[HN Gopher] Giant Pacific Octopus
___________________________________________________________________
Giant Pacific Octopus
Author : simonebrunozzi
Score : 163 points
Date : 2020-09-18 15:09 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nationalgeographic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nationalgeographic.com)
| gigatexal wrote:
| The coolest creatures. I love them!
| ismail wrote:
| I just finished watching a Netflix documentary about an octopus.
| The kids loved it.
|
| It was probably one of the most fascinating documentaries I have
| ever seen. What a story & some amazing footage. I could not help
| but think that octopus are very intelligent.
|
| "My Octopus Teacher"
|
| Edit: spoiler alert on the link. Watch it without reading
| Wikipedia. The twists and turns are part of the experience.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Octopus_Teacher
| jonplackett wrote:
| I second and third this - It's such a beautiful and amazing
| story - and shot really really nicely too!
|
| HIGHLY RECOMMEND!
| dontcarethrow2 wrote:
| It was such a beautiful story with a great underwater video to
| go along. I have a hard time imagining filming that footage
| with just snorkels. Amazing!
| noman-land wrote:
| +1 for this documentary. Really interesting relationship and
| some incredible footage.
| mindfulplay wrote:
| Octopuses are so fascinating. We scour other planets and galaxies
| for life / mystical aliens sending aimless signals in search of
| reciprocation or even acknowledgement.
|
| I wonder how amazing it would be if we had a similar grand
| undertaking in our oceans... With just octopuses (without
| interfering with them)?
|
| They are perfect aliens we are seemingly looking for in the skies
| but living right alongside us....
| moh_maya wrote:
| If you find the topic of non-human intelligence, esp. octopus
| intelligence interesting, you may find Adrian Tchaikovsky's
| children of Ruin series worth your time. The 2nd book, without
| ruining too much of the story, has octopii as one of the central
| characters. [1]
|
| Going out further afield, exploring forms of intelligence &
| cognition that are very different from humans, Peter Watt's
| blindsight (firefall) series is an idea-filled, dense, very
| satisfying read. [2]
|
| [1]https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40376072-children-of-
| rui...
|
| [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/48484.Blindsight
| zimablue wrote:
| The Children of Ruin series is somewhere between an homage and
| a rip-off of the "Zones of Thought" series, they're similar
| quality though in my opinion, I'd read the originals first just
| 'cause.
| alien1993 wrote:
| I STRONGLY suggest you first read Children of Time and only
| then Children of Ruin, you'd miss a ton of pieces and some
| parts of the story wouldn't be clear at all.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Related recommendation:
|
| Ted Chiang's tiny gem of a novella - "The Great Silence"
| elorant wrote:
| Second that. What a beautiful and inspiring story. My
| favorite of all in Exhalation.
| yourapostasy wrote:
| I'd really like to hear the feedback from those in AI-complete
| or cognitive science research about Blindsight and especially
| Watts' notes [1], and if we could implement "merely" sentient
| AI with no consciousness, or if sentience backed by human-
| capacity reasoning and learning somehow lead to sapience.
| Because Watts makes an effective argument with his copious
| bibliography that "only" sentience can Accomplish A Hell Of A
| Lot.
|
| Could a "merely" sentient software-driven but not
| conscious/self-aware robot be built that washes my dishes /
| cutlery and puts them away, keeps my permaculture garden
| tended/weeded, separates recyclables, washes, hang dries when
| feasible / conventional-dries when not, folds, puts away
| clothes / towels / fabric products, dusts, vacuums, puts away
| clutter, _etc._?
|
| [1] https://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm#Notes
| webmaven wrote:
| _> Could a "merely" sentient software-driven but not
| conscious/self-aware robot be built that washes my dishes /
| cutlery and puts them away, keeps my permaculture garden
| tended/weeded, separates recyclables, washes, hang dries when
| feasible / conventional-dries when not, folds, puts away
| clothes / towels / fabric products, dusts, vacuums, puts away
| clutter, etc.?_
|
| Probably. It could also probably convincingly portray itself
| as conscious if set to that task, for versimilitude's sake.
| Whether it _is_ set to that task will probably depend on
| whether that seems to be the shortest path out of the uncanny
| valley.
|
| At which point... I'm not sure there is any difference left
| worth talking about.
| silentsea90 wrote:
| Ha! I just finished reading Children of Time and am reading CoR
| right now. Humanity eerily reflects the current state of the US
| in those books.
| Razengan wrote:
| I like to imagine that the gland in octopuses which causes them
| to have short lifespans unless surgically removed, was an
| artificial limiter designed to give terrestrials a chance.
