[HN Gopher] Jacques Cousteau's grandson wants to build the ISS o...
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Jacques Cousteau's grandson wants to build the ISS of the sea
Author : YeGoblynQueenne
Score : 293 points
Date : 2020-08-26 09:02 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.smithsonianmag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.smithsonianmag.com)
| Tepix wrote:
| There sure is a lot to discover below the surface of our oceans.
|
| I recently watched "Diving Deep"
| https://de.oceanfilmtour.com/en/movies/volume-7/diving-deep/ a
| documentary (part of the Ocean Film Tour 2020) about Mike deGruy,
| an ocean cinematographer.
|
| deGruy showed what the chemicals that were used to disperse the
| oil during the Deepwater Horizon spill did to the life on the
| ocean floor. The chemicals removed the oil from the surface of
| the ocean (where it was visible), but made a mess below the
| surface. A wakeup call for sure.
|
| He also appears to have been a really nice, fun guy.
| techwarrior wrote:
| Completely support this. Grew up loving his father's programs
| and I think we should invest more in saving our planet than
| going to Mars.
| solarengineer wrote:
| Those who understand rocket engineering can't just be asked
| to switch to something else, though. In any case, there has
| been a lot of evidence that humans' foray into space has led
| to a lot of innovation of technologies that we've used here
| on Earth.
|
| We also should have a plan B as a species.
|
| I'm of the camp that believes we should go to space and also
| focused on saving the Earth.
| anotheryou wrote:
| - why just 60 feet / 20m below the surface?
|
| - what will be possible that now is not?
| imglorp wrote:
| For extended stays, physiology demands of breathing compressed
| gasses get complicated. At that depth, the effects are
| minimized.
| The_rationalist wrote:
| I _strongly_ recommend the YouTube channel deep sea oddities:
|
| https://youtu.be/pDW4IYVlbbw
|
| It made me realize that alien like life is more fascinating on
| earth than it will ever be on my lifetime lurking at the space.
| 9nGQluzmnq3M wrote:
| I suspect somebody was inspired by the Octonauts' Octopod, down
| to the "liquid door" hatch inside:
|
| https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/octopod/images/f/fd/Octo...
| moron4hire wrote:
| I was seriously hoping it was going to be shaped like the
| Octopod. Instead, it looks like "my first Maya project". Very
| disappointing.
| iso1210 wrote:
| I never really liked Octonauts. I was gutted when the kids were
| old enough that they didn't want to watch the latest Fireman
| Sam movie on the other hand - especially after I'd spent 2
| years waiting for it :(
|
| They grow up so fast.
| michaelmcdonald wrote:
| How can you not like Octonauts?! It's so wholesome! Covers
| great topics about creatures that rarely get the exposure
| that their land-based comrades do, the characters are unique,
| funny, strong, and demonstrate all the qualities you would
| want scientists to have!
|
| <3 Octonauts!
| mywacaday wrote:
| My nearly 5 year old is obsessed with Octonauts and is able
| to recite a lot of accurate factual information form their
| end of show "Creature Reports", now if i can only get him as
| obsessed with school.....
| khazhoux wrote:
| Get the hardcover books the show was based on. Beautiful
| artwork!!
| booleangate wrote:
| Fireman Sam is trash. Long live Sarah and Duck! ;)
| notduncansmith wrote:
| Never thought I'd be giving shouts out to Sarah and Duck on
| HN but here we are. That show has a rare combination of
| real chill and real personality. As my son is aging out of
| Sarah and Duck, I'm hoping to find similar content to offer
| him that will be stimulating but not spastic like so many
| shows. I would also love to find more stuff like Beat Bugs
| and Motown Magic, which are a bit more typical but still
| wholesome.
| jonquark wrote:
| quack.
| jessriedel wrote:
| > down to the "liquid door" hatch inside:
|
| Moon pools or wet porches have been ubiquitous in underwater
| habitats for many decades.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_pool
|
| That you know of them through a cartoon is not a good criticism
| of the proposal.
| 9nGQluzmnq3M wrote:
| Who's criticising? The Octonauts is an awesome show, and this
| concept is awesome too!
| dllthomas wrote:
| Moon Pools have been the cool thing since at least 1989. Can't
| have a water tentacle in your habitat without a moon pool.
| ourcat wrote:
| Curious lack of any mention of Jacques Cousteau's first son (and
| father of Fabien) Jean-Michel, who I met about a decade ago while
| doing some work for his Ocean Futures Society.
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| Anyone else immediately thinking about Subnautica while looking
| at the article's teaser image? :)
| nallic wrote:
| I think about Subnautica all the time - I love that game :) -
| can't wait for below zero to release!
| paimoe wrote:
| Ever since I built the big submarine I've wanted one in real
| life
| flixic wrote:
| Go to comments, Cmd + F, "Subnautica", yup, exact same
| thoughts. Even the way "SeaMoth" docks.
| dougmwne wrote:
| One of my all-time favorite games. I think it's the most
| emotionally raw game I've ever played. There are strong moments
| of wonder, curiosity, and fear. And it inspires both love and
| fear of the real ocean (and viscerally taught me why cave
| divers are maniacs). Jacques Cousteau's grandson should have
| gone into game development if he wanted to get more people
| interested in the sea.
| Reason077 wrote:
| I thought "Sealab 2021"!
| dllthomas wrote:
| Pod 6 is jerks!
| executive wrote:
| We already have an ISS of the Sea. Many believe this
| 'International Swimming Station' is the real ISS.
