[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Finding the Australian Aboriginal flag in al...
___________________________________________________________________
Ask HN: Finding the Australian Aboriginal flag in all artworks
For those who don't know, the Australian Aboriginal flag
(https://i.imgur.com/sGsnLkv.png) is actually copy-righted by an
individual although it is recognized as a national flag. It was
created in 1971 by an artist named Harold Thomas and went onto to
become culturally accepted as the flag of the Aboriginal people.
And then as above, went onto being proclaimed a national flag by
the government. Unfortunately, since then, Harold Thomas has
licensed the flag to various private agencies. One of the licenses
was exclusive to a clothing label, which now means that no other
Aboriginal business can print clothes with the flag on it without
paying royalties. (Sitting around 20%) A lot of Aboriginals feel
dismay at the current situation of the licensing. I am rather free
market orientated and do respect the artists desires. But, the
situation is rather unique, I can't seem to find any other examples
in the world of a nations/cultures flag being owned by an
individual. The creator has no intention to relinquish the
copyright, so movements have already sprung up. A good timeline of
events can be found here ->
https://clothingthegap.com.au/pages/aboriginal-flag-timeline The
page above found an artwork released 4 years prior that contains
the visual elements of the flag -> https://i.imgur.com/rKbS2m4.jpg
The flag artist studied European art just before he created the
aboriginal flag so he may have already copied it himself. For a
bit of fun and to build a case, I thought it would be a cool
experiment to try find the Aboriginal flag in as many pre-existing
artworks as possible. I am looking for API's and libs that would
help me achieve this as I think it is a fun problem. Regardless,
I've used HN for over a decade and have no doubt some of the
smartest people on the planet live here. So if you find this tale
intriguing and perhaps unjust, any advice on how to tackle this
problem from a public policy perspective would also be great.
Author : thomasfromcdnjs
Score : 81 points
Date : 2020-08-17 14:46 UTC (8 hours ago)
| hadrien01 wrote:
| Please don't put tracking links in your text
| thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
| I was just over the character limit so put them in. No
| intention to use, happy to switch them to some privacy centric
| alternative, but I don't know any.
| dang wrote:
| I've replaced two bit.ly links with the URLs they point to in
| your text above. In the future, as gpm points out, you can
| just use 'edit' to get around the length restriction.
| gpm wrote:
| Just switch them for the full urls.
|
| Editing bypasses the text length restriction.
| sp332 wrote:
| https://i.imgur.com/sGsnLkv.png &
| https://clothingthegap.com.au/pages/aboriginal-flag-timeline
| arjie wrote:
| Interesting problem. What is the general class of "find this
| object in other pictures" called? I've noticed that most image
| search aims at a different goal: "find pictures like this
| picture" so tineye, Google Image Search, and friends are unlikely
| to be of use.
|
| By the way, it reminds me of the flag of the Dravida Munnetra
| Kazhagam (a party from my home state in India), which
| coincidentally also uses a Sun amongst their symbols. I wonder if
| they've got a version with the Sun on their flag.
|
| If I were an organization with clout in the field I would propose
| an alternative flag, but I imagine people are attached to this
| one. Well, good luck!
| sloaken wrote:
| I would assume you could not copyright a national flag. If so,
| well heck I can think of a bunch of flags I need to get
| copyrighted.
| ithkuil wrote:
| well, you first have to create a drawing yourself and somehow
| get a nation state to adopt it as a national flag. Order of
| events matters.
| sloaken wrote:
| Like the 'happy birthday' song, if it is not already
| copyrighted .... and who would copyright their national flag.
| 0xfaded wrote:
| Happy birthday is now public domain
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_to_You
| goodcanadian wrote:
| Well, technically, the claim was never valid, but I guess
| it was easier to avoid the song or pay up than it was to
| take it to court.
| stephen_g wrote:
| How many flags did you design that later got adopted by
| countries or people groups?
