[HN Gopher] Attention is your scarcest resource ___________________________________________________________________ Attention is your scarcest resource Author : adambyrtek Score : 358 points Date : 2020-09-06 14:46 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.benkuhn.net) (TXT) w3m dump (www.benkuhn.net) | elxavit0 wrote: | a key insight for me in this article is this one: "In order for | bullshit not to distract me for the rest of the week, I try to | minimize my number of "open loops"--projects or processes that | I've started but not completed." | | I hadn't realized that I probably keep way too many "open-loops" | in my life. And they are draining away my attention-currency. | sova wrote: | "everything is downstream from controlling attention" - Joscha | Bach on the Lex AI podcast | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-2P3MSZrBM&t=3s | biddit wrote: | That's an amazing observation. Can you point to roughly where | in the video he says this? Thanks! | heed wrote: | It's about here (2:03:40): | https://youtu.be/P-2P3MSZrBM?t=7420 | sova wrote: | 2:03:00 begins a discussion on meditation and at 2:03:45 he | says "everything is downstream from controlling attention" -- | toward the end of the segment labeled "AI simulating humans | to understand its own nature" | [deleted] | einpoklum wrote: | Ah, the irony of saying this to people like us, wasting our | attention like there's no tomorrow on the odd news story on HN | :-) | crehn wrote: | What is it about HN that makes it feel much more productive | than other similar sites? | hinkley wrote: | Lower troll ratio perhaps? | einpoklum wrote: | Perhaps: More intelligent and engaging trolls? :-) | inetsee wrote: | The promise of "The Silver Bullet". You'll find an article | that will tell you how to be more creative, more productive, | happier. You'll create the next unicorn business, get filthy, | stinking rich, and have everyone wanting to be your friend. | | Of course, your best bet for achieving these goals would be | to spend less time reading HN and more time actually "Doing | the Work". | nullsense wrote: | I found a silver bullet here once. Read an article about | The DAO and smart contracts. Led to making 100k. | | You're so right though. It is the allure of potentially | finding a silver bullet. Combined with the great community | and thoughtful discussions. | kempbellt wrote: | An ironic post indeed. There's a valuable message here: Give me | your attention for a moment so I can teach you to protect your | attention. | | Like a move baddie saying, "Trust me when I tell you: Don't | trust anyone" <- this the bad guy right here. You don't need to | watch the rest of the movie. | | TLDR: If you value your attention and want to respect the | intention of the article, don't read it ;) | asimovfan wrote: | What is mindfulness (smrti)? It is non-forgetting by the mind | (cetas) with regard to the object experienced. Its function is | non-distraction. | | - Asanga, from Abhidharmasamuccaya | taway738039 wrote: | the article does mention "TIMEBOX BULLSHIT"; anyone has had | success with that, or has tips for the same? the reason I'm | asking is, I've tried in the past at the cost of not looking at | "bullshit", but it just keeps getting piled up to a point where | people start making mountains out of molehills. | vinceguidry wrote: | Time boxing is when you spend X amount of time to either get it | done or get it off your plate. If it's piling up, then you're | not really time boxing. Push back on whoever wants you to do it | if it's really bullshit or hand it to a report or coworker if | you still have to do it. | | If you can't do either then you have to treat it like a | priority and not something that can be time boxed. | kirillzubovsky wrote: | Opened this in my 64th browser tab. | kilroy123 wrote: | I have ~150 open. | awinter-py wrote: | switch to chromium in ubuntu snap -- crashes at ~ 30 | nullsense wrote: | My brain has too many tabs open. | maitredusoi wrote: | I have 500 opened(and some never closed since 2 years ...) | ineedasername wrote: | I'd say it's time, not attention that is most scarce, but they | are highly correlated so I suppose attention is a reasonable | proxy for time. | hooch wrote: | Time cannot be controlled. Attention, however? | [deleted] | chrisweekly wrote: | cool blog; author Ben Kuhn founded the Harvard Effective Altruism | group, and wrote an amusing bit about "giving games"... etc | hh3k0 wrote: | > It took a while for me to train my friends not to instant | message me [...] | | Ha. I hope said friends are not reading his blog. | ehnto wrote: | I feel like it's the wrong approach anyway. Just keep the | instant messages on silent, and check them when you have some | personal time. Training people to never message you is a good | way to lose some of the spontaneity of friendship. | | I say that as a massive luddite in this regard, I hate always- | on culture. But I learned you have to make some concessions, | because your friends will use what's convenient to them and the | harder you make it the easier you disconnect them from you. | Real friendships aren't built in a day, and