[HN Gopher] Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tra... ___________________________________________________________________ Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content Author : Nextgrid Score : 242 points Date : 2020-09-11 18:38 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (developer.apple.com) (TXT) w3m dump (developer.apple.com) | _Microft wrote: | Anything else wouldn't be GDPR compliant anyways, would it? | Nextgrid wrote: | In Europe it indeed wouldn't, however GDPR enforcement has been | severely lacking despite the potential for significant fines, | so Apple taking matters into its own hands (and using its | influence and power over the App Store) is very good news. | Nextgrid wrote: | Full text of the clause: | | > 3.2.2 Unacceptable | | > (vi) Apps should allow a user to get what they've paid for | without performing additional tasks, such as posting on social | media, uploading contacts, checking in to the app a certain | number of times, etc. Apps should not require users to rate the | app, review the app, watch videos, download other apps, tap on | advertisements, enable tracking, or take other similar actions in | order to access functionality, content, use the app, or receive | monetary or other compensation, including but not limited to gift | cards and codes. | jonplackett wrote: | Amen. | JadeNB wrote: | Is this in the usual technical sense of MUST / SHOULD / MAY, or | does 'should not' here actually mean 'may not' (as suggested by | the category being 'Unacceptable', rather than 'Discouraged')? | | (Several other entries are phrased much less ambiguously: | "Unacceptable: (i) Creating an interface ...", and (ix) is | explicitly "Apps _must not_ ... " (emphasis mine).) | reaperducer wrote: | Apple's guidelines are usually written in soft language to | give it wiggle room in case an unexpected scenario arises. | | Practically-speaking, if Apple decides an app has violated | this provision, the app is toast. No app company on the | planet has enough lawyers to challenge Apple on such nit- | pickery. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | This has been my experience, as well. | | I once had to delete an entire bug fix version, and turn it | into a feature version, because I "shouldn't" have done | something (can't remember what, exactly -I'd have to go | digging through the commit comments to find it, and I don't | want to do that). | darklion wrote: | Apple says bug-fixes will no longer be held up by rule | violations. | jmull wrote: | I'm just about 100% sure Apple uses "should" and "should not" | in the absolute sense, not the way RFC's define it. | jtsiskin wrote: | The clause starts with "get what they've paid for" - does this | apply to free apps? | DoofusOfDeath wrote: | I find that policy entirely acceptable, for the same reasons I | think shrink-wrap EULAs should be illegal. | | This makes me curious about Apple and iOS / OS X. Does Apple | try to require that the user accepts an EULA for the OS after | buying Apple hardware? | donarb wrote: | All of Apple's EULAs are published on their website. You can | download the PDFs and read through them before you decide to | purchase software that Apple creates and sells. | | https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/ | matsemann wrote: | EULA's are basically unenforceable in Europe, so why | bother. For a contract to be valid it has to be understood | by both parties, be reasonable etc., and in many countries | forcing arbitration on consumer matters is invalid (don't | know if Apple has those terms, but many do). Forcing a | consumer to read 20+ pages of legalese for each purchase, | each app they download etc. is just not feasible. | easton wrote: | Yes, they do. On the Mac, at least for the longest time, they | put a sticker on the shrink wrap for the device that said | something to the effect of "By using this device, you agree | to the terms of Software License Agreement found at | apple.com/legal/sla". Of course, if you didn't agree with | that you could return the device or install Windows/Linux, | but on the iPhone (which won't activate without agreeing), | you can't since the bootloader is locked. | fizzled wrote: | When did they stop? I just bought a new MacbookPro | yesterday and there was nothing on it like that. Same for | the iWatch I bought last year, and the iPhone 6 two years | ago. | | Or is this just software? | placatedmayhem wrote: | Iirc, those shrink wrap licenses are of questionable | enforceability. The Wikipedia entry on "shrink wrap | contract" agrees, but I'm not well-versed on the topic. | izacus wrote: | Do you think you can fight this out in court against | Apple? | hombre_fatal wrote: | Are individuals taken to court over it for "misusing" | their Macbooks? | threeseed wrote: | It has been possible to run OSX on PCs for quite a few | years now courtesy of the Clover and