[HN Gopher] rg3d: Rust 3D game engine with an FPS demo game and ...
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rg3d: Rust 3D game engine with an FPS demo game and scene editor
Author : adamnemecek
Score : 260 points
Date : 2020-09-18 15:15 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| BookPage wrote:
| This is awesome!!!! It would be cool if there were some binary
| releases, at least for the shooter example. I'm not sure if
| there's anything huge blocking that though?
|
| Also I'm admittedly not rust-proficient yet but would the cargo
| run command be cross-platform dependent, or is this a windows-
| only thing right now?
| TheDesolate0 wrote:
| `cargo` is like `make` but fancy. so `cargo build` is the same
| as say running `make`
|
| it is very much cross platform, and actually much easier to get
| working under GNU/Linux, *nix, or (ick) JobsOS.
|
| https://rustup.rs/ has the install scripts
| meheleventyone wrote:
| Wow, this is a lovely, pragmatic, no nonsense game engine! And it
| has a non-trivial example project and an editor! This is such a
| breath of fresh air for game engine announcements.
|
| I don't know if mrDIMAS is on HN but big congrats to him for this
| great project.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| I have alerted him of this post so he'll get your message.
| mrDIMAS wrote:
| Thanks a lot for the kind words!
| adamnemecek wrote:
| It's a really impressive project. Also check out the associated
| scene editor https://github.com/mrDIMAS/rusty-editor
|
| Check out the UI framework that it uses
| https://github.com/mrDIMAS/rg3d-ui
| angryredblock wrote:
| Agreed, this feature set looks like an incredible amount of
| work for a year.
|
| Interestingly it seems it started as a shooter game more than
| an engine -- explains why the feature set is tailored towards
| that.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| I agree. Dmitry used to work on tools at Larian (studio
| behind Divinity: Original Sin) so he had a decent amount of
| experience.
| j-james wrote:
| Particularly relevant: https://arewegameyet.rs/
| sabujp wrote:
| looking at the actual engine code, it's still all math and it
| looks like C++. The programming language here doesn't make the
| math easier to understand, example :
| https://github.com/mrDIMAS/rg3d/blob/master/src/renderer/sur... .
| Better to read some books on computer graphics math :
| https://foundationsofgameenginedev.com/#fged1
| canada_dry wrote:
| That example code is quite readable though. Are there any
| languages that make math more readable? Even purpose build code
| like matlab is about the same.
| detaro wrote:
| What are you responding to? Better for what?
| TrueDuality wrote:
| Wow, there are a lot of solid game engines coming out in Rust.
| Most are still pretty early, but it's really impressive how much
| of the gamedev community has such an interest in Rust.
| [deleted]
| swalsh wrote:
| What I love about this engine, is that I can really easily read
| the code and reason what it does. I'd guess that given an hour or
| so of study I would feel reasonably confident in trying to modify
| it.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| I agree, it's a really clean codebase.
| Eikon wrote:
| It's indeed very pleasing to read.
|
| I love rust but one pet peeve of mine is that projects can
| unfortunately get _very_ hard to follow / libraries very hard
| to use once too much generics start to get poured into.
| skohan wrote:
| Generics, and also heavy use of traits and macros can make
| code hard to follow IMO.
| mrec wrote:
| I can't quantify it, but I get the impression that the Rust
| community is starting to turn against unnecessary use of
| generics and proc macros of late, albeit largely because of
| their impact on compile/link times rather than readability.
| skohan wrote:
| I think macros are incredibly powerful when used
| parsimoniously, but can make code completely inscrutable
| and surprising when overused.
|
| There's probably an unavoidable trade-off between the
| flexibility and expressiveness of a language and
| readability (and possibly compile times). It's part of
| the reason I would recommend a more restrictive language
| like Go in a professional setting, even if I would rather
| program in Rust at home.
| Thaxll wrote:
| That's the case for most engine side project, they're a lot of
| C++ example like that. Once you start adding a lot of features
| its another story ...
| adamnemecek wrote:
| I think that Rust's features allow for cleaner code bases.
| Thaxll wrote:
| I don't see why Rust would be cleaner than modern C++
| codebase.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| Theoretically yes, practically it's a different story.
|
| Sure you can write clean modern cpp (the act of which is
| harder than writing clean Rust), but if your dependencies
| are still "C with classes", you are forced to particular
| patterns.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| FWIW some people -e.g. me :-P- consider "C with classes"
| much more readable than modern C++.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| I'm somewhere in the middle but then again, that's a Cpp
| problem.