| wiredfool wrote:
| Related: Giant Pacific Tree Octopus
| https://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/
|
| (one of the classics of the early internet)
| Xavdidtheshadow wrote:
| This was our introduction to "not everything on the internet is
| true, even if it's presented nicely" circa middle school. Glad
| to see it's still up and running!
| kemiller wrote:
| The sheer alien-ness of cephalopod intelligence reminds me of the
| current conversation about AI and whether they are "truly"
| thinking or just mechanistic. It's easier to see an octopus as
| executing a highly advanced algorithm than it is to see ourselves
| that way. And we can look at them and appreciate their
| sophistication yet have no way of understanding their internal
| experience.
| interestica wrote:
| I'm not sure if it's still alive, but if you're in Toronto,
| Ripley's Aquarium has one. Though, it's kept in the 'Canadian
| Waters' gallery for...reasons.
|
| "Ripley's Aquarium of Canada is home to a giant Pacific octopus
| (Enteroctopus dofleini). This species of octopus is the largest
| of 300+ known octopus species. There is a huge variation in size
| that depends on the individual, but the average for this species
| is considered around 15-18kg (33-40lb), with an arm span around
| 4m(12-14ft) when stretched out. Of course, we can't talk about
| size without mentioning the world record - OVER 130kg (300lb) and
| 9m (30ft) wide! There has also been the occasional "fisherman's
| tale" of even larger individuals, but the proof isn't quite there
| yet.
|
| The giant Pacific octopus can live to be about four years old,
| with both males and females dying soon after breeding. Females
| live long enough to tend to their eggs, but they do not eat
| during this months-long brooding period, and usually die soon
| afterwards."
|
| https://www.ripleyaquariums.com/canada/tag/qa/
| reaperducer wrote:
| When I was a kid, my father used to raise octopi in our basement
| in NYC as a hobby. He had about six 55-gallon tanks arranged in
| two rows.
|
| Every day, he'd come home from work, throw his hat and tie on the
| coatrack, and immediately head to the basement to play with them.
| If you didn't play with them, they'd die of boredom, he said.
|
| Their favorite game was "jar." He's put empty Gerber and Ball
| jars in the tanks, with lids, and they'd swim in and out and in
| and out of the open jars. Eventually, they'd learn to open the
| closed jars. And then they'd spend hours swimming inside the
| jars, and closing the lids behind them, and trying different
| sized lids to see which ones worked on which jars. It was all
| very fulfilling to my father.
|
| I don't know what happened to the octopi when they got mature. My
| guess is that he sold them to pet stores or restaurants or
| something.
| Cro_on wrote:
| unfortunately and to shatter your dreams, as mine were, it is
| and has always been:
|
| octopuses*
|
| tis mixage of greik and latin eytymologies and wyll not bey
| allowed
|
| by the way is your dad thomas pynchon?
| aqme28 wrote:
| By that logic shouldn't it be octopodes? That way we're
| consistently greek.
| Cro_on wrote:
| yes, they are almost the same
|
| the greek d was actually a hard th sound iirc, Delta being
| pronounced 'thelta' as opposed to 'delta'.
|
| hopefully that clarifies (and is actually accurate) how
| octopuses and octopodes are connected
| alteria wrote:
| Yes. I volunteered at an aquarium for several years, and we
| spent a surprising amount of time learning octopus
| etymology. It was a top 10 question for adults to ask.
| jfk13 wrote:
| Octopus entomology? I think you meant etymology.
| Falling3 wrote:
| Octopus entomology sounds a lot more interesting
| alteria wrote:
| Yes, whoops!
| reaperducer wrote:
| _octopuses_
|
| Like "Vaxen?"
| [deleted]
| picodguyo wrote:
| "The Oxford English Dictionary lists octopi, octopuses and
| octopodes (in that order)"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_form_of_words_ending_in.
| ..
| Cro_on wrote:
| Person with Volume X (Moul-Ovum) of the second edition OED
| in front of them here..
|
| a simple reply to this would be that in no dictionary 'pu'
| comes before 'po' :)
|
| granted, octopodes comes under the heading of octopus, as
| it's plural, so it is technically after.
|
| but following the loose nature of the quote in hand, it is
| also in fact true that octopi comes before octopuses, it
| just so happens to be attached to the full word 'octopian'
| - suggestive of an octopus
| DanBC wrote:
| Does it?
|
| octopus
|
| ('akt@p@s, ak't@Up@s)Pl. octopodes (ak't@Up@di:z),
| anglicized octopuses.[mod.L. octopus, a. Gr. oktopous, acc.
| oktopod-a eight-footed, f. okto eight + pous, pod- foot.]