OpenCore apps. There | have been countless Github projects, websites, forums etc | dedicated to providing material assistance in using them. | | At no point has Apple ever gone after the websites or | individuals despite it being fairly trivial to do so e.g. | DCMA or cease and desist letter. | | In fact Craig Federighi has gone on the record stating | that they fully support people hacking the Mac, OSX etc | and believe it to be an important part of the ecosystem. | DoofusOfDeath wrote: | Something about this has always confused me... | | IIUC (at least in US legal system), using software | without an appropriate license from the copyright holder | is considered a violation of civil copyright law. | | Suppose that courts deemed shrink-wrap EULAs to be | invalid. _If_ the EULA is the agreement that grants end- | users permission to use the copyrighted software, would | the invalidation mean that users were in violation of | copyright law? Or is there a right to use the software | that 's implicitly granted by the original purchase? | johnday wrote: | What would you actually be buying, if you bought the | software without being legally capable of using it? | Consultant32452 wrote: | You've bought the privilege of being allowed to accept | the EULA. | Ma8ee wrote: | It reminds me of a US visa, which is far from free, and | you pay for applying whether you is granted it or not. It | allows you travel to a border control and ask to be let | in. They can refuse you without explanation. | [deleted] | [deleted] | Angostura wrote: | Feels in line with GDPR | electriclove wrote: | This sounds.. great! | ggrrhh_ta wrote: | Doesn't youtube, with its ads, violate this policy? | Nextgrid wrote: | When it comes to YouTube the waters are muddy. The YouTube | app is just a client to a third-party web service (whose | functionality falls outside of App Store rules); so in this | case it can be argued that the "functionality" of the app is | just the client functionality and not the content itself. | | Furthermore you can skip ads on YouTube after a 5-second | timer, so this seems reasonably fair, though I would still | not install it and recommend everyone to just use the web | with a content blocker extension (AdGuard) or a third-party | frontend like Invidious (https://github.com/iv- | org/invidious). | kevinventullo wrote: | That seems like a pretty big loophole if applied. Taken to | the logical extreme, one could make an app that streams raw | user inputs to a server and streams back a video output and | be allowed to do whatever they like (albeit with horrendous | performance). | Spivak wrote: | I mean this is the main argument against game streaming | and HN seems to take the 100% opposite opinion. | derefr wrote: | Apple already declared a policy against game-streaming | service apps; presumably specifically to avoid this | loophole where the ads, purchases, etc. are happening | "remotely" and so Apple can't get a cut of them. | | Presumably, if anyone tried to build a service for | "streaming" non-game apps, that wouldn't be allowed on | the App Store either. | pieno wrote: | They've thought of that loophole and closed it already | ;-) Basically you can only stream from a device that is | owned by the user/owner of the iPhone/iPad on the same | LAN, and you should not use streaming to mimic a thin | client of a cloud app. See rule 4.7.2 on Remote Desktop | Clients. | | (Note: this does not apply for "generic" remote desktop | clients that are not intended to stream specific apps or | services, such as the generic Microsoft Remote Desktop | Client for iOS.) | pier25 wrote: | > _so in this case it can be argued that the | "functionality" of the app is just the client functionality | and not the content itself_ | | The problem is that companies like Google are able to get | away with it, but not small developers. | zimpenfish wrote: | > Furthermore you can skip ads on YouTube after a 5-second | timer | | For me, that only really happens these days with mid-video | ads (and even then it's happening less frequently despite | the number of mid-video ads increasing.) Most of this week | I've had double unskippable ads at the front of many videos | and they're generally 60+ seconds combined. | gerash wrote: | You can, you know, pay for the service (be the customer | and not the product) and not see any ads | toredash wrote: | Should. Not "must not" | msbarnett wrote: | The subsection this falls under is "Unacceptable" as in "Will | not be accepted". The "should" in the sentence is a normative | statement about values, not recommendational. | marvel_boy wrote: | In this legal context 'should not' means 'must not'. | criddell wrote: | > watch videos | | So games that periodically stop to show a full screen ad and | don't resume until the user closes the ad are in violation? | pindab0ter wrote: | Is this for paid games? I imagine this would not apply to | freemium