| pjmlp wrote:
| While I agree, Rust also suffers from it, where " C with
| Classes" gets turned into "Rust with unsafe", although
| not required.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| Unsafe is not as big of a deal as people make it seem.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Using C alongside static analysis like Frama-C is also
| quite safe, one could say.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| It's not just safety though. It's just...all of it. I
| legit don't enjoy writing C. Rust is fun to write 90% of
| the time.
| keldaris wrote:
| That's a completely fair point, but very subjective.
| There are lots of people (myself included) who feel
| exactly the opposite way.
| estebank wrote:
| It's also not nearly as prevalent as people from outside
| the ecosystem seem to think it is. I read a lot of "any
| non-trivial Rust code will _have_ to use unsafe " and I
| guess that means that all of the code I've worked on is
| trivial.
| echelon wrote:
| C++ is incredibly verbose (STL) and carries a lot of
| baggage and mental overhead. Rust has improved ergonomics
| in nearly every area except lifetime handling, which is a
| concern you want to think about and make explicit.
|
| I predict in ten years the gravitas for new projects will
| have shifted entirely to Rust. C++ is just too much of a
| burden to write and verify. C++ will still have plenty of
| healthy projects, but I think it'll be hard to attract
| new projects when Rust has come so far.
| leetcrew wrote:
| c++ is a bit more verbose than rust. think about all the
| stdlib functions that take begin and end iterators for
| containers. there's an overload for std::set_difference
| that takes six arguments, five of them being iterators.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Ranges and fold expressions take care of that.
| leetcrew wrote:
| that's true and I am very excited for ranges. sadly I am
| still waiting for c++17 to be switched on in my build
| system :/
|
| still there's lots of other stuff that's more verbose in
| c++ than rust, often because it was bolted on much later.
| think about getting individual elements out of a tuple.
|
| in c++: `std::get<0>(tuple)` for each desired element or
| `std::tie(elt0, std::ignore, elt2) = tuple;`
|
| in rust: `tuple.0`, not sure if there's an equivalent to
| the std::ignore/std::tie combo
| pjmlp wrote:
| C++ has structured destruction now.
| Rusky wrote:
| Structured bindings work for simple cases, but Rust's are
| much simpler and more powerful.
| Rusky wrote:
| Ranges don't really exist yet.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| There is a lot more than just those two.
| pjmlp wrote:
| I was replying to the provided examples, more examples
| get more counterexamples.
| keldaris wrote:
| The same is also true of the author's previous engine [1],
| written in C99. Would love to get the author's take on the
| costs and benefits of switching to Rust on the basis of what's
| effectively a reasonably sized real world case study, at least
| as far as individual projects go.
|
| [1] https://github.com/mrDIMAS/DmitrysEngine
| mcintyre1994 wrote:
| This looks really impressive! Given that Rust -> WebAssembly is
| at least a thing, would it be plausible for someone to make that
| rusty-shooter demo work in a browser?
| mrDIMAS wrote:
| There is also a problem with rg3d-sound - it supports only
| Windows and Linux right now. So there will be no sound on other
| OSes. I've tried to add at least macOS backend by myself, but I
| failed all attempts to install macOS on virtual machine :(
| korpiq wrote:
| Hey what about someone donate a Mac to mrDIMAS? Might pay
| back =)
| brundolf wrote:
| The graphics code would have to be ported to WebGL, and then
| there might be an extra hurdle getting WASM to talk to WebGL
| directly. But it's doable, yes.
| steveklabnik wrote:
| https://rustwasm.github.io/wasm-bindgen/examples/webgl.html
| pjmlp wrote:
| References are almost in, by next year you can probably
| already talk directly to WebGL.
| kettlecorn wrote:
| Rust with WebGL is pretty seamless today.
|
| I wrote a game for a gamejam using Rust, Wasm, and WebGL
| without any engine: https://kettlecorn.itch.io/wonder
|
| It makes use of 'glow', a Rust library that lets you write
| regular OpenGL code that runs across desktop, mobile, and
| web: https://github.com/grovesNL/glow
| pjmlp wrote:
| Quite cool! This is the kind of stuff that might drive adoption
| among game devs.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| I doubt projects like this would help. For big developers,
| 99.99% of the time they are already riding on existing
| codebases (even when they call it by different names for
| marketing reasons) - the last two AAA games i worked at have
| codebases more than a decade old, one actually two decades old.