|
| There's no question he designed it (although that artwork that
| contains a very similar design is very interesting). But the
| Government should have probably compulsorarily acquired it by
| now if he isn't willing to give it up... I guess they're
| waiting for him to die so it won't be as easy for them to be
| dragged to the high court over the "on just terms" clause in
| the Constitution.
| thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
| It won't be in the public domain until 70 years after his
| death. (Though it might be easier to override his heir's
| claim after he is deceased)
| arcticbull wrote:
| Probably longer. Each time Mickey gets close to the end of
| the countdown, it gets extended by the US government and
| their crack squad of Disney negotiators.
| fit2rule wrote:
| The Australian government won't get involved because to do so
| would give more credence to the First Nation people of
| Australia establishing sovereignty ..
| fit2rule wrote:
| You can't copyright a national flag, but this is not really a
| national flag - it _represents_ the First Nation people of
| Australia and Torres Strait - but they do not have sovereignty.
|
| Much as they deserve it.
|
| Therefore this whole despicable episode comes off as a cynical,
| racist attempt to deny the original land owners their rightful
| identity.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > You can't copyright a national flag,
|
| Except maybe the US flag in the US (given the particular US
| prohibition on copyright of federal government works), I
| don't see why not; and, actually, if the US were to adopt a
| private design as the official national flag rather than
| commission it, I'm not sure it would be a problem even in the
| US, since other private works adopted as national standards
| but not created by government in the US remain protected by
| copyright.
|
| There are certainly ways a _private_ copyright on a national
| flag is inconvenient, but inconvenient and impossible aren 't
| the same thing.
| 0xffff2 wrote:
| I know virtually nothing about this topic, but Wikipedia says
| that the flag "is one of the officially proclaimed flags of
| Australia", and the page "List of Australian Flags" [0] lists
| it as a national flag alongside the flag most people would
| recognize as the Australian flag. It seems plausible to me
| based on this that the flag _is_ really a national flag for
| legal purposes.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_flags
| thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
| Here is the original proclamation ->
| https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2008L00209
|
| "I, PHILIP MICHAEL JEFFERY, Governor-General of the
| Commonwealth of Australia, acting with the advice of the
| Federal Executive Council and noting the fact that the flag
| reproduced in Schedule 1 and described in Schedule 2 is
| recognised as the flag of the Aboriginal peoples of
| Australia and a flag of significance to the Australian
| nation generally, appoint that flag, under section 5 of the
| Flags Act 1953, to be the flag of the Aboriginal peoples of
| Australia and to be known as the Australian Aboriginal Flag
| with effect from 1 January 2008."
| refurb wrote:
| How is it racist? The designer and person who owns the
| copyright is aboriginal too.
| ksaj wrote:
| While not exactly the same, the situation with the Canadian RCMP
| (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) uniform might be an interesting
| side note to your quest.
|
| The RCMP uniform trademark was licensed to Walt Disney in order
| to protect it for 5 years while the RCMP learned how to do it on
| their own: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mountie-no-longer-
| disney-s-1....
|
| Canada has specific laws and protocols on the use of its symbols,
| which include the flag. It doesn't cover aboriginal or provincial
| flags, but has some interesting clauses of how and where they can
| be used: https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-
| heritage/services/commerci...
| lathiat wrote:
| Good luck.m
| thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
| Just to add more juice to the story.
|
| The company he gave the exclusive rights to was co-founded by his
| friend. Who got fined 2.4 million dollars the year prior for
| selling "authentic" Aboriginal art that was actually made in
| Indonesia.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jun/11/compa...
| ThePadawan wrote:
| There is similar controversy about the Bisexual pride flag (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_pride_flag#Licensing_... )
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| https://tineye.com/ might be able to help.
| [deleted]
| LatteLazy wrote:
| "Your image is too simple to find matches. TinEye requires a
| basic level of visual detail to successfully identify matches.
| Please upload a more detailed image."
| tomcooks wrote:
| I'd rather use yandex images (https://images.yandex.ru), has
| the best reverse image search
| stareatgoats wrote:
| My two cents: get another flag. It's not even a design that
| signals Australian Aboriginal imo tbh, it looks Japanese if
| anything.