games. | ricardonunez wrote: | As soon as I start using an app in a regular bases and I | notice they stop me too many times to watch videos or look | to timed ads, I check if they have a paid version. So this | is a good solution and a good compromise for paid. For free | apps, I get it because developers need to make money. | sizzle wrote: | Wow this is why my next phone will be an iphone, so sick of | apps in Android play store pestering me to rate their app after | completing an action in the app or forcing me to turn on | location services when I can easily enter a zip code instead. | bmarquez wrote: | > forcing me to turn on location services when I can easily | enter a zip code instead | | This exists on iOS too. I recently downloaded a wardrobe app | that refused to let me select clothes for hot or cold weather | unless I turned on location services. Also some fast food | apps (either Burger King, Popeye's or Taco Bell...can't | remember which one) constantly whine about location services | off and introduce extra friction to type in a zip code. | dathinab wrote: | But this also excludes letting the user chose between either | watching ads or paying for the content. | | A not very well working but reasonable business model. | | Why is it incompatible? | | Because getting access to normally payed-extra-for content by | watching apps means receiving a "monetary or other | compensation" | [deleted] | 2Gkashmiri wrote: | I remember ios 5 I think brought app permissions. Essentially say | app A should not get location or contacts and put this behind a | password. The app couldnt do shit. Then android after late got | some permissions but its still lame IMO. App can deny you access | without a permission. A recent thing I have seen on android is | permission protection or whatever. The system gives dummy or no | access to the contacts for example instead of actual contacts. | Sounds good but now every app can detect this and bugs you to | allow the sameby nagging you. Look, if I want to deny app A or B | access to contacts, as far as the app is concerned it should get | 0 access. Not blocking or pseudo blocking but a sinkhole type | "huh. Nothing here". It should not be able to detect this. Same | for internet access. If I deny internet to an app, that app | should think its in flight mode. Thats it. | | Same thing here. Say I dont want to be tracked, apps should think | I have allowed access and go ahead. Why should they tailor access | based on my permission to track ? My installing the app is proof | I want to use the app. I just dont want it to be tied to | anything. Kinda like the original "sandbox" idea | renewiltord wrote: | Okay, but I don't want that as a user. If I accidentally say | "Deny Location Permission" I want the app to say "I actually | can't navigate for you without this, sorry. Want me to request | the permission again?". I don't want to debug this shit - oh | why is navigation not working? No thanks. Life's too short. | reaperducer wrote: | Life is too short for you to press Settings > Privacy > | Location Services > app > enable? | | Are you on life support or something? | renewiltord wrote: | Haha, hilarious! But yes, I don't want to do that. | mumblerino wrote: | Correction: iOS has had permissions at least for as long as | apps were allowed and more permissions were added over time. | | Screenshot in the Camera section of this iPhoneOS 2 review: | https://www.imore.com/iphone-os-2-review | ugh123 wrote: | Could say the same thing about these cookie-accept popups as some | will just redirect you off their site if you don't accept. | ffpip wrote: | Such things are never going to come to Android are they? Every | preinstalled app abuses every permission possible | dheera wrote: | With most Android devices, at least you have the option to | install a different OS (e.g. LineageOS) that allows you to | spoof all such data, including to Google, which IMO provides a | better level of safeguarding against tracking. | | With iOS, the closed source OS and lack of alternatives | fundamentally means that Apple Inc. gets to secretly violate | your privacy while they play the moral high ground. | | Ultimately the best security comes when you, the user, control | the device AND the OS. | | EDIT: Apple fanboys downvoting me again, eh? You worship Apple | or something that would never do something wrong (ha)? Enjoy | your HN echo chamber. | derefr wrote: | It's hard to _prove_ that this is a fix (i.e. I can prove it | for my device, but your device might be special), but you can | always just install a VPN app that doesn't actually connect | to a VPN, but rather acts in a LittleSnitch-alike way to the | traffic it's proxying. | | I believe this is, in part, how CloudFlare's 1.1.1.1 app | works on iOS. | cmeacham98 wrote: | Pre-installed apps where you can't disable them or revoke their | permissions are a cancer on the Android