[HN Gopher] Creativity Changes as We Age
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Creativity Changes as We Age
Author : pseudolus
Score : 133 points
Date : 2020-09-19 11:42 UTC (11 hours ago)
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| jl2718 wrote:
| This made me think about what I want to be doing on my deathbed
| versus what I'm doing now.
| DanielBMarkham wrote:
| I'm 55 and I just finished writing a couple of books. I felt that
| I had done so much and seen so many cool things that before I
| check out I owed the world a "book report", whether anybody
| wanted to read it or not. So I wrote a couple.
|
| I don't think I could have done that even ten years ago. There's
| a perspective you get, kind of a postmodernism, where you both
| understand the topics and the common ways of addressing them,
| then are able to move past that. I guess geniuses reach that
| point in their teens. It might take a bit longer for the rest of
| us :)
|
| There's a thing I see with younger tech authors where they don't
| want to admit it, but they're for the most part chasing fame.
| That's a different kind of creativity. I never was good at that
| and it hasn't gotten much better, either. Perhaps you need a good
| foundation in order to "bloom" eventually?
| alchemism wrote:
| I've seen discussion from time to time about there being two
| different types of genius which manifest at different ages.
| Especially as it applies to writers.
|
| https://qz.com/1606423/the-two-types-of-creativity-peak-at-v...
| ericmcer wrote:
| Interesting use of postmodernism. You are saying modern is now
| and "post" is being able to see beyond/around/through current
| notions?
|
| I think it works but postmodernism is a hotly discussed word
| that will break a reader from their flow. It definitely broke
| me out and made me think about how it could be applied here, so
| if that was your intent it worked. I always enjoy the tactical
| use of literary "flexes" like semi-colons, large words, etc.
| when they are done fully understanding their impact.
| ryanobjc wrote:
| I think he means postmodern in the common sense of the
| postmodern movement.
|
| Modernism was a architectural and philosophical trend that
| peaked in the 50s. It really got started a few decades
| earlier than that. Think of uniform apartment blocks:
| modernist architecture in action. It was a sense that we were
| finding the universal laws of everything and we could make
| things equal and fair via uniform architecture for example.
|
| Postmodernism was a critique of that and a deconstruction.
| Modernist ideas didn't work all the time and for everyone.
|
| If you're referring to "now" the word you can use is
| contemporary. Meaning "along side". This works for more
| things eg: "Albert Einstein corresponded extensively with his
| contemporaries." Or "I dislike contemporary architecture".
| ericmcer wrote:
| I was trying to be generous because if we use the literal
| interpretation of postmodernism what he is saying makes no
| sense. Or if you can explain how the
| modernist/postmodernist movements relate in the context of
| his post I would be glad to hear your interpretation.
|
| And my favorite simple way to define it is:
|
| modernism - post industrial revolution enthusiasm about
| humanity
|
| postmodernism - post ww2 depression about humanity
| ivalm wrote:
| Postmodernism in philosophy is associated with
| rejection/skepticism of common narrative (eg reject
| absolutism in Marxism/capitalism/etc). He claims he
| understands the common trends (in "infoops") and goes
| beyond them, which I guess is his justification for the
| word choice. I agree it feels more of a flex than an
| actual precise use of language.
| friendlybus wrote:
| Modernism was also an art movement rhat favoured idealism
| over realism and produced a variety of new styles.
| Pointillism used tiny dots of paint to generate different
| colours when viewed from a far. Similar to a pixel, and
| more beautiful. There was a move to abstractions like
| cubism and modrian went out of his way to show off the most
| basic components of a cow in the abstract. It spanned from
| the 1860s to the 1970s.
|
| OP's use of the word postmodernism doesn't really make
| sense, as a general rule. Many people get to the end of a
| topic and don't fall into questioning and desconstructing
| our modern and historical narratives. Many people can see
| an end to a topic and seek to add onto it or move on
| without destruction, a natural completion. Being done with
| the topic for life. Maybe OP is showing an affinity for
| stepping outside our normal social bounds for a new
| perspective via pomo and I don't think he meant that.