|
| > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_Buoyancy_Laboratory
| jimbob21 wrote:
| That seems to be just a pool to mimic zero gravity, which I
| would not equate to the ISS in ocean form at all
| okareaman wrote:
| I was underwater for 2 months on a nuclear submarine. Does that
| count?
| bambax wrote:
| Jacques Cousteau was a horrible person, both personally (bigot,
| anti-Semite, pathological liar) and professionally. It's
| inexplicable that he passes for a defender of nature when in
| reality he "explored" things by blowing them up with explosives
| and destroyed unique sites, etc.
|
| The grandson is a different person of course; but he invokes his
| grandfather's name as a reference and proof of competence. Don't
| fall for it.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| People want to see the world in black and white, and absolutes,
| today more than ever. It's fashionable to topple statues.
|
| But the reality is grey and whatever his flaws might have been
| he contributed a huge amount to diving technology, to make the
| public discover the marine environment, and for the protection
| of oceans.
| saint-loup wrote:
| Also:
|
| "Cousteau was a showman, nothing more - a man prepared to do
| anything to sell his films and books, even if it meant
| martyring animals."
|
| https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/117...
| flippinburgers wrote:
| Interestingly it is the writer of the article who wrote the
| headline!
|
| The grandson's NPO is named after himself.
|
| "The founder of the Fabien Cousteau Ocean Learning Center, a
| nonprofit dedicated to protecting and preserving the planet's
| oceans, coastal areas and marine habitats, is building the
| world's largest underwater research station."
|
| It would be one thing if people knew Jacques was a bigot and
| touted his science as being great because it promoted bigotry.
| I had no idea. But I do think of ocean conservation when I
| think of him and that is the truly important part.
|
| And, as you point out yourself, its the grandson. Sins of the
| grandfather?
| themaninthedark wrote:
| I wonder if we could get a number of people to destroy their
| Apple devices by pointing out the fact that Steve Job was an
| absolutely horrible person.
|
| Drove a car without plates so he could park in handicap spaces,
| Denied his daughter was his, etc.
|
| Apple was founded by Steve Jobs and the entire culture was
| dictated by him, it is inexcusable to say that Apple products
| are separate from that.
|
| Or we can say that unreasonable, and even bad people also have
| good points and that we want to try and take the good they have
| accomplished and build upon it. This does not mean we have to
| celebrate the person.
|
| Jacques Cousteau much like Steve Jobs did not develop many of
| the things we think about when their names are mentioned but
| they both worked to promote and popularize their fields.
| eplanit wrote:
| I think The Life Aquatic was an excellent parody of Cousteau
| (though it wasn't really about Cousteau). The character played
| by Bill Murray was probably more sympathetic than Jacques.
| dusted wrote:
| He may have been all that, but it's hardly relevant. What's
| relevant is whether he made a net positive or negative impact
| on the world with his actions.
|
| My guess is he made more kids (and adults) happy with his
| programs, than he made sad with his personality and opinions.
|
| Say I listen to a LGBTIOAQ+* muscian who hates straight people
| like myself (they exist), who is a feminist who hates men like
| myself, but I enjoy their music, their personality is
| definitely horrible to me, but I don't care because I love
| their music and I will listen just the same :)
| bambax wrote:
| Listening to Michael Jackson's songs is one thing. Saying he
| was a great human being and wanting to put things to his name
| is another.
|
| If you like Cousteau's movies, good for you. But invoking his
| name and making him a hero is, I think, wrong.
| dusted wrote:
| Nobody said he was a good person to begin with ? It's
| hardly relevant to the discussion.
|
| But the name is connected to the ocean and the grandson
| wanting to do somthing with the ocean, its not surprising
| that his name is invoked on that basis.
| henearkr wrote:
| He was a great oceanographer, engineer, filmmaker, and he
| opened the eyes of multiple generations on what lies in the
| oceans and how it's fragile and important to protect it.
| Isn't that worth a monument? He may have said/done/been bad
| things at the same time. Do we bury all bronze busts of
| Wagner?
| bambax wrote:
| He blew up coral reefs with dynamite!! By this measure,
| the Monkey Christ affair "opened the eyes of multiple
| generations" on the importance of religious paintings.
| henearkr wrote:
| I don't know what he wanted to achieve and what were his
| options at the time. Until I know that, I suspend my
| judgement.
|
| Anyway, he did not make disappear coral as a species, did
| he?
|
| Please do not confuse nature protection with
| sentimentalism. There are very serious environmentalist
| jobs whose description is "destroy all the cats on this
| island".
|
| Just to precise, there is none of this kind of cruelty in
| his films. What he transmitted to generations of children
| (and still does) is respect and fascination of nature in
| all its beauty and complexity.
|
| I don't know what you saw about sharks, but what I saw as
| a child was Cousteau's team filming sharks from inside
| special cages, and even outside the cages in the open,
| with special canes he designed to keep them at distance
| without killing them. If he ever had cruelty towards
| sharks, he had also compassion, and this is the
| compassion bit that reached me.
| eplanit wrote:
| Yup. That's how Cancel Culture works.
| bambax wrote:
| I don't care for Wagner's bust. I care for his music.
|
| Edit: Cousteau's _work_ is as bad as his character.
| henearkr wrote:
| Well, people building/buying Wagner's busts are some big
| fans of his music who want somehow to materialize their
| fandom.
|
| They certainly are not fans of his life, his life is
| extremely irrelevant, it may as well be totally
| forgotten, and it would not hurt.
