[HN Gopher] Apple helped make 'top secret' iPod for US government
___________________________________________________________________
Apple helped make 'top secret' iPod for US government
Author : sjcsjc
Score : 316 points
Date : 2020-08-19 16:46 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.co.uk)
| foobarbecue wrote:
| I'm amused that the Apple's IPod software team developed on
| windows machines. (from https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-
| of-the-top-secret-ip... )
| suyash wrote:
| same can be said for Microsoft making MS Office apps for Mac
| and iOS, it's not funny anymore as it used to be.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| AFAIR much early Microsoft development was on Xenix.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| I'll bet that many of the people who worked on iTunes probably
| developed on Windows as well. I'm sure Apple would _prefer_
| that every iPod user own a Mac, but at the time it launched,
| the market would 've been like 90% PC, so surely there would've
| been an incentive to ensure compatibility with your dominant
| user-base.
| kn0where wrote:
| So Agent Cody Banks was realistic after all:
| https://www.icollector.com/item.aspx?i=16246907&mobile=0
| viro wrote:
| yup they helped a spy not get killed ....
| elchin wrote:
| Assuming this is all true - how does something like this leak?
| Wouldn't someone go to prison for the leak?
| obmelvin wrote:
| I remember a couple years ago hearing a talk about using
| smartphone camera sensors to detect radiation levels - the idea
| of using such devices is out in the open now
| xxpor wrote:
| Using traditional film is more or less how radioactivity was
| discovered in the first place:
|
| https://www2.lbl.gov/abc/wallchart/chapters/03/4.html
|
| Using modern sensors seems like the logical extension of
| that.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| Reasonable possibility nobody involved signed an NDA or filled
| out any paperwork, given how unofficial it was. It's been
| fifteen years, it's likely the hardware in question is long
| deprecated in favor of covert hardware that looks like a modern
| smartphone or something.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Right, someone walking around carrying an iPod has gone from
| notable to mundane and back to notable. No longer the way to
| blend in.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| It's also possibly one of the reasons we're so worried
| about Huawei here in the US right now: We know what our
| guys can do. We may know a fair bit about what China can or
| has done. And nobody wants to talk specifically about what
| those things are.
| hazeii wrote:
| Apple are generally considered to be best when it comes to
| protecting their user's privacy (edit: issues like this aside).
|
| It does make me wonder what the others are doing.
| dastx wrote:
| No, Apple wants you to think they're the best when it comes to
| protecting user's privacy.
|
| Don't forget Apple was one of the many companies part of the
| PRISM program.
| lawnchair_larry wrote:
| If by "part of the PRISM program" you mean "responds to court
| orders and routinely fights orders that are too broad", then
| I suppose that is accurate.
| babypuncher wrote:
| You act like companies had a choice
| nojito wrote:
| Only because refusing would have bankrupted them.
|
| The idea that Apple doesn't protect user privacy is absolute
| nonsense.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Talk to any engineer at Apple and they'll tell you that
| privacy is involved with every feature development and
| pervades every discussion internally. It's not a facade.
| joe_away629 wrote:
| The DEA -> Geiger counter connection is so obvious that I feel
| like it must be misdirection, a red herring.
| reaperducer wrote:
| Here's the link to the original article about this, instead of
| the BBC's less interesting re-hash of someone else's work:
|
| https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-ip...
| dang wrote:
| It's good to link to both, but the BBC article does contain
| some extra information.
| Groxx wrote:
| The BBC article is also less than 1/4 of the size, for those
| not enthused about reading news in short-story form.
| surround wrote:
| 2 days ago
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24188791
| corin_ wrote:
| That original source was on HN a couple of days ago with
| comments too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24188791
|
| Side note: lots of people in the UK are boycotting the BBC
| _today_ , one day only, as a protest against their use of the
| N-word on their TV news and subsequent refusal to apologise
| (until they then backed down after a prominent black presenter
| publicly resigned).
|
| So yes, please everyone click the original story not the BBC
| version, at least until tomorrow :)
| secondcoming wrote:
| They used the N-word because the family of the victim asked
| them to report fully what happened.