|
| octopus
|
| A genus of cephalopod molluscs, characterized by eight
| `arms' surrounding the mouth and provided with suckers; an
| individual of this genus (esp. one of the larger and more
| formidable species).
|
| 1758: Baker in Phil. Trans. L. 778 "The Polypus,
| particularly so called, the Octopus, Preke, or Pour-
| contrel."
|
| 1835: Kirby Hab. & Inst. Anim. I. x. 308 "The body of the
| octopus is small, it has legs sometimes a foot and a half
| in length, with about two hundred and forty suckers on each
| leg."
|
| 1880: Browning Pietro of Abano 401 "Help! The old magician
| clings like an octopus!"
|
| 1884: H. M. Leathes Rough Notes Nat. Hist. 46 "Saying that
| enormous octopuses existed on the western side of Panama,
| in the Pacific Ocean."
|
| octopus
|
| b. fig.; usually applied to an organized power having
| extended ramifications and far-reaching influence, esp.
| harmful or destructive.
|
| 1882: Greg Misc. Ess. ii. 37 "We are the very octopus of
| nations."
|
| 1893: Boston (Mass.) Jrnl. 25 Mar. 2/1 "The electric
| octopus. Formal organization of the New England Street
| Railway Company."
|
| 1894: Westm. Gaz. 12 Mar. 2/1 "He was an administrative
| octopus, a cormorant of toil."
|
| octopus
|
| c. attrib. and Comb.
|
| 1880: G. Meredith Tragic Com. (1881) 206 "Then they laid
| octopus-limbs on her."
|
| 1894: Outing (U.S.) XXIV. 460/1 "An octopus power sought to
| tear the human limpet from its clinging place."
|
| 1898: P. Manson Trop. Diseases i. 9 "A strange-looking
| octopus-like creature."
| bgun wrote:
| Languages, especially English, are democracies - if enough
| people say _octopi_ , it eventually will be (and may already
| be) _octopi_.
| LolWolf wrote:
| > Languages [...] are democracies
|
| I think the French would like to have a word!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academie_Francaise
|
| (On the other hand, rules aren't binding, so it's more like
| a "will of the people (if the people's will is large
| enough)"?)
| qchris wrote:
| According to my one semester intro course, this is
| referred to in linguistics as either a "prescriptive" or
| "descriptive" approach to language. As I think you
| alluded to, while the prescriptive approach defines
| people's attitudes regarding how certain approaches to
| the language are viewed ("this is right/wrong"), it
| rarely ends up actually changing how the language(s)
| themselves get used and develop.
| samatman wrote:
| The French verlan is a prime demonstration that, in point
| of fact, King Canute cannot stop the tide from turning.
| jakevoytko wrote:
| I took a French class last year, and the teacher spent a
| lot of time identifying differences between academy
| French and how people actually talk. Things like "Je ne
| sais pas" => "Chais pas," which sounded like "shay pa."
| It seemed like the people still had a lot to say about
| how French should unofficially be written and spoken,
| even if it couldn't be used in formal settings.
| samradelie wrote:
| That's neat the teacher brought up the 'tiers' of
| formality. As an american kid in France growing up, the
| 'vous-voyez' was instilled early on along with
| evaluations over the years in written and oral style. You
| probably remember 'liaisons'? It's as though in the same
| way a vowel at the beginning of a word causes the last
| consonant of the previous word to be pronounced, as
| familiarity increases and formality decreases, the words
| themselves begin to blend. Somewhere between your
| examples there'd be "j'ne sais pas" and then if your a
| high school kid in 2005, "Saich aps"
| MayeulC wrote:
| Well, thus is, strictly speaking, the difference between
| "I don't know' and "I dunno". Speakers know this is a
| colloquial saying.
|
| There might be a few areas where official bodies are
| lagging behind usage ("postuler a" being one I have in
| mind), but I'd say that grammar nazis and teachers alike
| are actually somewhat effective IMO.
| simlevesque wrote:
| > "postuler a"
|
| Today I learned that I used it "wrong" all my life.
| Anon4Now wrote:
| I don't know, but I kind of like "i" being the plural of
| "us". It makes all my decisions seem unanimous.
| thunderbong wrote:
| Shouldn't that be unanimi?
| blnqr wrote:
| unanimata
| chrisweekly wrote:
| unanimoi?
|
| (pronounced "yew-nan-i-mwa" as in French "me")
|
| ;)
| drcongo wrote:
| That story took a turn.
| reaperducer wrote:
| Italian neighborhood. As a kid, I don't think I ever had a
| restaurant meal that didn't have octopus somewhere on the
| table.
| toiletfuneral wrote:
| "Wow what an amazing intelligent beautiful creature, lol let's
| just eat it"
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| The plural for octopus is not octopi, but octopuses [0].