ecosystem. Especially | fun when they have permissions like "access the filesystem" or | "obtain device location" or "send notifications". | wvenable wrote: | Are there pre-installed apps you can't disable? I have a | bunch disabled on my phone. | ffpip wrote: | There used to be a security app on my MIUI phone. Security | apps can't do anything on android, because each app is | sandboxed. But of course, it had full non-revocable | permissions including physical sensors, precise location, | contacts, camera and microphone. | | I hope someone cracks open their 'security' app and controls | every MIUI device, just for them to learn their lesson. | lern_too_spel wrote: | On Android, you can deny permissions to preinstalled apps (I | just verified this myself) or even disable the apps entirely, | which unlinks all entry points into the app. On iOS, they just | sit there sucking up your data like iMessage keeping track of | everybody you message. | cma wrote: | With a user controlled Android phone, you can just feed apps | you don't trust fake location data. But now Google has started | restricting user-owned Android to a fixed number of flashes or | something, or they get locked out of Google Play Services. | expectsomuch wrote: | Can't tell if this is a serious reply. | cma wrote: | https://www.xda-developers.com/fake-android-location/ | | https://www.xda-developers.com/how-to-fix-device-not- | certifi... | cblconfederate wrote: | Thats a good thing. Can Apple guarantee that they themselves are | not tracking their users' app preferences/behaviour either? | scarface74 wrote: | Of course they can't guarantee it. The best they could do is | give users the ability to block all internet access in an app. | Currently you can only block an app from using cellular data. | Nextgrid wrote: | Nope they can't. In fact to use an iOS device you pretty much | need an Apple account (if you want to be able to install any | apps) and that comes with a privacy policy and some extra | "features" you might not know about like every sender e-mail on | iOS Mail being synced to their cloud. | | However, at least we can find comfort in the fact that their | business model so far has been against the | surveillance/advertising economy and their entire marketing | strategy has been based on that for the past few years, so at | least they currently do not have any incentive to misuse that | data even if they do collect it (and if they do eventually | think about misusing it, we can hope that there would be some | actual enforcement of laws such as the GDPR that would | discourage them from doing so). | [deleted] | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | There's a fairly simple _cui bono_ aspect to this. | | Apple makes money by selling products to their users or taking | a cut of the users' purchases in their marketplace. | | Facebook and Google, on the other hand, make most of their | money by selling micro-segmented access to their user base to | third parties. | | Which of these two kinds of companies stands to benefit from | harvesting more data about their users whenever possible? | cblconfederate wrote: | Apple profits from knowing their users' | app/music/news/books/siri etc preferences and making purchase | suggestions, don't they? | sbuk wrote: | That's not quite the same as selling that information to | political 'think tanks' to buy influence in an election. | reaperducer wrote: | Sort of. | | Apple's recommendations are handled on-device. It's great | for security, but the downside is that Apple News on my | iPhone and Apple News on my computer don't have the same | list of publications I dislike. | hu3 wrote: | That's genius! Apple avoided developing synchronization | of user data and got good PR for doing that. | | I'm gonna try that with my clients. "Sir, I wont | aggregate your store's point of sale data because it's | more secure if the data never leaves the store. Now pay | me a premium for the added security, thanks." | Angeo34 wrote: | Apple wants all the data for themselves obviously. | daveisfera wrote: | > (iii) Artificially increasing the number of impressions or | click-throughs of ads, as well as apps that are designed | predominantly for the display of ads. | | So they're going to remove most of the games that my kids have | been duped into installing from an ad in another game? ;p | beervirus wrote: | Everybody complains about the walled garden, but damn I love to | see things like this. | dayjobpork wrote: | You do realise Apple could still do this in their app store AND | allow 3rd party app stores? | threeseed wrote: | But 3rd party app stores just mean a race to the bottom. | | The app store with the least oversight and cheapest prices | would be the winner. | | Policies like this are good for users but bad for apps and by | extension app stores. | ProAm wrote: | Doesn't Apple track every app you install, access and run? | Track