you'll be stifling | every relationship you try to build if you don't meet them | half-way. | aquajet wrote: | Attention is all you need | JimboOmega wrote: | (*: For clarity - EM = Engineering Manager, IC = Individual | Contributor) | | I recently transferred to a team with an explicit intent for me | to be an EM on that team. A few months down the road they said I | wasn't meeting expectations because of my "time management" which | had too many meetings and lacked focus time for IC work - which | definitely was not my 50%+ focus. I'm "winning" the resulting | political war (my last 1:1 left my lead in tears), but only in | the limited sense that I'm not getting fired; it's been a bit of | a disaster for everyone. | | The unclear expectations of what gets someone an EM role and what | is expected of that role is the root of my problem, some of the | author's, and a lot of the industry's as a whole. | | Leaders are picked from those that are truly focused on tech and | truly excel at it... and then told not to do that. How can | somebody be "intuitively, emotionally invested in the outcome" of | tech work and then suddenly be expected to stop doing it? | | I should have been that rare counter-example in that I got picked | for this role because of my very visible leadership in other | areas. However, when it came time to give me the position | formally they fell back on code output and found it somewhat | lacking (specifically, the number of commits I made while | onboarding was less than those of my established teammates). | | There's a school of thought that switching back and forth between | IC and EM tracks lets you build a lot of knowledge and be both | better manager and IC (the author evidently did). While I do | think experience with each helps you do the other, there is a | cost to that focus shifting. This isn't like the cost of only | being able to code in 45 minute blocks. It's the cost of shifting | the things you care most about entirely. | | Most managers fail to ever make that shift. Even if they manage | to hold themselves back from coding (not all do), their heads | remain in the code. One sign is when, in response to impossible | expectations from above, they try to come up with technical | solutions (e.g., if only we redesigned this module we could meet | these impossible deadlines). If your mind is focused on tech, | it's the tool you use to solve every problem. Another example is | when team members have no idea how to move their careers forward | and don't know expectations. A tech focused lead won't be | thinking about how a new project is actually the perfect | challenge for a more junior employee; their head will be figuring | out the best way to solve the task technically. | | An EM is not a tech lead. It's not just a different skillset, but | a mindset change. | hinkley wrote: | I'm going to see how far I can get never trying to get promoted | above lead developer. Or more to the point, trying not to get | promoted above lead developer. | | Sounds like some of your coworkers thought an EM role was [a | lead developer], which it is not. As a manager, being an IC | leads to a bunch of structural problems with the code and | therefore the team. | JimboOmega wrote: | This is another big part of the problem. While at my current | company management is a separate track on paper, many still | view it as a promotion (including my lead). But if that's not | the "promotion" you give them, what is it? | | Even if you make it a separate track, it's hard to define | what the promotion looks like for more senior engineers, | especially at successful companies. When you have $2M of cash | in the bank thanks to stock, does a 10% pay bump from senior | to staff matter? Does the title bump matter? How can you | reward a long-standing successful senior engineer in a way | that seems meaningful? | | This isn't a question I have an answer to, but "make them a | manager" is definitely the wrong one. The majority of my | managers have told me how jealous they are that I get to code | all day. More than one has told me straight up they do not | want to manage. I've watched several teams implode under | managers like that. | | I think it's completely valid to not want to manage. | Hopefully your lead doesn't pressure you to take such a role | in the future. But have you thought about what success would | look like in your career otherwise? | | It is also valid to not be particularly ambitious, to enjoy | the craft of software engineering until you retire, and spend | the mental energy you would spend on getting promoted on | hobbies, family, advocacy, or whatever else brings value to | your life... though it can be hard for those of us who are | more ambitious to realize that. | hinkley wrote: | I didn't figure out the public school system until the | middle of third grade. By then the era of gold stars had | passed me by, so any motivation I found was going to have | to be intrinsic, not public accolades. | | I had a boss who was being weird about making me a lead for | the first time. I needed him to make it official, not fret | the title. I told him I didn't care what he