|
| About your last edit: here I beg to disagree.
|
| I love his work as a filmmaker, it made me love the sea
| and nature in general and made me want to protect it.
| When I was a child he contributed to educate me and make
| me an environmentalist. On me at least, his work was
| tremendously successful.
|
| As an engineer, he created a lot of devices used today
| for diving. His boat Alcyone was even sporting
| revolutionary static turbosails.
| gregoriol wrote:
| Do you have sources for such accusations?
| bambax wrote:
| Plenty of sources (in French). For example:
|
| Anti-Semitism:
| https://www.lemonde.fr/archives/article/1999/06/18/la-
| plonge...
|
| Cousteau's first wife Simone was independently wealthy and
| financed his boat (Calypso) and expeditions. She lived on
| board most of the time (yet never appears on camera). But he
| had another secret family (with kids) on the shore with a
| former flight attendant, since the late 70s. Simone only
| learned about it in 1990. Letters were published where she
| asks a friend in disbelief if this can be true. She then died
| within a few months. Can't find the letters right now but I
| did read them then.
|
| Critique of "Le Monde du silence":
| https://www.rtl.fr/culture/medias-people/video-pourquoi-
| le-m...
|
| In that movie from 1956 which won the Cannes Film Festival
| Palme d'Or, the team blows a whole coral reef with dynamite
| in order to "count fish living in it". They also catch live
| sharks on board and kill them with shovels "because seamen
| don't like sharks".
|
| You can watch the documentary and see for yourself.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| Regarding bigotry and antisemitism, there are, of course,
| caveats in the article you link:
|
| _Interroge par Le Monde, Erik Orsenna confie : << C 'est
| evidemment une lettre ignoble. Mais j'ai peur que si l'on
| ouvre toute la correspondance des Francais de l'epoque, et
| si l'on ecoute l'enregistrement de leurs conversations, on
| decouvrirait beaucoup d'autre antisemitisme de cette sorte.
| Autrement, Petain n'aurait pu rencontrer en France un tel
| accord, et des horreurs comme les rafles de juillet 42,
| organisees par la police francaise, n'auraient pas pu se
| produire. A la difference de son frere, Pierre-Antoine,
| dirigeant de Je suis partout, ce que je dis dans mon
| discours, et a ma connaissance, Cousteau n'a jamais emis ce
| genre d'ignominie en public ni ne s'est engage dans aucune
| action antisemite. >>_
|
| Which is not to excuse anything, but it seems to me the
| majority of French society (indeed, European society) at
| the time held such views. Why single out Cousteau? And why
| do it in an article about a project undertaken by his
| _grandson_ , who is not himself, I believe, accused of
| holding any of those biggotted views? Kin punishment is no
| less a barbaric practice than antisemitism (and
| islamophobia, as per the article above).
|
| As henearkr says below, the rest of your comment is about
| Cousteau's personal life, which is neither here nor there.
| This is not the Daily Mail.
| mc32 wrote:
| Regarding his mistress and other family, at the time this
| wasn't a scandal for either elites or even common people.
| Having mistresses was then acceptable in France.
| Mitterrand was one such example, but of course there were
| many like him.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| is it not acceptable now?
| RandoHolmes wrote:
| Because it's the current fad to try and pull down famous
| people.
|
| In 80 years if you're famous people will be talking about
| how horrible you are as a person for being ok with the
| slaughtering of animals just to eat meat.
|
| It gets really fucking old.
| rsynnott wrote:
| While the majority of French people would probably have
| been somewhat anti-semitic, I'm not sure that it's fair
| to say that the majority of French people were hoping
| that the Nazis would get on with deporting the Jews,
| already. That letter really is pretty bad.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| The letter is prety bad, but my understanding is that
| until the atrocities committed by the Nazis forced the
| other Europeans to confront their antisemitism, such
| ideas were widespread in all European countries. [Edit:
| and of course, antisemitic ideas persist to this day.]
|
| Pretty much the same thing happens today with
| islamophobic ideas and with "the last racism", i.e.
| hatred towards Gypsies, Roma and Travellers, even though
| they were also subjected to genocide by the Nazis.
|
| Some people never learn- and Europeans, in particular,
| seem to have a particularly hard time to learn from our
| shared past of nationalism and racism and the brutalities
| committed because of them. In that, I'm speaking as a
| European, an EU citizen, a Greek citizen and someone very
| concerned about the waves of nationalism and racism that
| are still rising all around Europe. In my own country, it
| took cold-blooded murder for public opinion to face the
| fact that Xrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn) is a band of criminal
| thugs and stop voting those bastards to the Greek
| parliament (now they vote for their dregs). If we expect
| blood to be spilled before we understand where fascism
| leads us, we'll just keep destroying ourselves over and
| over. And I'm very afraid that we will do exactly that.
|
| But, again, this has nothing to do with the character of
| Fabien Cousteau, which to me is pretty clearly what the
| OP is trying to attack, through his association with his
| grandfather, a practice that I find as revolting as the
| ideas expressed by the grandfather in the letter
| discussed in Le Monde.
| rsynnott wrote:
| Yeah, I would agree that the whole thing is a bit of a
| side issue wrt the grandson.
| bambax wrote:
| Cousteau falsely claimed to have been a member of the
| Resistance when he was in fact protected by the occupying
| German army. His first film received a positive critique
| in his brother's newspaper Je suis partout in 1943, which
| launched his entire career. He later said the film only
| came out in 1946.