|
| There are far better reasons to boycott the BBC than that.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| davb wrote:
| To add some context to the side-note, for those unfamiliar
| with the story, the BBC used that word in an
| editorial/journalistic context, quoting the racial abuse a
| man suffered after being intentionally hit with a car while
| waiting on the bus. The victim's family were determined that
| the BBC show pictures showing the extent of his injuries and
| quote, in full, the racist tirade he was subject to during
| the attack.
|
| Whether or not you agree with them using that word on a news
| report, I think the context and intent are really important.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Why was this thread collapsed by the mods?
| corin_ wrote:
| It got auto collapsed because it's a reply to my comment
| that got flagged and killed. Almost certainly users
| flagging it (although oddly it's also positively upvoted)
| not a mod decision.
| lostlogin wrote:
| That's the fastest u-turn I've done in a while. Context
| matters.
|
| So by avoiding the BBC site, you're going against the
| victim's wishes?
|
| Edit: on reading further on this, there seems to have been
| more outrage at the BBC reporting what was said, as they
| were asked to do, than at the near murder of the guy in an
| unprovoked racist attack.
| drkstr wrote:
| > on reading further on this, there seems to have been
| more outrage at the BBC reporting what was said, as they
| were asked to do, than at the near murder of the guy in
| an unprovoked racists attack.
|
| That's modern society in a nutshell for ya. It seems like
| the priority is more about virtue signaling than it is
| about seeking truth and justice in all things.
| corin_ wrote:
| For most non-racists, it goes without saying that race-
| related violence is unacceptable.
|
| Sadly it also happens often enough that we aren't going
| to tweet/write a comment saying "this is bad" every
| single time it happens.
|
| Whereas the BBC journalist using that word was a) not a
| common event b) as seen in this thread not such a binary
| good/bad thing even among non-racists and c) affects news
| standards that broadcast to huge numbers of people.
|
| If I could prevent one physical attack by allowing one
| use of the word on the TV I would, but I don't think it's
| at all hypocritical or virtue signalling that many people
| felt it more important to talk about the journalism than
| the case being reported.
| SllX wrote:
| You remember the good old days when all politics was
| local? Now it's all _International_. All of it. The
| British Broadcasting Corp. is a Crown Corporation mostly
| funded through TV licenses charged to British subjects
| when I last checked. Maybe that's changed, but it's not
| in my wheelhouse as an American citizen on American soil
| to help regulate your lexicon. Do what you think is
| right, but consider the place in which you choose to
| proselytize with greater care. That's what the Twatter is
| for.
| corin_ wrote:
| Yes you're right, sorry if anyone read my comment to imply
| that BBC actively used that word to describe a black person
| themselves.
|
| But it's pretty much accepted in the UK and especially UK
| media that if reporting on it, you say "the n word",
| especially if you're a white reporter.
|
| A lot of people were extremely offended, even in the
| context you've added, and the BBC have now acknowledged it
| was wrong.
|
| The reason for today's boycott is partly their delay (and
| initial defence), and partly a wide, subjective view of
| institutional racism among large parts of the BBC.
|
| This is obviously a very complex topic, but for now can't
| we at least agree that we don't need to hear the n-word
| purposefully spoken by BBC News?
| scohesc wrote:
| I disagree...
|
| It's the same thing as saying "the n word" to me. You're
| still telling someone the word and it shouldn't matter in
| this instance, because they're reporting on what was
| said, written, or done.
|
| Context and intent matter. If a single word causes so
| much outrage, you need to look at who exactly is getting
| offended. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of
| black people don't find offense in it being said at all -
| again, if you give them the context. Just telling them
| "BBC guy said the word!" is a bit disingenuous.
| corin_ wrote:
| > _It 's the same thing as saying "the n word" to me_
|
| The difference IMO is that one is a reminder to anyone
| listening that they should never use that word, whereas
| the other is a normalisation or hearing it.
|
| I'm certainly not an expert on this subject though, and
| being white myself I take my lead in this area, and on
| this story, from non-white people who I know or who I
| follow in politics/media/etc. I can't speak to how the
| majority of black people on the UK feel, but definitely
| plenty of them understood the context and were still very
| outspoken against it.