| gnopgnip wrote:
| This flag design would not be eligible for copyright in most
| countries, as it is just geometric designs and doesn't meet the
| threshold of creativity. For instance the Tommy Hilfiger flag has
| been denied copyright protection, it is of similar complexity.
| Has the original copyright ever been tested in court over the
| threshold of creativity?
| arcticbull wrote:
| In fact even the current American Airlines logo was twice
| denied protection for not meeting the threshold of creativity
| -- before eventually being approved in 2018. [1] The bar is
| pretty high.
|
| [1] https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-travel-briefcase-
| amer...
| jszymborski wrote:
| The recognition is the easier part (I'd be more than happy to
| help, email in my profile), the far harder part is identifying
| what historic photos to identify them in. News archives would be
| a good source but copyright laws (rearing their ugly neck again)
| prevent us from easily obtaining a large stack of them.
|
| I know the Australian Broadcasting Company has a lot of their
| archival video under Creative Commons, so that might be a good
| bet. If anyone has a better idea, please let us all know :)
| airbreather wrote:
| The concept of licensing a national flag is interesting, other
| than to maybe prevent unwanted use in certain ways, is this not
| something owned by all Australian people?
|
| If I draw one on a piece of paper and hang it from my balcony,
| where do I stand under this licensing?
|
| And if I sell that on Etsy, or maybe a landscape that has an
| element in the background where this flag can be seen?
|
| (I am an Australian, but not indigenous)
| thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
| Here is a decent summary of the ongoing copyright debate ->
| https://theconversation.com/explainer-our-copyright-laws-and...
| pueblito wrote:
| From that link, "Thomas was successful in establishing his
| claim to authorship before the Federal Court in 1997."
|
| IANAL, but I believe you're 23 years too late
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Authorship isn't sufficient for ownership of copyright.
|
| Trademark is probably the issue that's most pertinent. Even
| if the flag weren't a work owned by Thomas, for copyright
| purposes, then it seems it's their trademark (registered or
| established by use).
|
| IANAL
| Johnjonjoan wrote:
| The closest flag I could find in the ten minutes of Google
| searching I could allot is the flag of the kingdom of Wurttemberg
| (1805 - 1918). It's just missing the yellow circle.
| Coincidentally the coat of arms involves a yellow oval and would
| often be placed in the centre of the flag.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_W%C3%BCrttemberg
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| I am not an ML expert, so I cannot respond myself, but I am
| disappointed at how few responses address the ML aspect of the
| question.
| jlgaddis wrote:
| You're disappointed that a bunch of "ML experts" were not
| monitoring HN, in real-time, just waiting for posts like this
| so that they could drop whatever they were doing and
| immediately respond with a solution to this "problem" -- in
| detail, with the use of ML -- on a Monday morning, within
| roughly an hour or so after the question was initially asked?
|
| ---
|
| To make up for this unimaginable transgression that you have
| been subjected to, I hereby demand that HN/YC immediately
| provide you with a sincere, heartfelt, and public apology and a
| signed and notarized guarantee that they have repented for
| their sins and pinky swear that such an incident will never
| ever ever happen again.
|
| They must do this immediately after they fully refund you every
| single penny you have ever paid them (in this life as well as
| any past ones) and, in order to prove they are taking this
| issue seriously, all of this MUST happen before I click the
| "add comment" button in about two seconds from now ...
|
| ---
|
| _UPDATE:_ dang, I am very disappointed in the lack of
| attention to this matter by HN /YC and you, in particular. It's
| been 25 minutes since I posted this comment, yet this
| absolutely unbelievable occurrence should have been resolved
| _before_ _SubiculumCode_ became "disappointed"!