you if you want to develop your own code for your own | fully paid for device? | ffpip wrote: | > Doesn't Apple track every app you install, access and run? | | Do you have a source on the them tracking every app a user | runs? Obviously they have to collect every app I install for | updates and subscriptions, but collecting every run might be | too much. | cblconfederate wrote: | Don't they verify executables for this reason? Do they | provide info about whether they log this process? | Nextgrid wrote: | I believe iOS handles this process differently. Apps are | signed in advance (when the app is approved and published | to the Store) and the signatures are only checked locally | against a hardcoded signing key. But even on Mac when it | comes to notarization, I'm pretty sure the signatures are | only checked on first run and then the result of that is | cached (partly for performance reasons). | sroussey wrote: | Same on Mac AppStore. | ffpip wrote: | Why would they verify it everytime you run the app? It | already goes through heavy review before it comes onto | the app store. | izacus wrote: | They advertise a whole product which draws all this | tracking data as nice graphs to developers: | https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ | | It's essentially Google Analytics, just for apps on iOS. | | Where do you think those "Daily active devices" data comes | from? | anater wrote: | Users must opt in though. It's part of the iOS set up to | allow this and you can change it any time | lern_too_spel wrote: | This setting is opt out, not opt-in. It's unclear if | opting out hides the data from Apple or just from the app | developers. | slipheen wrote: | That really does seem like whataboutism. | | No one is claiming Apple is perfect, but this is a marked | improvement of apps requiring tracking to function. | ProAm wrote: | No its more about the pot calling the kettle black. Do as I | say not as I do because I know whats best for you. I can | see it seems to be whataboutism but that was not my | intention, it's about hypocrisy. | samatman wrote: | whataboutism: n. An accusation of hypocrisy designed to | deflect from bad behavior on the part of another party. | ProAm wrote: | Ha! Ive never actually looked the definition up. This is | definitely whataboutism (I still havent looked the | definition up so Im trusting this the actual definition) | samatman wrote: | well, I did make that up. | | but here's dictionary.com on the subject, and I think | it's congruent, you'll have to judge for yourself: | | https://www.dictionary.com/browse/whataboutism | birthdaydog wrote: | This is exactly whataboutism. | ProAm wrote: | I think we're arguing semantics about business | philosophy. | sbuk wrote: | There has to be be some degree of tying purchases to an | account. The real issue here is what is done with the data | after it's been collected. Internal use is one thing; such as | improving apps etc. When it's used to target individual in a | bid to influence their thinking, that's when the real problem | starts. Are Apple guilty of the latter? | lern_too_spel wrote: | Certainly. They use it in app store ads, to determine their | own product development, and to market their products. | | On other platforms, I can install apps on my devices | without telling anybody. | anater wrote: | Which platforms? | lern_too_spel wrote: | Most Android distributions, most Linux distributions, | Windows, etc. | sneak wrote: | Note that "tracking" is used in an intentionally misleading way | here. Apple's guidelines expressly permit all sorts of silent, | invisible, no-opt-in tracking within apps, and most apps in the | app store embed this sort of spyware. | | The term "tracking" in this instance refers to GPS or contacts | permission and other such things that Apple has built an opt-in | switch for. | beervirus wrote: | What sort of "silent, invisible, no-opt-in tracking" does | Apple allow? | lern_too_spel wrote: | This policy is straight from GDPR. The Play Store and the | Amazon App Store also enforce this, despite neither enforcing | walled gardens. | ryandrake wrote: | I've always wondered why do companies call it "opt" in if it's | not optional? | dellcybpwr wrote: | Should not vs may not. Any difference? | RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: | This is one of the reasons, I am actually in favor of only having | the App Store on Apple. As soon as you have another way to | distribute apps on the iPhone, app developers will try to migrate | to the less privacy conscious store that lets them do all their | dark patterns. | | Sometimes, let the consumer choose does not work. For example, if | governments did not regulate kids products and just said let the | consumer choose, the market would be filled with unsafe products. | Sometimes you need someone enforcing standards. | | Apple's enforcement of standards is one of the big