|
| Here's one high profile example (the one that arguably
| made BBC back down) https://news.sky.com/story/sideman-
| quits-bbc-over-use-of-rac...
| jhardy54 wrote:
| > The victim's family were determined that the BBC show
| pictures showing the extent of his injuries and quote, in
| full, the racist tirade he was subject to during the
| attack.
|
| Sorry, I'm having trouble parsing this sentence -- could
| you elaborate? I think my confusion is centered on the word
| 'determined'.
| CiaranMcNulty wrote:
| > The victim's family were [resolute] that the BBC
| [should] show pictures showing the extent of his injuries
| and quote, in full, the racist tirade he was subject to
| during the attack.
| mh- wrote:
| Replace 'determined' with 'deadset' (or 'resolute'),
| perhaps.
| corin_ wrote:
| The victim's family specifically requested that the
| journalist repeat the phrase used in full. The
| journalist/editors obviously made the choice, but they
| chose to go by the family's wishes rather than by the
| general consensus on whether it's acceptable to say that
| word even in the context of reporting about it.
| detaro wrote:
| replace with "insisted"?
| jacksonpollock wrote:
| what's an ipod?
| macintux wrote:
| Some limited discussion on this from a couple of days ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24188791
| justinclift wrote:
| Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24205888
| rohit89 wrote:
| > Only four people at Apple knew about this secret project. Me,
| the director of iPod Software, the vice president of the iPod
| Division, and the senior vice president of Hardware.
|
| Not even Steve Jobs? Shouldn't this have been his decision?
| garmaine wrote:
| I doubt Steve Jobs would have submitted to the burdens of
| getting and retaining top secret clearance.
| philwelch wrote:
| Apparently he did in 1988. Things at NeXT must have been
| desperate: https://www.wired.com/2012/06/steve-jobs-security-
| clearance/
|
| Edit: It actually says he got the clearance because Pixar was
| doing some government work at the time.
| getpost wrote:
| Jobs had a top secret clearance.
| https://www.informationweek.com/desktop/steve-jobs-the-
| fbi-f...
| garmaine wrote:
| For only about two years in the late 80's.
| manmal wrote:
| Plausible deniability is a great idea if the CEO has to testify
| before congress every once in a while.
| kodablah wrote:
| Can I see one and inspect the hardware? Remember, we discounted
| Bloomberg's story concerning SuperMicro implants (likely
| justifiably) for not having hardware and not naming sources. Does
| this story about the ability for hardware to be altered from a
| large manufacturer at the behest of the government with so few
| knowing about it for so long (even within the company),
| unreported by anyone else, and not going on record with their
| names about it until way later give any credence to other similar
| stories that may not yet be at the reveal names and insider info
| stage?
|
| (to clarify, I believe this story and am skeptical of the
| Bloomberg one, I just find the 15-year secrecy and limited scope
| notable)
| nojito wrote:
| There's a reason why Bloomberg didn't retract the story.
|
| The idea that senior execs know everything that happens at
| their respective company is borderline nonsense.
| lawnchair_larry wrote:
| > There's a reason why Bloomberg didn't retract the story.
|
| Not a valid one. The story was false.
| toast0 wrote:
| I honestly suspect the reporter was at least very confused,
| but the firmware for the BMC on SuperMicro boards has had
| some serious security vulnerabilities from time to time ---
| I wonder if that's the base of story, and it got confused
| from there.
| jakobmartz3 wrote:
| Wow, interesting read. Wonder what else they do to normal apple
| products.
| nikk1 wrote:
| I doubt this project was "Top Secret" ... If it was, I doubt we
| would be reading about it here...
| dplavery92 wrote:
| If Shayer's (in turn, Apple's) participation were classified,
| he would be looking at a serious criminal offense for writing
| the article. The hardware and functionality of the devices that
| the Bechtel engineers were integrating, about which Shayer only
| speculates, could well have been so classified, though.
| suyash wrote:
| Why would you go through the pain of all this, just make the copy
| of the case and mimic the software UI - underneath it can be all
| of your custom hardware and software. No need to bother Apple.
| This is how most of the fake iPhones are made in China.
