg Behavior Model with your
| example. Yet, you stated in your original comment that you
| do not "generally" agree with these models. Have you even
| read about FBM before disagreeing with it?
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Added to the reading list for later.
| sudhirkhanger wrote:
| I can develop habits by working on them a piece by piece. But
| even after having developed the habit in 3-4 months I usually end
| up dropping them. One such habit is exercising. I can't figure
| out what might possibly be wrong.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Some time back, I read all I could on procrastination, and
| watched dozens of videos on it, and by far the best thing I found
| on it was this video by Tim Pychyl: [1]
|
| It focuses particularly on procrastination in graduate school,
| but is widely applicable elsewhere.
|
| One of the key insights that Pychyl, a psychologist who studies
| procrastination, had is that procrastination is not (as is
| commonly believed) a time management problem but a problem with
| managing negative emotions.
|
| He has lots of really useful, practical tips for overcoming
| procrastination in the video, which I highly recommend.
|
| [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhFQA998WiA
| reidjs wrote:
| Thanks for posting this video, I found it really helpful. For
| people who don't have the time to watch this is a strategy I
| learned from it that I might try out with my TODOS:
|
| "In situation X I will do behavior Y to achieve subgoal Z"
|
| His example was
|
| "When this workshop ends today, I'm going straight to the
| library to read 4 pages of that paper that I'm struggling to
| read to achieve the subgoal of finishing this paragraph in my
| thesis"
|
| The idea is you don't have to think about some vague topic. You
| just go on autopilot like, oh the workshop is over now I have
| to do this thing, therefore you're more likely to do it.
| DelightOne wrote:
| If you don't have the steps to achieve X and you can't come
| up with the steps on the fly (or the steps you know do not
| work) then you will not be able to do X when you want to.
| reidjs wrote:
| In my understanding X is a situation not a goal to achieve.
| So it can be as simple as 'Today at 5pm' or 'I am at a bar
| craving a cigarette'
| jdc wrote:
| _[...] procrastination is not (as is commonly believed) a time
| management problem but a problem with managing negative
| emotions._
|
| Could there not be a catch 22 here where the negative emotions
| causing procrastination are in turn caused by the accumulating
| mess that said vice so often causes?
| Ma8ee wrote:
| I would call that a vicious circle, not a catch 22, but the
| mechanism you describe is real.
| vitabenes wrote:
| Yes, Pychil's work is incorporated in our materials.
|
| This is the recipe for procrastination (according to us):
|
| 1. Think about a task - "I have to do _____."
|
| 2. Have an automatic negative reaction 2a.
| Negative thoughts - "I hate doing this,"... 2b
| Negative feelings - Feeling stressed, afraid,...
|
| 3. Procrastinate - Do something else to feel better.
|
| Procrastination is all about escaping negative emotions.
|
| Something makes you feel bad, you do something else to feel
| better.
|
| Feeling better (reduced discomfort) is the short-term reward
| engaging in procrastination.
|
| That's why procrastination can become addictive and automatic)
| epicureanideal wrote:
| I still think this is too limited. Analogous to how Keynes
| said classical / Ricardian economics discussed distribution
| of goods given a fixed level of production, the linked
| article doesn't consider that the maximum productive output
| on any given day is not the same, even when the 3 variables
| considered are maximized.
|
| "Behavior" here seems to be a boolean, "why we take action or
| not take action at any given moment", but I think many people
| who ask how to be more motivated or productive are asking
| about total output, not just about the ability to begin a
| task. They might be able to sit down at their desk and start
| working, for example, but not be able to continue long even
| after doing all the tricks.
|
| In my experience, there is some sort of "mental energy
| reserve", and as that is exhausted it becomes increasingly
| difficult or maybe impossible to do any further productive
| work. If you are doing a strength training workout in the
| gym, no amount of "motivation" is going to let you continue
| lifting heavy weight indefinitely. I haven't seen much
| research to quantify that "mental energy reserve" or
| quantitatively measure how different tasks exhaust it.
|
| There also seems to be some task-related inertia.
| altvali wrote:
| I remember reading a study about the mental energy reserve
| that you speak of, or concentration, proving we have a
| limited amount, but the people who were informed of this
| fact were giving up sooner than those who didn't.
| joekim wrote:
| Well it is a lot more complicated. There is no "mental
| energy reserve", but we do get energized by norepinephrine
| in the brain and once it becomes saturated it it loses its
| effect.
|
| A simple technique to reset it is to activate the "sigh
| reflex". You just breathe in twice at a normal pace and
| then slowly exhale through the mouth.
|
| Another more powerful reset is to do yoga nidra for 10-20
| minutes. Yoga nidra, once you figure it out, will actually
| deactivate the prefrontal cortex and simulate sleep. Which
| has a huge boost for your cognitive abilities.
|
| Both of these techniques will increase serotonin and
| dopamine in the brain which will decrease norepinephrine.
| Once norepinephrine is no longer saturated you can become
| energized by it again.
|
| For example, imagine a football team winning the super
| bowl. They've been pushing 110%. Suddenly, they're jubilant
| and jumping all over the place. The dopamine and serotonin
| pushes out the norepinephrine allowing to return and become
| effective again.
| epicureanideal wrote:
| I'll definitely try this, but do you happen to have any
| links about this?
|
| And yes, I realize "mental energy reserve" isn't a
| scientific term, it's just a term I'm using for lack of
| something better to label something I experience.
|
| Re: the football team though, no matter how energized
| they are, that team will not be able to lift more than
| their 1RM (1 rep max), they won't be able to lift their
| 10RM (10 rep max) more than 10 times (maybe a few more on
| a good day). Eventually there are physical limits to
| their ability. Similarly if that team had not slept for
| 48 hours, or had done non-stop math problems for 18 hours
| and was asked to continue doing them.