|
| The part about his personal life is to further
| substantiate the "liar" part. It's not just that he had a
| "mistress"; he had another family and hid it from his
| wife, whom he didn't divorce because he needed her money.
| She died of sorrow when she eventually found out. I think
| it tells something about his character.
|
| I'm getting downvoted heavily for all these comments, but
| I persist in thinking we should be more careful about the
| "heroes" we choose. This man is no hero. He's horrible.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| What "heroes"? Why do we care about Jacques-Yves
| Cousteau's character? We are commenting on an article
| about a project by Cousteau's grandson. Why does Jacques-
| Yves Cousteau's lying or antisemitism have anything to do
| with Fabien Cousteau's project?
|
| In any case, why do we need to judge anyone's character
| in a HN thread? What is this, inquisition by internet
| forum? That is just the worse, lowest form of internet
| activity and I'm really sorry to see it on HN. This is at
| the level of the darkest recesses of 4chan.
| secondcoming wrote:
| I think you'd be surprised at how much infidelity is a part
| of being French.
| Juliate wrote:
| Says who? You mean, "part of being human"?
| henearkr wrote:
| This is his private life. It has nothing to do with your
| allegations of "bigot", "liar", etc.
|
| If this is your references, you end up having denigrated
| him.
|
| About your allegation of J. Cousteau having protected
| marine life "by blowin' it", it is his work that has raised
| the current awareness of the richness and fragility of
| marine life. Compare his positive achievements at the scale
| of the whole planet (or at least Western world) versus some
| small part of a coral reef he blew up.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Apparently his biographer:
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jun/18/jonhenley1
| postsantum wrote:
| I was surprised too. The anti-semite part seems to be dubious
| at best - the only link I found is someone's very liberal
| interpretation of some words
| bambax wrote:
| In many letters written during WWII Cousteau wishes to get
| rid of "youtres" which is a derogatory word for Jews much
| worse than the N word in English.
|
| The defense of Commandant Cousteau's anti-Semite private
| writings usually goes along the lines of "okay, but
| everybody did the same at the time". But this is not true.
| Most people did not _actively_ call for the physical
| extermination of Jews in occupied France. They did nothing
| to prevent it -- but rejoicing and calling for more is on
| another level.
|
| His brother was a frequent contributor to "Je suis partout"
| during WWII and was sentenced to death for his writings at
| the end of the war (later commuted to life in prison).
|
| And yes, Cousteau is not his brother. Yet -- not a good
| family.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| So far you and others here have only shown one example of
| a letter where he is calling for jewish (and muslim)
| people to be kicked out. I have seen nothing about
| extermination etc.
|
| Even more so- what the hell is this "not a good family"
| business all about? Seriously? The _whole_ family?
| Because of one member? This is just mud-slinging.
| rsynnott wrote:
| Cousteau probably didn't realise _exactly_ what was
| likely to happen to Jewish people who were 'kicked out'
| to make room for important filmmakers; this was the year
| before the Wannsee Conference. But one would have had to
| be extremely naive to think that anything good was
| happening to the Jewish populations the Nazis were then
| deporting across their empire.
| bambax wrote:
| By "family" I meant Cousteau's family during the war, not
| all his descendants of course. Sorry if that was unclear.
|
| But he was a Nazi sympathizer and was protected by the
| Germans during the war. Then he falsely claimed to have
| been a member of the Resistance. This is all documented
| in his biography.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| Once more, I have to ask you, if you do not mean to
| implicate Cousteau's entire family, all the way up to his
| great-great grandchildren, for Cousteau's antisemitism,
| then why are you bringing his antisemitism up in a
| discussion about his grandson?
|
| Why is what you are doing here any different than
| reminding everyone of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis
| everytime someone talks about modern Germany, or Angela
| Merkel?
| shakna wrote:
| It doesn't take much to find it. Here's a quote from the
| man himself:
|
| > Ici, nous n'avons toujours pas de logement. Nous sommes
| actuellement campes dans un petit pavillon d'une pension de
| famille sur la Corniche. Ce n'est pas gai pour Simone, mais
| il n'y aura d'appartement convenable que quand on aura
| fichu a la porte tous les ignobles youtres qui nous
| encombrent. [0]
|
| A rough translation of the last sentence might be:
|
| > It's not cheerful for Simone, but there won't be a
| suitable apartment until we have kicked out all the vile
| youtres [slur for Jew] that plague us.
|
| But, to be more charitable to the man, it was a time where
| anti-semitism was wide spread, and doesn't seem to be more
| than the norm of the time. But it isn't really ambiguous.
|
| [0] https://www.lemonde.fr/archives/article/1999/06/18/la-
| plonge...
| rsynnott wrote:
| This is actually arguably _worse_ than it seems, when you
| put it in context. He wrote this is May 1941, in Vichy
| France. In 1942, Vichy France started 'kicking out' its
| Jewish population to occupied France, and thence to the
| concentration camps. Maybe Cousteau got his apartment
| after all...
| usrusr wrote:
| Also surprised. I was taking the dark sides of the Steven
| Zissou character in Anderson's The Life Aquatic as an added
| twist, not as art imitating life.
| lm28469 wrote:
| https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https.
| ..
|
| Dozens of other articles
| system2 wrote:
| I totally wasn't expecting this comment. First time hearing it,
| can you share some links?
| xsace wrote:
| Most people don't know this truth, in particular here in France
| where the name Cousteau still holds its aura.