called me as | long as people did what I asked them to do. | | If you want to stay an IC, I can not recommend loudly | enough that you learn to manage your finances and your | consumption. Managing your "needs" makes your savings last | longer. Getting a raise just lets you build your savings | faster, which might not be the same (especially since your | needs will be inflation adjusted but your savings will | not). | | It's harder to maintain the courage of your convictions | when you are in debt than when you are doing okay. | | If someone makes you work for a promotion, they are | manipulating you. That could be good (in a mentor) or bad | (in a labor exploiter). But you are being manipulated, and | it's better if it's really your choice, not your mortgage | or your kids' braces. | JimboOmega wrote: | I am financially comfortable (though not at 'fuck you | money'), but also, personally, really want to be an EM. | My passion has been people, process, and management for a | decade or more at this point (I had my first tech | internship 20 years ago, and have been full time in the | industry for 15). | | I initially didn't care about titles, but they do | constrain what work you can do. The reality is that if | your title is one of an individual contributor, even if | you lead culture change at the company level, they will | always look for the code. If they don't find it, you will | be in trouble. | | One thing I have learned over the last year of my life is | that being "Shadow lead" - the one actually pulling the | strings and making things happen, with no formal | title/recognition - is the worst spot to be in. The work | you are doing doesn't match what you should be doing on | paper, so you are very vulnerable if somebody decides to | take a closer look. | | It's "glue work" but on a larger scale. It's important, | but will go unrecognized. It's emotionally exhausting to | build a team and get a head pat and told someone else | will lead that now, thanks, and by the way how much code | did you write recently? | | Though I do wonder what you mean by "official" but | without the title. It might be the case that "everybody | knows" what you do, but if your lead is replaced or just | changes their attitude, suddenly your IC work is under | the microscope, and could be found lacking. | hu3 wrote: | What's EM and IC? | JimboOmega wrote: | Engineering Manager / Individual Contributor. | [deleted] | binbag wrote: | Quick, someone post this article to LinkedIn. | [deleted] | 50 wrote: | From Rebecca Rozelle-Stone's _Simone Weil and Theology_ : "For | Weil, attention is the decreative release of self to receive the | world in all its reality. Paradoxically, this (passive) letting | go of self and accompanying control is simultaneously a | "creative" action: attention sees what is invisible (as the good | samaritan saw the bleeding, anonymous, dirty man in the ditch) | and hears what has been deprived of a voice because the din and | smog generated from our maintenance of control has finally | cleared." | unsatchmo wrote: | 50% of your time and energy seems like an impossible bar. At 16 | waking hours, we are talking about 8 hours spent entirely on | focusing on some task. That's like the hyper optimistic | assumptions of time spent that lead to bad estimates in software. | I would say even the 10x engineers I met only focused for 5-6 | hours a day max, so 30% focus. | burlesona wrote: | I think the most salient point of this blog is pretty much buried | as the closing thought. It's pretty hard to be a good engineering | manager when you also have programming responsibilities (IC | work). Sure, you can debate about what the different hacks are to | try and work around this and do a good job in spite of the | difficulty, but it's a lot easier to just go full-time managing. | | In my experience it takes six or more people to fully occupy a | manager. Ten seems to be about perfect. You can go higher than | that (and many do) but at a certain point you're not evenly | investing in all your people anymore, you're mostly focusing on a | few at a time. | | Obviously the hardest part of this is if you don't have 6+ people | to manage. My answer to very small teams is not to have a manager | at all, just have a technical lead and trust that a group of 1-5 | people can work out their own crap. | [deleted] | amelius wrote: | > In my experience it takes six or more people to fully occupy | a manager. Ten seems to be about perfect. | | Aha, so it takes one full-time manager to manage one 10x | programmer ... | alexchamberlain wrote: | Is that a team of 10 without the communication overhead? | | In all seriousness, is it time to get rid of the 10x meme? | People have strengths and weaknesses; people have areas | they've experienced before and things they've never done. | Some people are going to work faster than other people on | certain tasks - that's life. | harryf wrote: | 10 is already too many. 8 is the limit before you get | diseconomies of scale. This was already well described over | 40 years ago in the mythical man month | https://torchbox.com/blog/40-year-old-lessons-and- | mythical-m... ... there's