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| > Why would you go through the pain of all this
|
| So that it's extremely difficult to detect that it's not a
| regular ipod, even if disassembled.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Would you want to be accused of being a spy?
|
| On second thought I wonder if it was a geiger counter that can
| secretly phone home and report data when connected to the
| Internet when the user adds music. Get into the Apple supply
| chain and make sure they end up in Apple stores near your
| "targets".
|
| That's exactly why it would need to be undetectable.
| pritovido wrote:
| Because it takes tens of millions of dollars to replicate the
| functionality of the Ipod-Iphone.
|
| Chinese do it in a completely different way, using
| prefabricated components.
|
| Secret services can not use prefabricated Chinese components
| because those need to be audited and that cost millions too.
|
| So using already made American companies components' is the
| obvious solution. It just cost hundreds of thousands of
| dollars.
| azinman2 wrote:
| It was cutting edge at the time. There were no clones.
| ianmobbs wrote:
| Here's the link to the original article -
| https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-ip...
| runako wrote:
| Blogspam from https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-
| secret-ip...
| xxpor wrote:
| I think the focus on nuclear power in the article is naive at
| best. Bechtel helps run the national labs, which work on (among
| other things) nuclear weapons and anti-proliferation. I would
| think it's more likely this would be for anti-proliferation work.
| Have a CIA asset walk near a suspected nuclear facility with this
| in their pocket while looking like a civilian. Collect radiation
| data, and if they get arrested or something, it's just an ipod.
| autisticcurio wrote:
| Its funny really because I never took my uncle seriously in the
| 90's when he said I should develop my own Geiger counter
| amongst other electronic devices. Of course I didnt realise the
| significance of the fact he had access to the Prestel system
| which the Govt and Royal Family used for messaging before email
| became the standard in days when computer hacking was still
| legal. He also supplied GCHQ with telecomes equipment. Probably
| contributes to reasons why he broke out of HMP Parkhurst and
| tried to escape the country. If you wrote his degree titles out
| in full, it would take half a page of A4 before he could even
| start writing a letter.
|
| It makes me wonder what he knew back then, but as I cant visit
| him, if he is ever let out, or I dont get another attempt on my
| life, maybe one day we'll meet & he'll spill the beans more
| openly.
|
| Of course, I can get nodules of raw uranium sticking out the
| soil eroded by the sea along the Jurassic Coast in Dorset, UK.
| It doesnt take a rocket scientist to make a dirty nuke or even
| a decent nuke. There is enough information online from
| reputable sources like the BBC, Youtube showing 50year WW2 US &
| UK Govt archive footage and interviews in scientific journals
| who worked on the Manhattan Project and other nuclear projects
| to piece together the "meta data" in order to make one,
| including spotting the spurious info which will make you fail
| if one should attempt to make one.
| dplavery92 wrote:
| You may be able to find uranium ore with relative ease, but
| enrichment is a nation-state level project that is unlikely
| to escape the notice of the world's intelligence and energy
| agencies.
| autisticcurio wrote:
| >but enrichment is a nation-state level project Thats what
| this man of science said.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69UpMhUnEeY
|
| >is unlikely to escape the notice of the world's
| intelligence and energy agencies Thats how Iran and Stuxnet
| came together.
|
| Some history https://www.miningreview.com/uranium/avoiding-
| covid-fatigue-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_min
| ing_in_Namibia#Back...
|
| Teflon as mentioned in the Youtube vid at the beginning
| also demonstrates another way to enrich uranium. Are those
| the only two? I think not.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| So many questions.....
|
| This sounds like an really great story if you feel like
| sharing; I'm hooked to hear more about this guy, why he's in
| jail and the attempt on your life...
|
| Apologies if it was really traumatic and I'm being
| insensative...
| croh wrote:
| Last time I heard the guy named Sheldon Cooper tried to buy
| yello cake Uranium and it didn't turn out well !
| orf wrote:
| > If you wrote his degree titles out in full, it would take
| half a page of A4 before he could even start writing a
| letter.
|
| No, his full degree titles do not take up 300 words.
|
| If you want to converse online without sounding completely
| crazy, focus on reducing the ridiculous hyperbole and stick
| to short, comprehensive and digestible statements that flow
| together and form a cohesive argument/statement.
| saagarjha wrote:
| But the comment wasn't intended to be a cohesive
| argument/statement, it was a personal anecdote with mild
| exaggeration for the effect of being entertaining. I don't
| see the commenter as crazy at all; at worst a bit
| overenthusiastic to share details about their uncle who
| probably had some sort of security clearance. Why do you
| have to be so rude?
| jl6 wrote:
| Out of interest, going by your username, do you consider
| yourself to be autistic? You write exactly like a relative of
| mine who definitely has something undiagnosed.
| thuganalyst wrote:
| GPT-3 is that you?