|
| I know because I watched and enjoyed the shows as a kid and
| most people at the time liked him. The only person I knew back
| then who didn't like the man was my dad (a sailor).
|
| What I mean is the name is still strong enough to attract some
| interest.
| hobbescotch wrote:
| Was this not the premise of the Life Aquatic by Wes Anderson?
| Essentially we are shown a satirical representation of Jacques
| Cousteau where Zissou (the Cousteau-type) wants to blow up a
| shark and fakes discoveries of obviously made up sea creatures.
| raxxorrax wrote:
| One of my favorite movies, really a piece of art if you like
| the humor. But I didn't actually notice the reference
| although it is really obvious thinking about it. Even the red
| cap.
| usrusr wrote:
| But did he also have a real life Seu Jorge who could only
| play Bowie? Those scenes are when it hits me hardest: all
| the characters are lost, somehow bound to Zisou with no
| outside life that they could defect to, but the environment
| they are trapped in is one of extreme beauty.
| yodsanklai wrote:
| I don't know to what extent this is true (heard similar claims
| before but never checked), but you should provide some sources
| when making such strong allegations.
| mongol wrote:
| At least the blowing up parts of nature with explosives was
| prominently featured in one of his films. Also the killing of
| "vicious sharks".
| victornomad wrote:
| When I was a kid I used to watch a TV series called SeaQuest.
| Pretty much the same idea, isnt it? :)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQNXOscKEhY
| dghughes wrote:
| Same here and it was fairly complex in its geopolitical views.
| It wasn't just fish and bikinis.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| There it is! I immediately thought of this.
| spiritplumber wrote:
| So, some kind of sea lab, in 2021?
|
| (Pod six are jerks)
| fiftyacorn wrote:
| It will be like the octonauts
| nirav72 wrote:
| I'm really surprised something like this hasn't been done yet.
| fortran77 wrote:
| Does he have a name?
|
| (I was raked over the coals a few months ago for describing a
| person as "Jeff Bezo's ex-wife. I want to make sure we hold all
| these cases to the same rule.)
| papito wrote:
| Somewhat played a bit too much of Subnautica.
| tomphoolery wrote:
| Please call it Sealab 2021.
| robotnikman wrote:
| Or Rapture
| juststeve wrote:
| We're in a pandemic, seriously, why not?
| tiku wrote:
| At least it's already isolated..
| [deleted]
| Cantbekhan wrote:
| Discussed 26 days ago
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23985772
| [deleted]
| vaidhy wrote:
| There are a lot of reasons for having a stationary lab under sea
| - I have seen a lot of experiments for acceleration of coral
| growth, bringing corals back to life etc that need long term
| study and sustained help. However, I am a bit confused as to why
| this project needs an expensive building as opposed to something
| like a submarine shell with living quarters (and a moon pool, of
| course).
| dheera wrote:
| Better quality of life? I've seen those submarine tours on
| Youtube and they look cool initially but I could imagine it
| could get old pretty quickly eating freeze-dried rations and
| living in such a small space with no homey human elements to
| its design. Even the Antarctic bases have mini-libraries, and
| ping pong tables and whatnot that look like they would be much
| nicer to spend an extended period of time.
|
| Humans weren't meant to be cooped up in a vessel. In space we
| don't really have the tech to build something bigger but I
| imagine in the ocean we could do it if we wanted to.
| rshnotsecure wrote:
| Jacques Cousteau, and really many prominent oceanographers /
| explorers (Ballard, who discovered the Titanic, comes to mind)
| have a background in espionage. Getting a large international
| joint effort off the ground coming from that field...can be
| difficult.
|
| Recently Alexandra Cousteau, the grand-daughter of Jacques, had
| her name surface in regards to Epstein and whatever operation he
| was running.
| 9nGQluzmnq3M wrote:
| I know these sound like conspiracy theories, but Ballard _was_
| actually on a secret US Navy mission to find some subs when he
| accidentally stumbled on the Titanic:
|
| https://www.wearethemighty.com/titanic-discovered-top-secret...
|
| And the Glomar Explorer was an actual CIA operation:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomar_Explorer
|
| ...but dragging Epstein into this? Really?
| lisper wrote:
| Just in case anyone here is considering donating to this project,
| do your due diligence. There is quite a bit of behind-the-scenes
| drama in the Cousteau family, which is why both Jacques's son,
| Jean-Michelle, and his grandson, Fabien, each have their own
| 501(c)(3) separate from the Cousteau society. JM has
| http://www.oceanfutures.org/ and Fabien has
| https://www.fabiencousteauolc.org/. According to JM, he broke
| away because the Cousteau society had been taken over and
| corrupted by one of Jacques's ex-wives. I never verified this,
| but it is consistent with Charity Navigator's one-star rating
| [1]. We used to be major supporters of Ocean Futures, but they
| too seem to have become dysfunctional. Neither JM's nor Fabien's
| organization even merits a rating on CN. It's kinda sad actually.
|
| [1]
| https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summar...
| [deleted]
| sandworm101 wrote:
| So they want to create a multi-story structure anchored at "60
| feet"? Is that 60 to the bottom? 60 feet to the top of the
| structure? 60 feet to the moonpool? That thing looks 80 feet
| tall.
|
| Fyi, moonpools are cool. They create all sorts of interesting
| practical physics problems. Take the one in the artist rendering.
| Say it is at 60 feet. What is the pressure depth of the rooms on
| the second floor, say 15 feet above the moon pool? What about the
| rooms below? If I poke a hole in a room _below_ the moonpool
| room, does water come in or air leak out?
|
| By having a moonpool, the entire structure has to be kept at the
| pressure/depth of the water at the moonpool. So rooms above are
| at higher pressure than the water immediately outside, while
| rooms below are at lower pressure. The simple act of having that
| open pool creates very interesting structural design issues.
| keithwhor wrote:
| Aren't all of these problems solved by just having the moonpool
| room airlocked?