| joekim wrote:
| > Re: the football team though, no matter how energized
| they are, that team will not be able to lift more than
| their 1RM (1 rep max), they won't be able to lift their
| 10RM (10 rep max) more than 10 times (maybe a few more on
| a good day). Eventually there are physical limits to
| their ability. Similarly if that team had not slept for
| 48 hours, or had done non-stop math problems for 18 hours
| and was asked to continue doing them.
|
| I want to challenge your thought experiment. Consider
| Navy Seal training. Pushing through via sheer force of
| will isn't possible. There needs to be a cycling and
| restorative process that enables above and beyond grit.
|
| Clip of Prof Huberman on "quitting behavior" such as
| quitting a long bout of work. (Note: Noradrenaline is
| norepinephrine. It's a weird historical thing where two
| teams discovered it and nobody agreed on the real name)
|
| https://podclips.com/ct/y4Ucji
|
| Good Joe Rogan with Huberman.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLJowTOkZVo
| epicureanideal wrote:
| "Pushing through via sheer force of will isn't possible."
|
| That's exactly what I'm saying. I'll check out the link.
| joekim wrote:
| > "Pushing through via sheer force of will isn't
| possible." > That's exactly what I'm saying. I'll check
| out the link.
|
| What I'm saying is that you can't push your way through
| Navy Seal training by trying harder. But you can
| significantly increase your output and down regulate the
| process around "quitting" by using other techniques that
| will trigger the norepinephrine reset.
| james_s_tayler wrote:
| Sounds like a regurgitation of the interview of Dr Andrew
| Huberman on Rich Will's podcast. Look it up on YouTube.
| _tom_ wrote:
| While "mental energy reserve" is not a standard term,
| "decision fatigue" is, and is basically the same idea.
| epicureanideal wrote:
| Yes, I mean it in a similar way to the idea of "decision
| fatigue", but more broadly about all kinds of cognitive
| tasks.
| infogulch wrote:
| Eh, "mental energy reserve" seems to be used like "ego
| depletion" which doesn't have a great pedigree iirc.
| joekim wrote:
| Studies by Dweck, famous for Growth Mindset, and others
| point to "ego depletion" simply being a reflection of
| people's beliefs (My willpower is limited) as opposed to
| an actual resource that gets depleted.
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/46579000_Ego_Dep
| let...
|
| https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/01/29/another-blow-for-
| ego-de...
| al_ak wrote:
| I really do hope your page helps some people with their
| procrastination issues. But I can't help feel like your whole
| approach suffers from engineers disease. But maybe that's
| what will resonate with some folks.
|
| A compassionate therapist can also do wonders for
| procrastination.
| vitabenes wrote:
| Yeah, I know what you're saying. This is more of a clinical
| disection of procrastination.
|
| Many more of our blog posts and book chapters are more
| about the emotional side of things. Plus, we do coach
| people 1-on-1 in our program.
| al_ak wrote:
| That sounds pretty great actually. I just know what for
| me, none of this really "clicked" until I had someone to
| work through these emotions with
| joekim wrote:
| Most procrastination is emotional management, a sort of
| self-medicating from stress. Having a skilled therapist
| working through it with you sounds fantastic.
|
| I really like a technique called the "Sedona Method" for
| releasing difficult emotions.
| sirmarksalot wrote:
| Thanks for this. I found the article to be really naive in a
| Dale Carnegie kind of way, that probably appeals to someone in
| their mid-20s trying to reinvent themselves, but is actually a
| psychological dead end. For me, procrastination has definitely
| fit the profile of pain avoidance rather than a lack of any of
| those three elements the article focuses on.
| Voliokis wrote:
| The article is entirely based on Fogg's behavior model. Your
| criticism isn't really addressing the article, it's
| addressing the model used. As for pain avoidance, that seems
| to be a part of the factor Motivation, which is divided into
| the sub-factors Sensation, Anticipation and Social Cohesion.
| I've found a number of sites explaining the model and they
| all have something like this to say about Sensation:
|
| > Searching to experience pleasure or avoiding pain. These
| strong motivators are thought to be a primitive and immediate
| response to information.
|
| I can't find an official source for it, so I have to assume
| it's in Fogg's book. But it seems pain avoidance is something
| that _is_ addressed by the model.
|
| Some relevant links:
|
| https://blog.crobox.com/article/fogg-behavior-model
|
| https://www.buzzstream.com/blog/the-psychology-of-
| behavior-c...
|
| https://lifehacker.com/how-to-stop-procrastinating-with-
| beha...
|
| https://mariashriver.com/stanford-researcher-bj-fogg-on-
| the-...
|
| https://lifehacker.com/how-to-stop-procrastinating-with-
| beha...
|
| As for Fogg, he seems to be a research associate at Stanford
| and founded the Behavior Design Lab. How much weight that
| carries, no idea.
|
| https://behaviordesign.stanford.edu/
|
| edit: I think I found the paper where FBM is from
|
| http://captology.stanford.edu/wp-
| content/uploads/2010/11/Beh... (found through
| https://behaviordesign.stanford.edu/fogg-behavior-model)
| tonystubblebine wrote:
| Yes, Tim is so good. He also wrote a great Medium article for
| one of our publications there. Here the link that'll bypass the
| paywall: https://medium.com/better-humans/how-to-use-
| psychology-to-so...
| flir wrote:
| > Some time back, I read all I could on procrastination, and
| watched dozens of videos on it
|
| Honestly thought you were setting us up for a punchline, there.
| PTOB wrote:
| Seriously, did he eventually get back to work or what???