| tenaciousDaniel wrote:
| I don't have as many years as you, I'm 36, but I can already
| start to see what you're talking about. I started out life as
| an artist, getting a bachelors in fine arts and imagining that
| I'd be a famous painter. In reality, I just didn't have a good
| enough foundation in order to build something truly creative.
| You just have to have a lot of varied experiences to draw from.
| moron4hire wrote:
| I'm pretty sure becoming a famous painter has a lot more to
| do with who you know than what you know or do.
|
| I'm sorry, I didn't go to art school myself. I was alergic to
| art school culture, so I transferred to computer science. But
| I've been in and around lots of artist groups over the years.
| Even made a small business out of making installations for
| artists, for a short while. (That's a while other thing. Big
| Art artists often don't make their own things. They're more
| like producers or project managers than technicians).
|
| The one thing that struck as the big difference between the
| artists who were making it and the ones who were struggling
| was really just their social group. The ones who were making
| it came from rich families, knew art dealers, and were
| getting invited to the "popular" artist parties.
|
| At least, that was the case for "fine" art, artists selling a
| small number of high-value pieces. The other way to make it
| was to make a large number of populist pieces, for mass
| production, and then hustle hard on the craft fair circuit.
| If they could build a following that way and refine their
| process to cut costs to the bar minimum, then they could
| maybe explode selling online.
|
| But just going to art school, being really creative and a
| master of craft, and hoping someone will discover you...
| Never seen it happen.
|
| It's interesting, because I think it actually has a lot of
| parallels to open source software. You don't really get big
| in OSS by making a cool program. You have to market the shit
| out of it. And about the only way to do that in a way that
| OSS users aren't allergic to is networking on the public
| speaking circuit, knowing lots of other popular developers,
| getting them to use your software.
| friendlybus wrote:
| Maurizio Cattelan famous to for his satirical pieces like a
| banana taped to a wall and a solid gold toilet, was not
| born to a rich family. He also had no formal art training.
|
| Banksy did not rely on meeting people, quite the opposite.
|
| There's a documentary called the price of everything of a
| man who spent a decade with his wife in his secluded art
| studio producing a new art technique and came back in
| 2015-2016 to 'turn in his work' and made bank.
|
| There's more to art than nepotism.
| SirLuxuryYacht wrote:
| There's a _where the rubber meets the road_ aspect to
| each of these artists. What happened to Maurizio Cattelan
| between being born and duct taping that banana? Who did
| the man and wife turn their art into? It seems that these
| things did not just happen one day and then they became
| famous. Clearly they all knew someone who lit the
| marketing fuse. Could 've been a rich cousin or could
| have been someone on the street with a social media
| following.
| [deleted]
| Hoasi wrote:
| Those are perfect counterexamples. Although both these
| artists knew quite a bit about marketing and advertising,
| which is paramount in art, as noted by Warhol.
|
| > There's more to art than nepotism.
|
| Fortunately yes.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| > There's a thing I see with younger tech authors where they
| don't want to admit it, but they're for the most part chasing
| fame
|
| They'd see it as "making an impact [and standing to benefit
| from that]." Not casting judgment here. It's just that the
| motive really decides how you focus your time, which determines
| the outcome and the types of things you work on.
|
| HN seems to be preoccupied with this notion of whether
| something is relevant. Thing is, as you get older, that is less
| of a draw, as your life experience shows you how to evaluate
| things beyond what other people say about them.
| Babiker wrote:
| What are your books about and where can I check them out?
| patcon wrote:
| My curiosity was piqued, so I checked it out and found this
| really helpful [archived] wiki on the LeanPub page (and a
| nice video by David): http://web.archive.org/web/201904070357
| 22/https://wiki.info-...
|
| And David, good call on the price. I wouldn't respect anyone
| who would begrudge you the price of your most hard-won
| knowledge, esp when it sounds like you do consulting.