| While technically they could add rust as an extra language, in
| practice this wont happen both because the vast majority of
| game developers are conservative in terms of languages but also
| because it creates extra barriers (most people who write C++
| code in games barely know C++ - the wizkids that everyone has
| in mind when hearing about high octane game engines are a tiny
| minority compared to _everyone else_ who touches a game 's
| codebase) which make it harder to hire new people (unlike other
| disciplines in gamedev, decent programmers aren't as easy to
| find). Also everyone hates how slow C++ is to compile and last
| time i checked rust is even worse.
|
| For smaller developers projects like this still wont help drive
| adoption since smaller developers have the freedom to decide on
| their own what language they'd use (assuming they aren't
| already using an existing codebase, some of the stuff above
| also apply to smaller developers) and they'd already be using
| rust if they thought it'd help. In general i believe that
| developers who have enough knowledge to make their own engine
| in other languages and be able to make their engine in rust,
| would be able to tell if rust is a good choice or not.
|
| Or to put it in another way, i doubt projects like this will
| help drive adoption for rust among game developers because the
| developers have either already decided what language to use (be
| it rust or something else) or are not in a position to decide
| what language to use.
|
| (yeah sure, there might be an exception or two out there, but
| there are hundreds -if not thousands- of engines... after all
| Remedy, a AAA studio, used D in their engine yet you do not see
| much of an uptake of D among game developers even though
| technically D would be easier to grok by C++ programmers,
| integrate with existing engines with its C++ interop and even
| provides features like compile time code evaluation and
| generation for features that i've seen C++ projects use
| overcompilated macros and external build time generators that
| rely on brittle code comments to work)
| adamnemecek wrote:
| How would it not help? Someone might see this and realize
| that Rust is a viable game dev option and adopt it for their
| next game.
|
| In my experience, Rust is relatively fast on recompilation,
| possibly faster than C++.
|
| Rust is a much younger language so you have to wait.
| eggy wrote:
| I have started playing with Bevy [1], so I wonder how this
| compares from an ECS point of view?
|
| I am a beginner at Rust, so any insight would be appreciated.
| Thanks!
|
| Great to see gamedev taking off on Rust!
|
| [1] https://bevyengine.org/
| adamnemecek wrote:
| Bevy right now has little to show for itself besides a somewhat
| clean ECS api.
| eggy wrote:
| Yes, the full demo of this engine is enticing. Thanks.
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| The graphics looks like it's from 15-20 years ago. Modern game
| engines are so far ahead of this, rg3d has a lot of catching up
| to do.
| moth-fuzz wrote:
| I think this comment is slightly disingenuous, I think it's
| more obvious that the aesthetics of any game (let alone engine)
| will primarily depend on the quality of the Assets. If you
| loaded up these quake 3-era meshes and textures into Unreal
| Engine 4 or something else you'd call 'modern', I guarantee you
| they'd look the same or similar.
|
| The lighting isn't even that bad sans indirect illumination,
| which unreal only just got recently and Unity is losing due to
| Enlighten being shut down.
|
| This reminds me of people comparing open source software with
| proprietary software on account of aesthetics - it's not the
| licensing model, or the game engine, it's the presence or
| absence of artists that makes the difference.
| scollet wrote:
| Not to mention the low-poly and demake trends.
|
| The visual fidelity of a game is a moot argument and the
| quality of assets is subjective.
| swalsh wrote:
| I question how much of "modern" graphics (IE things you can get
| a PHD for) is a manifestation of the engine, and how much is a
| result of the underlying libraries being used, and the fancy
| shaders being written. I don't think it's unreasonable to
| believe an engine like this could catch up.
| smolder wrote:
| It seems like you're criticising the examples for being less
| than elaborate and mistaking that for a shortcoming of the
| engine. It's not some "easy game studio 2020"-type thing that
| should spit out pretty games with 10 lines of custom code, it's
| a basic engine that can be built upon.
| surfsvammel wrote:
| That might be true for the most cutting edge 3D shooters. But
| nowadays that's not all that matters. I'm sure this can find a
| niche.
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| I'm not talking about shooters. I'm talking about what it
| looks like. The lighting, specifically.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| That's something that can be improved.