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| oxfordmale wrote:
| I will adopt the Fogg behaviour..... tomorrow.
| vitabenes wrote:
| What about a tiny step today?
| DecayingOrganic wrote:
| You can read the paper itself [0]. It was originally introduced
| as a behavior model for persuasive design, later on has become
| quite popular in self-help field.
|
| To summarize, it states:
|
| "The FBM asserts that for a person to perform a target behavior,
| he or she must (1) be sufficiently motivated, (2) have the
| ability to perform the behavior, and (3) be triggered to perform
| the behavior."
|
| The author then makes the case that since any attempts to modify
| the motivation level of an agent is hard and often fails, one can
| focus on modifying the ability of a task, thus making it easier
| for the agent to perform.
|
| Let's say you want to start flossing your teeth, following the
| FBM, you can modify the required ability to perform the task by
| saying "I only need to floss one tooth." By doing so, you
| compensate for your low motivation and increase the likelihood of
| doing it.
|
| [0]: https://captology.stanford.edu/wp-
| content/uploads/2010/11/Be...
| dboreham wrote:
| You have to select a random different tooth every day though.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Or just repeat the small task 26 times
| altonzheng wrote:
| I'd add removing inner resistance, which could be expanded under
| motivation in the formula. Increasing motivation isn't simply an
| additive process -- you can introspect on the things limiting
| your motivation, eg. fear of failure, and address them. After
| that, you have more cognitive space, and a difficult task might
| suddenly seem much more tractable. It's about letting go of the
| thoughts/emotions holding you back. In my experience, tackling
| this has been most rewarding, not to say the practices in the
| article don't help.
| vitabenes wrote:
| True.
|
| I think that could fall under "improving ability" in the Fogg
| model.
| [deleted]
| georgespencer wrote:
| It's clearly not the case for everyone, but I struggled for an
| extended period of time with a few things in my personal and
| professional life:
|
| 1. Remarkable focus in topics which interest me and remarkable
| lack of focus in topics which do not.
|
| 2. Leaving "must do" tasks in areas of little interest until the
| very last moment, resulting in a predictable lack of excellence
| in execution.
|
| 3. Periodic deep dives into topics which go beyond the
| aforementioned "areas of interest".
|
| 4. Driven by a motor in meetings: itching to get up and walk
| around as we talk, feeling more comfortable with any kind of low
| level motor action happening concurrently to my thinking and
| speaking. Also led to me leaping to the end of a person's
| sentence and others experiencing me as highly impatient /
| excitable at times.
|
| 5. The need to have a TV show or other media playing as I fall
| asleep. Ideally something I've seen before and which is enjoyable
| but not too engrossing. Almost like one of the cores in my
| processor couldn't be idle -- it actually made it hard to sleep.
| (Conversely I always fell asleep watching films with my partner.)
|
| 6. Various odd elements of disorganisation -- never at work but
| eg. losing my keys and documents.
|
| If you're reading this and hearing elements of your own
| experience, and in particular if this is familiar to you from
| childhood ("Why can't you apply yourself to X like you do Y?!")
| then I would encourage you to speak to a serious psychiatrist
| about the possibility that you have ADHD.
|
| Not everyone has it and I accept that many are probably
| misdiagnosed with it. My experience of clicking every link on HN
| with hacks for focusing and not procrastinating was actually a
| very sad one and I didn't realise how profoundly it had affected
| me until I sat in the office of a psychiatrist and he rattled off
| a range of specific experiences he wagered I had had during my
| life.
|
| It's been a remarkable process for me of feeling emotional relief
| as well as receiving medication which improves my life.
|
| Again if you're looking for a productivity hack you do not need
| to consider that you have any sort of chemical disregulation, but
| I did not consider the possibility of a medical condition and
| found myself often in rabbit holes of productivity hacks feeling
| deeply unproductive.
| carabiner wrote:
| With #1, someone told me 90% of K12 education is supposed to
| help you get over this. School is supposed to train you to
| focus on and produce work on subjects that you have zero
| interest in. I was pretty good at that before, now I think I'm
| just burnt out.
| non-entity wrote:
| Heh, didnt work for me. I just failed the classes I didn't
| give a damn about.
| georgespencer wrote:
| I think that's probably right in neurotypical folks! Maybe I
| wasn't clear, but I exhibit what people characterise to me as
| a _remarkable_ ability to focus and _remarkable_ ability to
| not focus. Huge deviations from the mean in both directions!
|
| The other thing to remember is that whilst ADHD is likely
| overdiagnosed, that doesn't mean that many kids who have it
| will simply not respond to K12 education as an environment
| which conditions them. This is not something which can be
| corrected with hard work and thought, although people who do
| not experience ADHD often (understandably) say things like
| "just sit still!" or "don't interrupt people it's rude!". The
| crux of ADHD is that it's a neurodevelopmental disorder and a
| disregulation of dopamine and chemicals designed to help
| regulate executive function, focus, anxiety, etc. It is
| generally not possible to see significant results with
| therapy, although there is some limited evidence that early
| intervention through medication has long-lasting effects in
| children who are able to move off medication in the medium
| term.
| non-entity wrote:
| Ok serious question: Every one of these points is very
| applicable to me, especially 1,2 and 3.
|
| I haven't been to a doctor in years outside occasional
| emergency trips. How do you bring this up without seriously. I
| don't want to come off as the guy who compulsively self
| diagnoses based off what they read on the internet.
| georgespencer wrote:
| Shoot me an email if you wanna chat about my experience in
| more detail! Email address in profile :)
| stevewodil wrote:
| Do you have a PCP? You just say that you want to get referred
| to someone to get tested for ADHD because of x, y, and z and
| you think a diagnosis would help you
| neutronicus wrote:
| If you are like 30 and employed they don't dick you around
| about ADHD the way they do with college students
| tikhonj wrote:
| I was in a similar position. I did a bunch of reading on
| ADHD, convinced myself that I probably had it then I found a
| clinical psychologist who specialized in ADHD and reached out
| for an initial appointment. Apparently this is a pretty
| common story for people with ADHD who weren't diagnosed as
| children, so a specialist won't be particularly surprised by
| it.
|
| The initial appointment is probably going to be an in-depth
| interview with the specialist, coupled with filling out some
| self-assessments and, possibly, getting somebody who knows
| you well to fill out an assessment as well. (Apparently
| people with ADHD usually drastically _underestimate_ their
| own symptoms, which is why a third-party perspective is
| important.)