also a ton of writing on ideal | Marine squad size that tells the same story | cschep wrote: | Is it time? Absolutely, yes. Will it die? Unfortunately, | never. | techbio wrote: | There are still plenty of places with 1/10X programmers. | aynsof wrote: | I've worked with at least three people who were -x | programmers. That is, they produced negative value to the | organisation. | | They did this by breaking systems (DNS, build pipelines, | etc), producing code so bad that it had to be rewritten | from scratch, and distracting everyone on the team | through drama. | | They also did it through endless requests for help - not | the kind where they learn from it, though. The kind where | they ask the exact same question next week of someone | else. They would cycle through asking everyone on the | team about the minutiae of their job, because they had no | idea how to do it themselves. | | I realise that the idea of the '10x rockstar' is an | unpleasant one. But I also know that the best people I've | worked with over the years were at least ten times better | than the worst. | jrvarela56 wrote: | Why is this 'myth' talked about here in negative terms? | | From my professional experience, it's obvious that there | are coworkers that can output even 100x impact qhen | compared to peers. When judging entrepreneurs it's | visible some people's multiplier/productivity is in the | million-times compared to others. | | Given automation is at the core of our work as devs, why | do some people think 10x isn't credible? | fxtentacle wrote: | As long as some companies can get away with replacing an | entire team (including managers) with 1-4 highly skilled | developers, the myth will remain. | | As a practical example, consider 4 people beating Windows | Mobile with what later became Android. | HenryBemis wrote: | This is for programming (only). In other areas (GRC/security) | the 10x is cumbersome/impossible. | | Especially in many mega-big organizations, in non-dev depts, | the "Manager" is also tasked to: build and perform analytics, | do VERY HEAVY ad-hoc reporting (aka Directors bombarding you | with 10 different mini-projects weekly) and at the same time | you have to run the projects with 5-10 people, meaning | driving the ship, having huddles, handholding, coaching, | mentoring, reviewing, be present in 40% of the meetings, etc. | | I don't know how much hands-on is a programming 'boss' of 10 | people. But if it's no coding at all, I am happy for you and | I wish the same for me. | qznc wrote: | > It's not uncommon to find engineering managers with 30 direct | reports. Flatt says that's by design, to prevent micromanaging. | "There is only so much you can meddle when you have 30 people | on your team, so you have to focus on creating the best | environment for engineers to make things happen," he notes. | | Source: How Google Sold Its Engineers on Management | https://hbr.org/2013/12/how-google-sold-its-engineers-on-man... | justicezyx wrote: | Agree | | The more I move away engineering, the more I feel the | unreliability of human beings, and its stark contraction to | machines. | | Of cuz, machines, when sufficiently complex, becomes unreliable | as well. But by operating still within that boundary, one can | already do exceptionally things. | | People managers essentially are dealing with a completely | different entities than machines. Rarely one can operate on 2 | different entities and still perform exceptionally. | an_opabinia wrote: | Y'all might not be machines but you're definitely cogs. | justicezyx wrote: | I dont think human are cogs, at least not swes, they are | more like little electronic controller... | cheschire wrote: | And a sigmoid function isn't a boolean switch but you | still get more or less the same result regardless of how | complex the definition is. | | Ultimately employees move the company machine, whether | their job is to code, sell, manage, or clean toilets. | sandermvanvliet wrote: | From experience I'd say it's near impossible to combine the two | roles. Especially if the company is small there is just too | much: "we just need to get this done yesterday", but at this | point I guess that's startup life. Yes you could argue that | it's about priorities and that's true. However I do find that | this only works when you don't have people sick, on holiday or | whatever. The ideal situation just breaks down way too quickly | lumost wrote: | no manager management works ok at a small company without | career progression options. But in any shop where there is a | standardized performance review you'll need a manager who can | represent the team and individuals. | andrejserafim wrote: | I also find that 100 things to do as a manager is a | misconception. Doing 100 things well in a day is impossible. | Picking the 3 to do super-well and doing those. Yields the best | results. | | Especially because those 3 are unlikely to come back. | roughly wrote: | I found being really clear with myself about the things I was | _Not_ going to take care today was really valuable - it made it | much easier to pull my focus back to what I was working on if I | knew the other