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Airlocks are actually rather dangerous. Things can go wrong
| very quickly. An accidental rapid/unplanned decompression,
| even only across a few feet of pressure, can do real damage.
| Then there are the issues building the doors, which hold
| enough force that should they pop open they could kill. The
| biggest advantage of the moonpool approach is having the
| entire complex at the same pressure, with the pool acting as
| a passive safety valve against wild pressure fluctuations.
| gnu8 wrote:
| My first thought was there could be an airlock separating the
| moonpool room from the rest of the structure. But putting the
| people through compression/decompression cycles would seem to
| defeat one of the benefits of having a habitat down there to
| begin with. Also, if the internal pressure was kept down to one
| atmosphere, how strong would the structure need to be to avoid
| being crushed like a soda can?
| shmerl wrote:
| Reminds me of Aquanox :)
| tommilukkarinen wrote:
| If I build underwater real-estate, there are no laws governing
| it? There probably aren't laws anywhere in the world about it?
| Probably I can still be harassed if it's in national waters. But
| if it's in international waters? Nuclear reactor test site?
| RugnirViking wrote:
| There are plenty of laws (in this case, more like 'treaties')
| regarding international waters and use thereof. You can't do
| whatever you like, you certainly can't avoid all laws there.
| Usually you will have to flag your structure as being part of a
| nation and then follow their laws while onboard.
| xwdv wrote:
| If they do it I I hope they use low-iron glass to mitigate that
| greenish tint you get from looking through normal shitty glass.
| noetic_techy wrote:
| Can I ask the obvious question? What good is a stationary lab in
| one spot in the ocean? Didn't we do plenty of that in the 70's?
|
| If you really want something interesting, build a sub that can
| park itself in stationary locations or some sort of crawler lab
| with legs that do minimal impact on the floor and have the
| ability to reach the deepest parts such as the Mariana Trench.
| The ocean is huge and parking in one spot seems ridiculous.
| cbsks wrote:
| Some science experiments require visiting the same patch of
| ocean repeatedly. Having access from an underwater lab means
| that scientists can spend more time doing science and less time
| traveling to/from the site and decompressing.
|
| My uncle is a marine biologist and spent time living in an
| underwater lab in Florida. Aside from all the diving he was
| able to do, he said it smelled like a high school locker room
| and everything was damp inside.
| JshWright wrote:
| On the plus side, you don't have to worry about your soda
| fizzing over...
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJiUWBiM8HE
| ceejayoz wrote:
| A YouTube video that jumps right in to the main point and
| doesn't have any "don't forget to subscribe!" stuff in it
| is kinda jarring in 2020.
| falseprofit wrote:
| way to paraphrase the top comment on the video
| ceejayoz wrote:
| I have YouTube comments disabled. Everyone should.
| robotnikman wrote:
| IIRC navy subs are capable of parking on the seabed, though
| they definitely cant reach as deep as the mariana trench.
| joshuaheard wrote:
| Good point. If we want to start farming the ocean, an open
| ocean habitat would be more useful. Especially if it were 60
| feet below the surface to avoid weather conditions.
| krick wrote:
| Not sure how much of a news story it is. I also want to build the
| ISS of the sea, I always did. Now, I don't have a famous granddad
| with whom I share my last name, but even if I did it's not like
| it's enough to build ISS of the sea.
|
| The article is written in a very dreamy tone and contains very
| little substantial information. It firmly assures that "Proteus
| will be" such and such, as if they are making the finishing
| touches already, yet "Proteus is still in the concept phase".
| "Fabien is raising $135 million" (which, TBH, seems quite a
| conservative estimate for this project on the one hand, and on
| the other is a pretty huge investment for something that doesn't
| have any ROI projections attached), but there's no discussion
| about what else except for his surname this Fabien guy actually
| has to have any chances to succeed.
|
| So, yeah, I would prefer if journalist learned to provide
| something more factual and informative in their stories, instead
| of telling me how cool deep-sea exploration is. I know it's cool,
| alright? I don't know if a project like that can actually happen
| in the observable future.
| sradman wrote:
| > I would prefer if journalist learned to provide something
| more factual and informative in their stories
|
| It is deeper than that (no pun intended); many journalists seem
| to be lacking the critical thinking skills required to judge
| whether a story passes a basic sniff test when it comes to
| science and technology.
|
| The Proteus project is not the ISS of the Sea, it is a vanity
| project. Clickbait from cnet is par for the course but I guess
| I expect more from a publication with "Smithsonian" on the
| masthead.
|
| The previous HN thread _Proteus: Underwater research lab worthy
| of a Bond villain_ [1] points out that this is not just a
| questionable idea but a really bad one.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23985772
| robomartin wrote:
| At some level I think we should stop calling it "journalism".
| The state of journalism in general is pretty sad, not just
| with regards to science and technology.
|
| The amount of effort required to get down to actual
| information after reading most stories (about anything) is
| not trivial. In other words, they are now in the mode of
| writing click-bait pieces for traffic and letting interested
| readers to the work real journalists used to do in order to
| produce substantive material.