|
| After I got diagnosed, the specialist gave me useful advice,
| learning materials and resources, including recommendations
| for psychiatrists to reach out to for treatment. This is
| pretty important because a _combination_ of psychiatric
| treatment _with_ learning new skills, coaching... works
| better than only doing one or the other.
|
| If you can afford it or it works well with your insurance, I
| would highly recommend reaching out to a specialist instead
| of (or in addition to) talking to a normal doctor.
| koreth1 wrote:
| > Apparently this is a pretty common story for people with
| ADHD who weren't diagnosed as children, so a specialist
| won't be particularly surprised by it.
|
| This is very true. And it's not even just due to lack of
| access to mental health care as a child: everyone over a
| certain age will have grown up before "ADHD" was a
| recognized disorder, and thus couldn't have been diagnosed
| with it no matter what their symptoms were.
| georgespencer wrote:
| > this is a pretty common story for people with ADHD who
| weren't diagnosed as children
|
| This was an extremely meaningful datapoint for me in
| feeling "seen". One of the steps was to ask my mother to
| fill in a survey recalling how she experienced me as a
| child.
|
| When I told my mother it was for ADHD diagnosis she
| laughed, and said, "You didn't have ADHD. You just liked to
| run around. In my experience 10% of kids are just _wired
| that way_. "
|
| Cue the psychiatrist telling me that ADHD prevalence is now
| thought to be around around 10%.
|
| A good psychiatrist will not diagnose you with ADHD unless
| you have it, and they will not sit on the fence and say
| "maybe" if they believe you have it. Mine was emphatic with
| me.
|
| > Apparently people with ADHD usually drastically
| underestimate their own symptoms, which is why a third-
| party perspective is important
|
| Absolutely! The way people experienced me was _totally_
| different to the way I thought that they did.
| robmerki wrote:
| There's nothing wrong with using self-diagnosis as a way to
| inform a professional inquiry. In my unqualified opinion, you
| probably have ADHD.
| anon9001 wrote:
| No problem, serious answer:
|
| This is the DSMV criteria:
| https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/diagnosis.html
|
| Doctors are typically screening with a quiz that looks
| something like this: https://psychcentral.com/quizzes/adhd-
| quiz/
|
| It's perfectly reasonable to say "I think I may have ADHD
| based on what I've read online, my symptoms match and people
| who know me have suggested I try adderall".
|
| Some doctors are fine with letting everyone have stimulants,
| because they're pretty harmless unless you're really binging
| on them, and they won't give you enough to do that for very
| long.
|
| Other doctors would prefer to put you on an SSRI or SNRI or
| wellbutrin or some other "non-addictive" medication (which
| ironically are more addictive, dangerous, and less
| effective), so avoid those IMO. You may have to shop around a
| bit, but your primary care doctor technically can write the
| prescription, but some prefer not to and you might need to
| find a specialist.
|
| Contraindications for stimulants are if the patient has a
| history of heart conditions, complains about racing heart
| rate, excessive sweating, trouble sleeping, trouble eating,
| etc.
|
| You generally want to start with a low dose of "instant
| release" as opposed to "extended release" pills, so you can
| have more fine grained control over the dose. IR pills can be
| broken in half, XR cannot. Some doctors are more nervous
| about IR than XR because they think it has more abuse
| potential (not true, but it's a common belief).
|
| With all that said, stimulants _will_ fix the problems OP
| described, but don 't mistake that for a pleasant experience.
| The truth is that amphetamines are extremely mentally
| exhausting, and if you don't take good care of yourself
| (planning proper meals, staying hydrated, resting at
| appropriate times, not taking more pills when you shouldn't),
| you can quickly spiral out of control. It's hard to explain
| to someone that doesn't do drugs, but stimulants can leave
| you feeling like a shell of yourself, and it's really
| disconcerting. It's sort of like being over-tired where
| you're awake but your judgment is clearly impaired and you
| don't feel like "you". If you stay on them long enough,
| you'll start to feel like a zombie just going through the
| motions (successfully, mind you), but without identity. I
| make sure to take weekends off to preserve their efficacy for
| the work week and to make sure I don't become too dependent.
|
| I'd 100% recommend having stimulants in your toolkit, and
| chances are you're already supplementing with worse
| stimulants (like mountains of coffee or soda), so do give
| them a try, but be careful.
| georgespencer wrote:
| This answer chimes the most with my experience.
| Particularly:
|
| > It's perfectly reasonable to say "I think I may have ADHD
| based on what I've read online, my symptoms match and
| people who know me have suggested I try adderall".
|
| Spot on! (Except for suggesting a prescription: the doctor
| will be able to establish whether, for example, a prodrug
| like lisdexamfetamine is better than adderall, or
| methylphenidate might be a safer starting point (I believe
| it's been studied for longer).)
|
| But yeah: there is zero shame in going to a doctor and
| stating that you are experiencing symptoms which you
| recently learned to be consistent with ADHD, and would like
| a professional opinion on the severity and potential
| treatment options. Reading the traits commonly associated
| with ADHD, you'd almost _expect_ someone to have done a
| great deal of research about the topic.
|
| > It's hard to explain to someone that doesn't do drugs,
| but stimulants can leave you feeling like a shell of
| yourself
|
| I've found (40mg lisdexamfetamine, but also previously had
| IR/XR Adderall, 2x titrations of Concerta, and an abortive
| attempt at Medikinet which is a different XR timed release
| formulation of methylphenidate as I understand it) that
| this is true to an extent. I don't dose on the weekends and
| have found that Mondays are a blur. It's 4pm before I know
| it and I'm wired and working on spreadsheets well into the
| night.
|
| The closest thing I can express to how I know the drug is
| effective is that there is almost a directional cone of
| focus which I need to very consciously redirect to a new
| area of focus. If someone comes to speak to me I'm able to
| context switch, but moving from one task to another can
| require effort.