reasons why I | choose their ecosystem. | spideymans wrote: | Certain developers (ahem... Facebook) love to cry about Apple's | walled garden, without acknowledging that the reason that iOS | and its walled garden is so popular is precisely because these | large developers have proven to users that they are completely | untrustworthy. If they conducted their business more | responsibly, and if users could trust that these developers | wouldn't abuse their privacy and security, perhaps the mobile | software ecosystem would be more open in nature. | mensetmanusman wrote: | "I should still be able to view where I am on this map without | letting anyone know where I am" | reaperducer wrote: | _"I should still be able to view where I am on this map without | letting anyone know where I am"_ | | Seems perfectly reasonable. We used to do it before there was | an internet to feed our locations to. I did it on my Palm III. | | Heck, my car does it today. And is able to show me all the | nearby coffee shops with zero internet connection, thus no | snitching. | prophesi wrote: | Would this also apply to forcing users to enable location for | content that only partially requires it? In particular, Snapchat | has some location-based filters, but even the ones that don't | require location (purely cosmetic, rewind, slow-mo, etc filters) | are disabled. | canadianwriter wrote: | "Apps should not require users to rate the app, review the app, | watch videos, download other apps, tap on advertisements, enable | tracking, or take other similar actions in order to access | functionality, content, use the app, or receive monetary or other | compensation, including but not limited to gift cards and codes." | | Bunch of apps started doing the above "enable tracking" part | already - good thing Apple specifically disallowed it, should nip | that problem before 14 comes out. | dathinab wrote: | I do not think Apple should have the power to do such decisions. | | I do not like tracking at all. | | But I think this is something which needs to be handled by | governments (laws/regulations) not by apple forcing their opinion | about what is right onto everyone else by abusing their marked | positions. | | In this case it might be beneficial for the users. | | In others cases it was not beneficial for the users at all but | only for apple. Like if I remember correctly apps where not | allowed to state that they are Pebble compatible because Pebble | did compete with the Apple Watch at least theoretically, similar | platforms like Netflix/Amazon Prime got special terms wrt. the | pay cut but a Netflix/Amazon Prime for gaming wasn't allowed at | all for dubious reasons (with that reasons any content gateway | like browsers, newsfeeds, Netflix etc. would not be allowed) oh | and guess what it seems Apple is currently working on their own | Gaming/Game Streaming platform... | | So yes anti tracking is good. But I still belive Apple is again | abusing their monopoly like positions for their own benefits, | let's not forget Apple has their own app network which likely | isn't affected by this. | gpanders wrote: | > But I think this is something which needs to be handled by | governments (laws/regulations) not by apple forcing their | opinion about what is right onto everyone else by abusing their | marked positions. | | Why should governments force their opinion about what is right | onto everyone else? Why not allow freedom in the market so that | users can choose what matters most to them? Right now, Apple is | serving the market of those opposed to tracking and in favor of | greater privacy. If it turns out this is what consumers want | and are willing to pay for, competitors will feel pressure to | follow suit. No heavy handed government regulation needed. | slipheen wrote: | Governments ought to be the place for this level of regulation, | absolutely - But right now, governments aren't regulating. | | In the mean time, I'm glad Apple is. If Apple wasn't doing | this, no one would be. | spideymans wrote: | Government regulation would be at the mercy of Google and | Facebook and their hoard of regulators, so I'm not convinced | this would protect iOS end users better than the status quo. | Facebook and similar developers might be happy about it though | ATsch wrote: | This is already legally required by GDPR but I guess it's good | for apple to check for it. | Nextgrid wrote: | The GDPR so far doesn't have any enforcement for stuff like | this. All the links to "enforcement tracker" (which I'm sure | someone will reply with down below) have been either about a | technicality like a badly worded privacy policy or the amount | of the fine was peanuts compared to the size of the offending | company. | matthewmacleod wrote: | This is not required by GDPR. | cblconfederate wrote: | the tracking thing is ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2020-09-11 23:00 UTC)