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| That's an empty platitude. Almost anything can be
| improved.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| OK, look at how good of a foundation it is.
| mrDIMAS wrote:
| To be honest I'm not trying to implement "bleeding edge"
| renderer, it would just take enormous amount of time which
| can be put into other more important parts (there are
| plenty of them).
| cycloptic wrote:
| Have you considered collaborating with the author to
| improve the lighting? I'm sure they wouldn't mind help.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| It's a single person project. I haven't seen a more advanced
| rust engine. Adding better rendering isn't too bad once you
| have some engine architecture.
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| I have nothing against it, and it being a single person
| project.
|
| But the fact remains, it's far behind Unity, Unreal and
| Godot.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| You need to look at this as result/time. Godot has been
| around for six years, the others for much longer. This has
| been around for a year and again, it's a one person
| project. What do you expect?
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| Well, I'm talking from the point of view of a user. Why
| would I choose this engine over Godot, Unity, Unreal?
| Just because it's a single-person project?
| adamnemecek wrote:
| I don't know what to tell you. Don't? Why did people care
| about Godot in 2015 when Unity was around? For the same
| reason.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| Who asked you to choose this engine over Godot, Unity or
| Unreal? And why would others make a choice for you? Such
| a choice would only be up to you based on your own
| requirements, nobody else can make that choice.
|
| Also this post is really about showing off an engine made
| in Rust, a "hack" so to speak. You are in Hacker News
| where people post (usually technical) things that others
| might find interesting - but not necessarily useful.
| Consider we get posts about people writing software for
| retro computers, just for the fun of it.
| bitobserver wrote:
| With enough time and resources, I wonder if we'll one day
| see a Rust game engine that can outperform these projects.
| krapp wrote:
| Maybe, but you can already use Rust with Godot.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| Not the same.
| fsociety wrote:
| You're the one comparing it to Unity, Unreal and Godot.
| Everyone else is talking about game engines on Rust and how
| cool it is that this person built it.
| Ankhers wrote:
| Could this not just be a case of using something on hand /
| creating them relatively quickly and not a limitation of the
| engine itself?
| adamnemecek wrote:
| This project is what I would call data oriented, as discussed
| yesterday on hn https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24506744.
|
| It takes some parts of ECS but the UI is OOP-ish. I wonder if
| there is a good ECS UI architecture. I have been exploring this
| lately in Rust, and right now I have settled on jquery style
| selectors (don't laugh) where you have a generic entity builder
| and associate a selector (id + class list) with each entity. When
| an event fires, you check what selectors are associated with the
| focused entity and call the associated callbacks. I also do this
| for rendering. I'm not too crazy about this though. But I'm
| having a hard time figuring out how to do behavior composition in
| Rust.
| the_duke wrote:
| > I wonder if there is a good ECS UI architecture.
|
| orbtk [1] is based on ECS. I have not used it, so I can't
| comment on the the quality of the architecture.
|
| [1] https://github.com/redox-os/orbtk
| adamnemecek wrote:
| I am not crazy about orbtk. I don't think it's not quite ecs,
| and I'm not crazy about the overuse of macros.
| bronson wrote:
| Why?
| adamnemecek wrote:
| If you'd like to support the development of this engine, the
| author has a patreon https://www.patreon.com/mrdimas
|
| Unfortunately, Github sponsorships is not available in Russia.
|
| Also, there's a discord channel dedicated to the project
| https://discord.gg/xENF5Uh
| Narann wrote:
| What I like is that this engine actually have a demo which is
| more than few cubes and sprite: A full tiny game. Game engine
| should have more tiny games as it's a good way for newcomers to
| have something they can start to hack (change
| gravity/texture/lighting effects) and understand what a game
| engine is and how it work.
|
| The code is quite clean and it also provide scene editor with
| dedicated UI widgets.
|
| https://github.com/mrDIMAS/rusty-editor/
|
| https://github.com/mrDIMAS/rg3d-ui
|
| Truly impressive.
| [deleted]
| mrDIMAS wrote:
| The game and the editor are massively helps to find right
| approaches in development. All my previous attempts to write
| engines (in other languages) were bad because all they had is
| just some very simple demos with some meshes and lights. You
| never know which features engine should have until you need
| them. Many engines trying to have best possible graphics and
| does not pay attention to other very important things, like
| sound, animation, physics, resource management, save/load,
| editor, etc.
| submain wrote:
| As they say, you don't write an engine - you write a game,
| and the engine comes out of it. Impressive work!
| kleiba wrote:
| Not if you write Handmade Hero.
| [deleted]
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