|
| The simplest example of this are very short articles with an
| enticing subject line and lots of ads on the page. After
| reading such articles (and feeling cheated) you immediately
| go to Goggle and have to track down such things as the
| company URL, research papers, historical context, current
| state of the art, supporting
| documentation/legislation/whatever, and then apply some
| critical thinking. Yeah, what we have today, at many levels
| and kinds of organizations, is far from what I would call
| "journalism".
| libraryatnight wrote:
| and what little journalism is presented is drowned in a sea
| of opinion pieces trying to tell me how angry or scared I
| should be.
| hinkley wrote:
| Easy publishing has removed a few kinds of signaling that
| we used to have.
|
| An article in the Wall Street Journal (chosen at random
| to have a proper noun) had a different gravitas than the
| hand-stapled 15 lb paper booklet the scruffy guy shoved
| at you in front of the market. Now the scruffy guy got
| shave and a haircut, has access to equipment that is
| almost but not quite as good, and the "WSJs" have reacted
| by engaging in a race to the bottom - more ads, less
| attention to detail. The signalling is gone.
| robomartin wrote:
| A 12 year old has the same reach and visibility as a real
| journalist. Normally this would be a good thing. The
| problem is that the audience has no way to discriminate
| across almost any intellectual plane.
|
| I have seen this happen in local Facebook groups. I
| remember an instance where a dreadful, spiteful, verbally
| violent exchange of hundreds of posts was triggered by
| this community member starting a thread. Neighbors saying
| the ugliest things imaginable to each other. It was truly
| sad to witness.
|
| Nobody bothered to see who started the thread.
|
| It was someone who had just finished high school. In
| other words, a 17 to 18 year old, maybe a bit older.
|
| The subject isn't important, what is important is that
| someone with exactly zero life experience, zero
| responsibility for herself or others, decided she could
| actually post one of the most ridiculous thoughts on a
| subject she could not possibly comprehend for many years.
|
| People got launched into the most vile verbal battle I've
| seen in a long time because nobody took a moment to
| consider the source. Had this comment been offered in
| person, in the context of a town hall meeting, she likely
| would have been told to please sit down, listen, learn
| and come back once she had a kid or two, a mortgage, a
| job and the realities that come with adult life.
|
| The internet has allowed this kind of thing to happen. It
| isn't about age, it's about a range of variables that
| used to create categories of trust. You had to earn this
| ranking over time in order to have reach. Today no such
| thing exists. Google, YouTube, FB, Twitter, TikTok and
| others will gladly hand you an audience of billions of
| people, truth and other standards of quality, in this
| context, are meaningless.
| hinkley wrote:
| I wonder if journalists are no longer getting the same on-
| the-job training they got with print magazines? Maybe the
| cycles are too quick, it's too easy to convince yourself that
| you can fix a mistake post-publication, and you don't
| interact with as many experienced coworkers throughout the
| process.
|
| Are we the baddies?
| [deleted]
| reaperducer wrote:
| _I wonder if journalists are no longer getting the same on-
| the-job training they got with print magazines?_
|
| They don't, but the roots run deeper than that.
|
| College journalism departments used to stand on their own,
| or be part of a Communications department. Now, a lot of
| them are part of marketing departments because that's where
| the donor money is.
|
| For example, one of the "Big J" journalism schools used to
| be Medill at Northwestern University. A decade or so ago it
| changed to become the "Medill School of Journalism, Media,
| Integrated Marketing Communications."
|
| I used to mentor interns from that school. The first few
| years after the switch we started getting students who
| didn't know the first thing about journalism. They were
| being taught how to edit videos for YouTube, not how to
| find out how a congressman voted on a particular topic. We
| had students about to graduate who didn't know important
| recent historical figures. Couldn't tell you what party any
| president belonged to earlier the current one, and his
| predecessor.
|
| It goes along with a long-running theme on HN: That
| universities are no longer about education. They're only in
| it for the big money now.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| The internet destroyed the economics of journalism, without
| cash, where are the resources to hire?
| [deleted]
| d3ntb3ev1l wrote:
| Just because you only know his last name, but not Fabien's
| actual research work, background and experience doesn't
| preclude that he is highly qualified to run and make use of
| this project. Regardless of his last name.
|
| to you he is just "this Fabien guy" because you are uninformed
| of his qualifications. But blame the journalist, or blame the
| article for not providing that context, or blame Fabien for his
| last name, or maybe do a little googling before discounting the
| person and blame yourself
| hinkley wrote:
| If I am an expert in my field planning to volunteer or stake
| the next five years of my career on a slightly crazy idea, I
| could do worse than attach myself to a project headed by
| someone who already has their foot in the door with a lot of
| people who can get us financing or legislative help.
|
| And don't most investors want some solidarity with their
| fellow investors? Brand recognition is a built-in safety
| feature that might help protect my money.
| tudorw wrote:
| In a world where a kpop band can get 150 million views in 24
| hours I'd say visionary projects like this are a welcome
| addition to the internet.
| jacobush wrote:
| Some of these Kpop bands do the Lords work in keeping
| democracy alive, so there's that.
| hobofan wrote:
| Their fandoms of organized young people do. The bands
| contribute shockingly little to that.
| scbrg wrote:
| Would someone please explain what this is about? How are
| kpop bands (or their audience) "keeping democracy alive"?
|
| Genuine question, there's obviously something I've
| missed.