|
| I am telling you not to be pedantic, but because I would
| appreciate to be corrected. Hope you feel the same. :)
|
| [0]: https://qz.com/1446229/let-us-finally-resolve-the-
| octopuses-....
| reaperducer wrote:
| No need to apologize. I used "octopi" because that's what my
| father always said. I have no opinion on the matter.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| Another point of view:
|
| https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-
| plura...
|
| Octopi, octopuses, and octipodes have all been used. I
| personally think octopi rolls more smoothly off the tongue
| than either of the other two, so that's what I tend to use.
|
| I find the arguments regarding Greek or Latin purity to be
| unconvincing- we are speaking neither language. We're
| speaking English, which is a head-on collision between the
| two, with Germanic trappings gluing it all together. I
| happily mix and mash whatever prefix, root, infix or suffix I
| like. If others like it and use it, success! Whether a
| theoretical Roman from centuries past would agree does not
| enter the calculation.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Whichever one you use, most people will understand you, so
| ultimately it doesn't matter. English is full of loan words
| and they're often used in different ways than their source
| languages. There isn't a settled plural in English, though
| many people have strong opinions about one or another being
| right.
| ianai wrote:
| They have a gland or something that kills them before they live
| longer than a few years. The specifics probably vary.
| swyx wrote:
| whats the evolutionary reason (i know there doesnt have to be
| one) for something like that?!
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Octopi are easily damaged. Perhaps to keep the population
| fit, by frequently turning over older (damaged) members.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> whats the evolutionary reason for something like that?!
|
| You can never really know _the_ reason with evolution
| because every plausible effect is in play and part of the
| optimization process. Having said that, one reason for
| adults to die may be to conserve resources (food) for the
| young in times /areas of scarcity. Another may be to
| prevent excess breeding by an individual, which may reduce
| genetic diversity. There are probably other viable reasons
| as well.
| KSteffensen wrote:
| I've heard a theory that they are cannibals and would eat
| their young.....
| jbay808 wrote:
| > Another may be to prevent excess breeding by an
| individual, which may reduce genetic diversity.
|
| That sounds like group selectionism. In what circumstance
| would this be deleterious to the propagation of that
| individual's genes?
| reason-mr wrote:
| Surely if genetic variation is introduced primarily by
| the breeding process, any factors which have a effect
| against like (competing for food, less genetic
| variation), etc, are going to get selected against? I
| have always thought this was the reason behind human
| lifespans - in neolithic times, up to 33 years. Just
| enough time to mate and raise another individual to
| maturity.
| jacobush wrote:
| No, _medium_ 33, some could get old. Just not most. And
| median and medium got dragged by high child mortality.
| MayeulC wrote:
| Lesser genetic diversity is always bad for survival: with
| clonal species like the bananas we cultivate, for
| instance, a single pathogen can endanger the whole
| population.
|
| The less diverse the population, the less likely timely
| mutations will help protect it. Incidentally, our modern
| society is pretty diverse, especially as we protect those
| who couldn't otherwise survive without modern medicine.
| jbay808 wrote:
| No disagreements there, but adaptations that are
| advantageous for the population as a whole won't
| necessarily spread through a population.
|
| https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QsMJQSFj7WfoTMNgW/the-
| traged...
| clort wrote:
| One other evolutionary reason is that octopuses lay 20-100
| thousand eggs that one time. They really don't need to
| carry on and produce another batch. Of course, most of
| those larva are eaten before they make it to maturity, just
| like many other sea creatures..
| rikroots wrote:
| I googled "why do octopuses die so young" and came up with
| this article: https://www.sciencealert.com/mother-octopus-
| senescence-death...
|
| > The maturation of the reproductive organs appears to be
| driven by secretions from the optic gland. These same
| secretions, it seems, inactivate the digestive and salivary
| glands, which leads to the octopus starving to death.
|
| > In 1977, researchers removed this gland and found that
| the octopus' mothering instincts disappeared. She abandoned
| her eggs, started feeding again, and went on to live a much
| longer life.
|
| As a reproductive strategy for an (arguably) intelligent
| animal ... this makes me feel sad. However there's plenty
| of octopuses around so in evolutionary terms it's a
| strategy that works.
|
| As for the males - and this is the point at which my
| anthropomorphic 'yuk' reflex goes into overdrive - they die
| soon after their first successful sexual encounter. Males
| store sperm in one of their arms. For some species, 'sex'
| involves detaching that arm and giving it to the female to
| keep for later use. Then they wander off and die. Possibly
| from disappointment.