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| This is unnecessarily abusive.
|
| It also ignores the fact that the one who asked the question
| was hoping for the same thing as SubiculumCode.
| Liveanimalcams wrote:
| my startup tracks and finds items in videos. I'm sure I can spin
| up a new model for you. my email is in my profile
| DarthGhandi wrote:
| > For a bit of fun and to build a case, I thought it would be a
| cool experiment to try find the Aboriginal flag in as many pre-
| existing artworks as possible.
|
| Wouldn't this be the exact thing that the copyright holder would
| want too, only not "for fun" but for litigation?
|
| I'd be interested if it ever existed before the original artist
| made it but have my sincere doubts is even a remote possibility,
| historians seem to be of the opinion he just made it up in the
| 70's and it stuck.
|
| Flags have never held meaning to real indigenous culture.
| luckylion wrote:
| _pre-existing_ is the keyword there, I believe. You can 't
| claim copyright on something you copied, you have to be the
| original creator.
| njharman wrote:
| > You can't claim copyright on something you copied, you have
| to be the original creator.
|
| Depending on jurisdiction and when copyright was claimed
| (laws change) that is not necessarily true. In USA use to be
| first to file was awarded the copyright. Also in USA, for
| instance, copyright is granted for collections,
| organizations, arrangements or compositions of pre-existing
| things. Such a photographer can claim copyright on photo of a
| bridge. Or editor for a collection of public domain poems.
| luckylion wrote:
| > Also in USA, for instance, copyright is granted for
| collections, organizations, arrangements or compositions of
| pre-existing things.
|
| Yes, but you're not copyrighting those pre-existing things
| in that case, you're copyrighting the collection,
| organization etc. And if somebody else had done those
| before, you'll again have a hard time copyrighting it
| (given that you've copied it).
|
| > Such a photographer can claim copyright on photo of a
| bridge.
|
| But not of _the bridge_ , which is the pre-existing thing.
| His photo didn't exist before.
|
| Though photos are, in my opinion (and I'm not a lawyer),
| one of the really interesting things that I believe make a
| lot of the issues of our current system of copyright very
| visible: 100 photographers can stand in the same spot, aim
| their identical cameras at the same point and make
| virtually identical photos, and can all, individually,
| claim copyright on their photo that, if you printed them
| out and mixed them, they couldn't pick from a line-up.
| jcranmer wrote:
| You're mixing up patents with copyright. First-to-file is
| an element of patent law, where priority is given to the
| first person to file the patent as opposed to the prior
| version in the US law (first-to-invent) where priority
| would be given to someone who demonstrated that they
| invented it first.
|
| The actual law for the US (17 USC SS201 (a)):
|
| > Copyright in a work protected under this title vests
| initially in the author or authors of the work. The authors
| of a joint work are coowners of copyright in the work.
|
| You cannot own copyright on a work that you have not
| authored, unless it has been (lawfully) transferred to you.
|
| Incidentally, this is basically the core of the "Happy
| Birthday" copyright dispute: it was never established that
| the Hill sisters authored the lyrics, so they never had a
| copyright interest in it.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| They're probably not confusing patents/copyright.
|
| AIUI, USA didn't adopt copyright as an unregistered
| right, ratifying the Berne Convention, until 1988, 100
| years after most of the rest of the World.
|
| I don't quite know how registration works (see
| copyright.gov) but it seems there might be a presumption
| of ownership that's established? They still have
| registration in USA and it affords greater rights (higher
| damages in cases of infringement I think). Notably,
| novelty is not an absolute requirement for copyright
| registration.
| jcranmer wrote:
| The Copyright Act of 1976 is the big recent overhaul of
| US copyright, which switched copyright to automatic
| registration and established regimes for unpublished and
| orphaned works, which was previously largely handled by
| state laws, usually under common law.
|
| The requirement that the author must hold copyright seems
| to be implicit in earlier versions of copyright law all
| the way back to the 1790 Copyright Act; I don't see any
| provision that would let one copyright a work one was not
| the author of.
|
| Registration creates prima facie evidence that the
| registrant is the legitimate owner of the copyright.
| Anyone who disputes the claim in the face of a registered
| copyright has the burden of proof to demonstrate that the
| registration was erroneous.
| hooper_ wrote:
| Hey mate,
|
| Good luck with this, I think its a good cause. It finally got me
| to register on HN so I could up-vote it :)
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2020-08-17 23:02 UTC)