stuff was "scheduled" for another day. | ehnto wrote: | Likewise, it's very freeing to completely rid yourself of a | task mentally so that you can focus on the tasks at hand. | | Part of it is trusting that future me can get it done | properly. A trusting partner with which to delegate the task | to. | aliceryhl wrote: | I'm really curious about the tungsten cube it mentions. Anyone | who tried one got some experiences to share? | robocat wrote: | I noticed there is a heavy 4 inch version for $2500: | | https://www.amazon.com/Tungsten-Cube-Biggest-Size/dp/B07WK9W... | komali2 wrote: | https://thume.ca/2019/03/03/my-tungsten-cube/ | | Looks like it's just a heavy cube to use as a fidgit toy? I | wanna play with it now too lol. | | Edit: I don't know how to link directly to a single amazon | review but holy shit read the one from Richard , it should be | the first https://www.amazon.com/Tungsten-Cube-1-5-One- | Kilo/dp/B00XZBI... | OakNinja wrote: | It's the best Amazon review I've ever read. | | "... I have carried the tungsten with me, have grown attached | to the downward pull of its small form, its desire to be one | with the floor. This force has become so normal to me that | lifting any other object now feels like lifting cotton candy, | or a fluffy pillow. ..." | kilroy123 wrote: | Link to the review: | | https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B00XZBIJLS/RZKKKAM6FE5AI | bilater wrote: | 'Attention is your scarcest resource' | | _Clicks on link_ | realYitzi wrote: | underrated comment | hinkley wrote: | My most plausible scenario for the Singularity now is someone | figuring out how to augment short term memory with implants. | | I think we are going to find that attention is dominated by | working set memory, and people who can juggle even twice as much | stuff are going to operate fundamentally differently than those | who can't afford or won't have the surgery. And past 5x it may | become difficult to even communicate, much less compete. | ncmncm wrote: | I can't say whether more short-term memory would make us | smarter, but I can say that when I had a short-term memory | problem, I could do everything except program. | | This dependence on short-term memory is why I find Rust's | borrow checker intolerable during exploratory programming. | Whatever coding bugs it prevents have to be strongly | outnumbered by design errors it causes by stealing attention | from the most critical activity at that time. | | The borrow checker would deliver 100% of its value if it | limited its enforcement to release builds, and just reported | numbers otherwise. | notemaker wrote: | This is touched upon in [1]. Great book. | | [1] | https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Vernon%20Vinge+A%20Deepness%20in%2... | hinkley wrote: | Those people were scary. I had blotted them out. | ehnto wrote: | I think you are right for deep work, but in my opinion it's | getting to deep work that is the problem most people face. | Having a deep work switch would be life changing. | | Once I get into a deep work state, the ability to hold and | reason about more of the problem would definitely be helpful. | minitoar wrote: | Imo one of the biggest issues with "deep work" (aside from | motivation) is loading everything into short term memory. | Maybe if my short term memory was enhanced to be reloadable, | or maybe if I had enough short term capacity that I could | retain the working set needed for deepness and be interrupted | by a coworker for something unrelated. | hinkley wrote: | And not letting someone who wants to know if you are going | to the meeting later upset the entire house of cards. | acituan wrote: | > I think we are going to find that attention is dominated by | working set memory, and people who can juggle even twice as | much stuff are going to operate fundamentally differently | | I would be careful equivocating working memory, attention and | processing power. Attention is much more complicated than what | one can juggle in mind actively, what is chosen to enter and | leave it also matters, just as the shape and form of the task | it conforms to. There is no singular unit in brain that | "creates" attention, it is best thought as an emergent property | of several, if not all, parts working together. | | Besides that, even if we assumed a von Neumann architecture for | human cognition, an increase in memory wouldn't have expanded | total processing capacity unless it was starved of it. I don't | think that is the case for humans, if there was a selective | advantage to having more working memory as general problem | solvers, we would have had it already. Granted, the types of | tasks we undertake today can be different in shape, but not | completely; still need to survive a physical world, still need | to have successful relationships, still have to manage | emotions, still have to do all of these while doing our | specialized abstract cognitive tasks. | MauranKilom wrote: | Working memory is probably closer to cache than main memory, | and it's imo extremely limited and slow to warm up. Imagine a | CPU with just 6 cache lines for non-OS code... | | Although