| blnqr wrote:
| Only the good die young
| shard wrote:
| Sounds like female octopus with the gland removed could
| be a good pet. It's like spaying a cat.
| swyx wrote:
| i mean.. i feel for all my octopus brothers. i would too.
| Thlom wrote:
| There's a Radiolab episode about this. An Octopus mother
| brooding her eggs for month on end and then dying just
| when the eggs hatched. Episode title is Octomom.
| hmahncke wrote:
| This is a pretty incredible story - thanks for sharing it!
| mamp wrote:
| Probably living happily on a farm...
| polytely wrote:
| If you like octopusses I highly recommend the EV Nautilus channel
| on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbHjs9A7sis
|
| They livestream ocean exploration with remote controlled
| submarine, it produces wonderful footage.
| dmix wrote:
| The short life span always interested me, especially being high
| intelligence. It lives long enough to breed, serving it's short
| singular purpose.
|
| I'd love to see a comparison of the life spans of various
| animals/species. It would make for a good graphic/visualization.
| I'm guessing this sort of lifespan is more common than not,
| compared to say whales living ~50yrs.
|
| Edit: I found two good infographicy examples, although Id love
| something far more in depth
|
| https://payload.cargocollective.com/1/13/443926/6626429/ANIM...
|
| https://www.alansfactoryoutlet.com/how-long-animals-live-the...
| 29ebJCyy wrote:
| Peter Godfrey Smith has a great summary of this in "Other
| Minds":
|
| > Why should an organism devote all its resources to one brood,
| or one breeding season? Much depends, again, on the risk of
| death by predation and other external causes--especially on how
| this risk changes over an animal's lifetime. Suppose in some
| animal the juvenile stage is risky, but once you get to be an
| adult, you can expect to live for a while without being eaten.
| Then it makes sense for adults to reproduce more than once.
| That applies to fish and many mammals. If, on the other hand,
| the adult life stage is very risky, it might make more sense to
| "go for broke" as soon as you get to a stage where you can
| breed. Seasons also play a role. There might be a good season
| for laying eggs, or for hatching. That will determine a
| timetable within each year; perhaps it makes sense to mate in
| spring, or in winter. Then the question becomes: During how
| many years should you try to reproduce? Initially it might seem
| obvious that there is no harm in leaving it open, at least,
| that you will be around for another couple of years. You might
| make it through. Why fall apart in the meantime? But here the
| Williams argument returns, along with the need to think about
| these evolutionary questions by considering vast numbers of
| individuals and many generations. In the abstract, you would
| like to live and mate forever--at least from an evolutionary
| point of view. But who will leave more descendants, an organism
| which spends everything on one mating season, or a rival which
| spends less now in the hope of reproducing again later? If you
| spend less now to save something for later, that will do you no
| good if animals of your kind have little chance of making it to
| the next breeding season. In that case, it is better to put
| everything into one mating season, embracing all the options
| which give you an advantage now, even at the cost of breakdown
| once the season is done.
| alikim wrote:
| Such a great book! I thought the whole section on why we age
| was compelling. The idea that nature can select for mutations
| which may be beneficial earlier on but have harmful effects
| after a given time period was new to me.
| mindfulplay wrote:
| I have often wondered about this aspect of lifespan. Octopuses
| are amazing.
|
| Perhaps their relatively short lifespan and lifecycle after
| mating is somehow correlated with them being around for 500+
| million years. Somehow I find that more fascinating.
|
| I feel like humans are inherently lower on this scale: we
| definitely live longer but I wonder as a species if we would be
| better off with shorter lifespan (and life cycle) like
| octopuses that helps the entire human species survive
| (peacefully?) as opposed to an optimization around single
| individual lifespan.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| That seems rather bleak and somewhat Malthusian. I'm further
| perplexed by the idea that anti-individualism or some sort of
| collectivism would be "better for us". Historically,
| collectivist thinking hasn't been positive for anyone who's
| interests fall outside of the narrow interests of those in
| power.
| stainforth wrote:
| And yet firms collect individuals together to extract the
| surplus profit from them for those in power.
| jbay808 wrote:
| > Historically, collectivist thinking hasn't been positive
| for anyone who's interests fall outside of the narrow
| interests of those in power.
|
| Doesn't that really depend on your choice of examples? I
| could for example point to the Montreal protocol as a
| highly successful example of collectivist thinking that has
| been hugely positive for basically everyone, perhaps
| outside of a narrow few in the refrigerants industry.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| The Montreal protocol is really narrow, and addresses the
| commons in a way that benefits everyone everywhere in a
| narrow and specific way (reduced ozone depletion), while
| only requiring a switch to a slightly more expensive/less
| efficient replacements for CFC and HFCs.