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| Please let us know when this novel is complete, it sounds
| like a fun read!
| hindsightbias wrote:
| Or swap it with one an unwitting asset carries around at work.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| Isn't that exactly what the article says?
| ehsankia wrote:
| That was my understanding too. What other "nuclear energy"
| related use would there be for a hidden Geiger counter?
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| If you've looked at the open source particle detector[1] you see
| that the "sensor" can be a reverse biased diode. Nothing very
| fancy.
|
| [1] https://github.com/ozel/DIY_particle_detector
| danans wrote:
| Nobody has asked it yet,so I will. What is the use case for this
| device. I know, the article says "measure radiation without being
| noticed", but what are the actual situations where you would want
| to do that?
|
| Presumably sending spies to gather data on nuclear weapons
| production sites? Wouldn't those sites have crazy operational
| security and would confiscate things like iPods before entering
| anyways?
|
| Or is the idea to detect facilities that are building dirty-bombs
| in dense urban areas (a-la some scene set in middle-eastern
| country X from the show 'Homeland')
| stonogo wrote:
| As someone who has done some contracting work in this space,
| I'd say one of the use cases for this is shipping inspections
| at ports. Not everything the government considers sensitive is
| the Jason Bourne black-ops stuff most of the comments here are
| fantasizing about.
|
| Here's a couple overviews:
|
| https://www.energy.gov/nnsa/nnsa-and-nuclear-smuggling-detec...
|
| https://www.epa.gov/radtown/radiation-and-shipping-port-secu...
| danans wrote:
| But then why embed it in an iPod?
| rockinghigh wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_MASINT
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >measure radiation without being noticed", but what are the
| actual situations where you would want to do that?
|
| Most likely it was for use against Iran or some allies who we
| didn't want to overtly say we don't trust.
| widforss wrote:
| The use case for the iPod could be anything, but one time that
| Swedish authorities wanted to covertly measure radiation was
| during Whiskey on the rocks
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363). They
| pulled up small boats beside the sub and put Geiger counters
| directly against the hull while pretending to do something
| else.
| [deleted]
| csilverman wrote:
| I look forward to the day when one of these makes an appearance
| on one of those prototype/collector forums.
|
| "So my friend who used to work at the DOE was getting rid of some
| stuff and he had this iPod, and it looks like a regular iPod but
| I took a look inside and does anybody know what the hell this
| is...?"
| hcarvalhoalves wrote:
| You bet!
|
| Does anyone have the link to the story about the guy who found
| a Made in China power strip w/ a hidden bug inside?
| rockinghigh wrote:
| You can buy them: https://www.trackers-cam.com/en/gsm-spy-
| microphone/329-gsm-c...
|
| The power strip calls you as soon as it detects a sound.
| csilverman wrote:
| Not sure if this is the story you're thinking of, but I do
| recall hearing a while ago about Chinese irons and kettles
| that came with some, er, undocumented features:
|
| https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hacked-from-china-is-your-
| kettl...
| ArnoVW wrote:
| I remember Christmas cards produced in China, containing
| secret 'help me' messages from prisoners that were used as
| cheap labor:
|
| https://www.npr.org/2019/12/23/790832681/6-year-old-finds-
| me...
| reaperducer wrote:
| _I look forward to the day when one of these makes an
| appearance on one of those prototype /collector forums._
|
| It's surprising how frequently restricted computing devices end
| up in public hands.
|
| Through a relative who worked for a guy who knew a guy and so
| on, I ended up with the world's most awesome GRiD Compass back
| in the 80's. It was supposedly formerly used by someone in the
| Reagan administration, and had big stickers on the bottom
| listing all the countries where it was never to be used.