|
| When I didn't eat enough or appear to have a faster
| metabolisation of the drugs than normal, I can have a
| feeling of focus for focus's sake: I'm blind to what's
| going on around me and uncommunicative.
|
| For me, however, in the main the medication _has_ been a
| pleasant experience. It 's helped me to regulate my moods
| and dark sides -- particularly under stress. This will not
| be the case for everyone, and a good doctor will be up
| front about the fact that your body will react differently
| to different drugs. They'll have a preferred starting point
| for treatment which they know well, but they will not be
| afraid to switch it up in order to find you a solution
| which works well.
|
| BTW I'm really glad that you shared in as much detail as
| you did given the empathy I feel for OP's potential need to
| battle ADHD symptoms _without treatment_ in order to even
| _get_ to treatment. It 's really kind of you and I'm glad
| there are so many people on HN who have been through
| similar experiences to me. After experiencing 30-odd years
| of thinking I was deficient in some way, feeling the
| resonance of other people's similar experiences has been a
| huge boon for me. So thanks.
| blaser-waffle wrote:
| > I'd 100% recommend having stimulants in your toolkit, and
| chances are you're already supplementing with worse
| stimulants (like mountains of coffee or soda), so do give
| them a try, but be careful.
|
| I'll second this. I've got an old friend and former
| coworker who clearly has serious ADHD and self medicates
| with tons of coffee/soda/cigarettes. He's killing himself
| and he knows it, but hates doctors and has a negative view
| of shrinks.
|
| Anec-data: I cut out carbs and only eat during certain
| windows and that has done wonders for focus and stick-to-
| itiveness. Coffee and alcohol hit me extra hard, and I've
| cut back on them.
| throwaway234101 wrote:
| > I've got an old friend and former coworker who clearly
| has serious ADHD and self medicates with tons of
| coffee/soda/cigarettes. He's killing himself and he knows
| it, but hates doctors and has a negative view of shrinks.
|
| This describes me to a T. I will not take amphetamines of
| any kind, so what's the point?
|
| > Anec-data: I cut out carbs and only eat during certain
| windows and that has done wonders for focus and stick-to-
| itiveness. Coffee and alcohol hit me extra hard, and I've
| cut back on them.
|
| I've heard other people say this. I really need to try
| it.
| hanniabu wrote:
| > IR pills can be broken in half, XR cannot
|
| You can always take the XR pill apart and split it into
| blank capsules. Or you can just dump a little out and take
| it without the capsule.
| georgespencer wrote:
| I think this depends on the actual formulation of the
| drug, right?
|
| For example two of the titrations of Concerta (XR
| methylphenidate) which I have experienced first-hand are
| a hard candy-like tablet, and the pharmacokinetic result
| is that you receive 25% of the dose within a couple of
| hours, and then over the course of the rest of the day
| the remaining 75% hits your bloodstream.
|
| But I now take an XR lisdexamfetamine which looks like it
| would be possible to split into smaller doses, but it's a
| prodrug so it's a totally different experience.
|
| I know it's a luxury some folks can't afford, but there
| really are a great range of optimised formulations of the
| treatments for ADHD out there, and rather than guessing
| yourself, it'll be better to have an honest conversation
| with your doctor about the ability to mix XR/IR in a way
| that works for you.
| anon9001 wrote:
| This is correct. Concerta is interesting because it's a
| laser-drilled time release. Vyvanse is interesting
| because it's a prodrug of amphetamine that releases
| chemically over time.
| laurex wrote:
| Go to a psychiatrist. Report your symptoms. They will give
| you a diagnostic and make the call. As long as you go in
| without stating your suspected diagnosis, you're not
| "diagnosing."
| czbond wrote:
| Why see a psychiatrist? Are those really things to 'fix' on the
| whole - given the upsides?
|
| I'm incredibly energetic. I can't sit down for long - so I just
| stand in meetings. TV is a waste of time, so is social small
| talk, I do what I care about (and it rewarded me well). I've
| just felt like the speed, risk tolerance, freedom it provides
| me, and intuition make a powerful combination.
|
| I'd say the ADHD (if it is) makes you unique. All the world
| needs is more conformists... [I may be conflating ADHD with my
| incredibly independent personality]
| czbond wrote:
| To expand - why not use it to your advantage? Consultants for
| larger, competitive companies do well w/ ADHD. Leaders do
| well. Founders do well (if they can stay focused on the
| opportunity).
|
| I have a CompSci degree, and loved doing algorithms, etc -
| but can't be bothered to sit behind an IDE for hours. So what
| - enough of people can do that well. I've found leadership to
| be the best use of skillsets where these 'symptoms' appear.
| georgespencer wrote:
| I think this is a really interesting, nuanced point. It's
| one I talked to my doctor about because it was a concern I
| felt (and feel). Thanks for sharing it here! HN is usually
| a good space for contrarian opinions, but even so this sort
| of thing might get shot down a good percentage of the time.
|
| The way I would express it is: _ADHD medication curbs the
| downside of ADHD, but many people report and experience
| significant upsides to their condition too. The traditional
| view of ADHD medication is also that it turns children into
| "zombies". Do I run the risk of losing my 'edge' as a
| person?_
|
| I'm not a scientist, and I'm not a doctor. With that said,
| here are my notes from my doctor when we discussed this:
| 1. I feel that oftentimes negative and positive personality
| traits in people go hand in hand, outside of ADHD. For
| example, the calm, methodical, detail-oriented people who
| make excellent assimilators and "deliverers" in startups
| are often a necessity to building something incredible, but
| can also be the very *worst* people to have around you when
| you're trying to "yes and" about fragile ideas, because
| they live relentlessly in the real world. Do the traits I
| exhibit in my ADHD also make me a more effective leader? Do
| I simply not understand the upsides because they exhibit as
| personality traits? 2. Dr. X: There is little in
| the way of conclusive evidence, but he believes that it's
| possible that ADHD medication can curb traits that are
| either perceived as positive or genuinely positive in ADHD
| patients. This is why a key assessment is the extent to
| which negative traits manifest themselves. If you have ADHD
| but do not suffer from life-deranging consequences in some
| material sense (executive function impaired to the point
| where your career, relationships, or emotional wellbeing
| are suffering), then it's often not necessary to take
| medication at all. 3. Dr. X: the common
| impression of ADHD medication -- and in particular Ritalin
| -- seems to be magnified by the fact that parents are in
| general deeply worried about their children and the sense
| that their personalities are altered in some way. In
| adults, the available treatments do not appear to have
| serious long term consequences for personality and
| cognitive function. So it's completely permissible to take
| XR/IR medication for ADHD on days when you especially need
| to focus, for example, and not worry about "missing" a day.