|
| I'm clearly not arguing against environmental protection.
| Im arguing against the nebulous idea of "the good of
| society (species as in the grandparent post)" vs
| protection of individual rights.
| lisper wrote:
| Human life spans are driven by the fact that newborn humans
| need the support of their parents to survive until they reach
| sexual maturity. So there is selective pressure on humans to
| live just long enough to see their grandchildren born and not
| much longer. Octopi don't have that constraint. They just
| need to reproduce, then they're done.
| dmm wrote:
| Humans being of the few animals that go through menopause
| is strong evidence that grandmothers contribute to the
| survival of their grandchildren.
| mindfulplay wrote:
| Actually not. Octopuses (female) breed their young for
| months without eating and then die off. Seems like they
| have perfected this system over millenia via evolution?
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Given their intelligence, one wonders what they would be like
| if they lived say 20 years? Would they be ruling the oceans?
| vharuck wrote:
| I've wondered this, too. If they lived long enough after the
| new generation is born, they might've developed language or
| some other communication system.
| anonAndOn wrote:
| I thought they communicated via semaphore? Their cousins
| the cuttlefish certainly do.
| vharuck wrote:
| One researcher has seen "communication" in one species of
| octopus, but it's mostly looking big and dark to drive
| away others, or small and light before being driven
| away[0]. It's a very primitive communication, like
| rattlesnakes do to scare away dangers. Not the kind of
| complex system I was thinking of.
|
| I'm being very human-centric, though. It just seems like
| if they're intelligent enough to recognize individual
| faces, use tools, and learn from what other octopi do, a
| complex language would be inevitable. And from there
| they'd accrue oral histories and localized cultures.
|
| [0] https://www.livescience.com/53514-octopuses-lead-
| social-live...
| colechristensen wrote:
| Their reproduction strategy would have to change, when
| you produce 100,000 eggs and die taking care of them
| there's not much chance to develop culture.
| koheripbal wrote:
| Especially true since living longer often means helping to
| raise and teach children - passing on knowledge.
|
| Many land animals are intelligent and raise children so it's
| not clearly the only requirement for advanced development.
|
| ....they do certainly have the finger like dexterity for fine
| object control though.
| agumonkey wrote:
| maybe self destroy their own species and so only the short
| lived one persist
| mindfulplay wrote:
| I find this amusing as this is an inherently human emotional
| evaluation. Perhaps that is not the point in the grand scheme
| of things?
|
| Octopuses have survived for 500+ millions of years and I
| would say more intelligent and peaceful than humans who
| 'ruled' or savaged their own species for... what benefit
| actually?
| [deleted]
| Natsu wrote:
| I'm not sure about the 'peaceful' claim, that seems to me
| to be something of a romanticism. It's called the 'law of
| the jungle' for a reason, after all, e.g. -
|
| https://www.livescience.com/47982-octopus-cannibalism-
| video-...
|
| But I think it's true that human intelligence has made us
| have a greater impact on the world, both for good and for
| evil.
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| A viable chance at getting off this rock.
|
| 500+ million years is a blink of an eye on a cosmic scale.
| Humans are the only species we've observed that has a
| viable chance or surviving on cosmic time scales; and we
| will likely bring other life along with us for that ride.
|
| Short of another human-equivalent species evolving, or a
| hyper resilient organism that can piggy back on space
| debris, humans are literally the only shot life on Earth
| has.
| stainforth wrote:
| Dinosaurs perished to become oil to power our technology,
| they deserve some credit.
| cgrealy wrote:
| > 500+ million years is a blink of an eye on a cosmic
| scale.
|
| How so? It's 1/8 of the lifespan of the planet and about
| 3.5% of the age of the _universe_.
|
| That is not "a blink of an eye", that's a pretty
| impressive innings by any definition.
|
| Humans will be lucky if we make 1 million years at this
| rate.
| bpizzi wrote:
| Well, according to the Big Freeze theory (seems to be the
| most probable) 500 million years is less than a blink of
| an eye when compared to the time the universe will
| consume until it cannot anymore.
| riffic wrote:
| > viable chance or surviving on cosmic time scales
|
| how incredibly arrogant.
| mindfulplay wrote:
| Why does that matter? Why are humans so special? I 'feel'
| like octopuses are the better candidate :) putting aside
| trivial human aspirations....
| squidlogic wrote:
| One response from the Christian tradition is that humans
| are creatures made in the image of God with rational,
| moral, and spiritual faculties. Other animals lack these
| faculties. Furthermore, we are decreed to be stewards
| over the created order by divine command.
| hyper_reality wrote:
| Christianity decrees its followers to be stewards over
| the created order, but outside of some small groups,
| there's no major tradition of vegetarianism in
| Christianity, nor any particular care for ecology and
| sustainability as is practiced in many other religions.