|
| I threw it away when I got my first IBM XT. Stupid of me.
| gambiting wrote:
| A whole bunch of Sony devkits have gone on auction at one
| time, because the company went into bankruptcy and appointed
| administrators just went ahead to sell all company property.
| Of course Sony protested saying that they can't sell the
| devkits, but the administrators basically told them to get in
| the long line of people with some kind of claim. It's company
| property it's getting sold.
| emiliobumachar wrote:
| I'm missing some context. Why would Sony devkits be
| sensitive? What exactly do you mean by "devkit"? I though
| of those development kits with one specific processor you
| want to get familiar with, plus auxiliary hardware and
| software to help access it.
| cdcarter wrote:
| You're on the right track, but they're usually considered
| rentals not purchased property. The Apple ARM devkit Mac
| Mini, for example, has to be returned to Apple at the end
| of the preview.
| saagarjha wrote:
| What's interesting is that some people have the old
| (Intel) developer transition kits, even though Apple has
| done extraordinarily well in the intervening time period.
| One wonders how Apple missed them...
| codebeaker wrote:
| Exactly, and often times extraordinarily valuable because
| they can be used for reverse engineering, or learning how
| the key signing or DRM works, or can be bypassed.
|
| Of course, most legitimate indie communities stay away
| from this, preferring clean-room RE efforts.
| jandrese wrote:
| If you got your hands on the devkit without signing the
| NDA with Sony you could release details about how it
| works.
| saagarjha wrote:
| It's interesting to see Apple prototypes with serial numbers
| on them crop up all over the place...
| dylan604 wrote:
| Or some drunk engineer leaves the device at at a bar.
| bnt wrote:
| I still firmly believe it was a marketing stunt by Apple.
| dylan604 wrote:
| To what purpose? To get people talking about the newest
| version of the iPhone? Don't think this stunt was required
| for that.
| kosherbeefcake wrote:
| I remember reading a conspiracy that the iPhone 4 was
| left at that bar, because Samsung was about to announce
| the latest Galaxy phone. Apple did this to take the wind
| out of their sails.
| serf wrote:
| yeah, me too , but the 'Apple Police' aspect of that
| marketing stunt left me with a negative impression -- so I
| guess it wasn't an all-around net good advertising wise.
| sneak wrote:
| The drunk engineer is my friend, it was his birthday, and
| it wasn't a stunt. He was authorized to have the device out
| for testing, and brought it with him to his birthday at a
| beer bar.
|
| You know the rest of the story. Apple is entirely familiar
| with the Osborne Effect.
| ameen wrote:
| I wanted to know what happened to him after that. Were
| there any repercussions? Is he still there?
| coopsmgoops wrote:
| Probably on Gizmodo. Steve Jobs will be rolling in his grave.
| tossAfterUsing wrote:
| related? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet#History
| easton wrote:
| Maybe, but that wouldn't necessarily require modifications to
| the iPod. iPods could be used as USB external drives and you
| could just load it on there without having to mess with the OS
| at all.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Can anyone be so kind as to explain to me why did Apple accept to
| do this work without contract and payment, as the blog describes?
|
| Engineer hours cost the company time they would otherwise invest
| in their current products in development.
|
| Why do it for free? It's not like the US Gov can't afford it.
| scohesc wrote:
| It's like sticking your foot in the door on the small level,
| except translating it to the big picture, where spending a
| paltry few million on a custom iPod could lead to billion
| dollar contracts in the long-term.
| vaxman wrote:
| As was widely reported at that time, the three letter agencies
| were among the largest customers of NeXTStep, the software that
| forms the basis of the professional operating system that Apple
| later acquired to replace the original unorthodox (and barely
| functioning) software that Jobs hobbled together with a motley
| crew of hackers while running Apple during the DOS era.
| Enterprises of all kinds that had the flexibility (or pressure)
| to think outside of the box went with NeXTStep because it
| allowed totally custom applications to be developed in record
| time (using things like Interface Builder, today part of the
| visual layout in Xcode). It is totally unsurprising that they
| would turn to their long time partner Steve Jobs for help with
| a mobile solution and that he would do it for free to
| eventually sell of more technology to those long time customers
| from before he sold NeXT to Apple and became its iCEO.