| DanielBMarkham wrote:
| - I am not here pushing books. In fact, you won't find a link
| in my feed
|
| - Although these books are meant to help people who develop
| technology, frankly I'm not interested in what the average
| developer has to say about them. I wouldn't have liked some
| of my conclusions either had I read about them 20 years ago
|
| - _I have deliberately priced my books to only sell to people
| interested and dedicated in reading them_ This is the only
| reason I 'm replying to you: I wouldn't want somebody else to
| go find the books and then start a flame war based on my
| price. If you can't afford it but are dedicated to learning,
| ping me. We'll work something out. Otherwise yeah, it's crazy
| high compared to the "Learn You Some Javascript in Five
| Hours" free YouTube-based courseware.
|
| https://leanpub.com/u/DanielBMarkham
| DataCrayon wrote:
| Have you found that people are willing to make the
| investment at that price?
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| I have to say, the preemptive defensiveness is quite a
| turn-off. Maybe you're replying to common, unfair
| complaints you've received in the past which have jaded
| you, but if you're going to take such an acidic route, you
| should just bite your tongue until you actually receive the
| comments you think you're replying to.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| The linked article is beautifully-written and thought-provoking,
| excerpted from "The Age of Creativity: Art, Memory, My Father,
| and Me" by Emily Urquhart.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Well it would be astonishing if creativity didn't change with
| age, considering that the brain can dramatically 'rewire' itself
| over time.
| katsume3 wrote:
| My creativity has certainly changed and I'm middle-aged. I find
| myself constantly trying to make everything as ergonomic as
| possible. Years of sitting in an office chair has warped my
| spine, which now means I have to take regular breaks every 15
| minutes or so to straighten out my back. In my early 20s I could
| go for long stretches in a chair, happily coding away doing
| 'sprints'. Now I've turned everything into a marathon, stretching
| out my work thinly over longer periods of time, paying attention
| to and mulling over details instead of glossing over them
| (something my younger self would do all day: gloss over
| everything and ignore nuance, yet still get things done)
| agumonkey wrote:
| could I rephrase it by instead of short term you can project
| long term and see how tiny papercuts would add up in the future
| ?
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I'm 58, and find I don't have the creative fluidity I had when I
| was younger (I was an artist[0], and a musician[1] -with bad
| hair), but I find that I have a _much_ more efficient and
| effective creative process.
|
| Basically, my younger creativity was Jackson Pollock; splashing
| around a lot, with few boundaries, and my current creativity is a
| bit more like a scrimshaw artist; carefully making each line
| count, in a restricted and prescribed manner and medium.
|
| A lot of the stuff I'm working on now, is stuff that just plain
| wouldn't have been possible -at all, when I was younger.
|
| Basically, I have a great baseline for getting stuff done. I may
| not have the wild forest of creativity I once had, but what I
| imagine does actually end up existing, and at a pretty good
| quality level, and, sometimes, at a pretty sizable scope.
|
| [0] https://littlegreenviper.com/cruft/ArtistWithBadHair.jpg
|
| [1] https://littlegreenviper.com/cruft/MusicianWithBadHair.jpg
| ducttapecrown wrote:
| The author is has a famous painter as a parent, has studied art
| history, and this article is an excerpt from their book on
| creativity of artists.
| mellosouls wrote:
| It's a very optimistic view, and may be true in some limited
| domains and individuals but generally speaking _groundbreaking_
| creativity (as opposed to the natural creativity within us all
| which declines gradually but doesn 't necessarily completely
| disappear as we age) is a property of the young, though it may
| vary from field to field.
|
| e.g. pop music, maths, poetry, physics, etc; you're done by 30.
| Writers/composers maybe another 10 years or so.
|
| I say that not to be negative, but to urge any young readers who
| feel they have a talent to not be complacent and assume they will
| be an exception, or that its related to family/financial/work
| commitments when you see the decline in your heroes and you will
| just avoid all that.
|
| Use it before you lose it!
| vmception wrote:
| I would not say there is a "generally speaking" absolute at
| all.
|
| We are trying to understand the cognitive nuances from the
| distribution of people that can be creative.
|
| You are reacting to a correlation, likely driven by changing
| obligations.