your argument of "if it brought such an advantage, | we should have evolved into it by now" does hold water too. I | suppose it hinges on how much of an evolutionary advantage we | actually have from excelling in the kind of deep abstract | thinking that some jobs require nowadays, vs. how much this | improvement would've been worth in past centuries. | kanzure wrote: | Interesting concept. One of my favorite mutations in humans is | a single nucleotide flip that confers 19% improvement in | working memory capacity. Substantially underrated. Would only | work on embryos, of course. | AlexCoventry wrote: | Which nucleotide site is that? | graeme wrote: | He mentions timeboxing. Does anyone know of a good way to do this | on ios with certain sites? | | The built in blocking with downtime is nowhere near granular | enough, and it is rather easy to turn off. Do any third party | browsers or apps have schedules for viewing certain sites? | | Eg on mac I have an app, coldturkey, which blocks certain urls | during the workday. | chrisco255 wrote: | I recommend the Forest app. It works on both desktop and mobile | and allows you to block sites as well as apps and sync your | preferences between accounts. I will usually set a 2 hour timer | while I need to focus. | | https://apps.apple.com/us/app/forest-stay-focused/id86645051... | https://www.forestapp.cc/ | graeme wrote: | It still just blocks everything, right? Like, all or nothing, | no way to make a calendar appointment or send a message, but | keep web blocked. | elliekelly wrote: | It's not exactly what you're looking for but you might like | FocusMate[1] which sets you up with a (mostly) silent video | chat partner to work for an hour and then report back what | you've accomplished. You won't want to be the dingus who | reports back that you've done nothing but screw around for | hour. I've found it's helpful in getting me started on | something and then once the session is over I'm able to keep | going. | | [1]https://www.focusmate.com/ | Insanity wrote: | Does anyone else have experience to me? It sounds odd to me | but might work. | adav wrote: | I use NextDNS on my iPhone to block distracting sites (and | privacy stuff etc). It's quick enough to disable briefly for a | false-positive but annoying enough to stop me mindlessly | browsing Hacker News on the toilet all day... | graeme wrote: | Thanks! Is that something you have to configure on a mac/pc? | I see no website blocking options on iphone. | | Edit: nevermind, found it. You configure a custom id on their | site, then enter that in the app | | There aren't any scheduling features, correct? | eloff wrote: | I tend to use /etc/hosts to block sites on my desktop, like | YouTube or HN. YouTube DNS itself is somehow special because it | stays cached for new browser windows. So I further cripple it | with ublock origin by disabling JavaScript. | | I can undo these things easily enough, but it's sufficient that | my monkey brain can't just open a tab and go there without my | conscious permission ( which disturbingly is how habit forming | these sites are for me.) | | I keep them available on my mobile, but I have an old, slow | phone and I never keep it on my desk, I put it out of reach and | with notifications on silent. | | For things like Facebook and Instagram my solution is simply to | delete my account and never let that abomination steal precious | minutes of my life. I don't miss them at all. | dllthomas wrote: | I use a tiling window manager called ratpoison. Much like | tmux or screen, there is a single key that says "I am talking | to you, WM" and then the next key is looked up in a key map. | | Something I've done is bind a key that changes my top-level | key map to a pared down version that only has meta, a command | to tell me the time, access to my music controls, and a way | back to my main key map. Of course I can still get to | anything on my computer with just a little effort, but the | additional friction is sometimes useful for staying on task. | rement wrote: | PSA: /etc/hosts does not work on Firefox unless you turn off | the "DNS over HTTPS" setting [0]. Spent a good hour trying to | figure out why Firefox was ignoring my /etc/hosts file one | day. | | [0]: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over- | https | eloff wrote: | Thanks for the tip. | baby wrote: | I do the same, but recently I've tried something else that | actually works! I turn the Wi-Fi off on my laptop. It's such | a stupid trick, as I can just turn it back on, but it usually | is enough of a friction to make me think twice "wait, am I | ready to procrastinate?" | eloff wrote: | Yeah, that's a good one. I need constant internet access | for my work though (software engineer) for slack, for | testing, for docs, so it wouldn't work for me. | | Anything that introduces enough friction that you stop and | make a conscious decision will do the job. | baby wrote: | I need this as well but I try to get that stuff offline | so that I can stay productive as long as possible without | needing to go back online. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2020-09-06 23:00 UTC)