| Equally, if -- in consultation with your doctor during
| titration and your family and friends -- you feel that
| there is an untenable negative consequence of medicating,
| then you can of course stop. 4. Dr. X:
| Anecdotally, ADHD sufferers frequently both underestimate
| and ignore the consequences of the disorder in their lives.
| Sometimes it's necessary to have them tell stories about
| areas of their relationships and personal lives which they
| find are surprising or hard which are unrelated to their
| ADHD, and very often doing so reveals that their ADHD
| manifests itself in ways which are wholly unsurprising but
| not visible to the patient. 5. Taking the time
| to find the right medication and dosage is vital. Diagnosis
| is step one, and after that it is very often months of
| tweaking, talking, and collaboration with the doctor to
| establish the right dosage level (strength), formulation
| (XR/IR, and within that e.g. prodrug is an XR which is a
| sort of "prequel" to the chemicals you need -- so it
| stimulates the body creating them rather than dumping the
| chemicals themselves into your system), and brand (e.g.
| Ritalin, Concerta, and Medikinet are all methylphenidate,
| but Concerta is commonly a 25/75 release, Ritalin is
| available in IR or XR although XR is less popular than
| Concerta XR, and Medikinet is a 50/50 timed release).
| Finding something which works for you takes time, and is
| not an easy feat.
|
| It's fantastic that you're not experiencing significant
| downsides to ADHD! I'm glad you were as clear as you were
| in your articulation of your concern, I worry that when
| some people express things like this they cause unnecessary
| worry in those who _are_ experiencing meaningful downsides
| which put them off seeking medication. The tradeoffs are
| different for everyone.
| Bedon292 wrote:
| Obviously you feel the medication is useful, but do you think
| just knowing vs the medication has any positive benefit? I have
| read dozens of articles online, and replies like yours and can
| always relate extremely well to all of the symptoms. Taken the
| online quizzes and all that. I am pretty much certain I have
| ADHD. And I have known for years. But, I have educated myself
| on it, understand how I work (or don't work) and just kinda
| roll with it. But I have been thinking about it more lately,
| and wonder if its really worth more steps and medication.
| georgespencer wrote:
| There is definitely a deep, abiding sense of relief and peace
| at the fact that a lot of things which caused me pain in the
| past now make sense.
|
| That doesn't help with the day-to-day of things, but it does
| contribute to an overall happiness which I do not think the
| medication alone would offer me.
| mmanfrin wrote:
| Hah, reading through that list I thought 'hey this is my ADHD',
| and sure enough that is where you went with it.
| elchief wrote:
| If you suffer ADHD, I strongly recommend reading Scattered
| Minds, by Gabor Mate. I found it enlightening
| georgespencer wrote:
| Thanks! I have a fortnight off coming up shortly and have
| added it to my queue. An area I spent a long time discussing
| in multiple consultations was the tension between genetic
| predisposition and environment.
|
| Interesting for a few reasons: firstly there's some limited
| evidence that early treatment with medication can have a
| permanent positive impact on the condition in children. Which
| to my pea sized brain is suggestive of the possibility that
| we have sufficient elasticity during our brain's formative
| years to consider this, sometimes, an illness not a
| condition.
|
| Secondly there is some evidence to suggest that other
| disregulations such as dyspraxia and dyslexia are linked to
| ADHD. A common question in diagnosis is about family history
| of those conditions.
|
| I was also concerned when my doctor and two psychiatrists
| told me that therapy was certainly an option but highly
| unlikely to be successful for me. It seems like this book may
| paint a different picture.
|
| Thanks for the recommendation! If you suffer from ADHD, do
| you mind sharing if the book changed your approach to
| treatment?
| elchief wrote:
| It didn't change my approach to treatment, no (I continue
| to take vyvanse)
|
| However, the description of behavior of people with ADHD,
| made me say "oh, shit, that's 100% me". So, it was nice to
| know that I am not alone. It's comforting to know that some
| of my weirdness is from ADHD, and not inherently "me"
| chemeng wrote:
| While Scattered Minds does a good job describing the
| "experience" of ADHD and will likely resonate with people
| who have the condition, a lot of its conclusions are not
| scientifically supported.
|
| ADHD is a nuerodevelopmental disorder, it has strong
| genetic components and the only strongly supported
| intervention that improves life outcome is stimulant
| medication. Unfortunately medication doesn't work or cannot
| be taken by all of those with the condition.
|
| That said, Scattered may help someone work through other
| common comorbidities of ADHD (depression, low self esteem,
| etc). It may shine light on the complex interactions
| between ADHD, the family and society in a way that's
| helpful for understanding ones own experience.
| jaybeeayyy wrote:
| Well, you've convinced me to go back to the doctor. I was on
| the cusp of taking one of the ADHD tests but my insurance
| couldn't tell me how much it would be and the doctor's office
| said they couldn't either. I was told it would be between $200
| and $900 and couldn't afford the $900 risk. I ended up being
| billed $200 just for the initial visit of course.
|
| But the longer I wait the more damage it's doing to my life.
| Out of your list I'd say 5/6 affect me, 5 being the odd one out
| as I can't sleep with anything but a fan on.
|
| I'll be making my appointment today...well, probably tomorrow
| now. Let's hope I don't procrastinate.