| codingdave wrote:
| The tendency for creativity to happen when you are young has
| little to do with being young, and far more to do with being
| fairly new to an area of work. Creativity peaks after a few
| years of practice, in almost every field, because when you
| start out you do not know enough to be creative... and after
| some number of years, you get set in your own personal ways of
| practicing your work/art. There is a peak between those two
| points when you know enough to be competent, but aren't yet set
| in your personal ways and styles. Yes, many people hit that
| peak when they are young. But they also hit that peak when they
| are older, and try something new.
| kirse wrote:
| _you get set in your own personal ways of practicing your
| work /art_
|
| I always see my creativity taper off when I stop paying close
| attention and I stop practicing the fundamentals. I think #1
| gets harder because our downtime for reflection is often
| saturated by the busyness and distractions of life, and #2
| gets harder because of physical aging in general.
|
| Either way, the brain is creative in the same way the heart
| is for circulating blood. Continue shoveling in raw materials
| to the furnace of the mind and it will continue to faithfully
| churn out novel concepts.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| As a mathematician-turned-programmer-later-turned-writer,
| writing after 40 seems to be fairly productive. The quality
| decline seems to start at about 60-65 years of age, and might
| be avoidable if you can keep your brain healthy. Every single
| writer or journalist I know whose output started to decline
| exhibited signs of creeping dementia.
|
| Mathematics is a young people game, though. Very rare to push
| out significant results after forty.
| pier25 wrote:
| Even if that was true (I don't think it is) there is no point
| in reminding people that time is running out.
|
| I was the most productive in music and painting during my 20s
| but I lived with the constant angst that I was running out of
| time and needed to get results as soon as possible. This was
| totally counterproductive. I understand now to produce better
| art you need to be totally focused in the process, and not the
| end result, or even worse, the consequences of the end result
| (fame, criticism, etc).
| mellosouls wrote:
| I agree with the latter part, but even worse to be complacent
| or ignorant of a time limit.
|
| A pragmatic compromise to acknowledge it and manage your
| limited time in a psychologically healthy way.
| lnsru wrote:
| Here you go: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/lists/nobel-
| laureates-by-a...
| alextheparrot wrote:
| This isn't particularly interesting as a counterpoint, as
| there's a known lag between creativity and recognition. To
| take the easiest example, Einstein published his awarded idea
| at 26, but he wasn't awarded until 42.
| auggierose wrote:
| That's when they got the prize, not when they did what they
| won it for.
| mellosouls wrote:
| Is that supposed to back or counter my claim?
|
| I haven't dug in, just noticed it's age at the time of award,
| not time of achievement.
|
| Eg Einstein early 20s for most of his stuff, early 30s for
| GR. Awarded in his 40s.
| lnsru wrote:
| As you can see, people get award in rather old age. Not
| many geniuses in their thirties, that made great
| achievement in their twenties.
| pseudolus wrote:
| The reference to William Utermohlen and his ongoing deterioration
| after his diagnosis with Alzheimer's is particularly poignant. He
| painted numerous self-portraits up to the point where apparently
| he could barely recognize his own face. His work is a vivid
| testament to the depredations that Alzheimer's inflicts upon
| creativity. [0] A bullet we should all hope we can dodge until an
| effective treatment is found.
|
| [0] https://www.boredpanda.com/alzheimers-disease-self-
| portrait-...
| feoren wrote:
| Am I the only one who reads some homoerotic fan-fiction about
| Michaelangelo passed off as insight, and an unskeptical
| recounting of a medium "revealing" something about a late artist
| passed off as fact, and decides that this writer clearly has
| absolutely nothing useful to say? Who would take such drivel
| seriously?