| NewOrderNow wrote:
| If you consider Twitter to be a place to allow all voices
| (which it isn't) this act by kpop fans should be
| considered silencing voices
| hobofan wrote:
| A lot of KPop fans are very organized on social media
| (mostly Twitter/Tiktok/Instagram) and know all the best
| tricks for them, which they usually use to push their
| favorite bands. At the same time it also gives them a lot
| of power whenever social issues are discussed on those
| platforms.
|
| Recently, they've been involved with BLM in various
| forms[0] and orchestrated the "million ticket" Trump
| rally prank[1], so very direct involvement in politics.
| Whether that is "keeping democracy alive" is probably up
| for personal interpretation, but in general there seems
| to be at least a high interest in political
| participation.
|
| In contrast to their fanbases, KPop artists are pretty
| absent from those political debates (which isn't uncommon
| for mainstream media stars), and don't speak out about
| political issues in fear they might turn away a portion
| of their fans.
|
| [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52996705
|
| [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-
| trump-rally-...
| scbrg wrote:
| I see. Thank you for the explanation!
| oh_sigh wrote:
| "Keeping Democracy alive"...by preventing voters from
| attending an event by certain politicians.
| matthewheath wrote:
| Kpop fans are active on Twitter and have flooded right-
| wing and pro-police hashtags with content designed to
| drown-out "racist" messages.
|
| The Verge covered it back in June:
| https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/3/21278950/k-pop-stans-
| socia...
| colechristensen wrote:
| Lots of things succeed with very shallow major drivers, like a
| name.
|
| "Cousteau's grandson", just that phrase, will grab attention
| around the world from people who never once saw the
| grandfather's face.
| jacobwilliamroy wrote:
| Well youre just some john doe. Even if I had the funding, I
| still would try to rope in either fabien or jean-michel just
| for the name recognition alone. Money would be more easily
| available with such people aboard the project, and (as long as
| we're smart and courageous) more money will just make things
| run smoother. So I would put Fabien out in the papers,
| smithsonian magazine, wherever our pr specialists think would
| have greatest fund raising impact.
|
| Now "would I?" is a whole other question. Human missions are
| kind of old school now that we have fully autonomous devices
| such as the surf glider, underwater gliders, animal-tag based
| telemetry, multiple global satellite internet networks. If I
| was collaborating with Fabien, I would put that name to use
| raising money for something a little more modern, such as
| autonomous monitoring of military hydrophone arrays,
| measurement of radiation around nuclear sub pens, locating and
| monitoring the 60+ beluga whales just recently released from
| the russian whale jail.
| nicholassmith wrote:
| > "Fabien is raising $135 million" (which, TBH, seems quite a
| conservative estimate for this project on the one hand, and on
| the other is a pretty huge investment for something that
| doesn't have any ROI projections attached)
|
| Juicero raised $113M, anything is possible if you get the right
| people on-board (no pun intended). I agree it seems incredibly
| conservative for a large scale engineering project though.
| cookingrobot wrote:
| But that was a company selling a spectacularly expensive
| beverage subscription service. There was at least a business
| plan behind that.
| barbecue_sauce wrote:
| Is it supposed to be a business? As far as I know, the ISS
| has no truly quantifiable ROI or business plan, either.
| NortySpock wrote:
| The orbiting ISS or at least the US segment of it, was
| designated a US National Lab in 2005.
|
| A few companies have research or commercial projects,
| including Made In Space's work on ZBLAN ultra-clear
| optical fiber https://madeinspace.us/capabilities-and-
| technology/fiber-opt...
|
| And Budweiser (a American beer subsidiary) has sent four
| experiments to the ISS on barley germination and malting
| https://www.issnationallab.org/blog/budweisers-fourth-
| invest...
|
| While it's not turning a profit (ISS running costs are
| ~$3B/year) it is researching American space technology
| and agriculture for us down here on Earth.
|
| https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/nlab/
| ind...
| i_am_proteus wrote:
| I'm not sure I understand the point of this exercise. If it's
| being built in reasonably shallow water, why not just have the
| structure be mostly above-water, with sensors underwater and
| apparatus for divers and remotely-operated vehicles?
|
| Decent choice of name, of course.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "I don't know if a project like that can actually happen in the
| observable future."
|
| Why not give him a try raising enough money to accomplish it?
|
| In todays time anything can go viral quickly.
|
| Maybe it will be only enough for a small, limited one?
|
| Maybe only design work?
|
| If you support maritime exploration, why not out of general
| principle also this? Maybe it goes off. In the context of
| saving the oceans and climate change, I think it is possible,
| but I also don't know more facts than the article that just
| described the dream.
|
| But I am not aware of a project with better planning where this
| could draw ressources from. So, why criticize it to the ground
| from the start?
|
| Because it is not your project? Well, this one at least has
| news article coverage and HN front page. I would call it a good
| start.
| Shivetya wrote:
| Heck, let him go to #kickstarter for it and sell everything
| from souvenirs to actual trips to the facility. his customers
| can include full on science groups to everyday citizens with
| obvious disclaimers you have to meet specific medical
| requirements.
| RugnirViking wrote:
| The scale of fundraising on Kickstarter is not even close
| to the scale of funding a project like this requires. The
| largest Kickstarters in history (which this would not be)
| are in the realm of $20 million.
|
| This project will need $135 million, and it's not clear
| even that will be enough, but my guess is no. For
| reference, estimates put the actual ISS cost around 150 000
| million (150 billion)
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Star Citizen raised 300$ million in crowdfunding.
|
| Sure, you probably will not get to that level for a
| science project - but at least some extra money would be
| good.
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