| kube-system wrote:
| Companies do free work for large potential customers all of the
| time, in lots of industries. The idea is that you do something
| small to demonstrate your capability to take on a larger paid
| opportunity.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_concept
| [deleted]
| WilTimSon wrote:
| Because complying with the government is a good idea when that
| government keeps giving you tax breaks and favourable
| treatment. Most companies, even ones that oppose some state
| policies (particularly surveillance), cooperate with government
| or get funding from them still. So not burning bridges is
| important. I'm sure the expenses weren't too significant but
| letting the project go free gives them tons of goodwill from
| the leaders.
| simonh wrote:
| It sounds like it was really just a few hours of one engineer's
| time, when he didn't have any imminent deadlines. Not enough to
| compromise any ongoing projects.
| niffydroid wrote:
| Probably out of good faith. Can't be accused of not helping the
| US government. Also sets a bar of how much help they'll willing
| to offer. Maybe also wanted control over who had access to
| their information, rather give it to them then have it stolen
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| Not to mention other defense / government agencies might come
| forward to Apple with projects.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| There is a cultural precedent here with Graphing Calculator:
| https://www.pacifict.com/Story/
| dhosek wrote:
| Not really a precedent, imho, but still a great story.
|
| My favorite part, the last line, "We wanted to release a
| Windows version as part of Windows 98, but sadly, Microsoft
| has effective building security."
| rootsudo wrote:
| First time I read this story! :) Thanks, I never knew!
| csboyer wrote:
| I'm sure Apple's government relations attorney was involved in
| some way and helped keep the project siloed. There was likely
| some contract, but is buried now.
| chromaton wrote:
| Government: "We'll give you this big no-bid contract, but
| there's one other thing you need to do for us first..."
| emptyparadise wrote:
| This makes me wonder, I know Linux can run on some iPods, but did
| anybody ever run homebrew apps or games on the native iPod OS?
| netsharc wrote:
| I would imagine the "OS" doesn't have a lot of graphical
| routines, just to draw text/menues, scroll bar (to indicate
| song progress) and some library to display images (for album
| covers). And that it boots straight into this player app, and
| it has no idea of how to load other apps...
| ladberg wrote:
| There were native games on it already!
| saagarjha wrote:
| Including a Breakout clone, of course ;)
| tantalor wrote:
| http://preserve.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.20/20.04/Sn...
| pronoiac wrote:
| I remembered there were third-party games available on the
| iPod, but checking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod_game , it
| doesn't look like an SDK ever made it to the public.
| newsbinator wrote:
| I used to run this on my iPod happily: https://www.rockbox.org
| riffic wrote:
| Apple will neither confirm nor deny the existence of such a
| project.
| draw_down wrote:
| Perhaps but that doesn't really matter, Tony Fadell confirmed
| it. Enthusiastically, even.
| aresant wrote:
| __
| dannyw wrote:
| The limit on this is speed of internet transfers.
|
| It takes 2 days for me to run badblocks on my 16TB drive!
| Nasrudith wrote:
| Get this straight - it was essentially bribing four of their
| workers to make an "authenic" iPod that had added functionality
| to secretly gather it. An overpriced pork bespoke hardware
| hacking project, not adding bugs to every iPod produced or
| anything. If anything they would be annoyed not grateful over
| the covert poaching and they certainly would get blocked if
| they tried to sue anyone over it but the losses were
| petty/background cost of doing business anyway.
|
| There isn't any factual basis where that incident contribuites
| to that fallacious narrative. If I were a plumber and doing
| work on a CIA building they might do a background check so deep
| that it finds and analyzes any colon polyps to ensure I won't
| be planting any bugs in the plumbing but it doesn't mean "I am
| pretty much the CIA."
| ghshephard wrote:
| Even less - it was asking for some tech support from Apple to
| learn how to hack Apple Hardware with their _own_ (Bechtel)
| engineers - the actual hardware /software was done by
| Bechtel. Given this particular engineer is talking about it -
| they didn't have to undergo security clearance (if they had,
| they wouldn't be talking about it. Ever.)