| georgespencer wrote:
| I'm glad you're doing that! Feel free to email me
| (mistergeorgespencer+HN@gmail.com) if it would be useful for
| you to hear more about my experience or for you to share some
| of what you're experiencing. I have an iCloud note with every
| shared symptom I see someone else describing on the web, and
| it's getting pretty huge -- and makes me super happy that
| other people have had the same experience.
|
| I put off the diagnosis process for a year and regret it, but
| don't consider that a pressure for you to do it. If you have
| ADHD, one of the things you can't really know (in my
| experience) is the feeling of a balanced ability to focus and
| be productive. Feeling compelled to seek a diagnosis is a big
| step.
|
| I had a lot of serious conversations with the doctor about
| the impact of medication, the causes of ADHD, potential
| neurotoxicity, neuronal elasticity, etc. before I committed
| to taking medication. Here if you want to talk!
| sosuke wrote:
| Yes, do it now, make appointment today. Stop everything else
| and do it. If you have a doctor that hems and haws about it
| find another doctor. I got my diagnosis and prescription
| without any formal test. I have stopped seeing my
| psychiatrist but once a year since my general practice doctor
| decided they could fill my prescriptions. The medicine, even
| the expensive stuff, has payment help programs. Like print
| out a PDF payment help program easy.
|
| If you want more pushing or personal story my email is in my
| profile. Best single thing I've done in my life to date.
| bdamm wrote:
| This is a nice read and a useful, practical model. Thank you!
| vitabenes wrote:
| Happy to help!
| njsubedi wrote:
| I have this constant feeling that some post on HN will motivate
| me more, or just teach me to be less of a procrastinator. That's
| the reason I check HN frequently, and click on these kinds of
| links. Then I see the post is too long, and scroll-skim it.
| Nothing really changes about procrastination; we don't do shit
| until some other shit is on fire.
| vitabenes wrote:
| Check out the browser extension on our site! That might help,
| if an article won't.
|
| I used to check Twitter 100-150 times a day, but with the use
| of the extension, I got it under 20 times. Try the Focus Zones
| feature. Try it, let me know if it works. I'll give you 3
| months of Pro features for free if you shoot me an email.
| marta_morena_25 wrote:
| Oh cool, so basically this is about finding a way to cheat your
| brain into doing things it doesn't want to do. Maybe a good
| approach would be to find something you actually like to do
| instead and reflect on your choices and priorities in life?
|
| It's amusing that you need a professor to tell you how to
| convince yourself that your life doesn't suck. A more natural
| approach might be to change what you are trying to do in the
| first place...
|
| Guess what, the brain was not made to earn money.
| untilHellbanned wrote:
| overly complicated.
|
| Nike Behavior model is easier: just do it.
| blaser-waffle wrote:
| Doctor: "don't be sad."
|
| Patient: "thanks I never thought of that. i am cured."
|
| ...said no one ever.
| corty wrote:
| Yes, every website returning "application error" is one less
| chance for procrastination. However, since it is rather hard
| convincing everyone to break their website for me, I'll continue
| using a browser extension to keep me from procrastinating. ;)
| vitabenes wrote:
| Working on that error. Sorry about that.
| Konohamaru wrote:
| tl;dr: someone who can pay for a coach, or a grad student to keep
| him company, etc... has only two obstacles to overcoming
| endeavors instead of three.
| SeanFerree wrote:
| Love this! My favorite is the Simple Timeline. Definitely a
| deadline helps me. Also keeping tasks simple and completing them
| step by step is better than taking on huge tasks all at once. If
| I feel overwhelmed my motivation declines.
| system2 wrote:
| There is nothing can stop procrastinating but only if we do
| things we love. I remember being passionate about little
| electronics projects when I was young, I would spend 10+ hours
| per day without getting bored. Now if In need to do anything I
| will find something to postpone or do it half assed while doing
| something else at the same time.
|
| Do something you love and wouldn't get bored of. Like gardening
| or something. Something simple. When there are more parts and
| added steps in the process (like a web app) you will eventually
| stop doing it because of the complexity.
| non-entity wrote:
| The problem is I spend 8+ hours a day doing something I don't
| care about and by the time I can work on the things I love I'm
| mentally exhausted and just sleep for hours.
| epicureanideal wrote:
| See my other comment in this thread. I think the model's lack
| of consideration for "mental exhaustion" means it's
| incomplete.
| aplusbi wrote:
| I have started subscribing to the believe that it is not about
| motivation, it's about discipline. There is only so much you can
| do to motivate yourself to do a tedious or onerous task. But if
| you have discipline, you don't need the motivation.
|
| I still struggle a lot with procrastination, but I find this
| reframing to be helpful.
| dtjohnnyb wrote:
| I think one issue with discipline is that there's a value
| judgement attached, so that when I procrastinate, I'm an
| undisciplined slob, I feel worse, more procrastination, spiral.
|
| As you said, having discipline reframed into triggers and
| motivation allows more objective reasoning. You do the task
| because you have a well created system of triggers that you
| follow regularly because you know the _why_ of what you're
| doing at a big picture level. If I procrastinate, it means my
| system or my why isn't working for me, and I need to
| reevaluate.
| owenshen24 wrote:
| Fogg has some good thoughts on positive behavior change. James
| Clear, who wrote Tiny Habits, is another good person in this
| space who writes reasonable stuff.
|
| Self-plug for an overview on research into the habit formation
| literature that I recently cleaned up. Covers many evidence-
| backed interventions (of varying quality) for habit formation and
| removal.
|
| https://mlu.red/52436366310.html
| robmerki wrote:
| Procrastination is the _intentional_ avoidance or delay of a
| task. I have ADHD and assumed I was procrastinating a lot. Nope.
| These type of models never worked for me.
| vitabenes wrote:
| Sorry, it will be up in a moment!
| sna1l wrote:
| For things that I don't have the motivation to do (things I
| procrastinate), my strategy is to start doing the smallest
| possible unit of that thing as I can.