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| When they successfully escape earths orbit, get back to
| me.
|
| Until then, all odds are stacked against them. They're
| going to go extinct in an instant on a cosmic timescale.
| Unless, of course, humans choose to bring them along and
| save them from that fate.
| jbay808 wrote:
| I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but it's interesting to
| me that in our many hundred thousand year history as a
| species, the "point" of our intelligence (by your
| measure) wasn't even a suggestion until maybe 120 years
| ago, and only a dream until maybe 60 years ago. What are
| the chances?
|
| Perhaps a scholar in 320 AD would also have been
| surprised by how remarkable it was that the true purpose
| of human intelligence had only been so recently
| discovered.
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| Bingo.
|
| This is the chasm that needs to be crossed. Its not just
| the immediate advantage your species gets from
| intelligence. It's cultivating that to a point where you
| realize all life on this planet is default extinct. Then
| getting your species to the point where you even have a
| _chance_ of changing that default.
|
| Humans are still default extinct. We are on a path to
| changing that default.
| ancientworldnow wrote:
| No we're not, at best we're just changing the timeline.
| You're still either time bound by the death of the
| universe best case scenario or resource bound before that
| happens (if the universe can "end"). Extinction is
| inevitable at any timescale.
| hooande wrote:
| to follow up on the point above, how do you know that
| leaving earth is the only way to escape extinction?
| that's only what you can imagine given the technology
| available, just like someone living in 320 couldn't
| conceive of space travel.
|
| I agree that the ultimate purpose of any species is to
| continue to exist. I'm just skeptical because your
| definition of that is so related to modern science
| fiction
| wonderwonder wrote:
| If you like sci-fi, Children of Ruin by Adrian Tchaikovsky
| plays with this concept. It's the second book in a series
| though, first being Children of Time.
|
| Super imaginative and well written, I really liked them.
| amelius wrote:
| I wonder if animals are aware of their own mortality. How would
| you test this?
| Guest19023892 wrote:
| I imagine it's a very small number, likely including
| elephants and great apes. However, even I struggle to grasp
| the concept of my own mortality. I feel like most people are
| in the same situation. They can tell you they're going to die
| one day, like they're reciting lines from a book, but they
| don't seem to truly grasp what it means.
| bloak wrote:
| Elephants could easily be aware of their own mortality. They
| are social, long-lived, and have been filmed interacting in
| an interesting way with elephant bones. There was a nice
| article on elephants posted here:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828113
| ashika wrote:
| I've been wondering if their short lifespan is in any way
| related to cephalopods' recently discovered use of RNA editing
| techniques[1].
|
| [1] https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(17)30344-6
| ape4 wrote:
| Until clicking I didn't know if this was going to be a software
| product or an animal ;)
| pengaru wrote:
| On the subject of octopuses, Radiolab did a neat "octomom"
| episode that's worth a listen.
|
| https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/octom...
| esch89 wrote:
| My first concept of octopi as a highly intelligent species came
| from this essay: https://orionmagazine.org/article/deep-
| intellect/ Highly recommend it to anyone who likes these
| creatures.
| cipherzero wrote:
| Does their brain consciously drive the control of their cell
| pigment/color ability, or is it something more
| subconscious/reactive/instinctive? Seems like the brain has to be
| involved to coordinate...
|
| I wonder what the closest thing like that would be for humans?
| Would it be akin to me _thinking_ "i want to be more tan" and
| somehow my cells get the signal to be more tan?
|
| Obviously we will likely never know, but there is some leap here
| I wish we understood better. (Or do we and I'm just unaware?)
|
| Edit: thinking about it more... i don't know what happens when i
| think to "make a fist" and yet it happens, so maybe it is
| something more at that level...
| emteycz wrote:
| I think more like moving your body. You can do it when you want
| to, you can do it on autopilot with varying degrees and axes of
| control, or do it while asleep. You don't need to subvocalize
| it, you think more about the result, next intentions, etc.
| cipherzero wrote:
| Thanks! That does make sense, and it's entirely fascinating
| to think about!
|
| Does anyone know what this area of study is called?
| hadlock wrote:
| Look into cognition vs consciousness.
|
| A baby can feed themselves holding a spoon, but they lack
| object permanence (the ball went behind the couch, it's
| vanished from this universe forever), and certainly aren't
| aware of stuff like their own mortality, their favorite
| color, or if they even should have a favorite color, etc
|
| Child development is a lot more studied than I thought it
| was, and opens a lot of doors to exploring the answers to
| some of these questions.