|
| All apple did was provide a little bit of JTAG/Build/Source
| Code support. The rest was up to a third party.
| [deleted]
| tosh wrote:
| tweet by Tony Fadell (iPod): Absolutely spot on
| David Shayer... This project was real w/o a doubt.
| There was whole surreal drama & interesting story about how this
| project was kicked off & then kept secret. The Case of
| the Top Secret iPod
|
| https://twitter.com/tfadell/status/1295727727606104064
| AgloeDreams wrote:
| (For those not in the know, Tony was the leader of iPod
| Projects back then, basically acting as full 100% confirmation
| of this story being true.)
| marvindanig wrote:
| Ahem, ahem. Would it be surprising if such a "crazy cool
| technology" is embedded into the AirPods of late and being used
| by your political opponents?
| babypuncher wrote:
| How do you suppose AirPods with a built-in hidden Geiger
| counter could be used to attack political opponents?
| philwelch wrote:
| This reminds me of the Xerox machine in the Soviet Embassy. Xerox
| embedded a small camera that recorded every photocopied document
| on microfilm and recovered the microfilm for the CIA whenever
| they serviced the machine.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| So the soviets didn't bother to check the american made Xerox
| machine for bugs and just let it rip at their confidential
| documents? I find that hard to belive. Got a source?
| philwelch wrote:
| This is when Xerox machines were first invented; otherwise
| they would probably have used a Soviet-produced photocopier
| instead of using a magical American machine in the first
| place.
|
| There are lots of sources but this is one:
| https://electricalstrategies.com/about/in-the-news/spies-
| in-...
| spideymans wrote:
| If true, that is stunningly naive by the Soviets. Almost
| too naive. Are we certain they weren't intentionally
| feeding the machine bad intelligence?
| philwelch wrote:
| People in the real world often have terrible opsec. Maybe
| we take our instincts about information security for
| granted these days. Maybe the Soviets just photocopied
| their own butts to prank the CIA. I honestly don't know.
| golergka wrote:
| > Soviet-produced photocopier
|
| I don't think that such a thing ever existed.
| failuser wrote:
| It did exist, but KGB realized it was thread early on and
| prevented mass adoption. The access to ability to
| photocopy has highly restricted, but it did not prevent
| people from copying forbidden literature.
| https://ethw.org/Oral-History:Vladimir_Fridkin
| failuser wrote:
| If I were a Soviet agent, I would have fed the machine
| disinformation. But who knows.
| joezydeco wrote:
| No less believable than the bugged IBM typewriters that were
| used at the US Embassy for nearly a decade before the hack
| was found:
|
| https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/
| pkaye wrote:
| > "I have a special assignment for you. Your boss doesn't know
| about it. You'll help two engineers from the US Department of
| Energy build a special iPod. Report only to me.
|
| So how does this work in weekly on-on-one meetings with his boss?
| tantalor wrote:
| Answered here:
|
| > My boss was told I was working on a special project and not
| to ask questions.
| microtherion wrote:
| It should be noted that this situation is not all that
| uncommon at Apple. For pre-1.0 iOS work, e.g., often
| individual engineers on macOS teams were tapped to do iOS
| specific changes to their components without their managers
| having clearance to know about it.
|
| For the Mac Intel switch, the situation was even more
| curious, as the earlier work was carried out by a larger
| group of engineers, with little special secrecy, but the
| final stretch was done by a smaller subset of those engineers
| in strict secrecy, while the others were led to conclude that
| the effort had petered out.
|
| The difference in this case was, of course, that the client
| of the special project was apparently external...
| thephyber wrote:
| If only I could figure out how to get that message to my
| boss...
| tantalor wrote:
| Easy, have your boss's boss tell them.
| aaron695 wrote:
| This will be Stuxnet.
|
| This has nothing to do with a geiger counter or measuring
| radioactivity.
|
| Watch the doco Zero Days. It's an ok round up of Stuxnet.
| r12477 wrote:
| Stuxnet has been well broken down and described. It had nothing
| to do with iPods with surreptitious recording capabilities.
| williesleg wrote:
| Oh, that's amazing! China embeds it all in the chips, I guess the
| US isn't that smart.
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