|
| Recently I started meditating, something I've tried to get into,
| but never have. I downloaded this app Balance which encourages
| daily practice (reminders, 3,5,10 guided meditations, etc). I am
| still not "motivated" to do it, but I don't need to be because it
| is just part of my schedule.
|
| The reason I say this is that I feel like "building motivation"
| is kind of the wrong attitude. You won't like everything that you
| do (go to the gym, pay your bills, etc), but building a
| repeatable habit makes it so you don't need to feel motivated.
| This might be a nitpick, but the big change in thinking for me
| was around not having to be motivated to do something.
| vitabenes wrote:
| It's a good point. We do easy things even though we're not
| motivated.
|
| B J Fogg talks about motivation waves - motivation comes and
| goes like a wave. When you're riding high, Fogg recommends
| taking a hard action that will make future actions easier
| (register for a yoga class, go for a long run after months of
| not running).
|
| When motivation is low, take the easiest step possible.
|
| Over time, what we're familiar with (daily routines) become
| habitual and we don't need motivation.
| balfirevic wrote:
| > We do easy things even though we're not motivated.
|
| Ah, I see you are, at best, an amateur level procrastinator
| :)
| vitabenes wrote:
| I used to be a pro, but blocking out distractions (the
| easiest, most "fun" activity) helped me do more.
|
| I know you didn't ask for advice, but if I were to give you
| just 1 bit of it, it's to block distractions in the browser
| (or unplug wifi) and put your phone in another room.
|
| Then you'd get bored for a while, and then you'd take the
| easy work-related actions despite not being motivated.
| balfirevic wrote:
| > I know you didn't ask for advice
|
| No worries, I appreciate it anyway.
|
| > it's to block distractions in the browser (or unplug
| wifi) and put your phone in another room
|
| Good advice, agreed - few months ago I started using two
| separate Windows accounts where I block all distracting
| sites on one of them. It's not perfect but does help.
|
| I still find it a bit too easy to just switch accounts.
| What I'm going to try next is setting up limitations for
| certain times of day at router level.
|
| Funnily enough, phone is not a problem at all.
| oaao_ wrote:
| > For things that I don't have the motivation to do (things I
| procrastinate), my strategy is to start doing the smallest
| possible unit of that thing as I can.
|
| I wanted to address this in a separate comment, especially
| given the prevalence in this thread of mentioning ADHD and its
| co-morbidities as further context for struggling with
| procrastination and 'motivation'.
|
| It's important to be very aware about the ways to win and lose
| at what feels like the perpetual battle of trying to trick
| yourself into doing things, and for the crowd who can relate to
| this, I'd offer some caveats to what you said.
|
| The operative point of "the smallest possible unit of that
| thing" is never, ever to systematically map out the entirety of
| a task and _then_ select a small atomic subtask to do; that 's
| just reaffirming your portrayal of something to yourself as
| insurmountable and monolithic.
|
| Instead, choose the "smallest possible unit" that describes
| _starting_ a task, and if the descriptions sound absurd then
| you 're doing it right. For example, to a certain disposition,
| "do your laundry" or "do the dishes" basically invite
| avoidance, but "put your pair of teal socks into the hamper" or
| "turn on the faucet / wash one plate" is extremely easy to
| engage. What usually happens is you autopilot through a bunch
| of the task (it's OK if it's not all of it), and moreover you
| end up feeling great about yourself for doing more than you
| expected, which is strong positive reinforcement.
|
| This is because you're not "shit at doing things"; you just
| need tricks to _start_ doing things. And if the "smallest
| starting point descriptor" doesn't carry you through the entire
| task to completion, that's fine -- you can either parallelize a
| bunch of things this way and jump between them, and/or, your
| next "smallest starting point descriptor" is just the next step
| for that task anyway, so you can jump right back in.
| dropit_sphere wrote:
| This sounds like a hack, but after doing it for long enough,
| you realize it's just a much-needed refactoring.
|
| "Doing the dishes" is made up of individual actions, guys. If
| the outcome of your actions is that your sink is "mostly
| clean, but has a bowl in it," that's...just fine!
| oaao_ wrote:
| I agree - in my experience, "motivation" is a wildly volatile
| concept, especially in how a) when it arrives to your thought
| process, it's usually in the form of bemoaning a _lack_ of
| motivation, and semi-consequently b) one almost always thinks
| about "motivation" in a form that is highly moralized (i.e.
| inviting shame & co.). I find that usually when we employ
| "motivation" as a concept, it is usually (whether explicitly or
| latently) in the context of personal failing.
|
| The most success I've had in actively dealing with things like
| this is when I am able to frame a situation for myself in an
| extra-moral way and actually believe it - i.e. that something
| is, like you said, a matter of habit-building and consistency,
| rather than ontological and exertional good-enough-ness. The
| tough part here is that many people understand this,
| cerebrally, but it takes drilling this perspective quite a lot
| to actually ingrain it into one's belief system.
|
| There's a night and day difference, though, between "well I
| guess I couldn't do it after all" and "well I guess that's a
| one-day blip on a four-day streak", and people with
| 'motivational' difficulties also aren't that great at
| conceptualizing about & nurturing incremental progress towards
| an abstract goal, which this also helps immensely with.
|
| All in all I love that your takeaway was, effectively, that
| 'motivation' can be seen as behavioral inertia that hasn't yet
| been solved by habit-training. It's not a poetic nitpick at
| all; at least in my view it's the fundamental operative basis
| for dealing with the phenomenon of procrastination.
| kaonwarb wrote:
| This is nicely summarized. Bookmarking as a resource for helping
| team members who are new to relatively unstructured work. Thanks.
| vitabenes wrote:
| Awesome! Happy to help
| m1117 wrote:
| "Application error" helped with my procrastination. I thought,
| I'll come back later.
| vitabenes wrote:
| It's back up! Try again and see if it actually helps.
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