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| FTA:
|
| > They live to be about four years old, with both males and
| females dying soon after breeding.
|
| > Highly intelligent creatures, giant Pacific octopuses have
| learned to open jars, mimic other octopuses, and solve mazes in
| lab tests.
|
| What would be the point of evolving to be so intelligent if the
| lifespan is so short. Seems strange to me.
| PopeDotNinja wrote:
| Hearing about the Giant Pacific Octopus always reminds me of the
| story about the guy who found a novel way to go Octopus hunting
| when hunting them was illegal.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/20/magazine/the-octopus-that...
| tmp538394722 wrote:
| I really enjoyed that article, thanks for sharing!
|
| A clarification: from what I can tell reading the article,
| hunting octopus was not illegal, but there were restrictions
| against big commercial style net and pot fishing of octopus.
|
| I liked how the article juxtaposed the (presumed good) hip
| locavore restaurant vs the (presumed bad) redneck that just
| wades in and engages in octafisticuffs.
| r00fus wrote:
| I still don't get why the article elevated what was essentially
| an illegal hunt by a teen idiot.
|
| Nothing novel about it. Just breaking rules and conventions to
| kill a creature for food.
| [deleted]
| aqme28 wrote:
| I think we read a different article. It made it clear it was
| a legal hunt by a teen who did some homework on it.
| r00fus wrote:
| Did you read the comments? The locals knew that octopus.
| The octopus was an attraction for nearby divers.
|
| He killed it and doomed its babies.
|
| The article was written by someone clearly amoral about the
| whole issue.
| mrmonkeyman wrote:
| He found a legal way to destroy a highly intelligent living
| organism for no f __* reason at all except his enjoyment.
| Nothing wrong with that.
| MLij wrote:
| There's a nice little Ted talk by David Gallo about life in the
| ocean. Most of it is about what cephalopods can do. It's really
| amazing:
| https://www.ted.com/talks/david_gallo_underwater_astonishmen...
| mapcars wrote:
| I wonder why people keep ignoring standards and use feets, pounds
| etc even on quite international resources. I understand it is
| convenient on local market to buy some food, but in this kind of
| scientific articles makes no sense to me.
| munificent wrote:
| _> even on quite international resources._
|
| By that, are you referring to _National_ Geographic? :)
| wenc wrote:
| I think you have a point. SI units should be at least in
| parentheses.
|
| Most science textbooks in the U.S. use SI units (as well as
| imperial).
| samatman wrote:
| It doesn't ignore standards.
|
| The imperial system of measurement is quite as exact as SI.
|
| It's... wacky, I'll grant you. But it is in fact a standard,
| promulgated by the National Institute of _Standards_ and
| Technology.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| LOL. It's an American publication, writing for an
| overwhelmingly American audience, so...
| fit2rule wrote:
| I love octopus. They are one of my top favourite life forms.
|
| Did you know that we are discovering they are a bit more social
| than we thought?
|
| https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/octopus-city-obser...
|
| How about these sleepy heads, eh?
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHR70lVy79Y
|
| One wonders just what sort of other crazy hijinx they get up to,
| personally .. I once watched a reef occy lure some dumb fish into
| his lair with an old crayfish carcass, it amused me for hours
| watching him/her lazy fishing from a hole ..
|
| If you ever find yourself in occy territory, i.e. on a tidal
| Rockpool, and you suspect there might be one in a hole somewhere,
| flash some coins and direct sunlight into the depths .. I often
| find they can't resist the opportunity to add some shiny to their
| middens ..
| amoorthy wrote:
| Highly recommend the documentary My Octopus Teacher on Netflix.
| Beautiful story of how a free diver forms a friendship of sorts
| with an octopus.
|
| Preview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s0LTDhqe5A
| sloshnmosh wrote:
| I also highly recommend My octopus teacher.
|
| Very beautiful and sad in a "circle of life" kind of way.
| cbsks wrote:
| > The size record is held by a specimen that was 30 feet across
| and weighed more than 600 pounds
|
| What?!? That's incredible! It would be so incredibly terrifying
| to see one of those in its natural habitat.
|
| I tried searching for more information about the largest one
| found, but I didn't find much. The only information I could find
| was that it was found on a beach in British Columbia. I was
| really hoping for a picture of it.
| locusofself wrote:
| I highly recommend the book "Other Minds", a fascinating and very
| accessible book about the octupus and cuttlefish. They are
| amazing creatures.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Other-Minds-Octopus-Origins-Conscious...
| epalm wrote:
| Great book.
| ortusdux wrote:
| Reminds me of octopus wrestling in the PNW back in the 60's.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_wrestling
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