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Please consider that the OP represents an artist's personal,
| semi-poetic reflections. Whence the vitriol?
| feoren wrote:
| Personal, semi-poetic reflections based on wild over-
| speculation and an erroneous understanding of the world is
| fine for a diary, but this is on Hacker News with the title
| "Creativity Changes as We Age", alongside actual scientific
| studies and sound, fact-based reasoning. This person knows
| nothing about the science behind creativity, or really
| anything about science at all.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| Possibly a bit off topic, but I read this submission last night
| (and gave it the first upvote) because today is my 50th birthday.
| I am a software engineer that has followed a somewhat
| unconventional path, but have enjoyed my career passionately. I
| have told myself that turning 50 is no big deal because it's just
| another arbitrary day, and 99+% odds I'm well past half dead
| already. But, because others around me keeping making a big deal
| out of it, it's hard to not get caught up in some transcendental
| introspection.
|
| If you're well past 50 (approaching 60 or beyond), what would you
| tell your 50 year old self and peers?
| WalterBright wrote:
| > If you're well past 50 (approaching 60 or beyond), what would
| you tell your 50 year old self and peers?
|
| Buy AMZN.
| patrec wrote:
| Strange that the author does not mention Japan's greatest visual
| artist, who by his own (and others') reckoning only became truly
| great in his old age. Although there are many examples of great
| artists who do great, and novel, work late in life, I cannot
| think of another major artist who peaked that late.
|
| _From the age of 6 I had a mania for drawing the shapes of
| things. When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But
| all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering
| with. At 75 I 'll have learned something of the pattern of
| nature, of animals, of plants, of trees, birds, fish and insects.
| When I am 80 you will see real progress. At 90 I shall have cut
| my way deeply into the mystery of life itself. At 100, I shall be
| a marvelous artist. At 110, everything I create; a dot, a line,
| will jump to life as never before._
|
| Unfortunately he only made it to 90.
| mkl wrote:
| Well, you didn't mention them either...
|
| The quote is from Hokusai Katsushika, the artist behind the
| famous Great Wave print: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokusai
| https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/314154-from-the-age-of-6-i-...
| lostgame wrote:
| Great article, but in no way surprising. Look at a band like the
| Beatles; and watch their creative progression over time.
| jedimind wrote:
| On a related notion, I can only recommend "The Courage to Create"
| by Rollo May. It's a fantastic work on the nature of creativity.
| CharlesW wrote:
| Thank you for the recommendation! I can also recommend "The War
| of Art" by Steven Pressfield.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/War-Art-Steven-Pressfield-ebook/dp/B0...
| incanus77 wrote:
| I have never felt as creative in my life as I do now in my early
| 40s.
|
| I think the best way I can describe it is that it changed for me
| from my 20s, where I was driven by what I wanted to do -- the end
| result -- and along the way, would pick up the knowledge needed.
|
| It's similar now, but it's more driven by what I can learn along
| the way and how I can connect it to everything else. Experience
| has shown me that more things are related than you think. And I
| feel like drawing these connections has made me think across
| disciplines and to try to connect things in multiple ways during
| the process, which has the side effect of creative solutions or
| accidental findings along the way.
|
| I have dozens of pages of notes and snippets and am constantly
| adding -- things I could make, topics I want to learn about. The
| amount can be overwhelming, but it's also liberating to write
| them down so that I can move on, and I feel like even doing that
| sort of validates that I'm "being creative" and keeping juices
| flowing.
|
| Don't get me wrong -- these are not world-changing ideas. But
| I've found that letting those flow has let little solutions or
| ideas here and there flow easily in the midst of bigger problems.
|
| It also helps to have internalized the idea that the value is in
| the execution, not the idea. This is typified by a client who
| wants you to sign an NDA to hear about what their idea even is.
| That's a red flag that they think the golden egg is the idea
| itself and not the months or years, as well as discipline in
| saying no to a million little things, that will bring a good
| version of that idea to life.
| pier25 wrote:
| > _my 20s, where I was driven by what I wanted to do -- the end
| result --_
|
| I totally understand what you mean here.
|
| In my early 20s I was into electronic music and I wanted to
| make music like my idols. I was really more in love with the
| idea of doing it, or the end result, than the actual act of
| doing it. Because of that, I didn't really know anything about
| synths, synthesis, playing an instrument, etc. Which,
| ironically, are the fundamental skills needed to be able to
| actually do the damn thing.
|
| Maybe if I had had someone to guide me it would have been
| different. Most of my friends were in rock bands, and those who
| were into electronic music production were just as lost as me.
| These days with Youtube it's a lot easier, everyone sharing
| their tricks and techniques.
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